Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0

[Rudra]

Okay, I wont be able to stick around for long, but I did have a chance to try a few things. Here's my first impression of those changes (I DL'd pac 3):

1. SHL: I tried it out and it feels sort of weird. I'm not sure if its the way Brawl deals with shorthops or anything, but it doesnt feel as "fluent" as its Melee counterpart. Maybe I just need to get used to the feeling and timing...

2. FHTL: Its very similar to Melee's, but the third shot doesnt come out as easily. Its doable, but a bit more difficult to Melee Falco's FHTL. The rate of fire for the lasers would probably have to be sped up a little to replicate it, but its fine otherwise.

3. Utilt: I didnt notice much of a difference. It still seemed pretty quick.

4. Down Throw?: It may just be me, but it feels like the Dthrow's angle was raised (was this also included in pac 3, Shanus?). I had someone DI down and away with Wolf and they still managed to be regrabbed after a certain percentage, re-creating his CG in a way. I'm going to try this out with other heavies to verify this and everything else after I get back from an errand.

 

[bob-e]

I just downloaded pac 3, and overall, I like it.

SHL feels OK. The best I was able to get was 1 laser every 29 frames. Laser on 15, FF on 21, land and fire laser on 25 , and 4 frames of lag. I also like that we actually get the sound effect a couple frames before the laser fires.

IASA on Utilt is really subtle, but it's certainly there. Though it still seems like it will combo into itself 2 or 3 times against fast fallers and fatties.

 

[shanus]

oh, just to tell you, that laser is engineered with new physics which are not included in your sets. So if it feels slightly off, thats because your GCT isn't quite as fine tuned


Also, your set has the frame speed-up on the endlag of the utilt so it will feel the same (except with jump IASA towards the end). This will change as well.

 

[Rudra]

Ah, no wonder things felt the way they did. ^^;
Will you be putting up a GCT with the necessary physics as well or will we have to wait till the next Nightly?

Also, thanks for all of the work you guys are putting into this!

 

[Bakuryu]

This is really well done, thank you for your hard work Shanus. The SHL works great, my only gripe with it is I can't get it any lower then normal standing B level am I doing it wrong? If I wait a bit long I get no laser? I feel like that is where the super low one is suppose to come out but doesn't?

Also I though momentum is slightly messed up when you SHFFL left or right it seems like the downward moment cancels out your forward momentum, it might just be me. You can notice the downward momentum the most on Cornaria on the slant as you slide when you FF XD

 

[Dan_X]

I was out all day, and will have to test this tomorrow. I can't wait! Shanus, can you put the JC Shine in there for testing?

EDIT: Okay, so I decided that I couldn't wait, and went ahead with testing. I kept what you said Shanus in mind while testing.

oh, just to tell you, that laser is engineered with new physics which are not included in your sets. So if it feels slightly off, thats because your GCT isn't quite as fine tuned

SHL= Pretty awesome, definately more precise than before, you have to aim instead of spamming easy SHDLs. This is by no means a bad thing, it just takes more skill. I was able to consistently SHL Squirtle. Here are a few things that I found troublesome, which, could be caused due to different physics as Shanus mentioned:

If you shoot a laser too close to the ground, then FF, the shot fails. You'll hear the laser noise, but you were so low to the ground that no laser came out at all. This is something that can be repeated consistently. This should be the lowest possible laser, but instead it's broken. Obviously this can't happen in the final version. I'm almost certain this is ONLY happening because I wasn't using the fine-tuned physics that Shanus spoke of.

In addition, I found it odd that you have so much FF landing lag after a full-hopped laser. For example, if you full jump, shoot a laser at the peek of your jump, then FF, and try jumping as soon as you can when touching the ground, it's quite laggy. Conversely, you can bounce around like a bunny if you fire a laser off near the ground, FF, then jump again. Not really sure why it would make sense to lag after shooting a laser so high up. That should probably be fixed.

As for the Utilt with IASA frames, I didn't really notice it. So, are you supposed to be able to jump early or something? I know with Fox's JC shine you can press up on the joystick even with tapjump off and it will JC, is it supposed to work this way with the Utilt? Or are you just supposed to jump with the jump button? Either way, I didn't notice a difference. Which, could again be because we don't have the updated GCT Shanus has.

 

[Marufuji Ryo]

The SHFFL is pretty dope, after a 2 or 3 tries I was able to perform it near perfect, defiantly not as hard as I thought, thank you shanus. =)

 

[Dan_X]

So... Has any1, else tried the SHL beta? Also, Shanus, can you put your GCT on media fire with Falco's latest .PAC? I'd like to try Falco in his refined form.. Even if it is just beta.

Comeon people... Let's get more active in this thread! ;D

 

[shanus]

So... Has any1, else tried the SHL beta? Also, Shanus, can you put your GCT on media fire with Falco's latest .PAC? I'd like to try Falco in his refined form.. Even if it is just beta.

Comeon people... Let's get more active in this thread! ;D

The issue is ALR for everyone, etc, has been removed from the GCT and moved into pacs. So i would have to give you the entire latest build

 

[Dan_X]

The issue is ALR for everyone, etc, has been removed from the GCT and moved into pacs. So i would have to give you the entire latest build

Oooh, okay. I'll just wait then. What's going on in the WBR as of late? How close are we to the next release?

 

[GHNeko]

Yo Falco mains. Falco+ character board. Do you want?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Yo Falco mains. Falco+ character board. Do you want?

Do want

10dowants

 

[GHNeko]

http://tinyurl.com/falcoplus


get at me son.

 

[Dan_X]

Awesome!

As of now, there are many changes occuring for Falco+. my guide is going to have to be overhauled to catch up with the new changes and to make it nicer looking in general. I'm going to be working on my guide more when Falco nears a higher level of completion, as if I continue my guide now I'll have to edit it when the changes are made public.

I'd be more than happy to port the guide over to AiB, unless someone else wanted to write a guide.

 

[JCaesar]

http://tinyurl.com/falcoplus


get at me son.

Why did you hide the actual URL, hmmmm?

IT'S A TRAP!

 

[Dan_X]

Okay guys, to better clarify the proposed changes made by many I'm going to sum things up here and now.

Things we expect or would like to test in the next build. I'll clarify if it's something we want to test as opposed to an expected change.

1. Falco's SHDL is being removed and replaced with Melee style short-hopped, fast fallable, DIable, single lasers. As far as I could tell, the beta of such was FFable but not DIable.

2. Falco's uTilt is, as Shanus said, going to have IASA frames. The slow down will negate uTilt spam whereby the uTilt combos into itself. The IASA frames will retain the older and faster uTilt's utility, allowing for following up in the absence of more uTilt spam. I believe the end lag on the uTilt will be more so that it can't be spammed, encouraging JC follow ups and discouraging uTilt spam.

3. We're also expecting some changes with Falco's down air that will have an effect on flubb hits. I'd go back and quote specifics regarding this however I'm typing this from my iTouch and doing so would be a pain in the butt.

Edit: I went back to quote what the Dair change would be.

Just wanted to note that there'd still be a flub hit on dair, it's just that it would now be useful, acting as a weaker version of the first hit instead of being a completely different move. This flub hit would be useful for continuing combos at mid-high percents, perhaps even being able to combo into it from a dthrow (although you always have the dacus anyway, so perhaps that wouldn't be quite so useful). Basically, it'd be used for grounding a foe around sh height and then leading into something else.

4. We are interested in trying a variation of the Shine that Shanus cooked up, whereby the shine is JCable. More specifically; the Shine would only be jump-cancellable on successful landings, be it on the enemy or reflecting a projectile. If the shine misses or hits the enemy's shield it wouldn't be JCable... it'd lag as much as vBrawl's shine did. In many ways this would be far more difficult to use than the current shine. It would definately take more skill because spamming wouldn't be safe. The start-up of the JC Shine should also be faster, back to vBrawl's start-up speed of 2 frames (if I'm not mistaken). This seems fair as the shine would be considerably more difficult to use, and intensely more punishable than it is now.

5. We're also expecting his Phantasm to be nerfed in compensation of the changes he'll recieve. We expect that the window with which to knock Falco out of the Phantasm will be larger and easier, but only marginally so. It doesn't need to be nerfed beyond this because it'll be nerfed more when we change the ledges to not let side-Bs AS.

I believe that's all the changes that we've discussed and are still considering. What do you guys think?

 

[iLink]

whow falco's dair? What's wrong with his dair? : (

I liked using the whiffed dair in my combos.

How is it gonna be changed?

 

[GHNeko]

whow falco's dair? What's wrong with his dair? : (

I liked using the whiffed dair in my combos.

How is it gonna be changed?

It because a very weak meteor.

 

[CloneHat]

Melee dair>current dair

 

[VietGeek]

Melee dair is a lingering hitbox with somewhat deceptive hitboxes and is a spike for its entirety IIRC.

Of course its better. =V

 

[kciD]

I can't wait to try him in the next update. I'm sticking with the official plussery updates right now because I don't play much...and it seems like it's going to be a while before it's updated again.

But whenever that happens...I'll give Falco a good long test run to see if I want to main him. I like the ideas of changes so far, and can't wait to try out SHL.

 

[Dan_X]

whow falco's dair? What's wrong with his dair? : (

I liked using the whiffed dair in my combos.

How is it gonna be changed?

Fear not!! Look at my above post again. I've edited it to explain the Dair change in more detail.

EDIT:

****it, I just messed up my SD card, updated the .pacs with Brawl+ updates, and, accidentally removed Falco's beta SHSL. Now I can't use it until it's released! Can some1 hook me up with the beta .pac? Shanus doesn't have it on mediafire anymore.

Thanks!

 

[shanus]

I got falco's FF SHL 100% perfect now

 

[GHNeko]

Now for DI-ability.

 

[Bakuryu]

I got falco's FF SHL 100% perfect now

Perfect you say? Like you can get it as low as you want? DETAILS MY FRIEND DETAILS!

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Perfect you say? Like you can get it as low as you want? DETAILS MY FRIEND DETAILS!

More than that. .Pac file my friend .pac file!

Official build is coming out real soon, so I'll just wait around for that .

 

[Dan_X]

I got falco's FF SHL 100% perfect now

You're amazing shanus, I can't wait!!!

 

[5ive]

I'm getting hard.

 

[Dan_X]

I'm getting hard.

lol

10SHSLs

 

[shanus]

Perfect you say? Like you can get it as low as you want? DETAILS MY FRIEND DETAILS!

There is still a small window where if you do it too late it doesnt come out, but the height is very tunable right now and plays very naturally.

 

[Bakuryu]

Rumor has it you gave out a GCT with the physics changes for Falco in it, any chance we can get some of that? Unless the sets coming out today or tomorrow I need something to do now!

 

[shanus]

no GCT was gven out, he had to update his physics and i gave him an updated pac.

 

[Bakuryu]

no GCT was gven out, he had to update his physics and i gave him an updated pac.

Whats it the FitFalcoComplete3 or a newer one? If its a newer one can you post a link?

 

[Dan_X]

Big updates coming to this thread guys!!!! I'll be working on re-writing and finalizing much of the guide throughout the week, starting wednesday.

In the mean time, let's discuss Falco in the official build.
1. What do you guys think of his Melee style SHSL?
2. How do you guys feel about his Utilt change, and do you think the slower Utilt leads to Falco having trouble getting the enemy off of him?
3. What matchup do you guys generally deal with as Falco? How does Falco fair against said matchup?

I'll be adding a matchup list to my guide, I'm really going to need help from you guys on matchups that I'm unfamiliar with. More on that later!

Thanks!

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Big updates coming to this thread guys!!!! I'll be working on re-writing and finalizing much of the guide throughout the week, starting wednesday.

In the mean time, let's discuss Falco in the official build.
1. What do you guys think of his Melee style SHSL?
2. How do you guys feel about his Utilt change, and do you think the slower Utilt leads to Falco having trouble getting the enemy off of him?
3. What matchup do you guys generally deal with as Falco? How does Falco fair against said matchup?

I'll be adding a matchup list to my guide, I'm really going to need help from you guys on matchups that I'm unfamiliar with. More on that later!

Thanks!

The Melee-style SHL is absolutely wonderful. It took me awhile to get used to it (and I'm probably still getting used to it now), but it feels great and makes Falco feel like the bird on crack he was in Melee. I have no complaints about the SHL other than it could really use that super low laser, since I really hate it when I get a blank shot when approaching. I'm not sure whether that's even possible or not however.

The Utilt...I actually dislike. Don't get me wrong, on paper it sounds great, the ideal solution to making utilt lead into follow-ups while keeping it from being spammy. In practice though, I really just don't like it. At first I thought it was because of the fact that it merely felt cumbersome compared to the old one, as if when I did it, I didn't feel a discernible difference from just letting the move complete then jumping. But I chocked that up to my inexperience with the move, and just vowed to get more practice with it to see whether it was really as bad as I thought it was. But now that I've been thinking about it some more, it's not only that: it's the principle of the whole thing.

The IASA frames were designed as an artificial limitation. I respect the fact that the WBR wanted to bring more tech-skill into the game, and I do agree that the game needed it, and that they are generally taking it in the right direction. JC Shine, while closing off Fox's dair -> utilt/usmash, opened up shine -> bair, shine -> nair x???, shine -> grab (I believe that was possible, correct me if it isn't), and even preserved the dair -> utilt/usmash combo by allowing dair -> shine -> reverse utilt and dair -> shine -> usmash. Likewise, I view Falco's new SHL close off his easy camp game, but opened up new doors with an insanely good approach, new physics that came with it to amplify his SHFF game, and gave him a wider range of shot levels to use, while still keeping his camping game to a degree. Both of these open up doors in their respective characters' arsenal, while promoting needed tech skill, and for designing those I will forever applaud the efforts of the WBR. On the other hand, the utilt IASA is merely meant to limit - it does nothing to add to Falco's game. His old follow-ups, save for repeat utilts (which is fine to lose) are still there, but there's nothing he could be doing that wasn't possible before with his sped-up utilt. In that sense, it is no better than Manual L-canceling: it is an unneeded extra button press that only serves as an artificial barrier to overcome (and will not make a difference in the higher levels of play).

As for the match-ups, I'm not going to go into great detail now, but I generally find myself having to deal with Squirtle alot, and it almost never goes well for me if the opponent knows what they're doing. I'll explicate when we get to talking Squirtle match-ups, but I'll just leave off by saying it is typically one of the hardest match-ups I've encountered as a Falco main, and definitely one to keep an eye on, as Squirtle is very popular. Kirby is another fairly popular character that presents a problem match-up for Falco (as he always has).

 

[shanus]

Utilt JC Usmash thunderhorse as a new option :-P

 

[Rudra]

Utilt JC Usmash thunderhorse as a new option :-P

Thats actually pretty neat.

 

[Shell]

@Thunderhorse:

If I recall correctly, the oldest U-tilt speed up was 2.0x on frame 14, making it IASA to anything on 25 (from 36)

Then it was revised to 1.5x on frame 14, making it IASA to anything on 29 (again, from 36).

The new JC is IASA on Frame 22 -- this isn't just a limiter; it does, in fact, allow for aerial follow-ups even faster than his old 2x allowed for, and significantly faster than the 1.5x did. Combine this with the fact that the new gravity lets him rise faster and you have noticeably better aerial followups out of it than previous builds.

As shanus pointed out, you can U-tilt JC U-smash. The main benefit of this is the speed -- U-tilt hits 4, 12 and then jump on 22, U-smash on 31.

The damage is actually comparable or worse than U-tilt JC Aerial, which usually has more follow-ups, but if your opponents shield is low try crossing up their shield with Dair U-tilt JC U-smash and let me know how it goes.

All in all, it really is a trade-off more than just a nerf / artificial limitation.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I've said it before and I'll say it again: SHFF lasers are amazing!
As for the IASA up-tilt: its main purpose was to get rid of u-tilt spamming, not to add a bunch of new options to his game, so it served its purpose. And I like it better this was, anyway.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

While I can't argue against the numbers that SHeLL put up, I will say that personally, it doesn't seem possible to land a utilt JC usmash at any percent above 20-30% (maybe up till 40%), which you could most likely follow up with another aerial that would put you in a more advantageous position to combo (such as dair or bair) or another utilt by just letting the move complete anyway. Any percent above those and I would think the utilt would sent the opponent far enough and fast enough that by the time the IASA frames kick in, the opponent will be out of usmash range. I'll try practicing it to see what percents it works at and get back to you.