Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0

[GHNeko]

Personally, I just think SHDL needs to be made less effective. It's a tactic that's easily twarted, even if you are large/heavy with stage counterpicks. I'm not seeing enough validity to support a permanent change as large as this, which is way more game-changing than the shine or Fox's new JC shine. :V

 

[Bandit]

If you guys are interested, I just posted up in the Zelda boards team vidz of Me and Thunderhorse. They are located in the 2nd OP. We faced Chu, Meep, G-Reg, JCaesar, Tantalus and Waffle. Enjoy!

:bandit:

 

[Sneak8288]

shdl is no where near as good as in melees lasers. In every sense. Camping, combos, approaching everything. Shdl is very easy to get by when close. Like hostility said with a majority of the cast you can just dash attack on reaction when you see the first laser. With metaknight thats like half the stage. The thing is, people dont know how to deal with it yet. They are getting too frustrated and arent testing to find simple ways to get through it. The thing about shdl is that falco can barely move once he starts. He has to commit once he starts the first laser. In melee a lot of characters can run up shield the laser then do an aerial out of shield to outspace the lasers or beat a follow up.
People are trying to do that in brawl+ and are crying nerf when it doesnt work. b+ shdl =\= melee SHL. You have to deal with them differently. Keep gaining ground and punish if he lasers. Some said well once they get in close you can just use falcos good ground game. Well thats true but that means falco isnt camping anymore. He simply made you approach him, thats a big difference people fail to see.
The side b issue is real though. It neglicts any stage you made up when approaching and some characters simply cant stop it without being completely psychic. People complain nerfing it will make it so he wont have a recovery. He will have a recovery, it just wont be nearly as free to get back on the stage. If falco chooses to camp he has to give up stage to do it. Giving up stage means he is closer to the ledge. Close to ledge means higher chance of getting edge guarded. In my mind thats how it should be. Falco should pick his spots on when to be defensive and offensive. Not have it so he HAS to be aggressive or HAS to be defensive.

I think if any nerf is made to falcos side be it should be the lag upon the landing. If there was enough lag on it the it could be punished when shielded i doubt it would be a problem and it also wouldnt hurt his recovery either

 

[GHNeko]

Speed up the ending animation of Side B so that it enters hard landing lag alot earlier?

:V

 

[Shell]

Personally, I just think SHDL needs to be made less effective. It's a tactic that is easily twarted.

Those two things don't add up.


I also agree with Zodiak that nerfing his Illusion wouldn't be the insta-death some have made it out to be.

I stand by my previous statement that we should implement PS-reflect (if we're going to) before we make any changes to the lasers. With that said, regardless of whether SHFFLasers would be as effective (at least) or more effective (likely) than SHDL, I think they certainly could be more interesting tactically, and are worth giving a test now that PSA has probably made it possible.

 

[GHNeko]

Those two things don't add up.

Okay. Not so easily. :V

But the complaints about it are...

1: E-z mode tactic
2: Imbalances match up ratios singlehandedly.

 

[leafgreen386]

Okay. Not so easily. :V

But the complaints about it are...

1: E-z mode tactic
2: Imbalances match up ratios singlehandedly.

And you're yelling at me for supporting melee style lasers? You realize that melee style lasers would rectify these two problems more than anything else? They require more strategic placement and use to be effective, thus taking care of point #1. For point #2, melee style lasers would hurt falco in matchups where SHDL greatly tips the balance in his favour, but it would help him in matchups where he was already having trouble. It's an amazing balancing point imo.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Leafgreen is a scholar and a gentleman. I couldn't have said it better myself.

So far none of the balance tweaks to SHDL other than putting in Melee lasers seem to be practical. Shell's approach is the best way to go about the situation, I believe. Even regardless of reflection PSing being available or not, it's still worth at least a test. I think it'll work brilliantly.

 

[Nybb]

So, any word from the purple-names (or anybody else in the know) on whether or not implementing SHL is possible? And if so, what do we need to do to make it happen? Once again, I'm not saying we should just go ahead and put this in permanently, I just think that a test build should happen as soon as possible so the issue can be better debated and hopefully resolved.

 

[kciD]

Ok so I finally played Brawl+ against one of my buddies last night, and I'll say Falco+ is my main so far. He's fast, combos well, and the shield right now is awesome...and certain percentages shield>bair is a killer. I almost think he's overpowered.

BUT

He gets combod SO easily with the hitstun, it makes up for it. Either that or ZSS combos too easily, because that's who my friend mained. I think I saved a couple of vids, I'll post eventually. If Falco is really that easily combod by anyone, I think this makes up enough for this power and speed that he's pretty balanced.

I haven't read much in this thread, I just thought I'd post my opinion so far and I'll try to get a few vids up soon.

 

[GHNeko]

Lolwat.

Falco wrecks Zamus. >_>

 

[kciD]

Well...again this was my (and his) first time playing Brawl+ so I had some getting used to. I need a LOT of work in the DI department, because I'm still in the habit of dodging into my opponents moves...which doesn't happen now because of hitstun.

Zamus combo'd the **** out of me, sometimes from 0 to 60%. Again, I have a DI problem, so that didn't help. Plus my friend has a mean Zamus, vBrawl and Brawl+.

Again I'll get some vids up eventually...right now my camera is broken and I don't have the hardware to record it from the TV to my computer. Or the money to get it.

Since no one's posted here in a while, I'll edit this.

I played again the other night with a lot more success. I'm getting a few more combos down, although I think I'm using Dair too much...I just LOVE hitting it, though. The SHDL is amazing. I like to SHDL>reflector>Bair. Works nice at certain percents. This might even work after a Dthrow.

 

[shanus]

I'm making a working verion of FF lasers with a SHL instead of SHDL, I'll have a version for you guys to test once its more polished.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I jizzed in my pants.

10good****Ijustcames

 

[shanus]

I need to finish up polishing up the frame speed changes, but now I have the FF laser function working properly.

 

[Dan_X]

I jizzed in my pants.

10good****Ijustcames

Yeah, I'm pretty surprised FF lasers are already here. I was expecting it to be more difficult.

I need to finish up polishing up the frame speed changes, but now I have the FF laser function working properly.

Shanus, that's awesome!

I'm not going to lie, at first when I heard about removing SHDL I was quite irate, and rather bent-out-of-shape. I had one of those attitudes that said "forget it... I'll stop playing Falco if you do this." lol. Talk about stubborn...

Anyway, I'm very much in favor of Melee style lasers now, I'm allowing myself to be more open, to let Brawl+ become the best that it can! in thinking about it, and from reading, I realized that SHSL will actually help some of Falco's poor matchups, and at the same time it will help characters that were too easily walled before, a double-edge sword, two birds with one stone.

Initially, the reason I was against the removal of SHDL is because that's all I know of Falco, I never played him in Melee, in fact, in those days I was a scrub anyway... Either way, I have no personal experience playing Falco at a high level in Melee as such I thought it would ruin him in Brawl+. I'm far from that point-of-view now.

Here's what I'd like to see done to the SHSL:

•FFable (kinda has to be)... the landing lag should almost be near nothing
•DIable (for obvious reasons-- it will add more technique into his laser game... making it less generic)
•Laser damage bumped back up to the original 3dmg.

In addition, I wanted to see what you other Falco mains thought of his current shine. I obviously like it, heck, I'd say it's nearly perfect, save for the lower hitbox size. My problem is that the animation appears to be touching the enemy yet the hitboxes don't fit the size of the animation so the enemy is left unscathed. I find this to be rather aggravating, as the shine can be inconsistent. This is most noticable on smaller enemies who are crouching and/or crawling. The animation touches them, but the hitbox doesn't. The shine is already more punishable as is, with the increased end lag, the last thing it needs is to miss enemies that it otherwise should have hit (as it looked as though it hit them anyway). You shouldn't be able to stand infront of the Shine and press down and be safe, it doesn't make sense, it's not a thin projectile like his laser, the shine is huge, it should actually connect. As an addendum, this issue helps characters who already had good matchups on Falco. For example, Squirtle can already crouch/crawl beneath his lasers, yet he can also avoid the shine near accidentally as well. It's just plain stupid.

What do you guys think about this? I think the shine should, at the very least, be to the exact scale of the shine animation.

 

[JCaesar]

I'm not going to lie, at first when I heard about removing SHDL I was quite irate, and rather bent-out-of-shape. I had one of those attitudes that said "forget it... I'll stop playing Falco if you do this." lol. Talk about stubborn...

Hmm I vaguely remember an angry wall o text aimed at me for even bringing it up in the nightly builds thread...

Well I'm glad to see at least somebody is willing to open their mind around here. Very little of that going around lately. The arguments in the nightly builds thread lately have mostly consisted of "Your side is stupid" or "Your side sucks at smash" and neither is willing to budge an inch.



I can't wait to try the new Falco. I was a Falco main in Melee (well, I was a G&W main at heart, but that's beside the point). One of the things I loved about Falco was how he was always "in control" because of how quick in the air he was (vertically). Brawl and even Brawl+ Falco have always felt so sluggish and bleh, so I couldn't stand to play him. Part of it is how slow his jump and fall speed are in comparison to Melee, but a large part of it is the fact that he couldn't even FF lasers. I'm looking forward to this.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I need to finish up polishing up the frame speed changes, but now I have the FF laser function working properly.

Is it possible to put it in a test build for us once you're finished? I'm very ecstatic to try out the new SHFF Lasers.

Stuff about shine

I see what you're trying to say, and I think it would be nice if only to have a hitbox that matches the animation correctly. However an increased shine hitbox would improve his zoning game considerably and Falco has probably had enough buffs as is. If we do implement this, it should probably be with a nerf to accompany it, such as moving the phantasm hitbox back or something with his jab combo. My stance is pretty much neutral though, I won't argue against it nor will I take up arms for it, so if it gets in, then ok.

With FF SHLs, I feel Falco is ready to go gold barring some extreme mechanic/physics change.

Of course, subjectively speaking, I completely support hitboxes that match their animation size (grrr Snake's tilts/G&W's dsmash/7-10 PK Flash) .

I was a Falco main in Melee

ilu <3

(well, I was a G&W main at heart, but that's beside the point).

wow fu

 

[Dan_X]

Hmm I vaguely remember an angry wall o text aimed at me for even bringing it up in the nightly builds thread...

Yeah, about that, I'm sorry. haha. I do recall such a post as well.

Is it possible to put it in a test build for us once you're finished? I'm very ecstatic to try out the new SHFF Lasers.

Yeah, I'd like to test it as well. I'm going to hold off on playing Falco until this change is implemented, as there's no point to further practicing Falco in his current light as he's so close to being tweaked. :D

I see what you're trying to say, and I think it would be nice if only to have a hitbox that matches the animation correctly. However an increased shine hitbox would improve his zoning game considerably and Falco has probably had enough buffs as is. If we do implement this, it should probably be with a nerf to accompany it, such as moving the phantasm hitbox back or something with his jab combo. My stance is pretty much neutral though, I won't argue against it nor will I take up arms for it, so if it gets in, then ok.

With FF SHLs, I feel Falco is ready to go gold barring some extreme mechanic/physics change.

Of course, subjectively speaking, I completely support hitboxes that match their animation size (grrr Snake's tilts/G&W's dsmash/7-10 PK Flash) .

I truly think it only makes sense for the hitbox to match the animation. It SHOULD have been that way in the first place. As I said, even the person being grazed by the shine expects to be inflicted by it as it touched them. It doesn't make sense for it to miss them when it touches them. It's their fault for poor spacing, or failure to block. I really don't think Falco needs any nerfs to accompany the hitboxes making sense with the animation. As it is, in the future the phantasm probably won't sweetspot the ledge unless perfectly aimed... it will be vulnerable if you mess up, I think that's enough of a set-back to his phantasm. It's his most important recovery, his firebird is pretty near trash. If a change to his illusions hitboxes must happen, I wouldn't detest it, but, would it be a necessary trade to make the hitboxes of his shine make sense? Do we even need to trade?

P.S. oh yeah.. I made a mistake in talking about the shine's end lag. I meant to say that the start-up lag has been increased, not the end lag. oooooops.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Do we even need to trade?

We are a rational group of mains that understand that Falco is extremely viable as is. We don't need to clamor for all the buffs we can get when the character in question is great as is.

We're not Ness+ mains after all XD. Let's try to keep our dignity.

 

[JCaesar]

Yeah, about that, I'm sorry. haha. I do recall such a post as well.

We're cool <3. I never hold grudges or take stuff said on teh interwebz too seriously.

Having said that, it's time to disagree with you again

Fixing shine's hitbox is a buff, plain and simple. Anytime you make a move work better than it did before, it's a buff. It doesn't matter what it was "intended" to do. All that matters is how it works now compared to how it would work after the fix, and it would obviously work better, thus Falco would be a better character.

But since Falco is already arguably top 10, any buff (including fixing a broken move) should go hand in hand with a nerf. That's the bottom line.

We're not Ness+ mains after all XD. Let's try to keep our dignity.

Well said

 

[Dan_X]

We are a rational group of mains that understand that Falco is extremely viable as is. We don't need to clamor for all the buffs we can get when the character in question is great as is.

We're not Ness+ mains after all XD. Let's try to keep our dignity.

This is true, lol. Though this move would be a buff, it's not so much a buff as it is a move in the direction of making something make sense.

I'd be find with his illusion being altered. The catch is, seeing as how it's his most significant recovery option, I don't want it to become a joke--- which I know wouldn't happen anyway as the people making the changes are rather competent. lol. Basically, I'd be fine if the window for hitting Falco out of his illusion was larger, but not the the point where it's to easy, rendering the illusion useless.

If a trade is in need, how do you think the illusion should be changed to merit the trade off?

EDIT:

We're cool <3. I never hold grudges or take stuff said on teh interwebz too seriously.

Having said that, it's time to disagree with you again

Fixing shine's hitbox is a buff, plain and simple. Anytime you make a move work better than it did before, it's a buff. It doesn't matter what it was "intended" to do. All that matters is how it works now compared to how it would work after the fix, and it would obviously work better, thus Falco would be a better character.

But since Falco is already arguably top 10, any buff (including fixing a broken move) should go hand in hand with a nerf. That's the bottom line.



Well said

Well put. That's basically what Thunderhorse just said. In that case, what do you think would make for a realistic trade off? Would you think it rational to nerf illusion a bit, as it's pretty safe as is? Or would you say that's going too far? What do you think?

 

[Rudra]

Cant wait for Melee styled lasers!

As for the Shine, while increasing its hitbox size to match the animation would be a buff, I wouldnt mind it being implemented at the cost of the Phantasm's increased vulnerability.

(though, I had always wondered if that was supposed to be an intentional nerf from a reason having something to fo with CF's Sweetspot Knee not hitting him out of it while a flubbed one does? idk.)

I had also thought of this awhile ago: instead of having the shine's "draw in" Hitbox extended, why not make the outer part another entirely different hitbox to mimic its vBrawl counterpart? (but make it better by pushing the opponent further outward?) It would be interesting to be able to chose to push the opponent outward or inward depending on your spacing with two different hitboxes. I personally think the Shine is fine as it is now though.

 

[Dan_X]

I had also thought of this awhile ago: instead of having the shine's "draw in" Hitbox extended, why not make the outer part another entirely different hitbox to mimic its vBrawl counterpart? (but make it better by pushing the opponent further outward?) It would be interesting to be able to chose to push the opponent outward or inward depending on your spacing with two different hitboxes. I personally think the Shine is fine as it is now though.

You know, this isn't the first time this idea has been brought up, and after having thought about it more, I think it could be really interesting.

If something like this were to be treated, it should be done so very carefully. For one, pulling in is generally far more rewarding than pushing away, so it'd have to work in such a way that you can space it properly and have it work very consistently. After fixing the scale of the hitboxes, so that they match the size of the animation, I have a few ideas along your own.

For one, I think that this idea would be best implemented if the pushing away hitbox acted more as a tipper, only appearing at the very end of the shine's animation at the tip of the hexagon closest to the enemy. Because it would be harder to land, and space, there should be some reward for landing it. The tipper should be something that you strive for if the enemy is off stage. Connecting with the enemy shouldn't be easy, as the hitbox should be a tiny tipper, but if properly spaced, and you do land the tipper, the enemy should be pushed back at a downward angle putting them in a poor position. Heck, it could even be enough to kill if they're sent far enough away at an angle.

This is a neat idea in that it will add another layer of depth to the shine. I'm not entirely sure how hitboxes work, I wouldn't want it to always be present, so that it always pushes the enemy away, I'd want the hitbox to come out at the end of the animation, just before the shine returns to Falco. If you know that the tip of the hexagon at the end of the animation is the tipper hitbox, and you practice, you can get the hang of how to space to land it. This would come in handy for punishing poor recovery attempts.

All in all, this isn't necessary, but it's an interesting idea at the very least. Rudra, what do you think of this? Also, what do the rest of you guys think of this?

 

[Rudra]

I like it
10Marths

 

[Sneak8288]

this will make falco ****... harder... then he will get nerfed

 

[Rudra]

Well, it isnt a necessity (the outer hitbox effect) so it may be dropped, but it might be fun to test it out =3. As for the Shine's hitbox size increase, if we try it out (and come up with a decent tradeoff for it if necessary) it could make it even better. I'm already content with how it is now, but I personally wouldnt mind messing with its size and effects (in regards to the outer hitbox).

 

[Thunderhorse+]

It seems like something that would be really interesting to have fun with, and I'm really intrigued by the idea. However, I don't think it's something that'll make its way into the official builds, and I'm very much ok with that. If by some miracle demand for it becomes high enough to warrant it being added, it would have to come with a series of nerfs. Either way, it's still a very neat concept just to play around with in your head, especially since it caters to Falco's strong zoning game.

As for how the hitboxes would be structured, I imagine there's a way to recreate the effect on Link's dtilt to have one hitbox (the flub hitbox in vBrawl) override the other one, even when both connect (in this example, the spike hitbox). Only for this reflectors' case, it would probably be the drawing in hitbox (the current inner hexagon hitbox for the shine) overriding the pushing away vBrawl hitbox when both connect (the outer hexagon hitbox that encompasses the range increase Orca was proposing). Obviously when you 'think' the outer hitbox would be connecting (and would be if the hitbox enlargement was actually put into effect), the shine would push away, as only the outer hitbox would be connecting without the interference of the inner, pulling in hitbox.

Anyway, this is all purely for fun personally. I'm not going to push for it because Falco is great enough as is. If this does somehow get implemented, Falco deserves to take a number of nerfs with it.

EDIT: actually, on second thought, if the nerfs were severe enough, I might actually back the idea. Unlike the original proposal of simply enlarging the hitbox size, which really does nothing for Falco other than make it easier to strike with the reflector, the differing hitboxes do add a new layer to Falco's game, which I've always supported (hence why I backed the original shine change and the Melee SHL change). But I'm unwavering in the fact that Falco will need significant nerfs to balance this. I'm talking keeping Falco lasers at 2% damage even with Melee SHLs, moving the hitbox of the phantasm back, something to make the jab combo less gay, and an overall damage reduction in his attacks (with KB compensation, though still making it so that he out damages Fox on a move-by-move basis). At the very least.

 

[Dan_X]

My point is... If there's any chance that the shine would push and not pull it should be rare in comparison. Pulling is generally always more useful than pushing. The only time pushing would be nice is if the enemy was trying to recover. Either way, a tipper for his shine is something that really doesn't need to be implemented. It'd be un to test, but it may end up being more aggravating than it's worth. If for example it would push when you were expecting a pull it'd be increasingly aggravating.

The only change for the shine that's ACTUALLY warranted is fixing the hitboxes to match the animation. As a tradeoff for this the illusion could be nerfed a bit.

 

[Dan_X]

Thunderhorse, I just saw your post now, I agree. It'd be fun, but it isn't needed by any stretch. I just want the scale of the hitboxes to match the animation of his current shine.

 

[Glick]

Well. there are two ways to look at this change. Falco can shoot less lasers but has more control over where they go. It invites more thoughtful and more skillful usage of the laser.

Even though everybody says any change is a buff. That's not necessarily true.
This change reminds me of the fox change.

It's a change but it has its ups and downs. The reason that fox change was made was to decrease the easymode-ness of fox. And it worked. I see myself putting a lot more work into playing fox because now I have to dair--->shine--->up smash and I have to reverse my up tilts out of dairs and it leaves a lot more room for error. And in exchange for his dair nerf he got a shine, which adds some tech and mixes fox up a little to make him less "easy mode comboer" and turns him into a more interesting character.

With falco they are just changing it so it pulls B+ away from easy mode. I mean, let's face it. Falco is easy mode. Compared to other characters he is WAY easier to **** with. So this change is totally necessary. I don't see why people are complaining. If anything this makes a high level falco have more stage control. And promotes more thoughtful use of lasers.

Sorry I feel like I repeated myself like 10 times just now.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Well I had this really long speech about the increased hitbox/double hitbox shine over AIM qith quinnydinny, and after I thought about it awhile, I thought it'd be a very cool addition. Because I'm too lazy to type up a more eloquent and in-detail version of it (and because it was long as hell as is), I'm just going to go ahead and copypasta (reformatted to look nicer for forum viewers).

As an aside, I completely forgot that I also was looking for (if we really did decide to implement that double hitbox shine) making the pull-in hitbox smaller, as to provide another tiny minuscule nerf to what it it was before (you won't be comboing it into anything at the same length as before), but mostly to provide more control over which hit type you want.

Anyway, here it is.

Falco has always been about zone control, just as much as Fox is a rushdown character and is centered around getting in and never letting up. [...] Falco, as you know, has a wonderful long range game, with lasers and phantasm, though most people don't realize his CQC game is great too with the jab combo being just as much a centerpiece to Falco as the lasers.

His weak point, however, is the middle range I.E. where characters like Marth feel the most comfortable in. All Falco can do is throw out his shine at midrange, a punishable attack originally. The new shine remedies it to a certain degree by bringing Falco's opponent into CQC range (but mostly I supported it because it really deepened his combo game, and by extention was an incentive to be aggressive with him rather than just pew pew pew all day). And 'control' is why partially why I spoke for Melee SHLs as well, though again the primary reason was something else I.E. making some of Falco's matchups not so one-sided while helping him with some others.

Well, not so one sided in the sense that all he really has to do to beat Ganon/Bowser/Dk/Dedede/Snake is pew pew pew all day.

But the point is they weren't useless buffs or changes that didn't compliment his playstyle. In fact, they fit right in with giving Falco more control.

Anyway, [the current incarnation of Falco] should really be enough to make Falco be complete, and if nothing else happens to him, I'll be very happy with the end result. The hitbox increase only on the shine that Orca brought up isn't worth fighting for. That doesn't deepen Falco's game, [it] just makes it easier to hit people with the shine, so I won't personally back it. But the dual shine plays right into 'control'. It can either pull in an opponent into Falco's CQC range, or push them back ala normal Brawl's shine to keep them at bay for a long range barrage. And it's completely dependent on how the player spaces: if they misspace, they get an undesirable result but are rewarded for knowing the shine's different spacing and hitbox properties. It really gives the player the feeling of 'control', to really have a choice over where you want your opponent to be and keeping them there, provided you know how to correctly space the move.

Of course, as it'll be significantly easier to pull in, since the pull in hitbox overrides the push out hitbox, making the pull in smaller would give the player more choice and control over the result they desire...and not to mention you won't be pulled into combos as frequently, which I know [quinnydinny will and hopefully others will too] appreciate, since the hitbox you're used to should be smaller.

But of course, since this is a wildly unnecessary change (Falco is great as is), I'm ready to take some wildly unnecessary nerfs for it. Such as all the ones I listed on my last post [here], [a few of which] are very real concerns, like Falco's jab, which [people in MD/VA who fight me] ***** about much more than the lasers.

But the point is, ideally we would be getting an increased normal shine hitbox, trading it off for the 2% laser damage nerf (which was going to be reverted back to 3% with Melee SHLs), smaller pull in range, a phantasm that is significantly easier to hit Falco out of, nerfed jabs (I haven't figured out what exactly), and an overall lower damage output, which I think is a fair trade off given that Falco needed some of this anyway and is only receiving a relatively small, but gameplay-layering compensation for it.

So I mean...I guess I'm still not going to "push" for it per say. As I said before in this thread and in that blurb, I'm extremely happy with Falco as is after the Melee SHL changes, and would love to see that be his gold incarnation. But those are my thoughts on it if anyone is interested. My two cents if you will, for whatever it's worth, and will be all I say on the subject barring direct responses to the post.

 

[stingers]

wow, all falco mains do is cry.

falco mains are the new ness mains JUST KIDDING NESS MAINS YOU'RE ALL TERRIBLE

 

[Thunderhorse+]

****it nukka I gotta figure out how to be stealthy like you!

10amicoolyets?

 

[Nybb]

I really don't think making the shine hitbox bigger is needed. The move is good enough as it is, and there are already enough people that complain about the shine change all the time. Dividing it up into two hitboxes doesn't sound appealing to me, but it would be at least worth trying to see how it feels.

On the topic of trading it for nerfs though...I don't think that would even be necessary. If anybody here hasn't been following the Nightly thread, there are probably some ledge/recovery mechanics changes coming down the pipe, all of which hurt Falco. Things like no auto-sweetspotting side-B and a smaller ledge snap range, combined with WBR members talking about making phantasm easier to get hit out of, are going to have a big impact on Falco's game. Not only does it obviously hurt his recovery, but the utility of phantasm onstage goes down a lot too.

I think overall these changes will benefit B+ as a whole, and I think Falco mains will be able to overcome them. But I just don't think its necessary to start throwing out ideas like nerfing his jab or an overall damage reduction.

I vote we go for Melee lasers (at either 2% or back up to 3%, depending on the speed of the SHL) and just hold off with more changes until some the mechanics stuff gets sorted out.

 

[shanus]

I had a fun idea for falco's shine, but I never ever followed through with it. It would test for if a collision occured, and if it did, allows you to JC it. However, if you miss, you get the old 100% endlag of the move (I think its sped up 1.25x or 1.5x now).

I doubt I'd ever go anywhere with this, but I like to think of fun ideas

 

[shanus]

Well. there are two ways to look at this change. Falco can shoot less lasers but has more control over where they go. It invites more thoughtful and more skillful usage of the laser.

Even though everybody says any change is a buff. That's not necessarily true.
This change reminds me of the fox change.

It's a change but it has its ups and downs. The reason that fox change was made was to decrease the easymode-ness of fox. And it worked. I see myself putting a lot more work into playing fox because now I have to dair--->shine--->up smash and I have to reverse my up tilts out of dairs and it leaves a lot more room for error. And in exchange for his dair nerf he got a shine, which adds some tech and mixes fox up a little to make him less "easy mode comboer" and turns him into a more interesting character.

With falco they are just changing it so it pulls B+ away from easy mode. I mean, let's face it. Falco is easy mode. Compared to other characters he is WAY easier to **** with. So this change is totally necessary. I don't see why people are complaining. If anything this makes a high level falco have more stage control. And promotes more thoughtful use of lasers.

Sorry I feel like I repeated myself like 10 times just now.

Sums up my intentions very well. Listen to the man!

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I had a fun idea for falco's shine, but I never ever followed through with it. It would test for if a collision occured, and if it did, allows you to JC it. However, if you miss, you get the old 100% endlag of the move (I think its sped up 1.25x or 1.5x now).

I doubt I'd ever go anywhere with this, but I like to think of fun ideas

hahahaha, that would just look weird, what with Falco's shine blinking out of existence and not returning to his hand upon JCing. But it's a fun concept either way...just not necessarily one I'd want to see implemented, if only due to the mostly likely glitchy-looking animation .

Also I believe it's x1.5 speedup on return.

At this rate though, we're gonna turn that **** shine into a swiss army knife. Next we're going to see someone requesting the shine shooting lasers, activating Falco's Final Smash, and playing this during the duration of the move.

...Hum....that last one would give me reason to spam the shine I guess...>_>.

 

[shanus]

Alright, I think I have a working version of the lasers fully made (not positive). Could one of you hop on the IRC and test?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I would love to. Be right there.