Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0

[GHNeko]

...wait...Its really frame 1?

wtf.

 

[Plum]

...wait...Its really frame 1?

wtf.

Squirtle isn't the only one running a frame 1 jab... Zamus comes to mind as another frame 1 jab, might be others sporting a frame 1 jab too.

:V

 

[GHNeko]

wow. dumb. at least imo. >_>

 

[Plum]

wow. dumb. at least imo. >_>

So go and thank everyone's favorite person Sakurai for frame 1 jabs

 

[Shell]

Yeah, that's almost as crazy as a "jab" that hits around the character on frame 1, and can be jump-canceled, or linked together by wavedashes, and reflects projectiles. Melee Fox shine, anyone?

Meh, it's all about perspective. Anyways, back on to Falco.

 

[Dan_X]

I'll update the OP with GoG's updated list later on when I get back from work. I'll also comment on the jab stuff. That'll be sometime around 11pm EST.

 

[BEES]

Yeah, that's almost as crazy as a "jab" that hits around the character on frame 1, and can be jump-canceled, or linked together by wavedashes, and reflects projectiles. Melee Fox shine, anyone?

Meh, it's all about perspective. Anyways, back on to Falco.

Worse range though, and it was in the context of melee. A lot of characters had something really broken in melee.

 

[Dan_X]

Response!!

As noted, I need to get the physics changes sorted out into something that people can actually understand rather than 8-digit hex values: that'll take a bit, though.

great, thanks!

The problem with nerfing jab1 is that...well, we would have to change other jab1s which are better than Falco's too. I'm specifically referring to Peach, who's jab1 not only comes out on the same frame, but also has longer reach (and probably more priority too, since I think it does more damage than Falco's jab1, but don't quote me on that one quite yet). I can't speak for the Peach mains, but I don't think they'd like that.

But if you're willing to give everyone whose jab1 is Falco-ish similar adjustments, I would give it a shot. However, jab1 is just a big a part of Falco's game as it is Peach's, and taking that away from Falco without doing something similar (it doesn't even have to be as extreme as what you do to Falco's jab) to other Falco-ish jabs is something I'm not cool with.

And good luck trying to get Ryoko to nerf any one of his gals in any way imaginable XD.

I agree. There's no way that Falco's jab game merits a nerf by itself, if other characters aren't going to get the same treatment. Peach's slap game is excellent. Is the grab guaranteed after a slap? No, then again, Falco's isn't either. They are both good set-ups however, that OFTEN lead to grabs and can look like TRUE combos, because they happen so quickly, and can be difficult to react to. Peach's slap -> is no more or less potent than Falco's jab game. Falco does however have a good multi hit after jab1, but so what. Other characters have plenty of excellent up close options. Falco's up-close option is.. his jab. Utilt is the 2nd best. After that... his options become weak in comparison too many.

Also, multi-jab to shine is NOT a combo, it's EXTREMELY punishable. All the enemy has to do is DI away from the jab and shield. They can then follow up with an attack. Is it a good surprise tactic? Yes. Is it reliable? Not really, especially if your opponent knows the Falco match-up well. It should almost be expected.

I hardly see how it's possible to spam Utilts. I can see hitting twice, but a third time? Really? Most characters, if not all, should be able to DI away. The change has significantly reduced the spam. There's nothing wrong with the Utilt being able to combo into itself once... I love to abuse Utilt, and I can tell you I'm far more careful with it now than I was before. I can not catch people in it tons of times, I can get of a strict 2 timer then quickly cancel the 2nd one into an attack. Going for a 3rd usually results in the enemy freeing themselves from your grasps. I fail to see how his currently nerfed Utilt is any better than the likes of Zamus, Squirtle, whatever.

As far as D-throw to jab regrabs go, I don't see how they are too problematic. I haven't tested this against heavies recently lately. However, in gameplay, I always try for D-throw resets. If the enemy DIs away from you, and downward, it doesn't matter if you jab reset them or not, they'll move to far to be re-grabbed. It's a good trick that works decent percent and DI depending, but I don't see how it's too good. You can usually only get off 2 re-grabs or so. I wouldn't be too adverse to it being taken out, but I really don't see how it makes Falco TOO GOOD.

THO, you only want to shield if you're grabbing from jab1. If it's from a laser you can go straight to grab.

JCaesar, those are on hit. The advantage on block is is +4 or +6 if they try an out of shield option for a hard or soft silent laser, respectively. If they drop shield, it's +11 or +13.

Also, according to the 5.0 change list, everyone has a spot dodge with invincibility by frame 2 or 3, so while the timing to escape is very tight, jab1 -> grab isn't a true combo on anyone.

So wait, are you saying that silent laser (SHFFL) to grab is a 'true combo?' If so, that's awesome.

Also... "jab1 -> grab isn't a true combo on anyone." I thought so.

Random question... has FireBird been changed in some way this past update to make it link better? I ask this because I saw "linking hits" in the change list. I wasn't sure what that meant.

I'm actually confused as to why people are making such a big deal over Falco's Dthrow. It's his best throw, in that it allows for some follow ups. However, as soon as the enemy's percent as high enough (not even that high either) they can just DI into the ground and tech avoiding most any follow up. There are plenty of throws in the game that put the enemy into a far more advantageous position than Falco. Heck, even with regrabs he generally can't kill out of a throw, even with Dacusing. Then you have characters like Ness who can kill most of the cast (especially lightweights) at 110% with a single Bthrow (especially near the edge of the stage). Not to mention that Ness's D-throw sets up for nice Fair follow-ups. Peach has throws that barely throw the enemy anywhere, bringing them around her head level, or something, which allows excellent follow-ups. Zelda has throws that also set the enemy up into sweet-spotted finishers. Falcon's Uthrow sets up for a knee, which can finish the enemy... I'm NOT saying any of these characters should be changed for these reasons, I'm pointing out that comboing or having follow-ups out of a throw is not a new concept... there's NOTHING wrong with it.

 

[bob-e]

So wait, are you saying that silent laser (SHFFL) to grab is a 'true combo?' If so, that's awesome.

It's a real combo, but not very practical. It only works with a standing grab, and you only have 1 extra frame to spare, so you basically have to land the laser at point blank range.

 

[Dan_X]

It's a real combo, but not very practical. It only works with a standing grab, and you only have 1 extra frame to spare, so you basically have to land the laser at point blank range.

Okay, that's what I thought. It's hard to pull it off, but it does happen on occasion. Nice find!

 

[CloneHat]

With the combination of buffer and most enemies only one frame option being their shield, I think that combo is more reliable than you give it credit for.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I miss ****** with SHDL.

 

[BEES]

I miss ****** with SHDL.

Agreeing with that.

 

[Dan_X]

I miss ****** with SHDL.

Agreeing with that.

I don't get it. SHFFL is better than SHDL in every way. It provides more options, more control, more speed, better follow ups, retreating. The only pro to using SHDL is that it's one more laser fired off at a time... which really doesn't do much. Falco has more control with his new lasers. I don't see why you don't **** with those.

 

[Plum]

I don't get it. SHFFL is better than SHDL in every way. It provides more options, more control, more speed, better follow ups, retreating. The only pro to using SHDL is that it's one more laser fired off at a time... which really doesn't do much. Falco has more control with his new lasers. I don't see why you don't **** with those.

Overly advantages matchups can be fun!
For Falco at least :V

 

[Dan_X]

Overly advantages matchups can be fun!
For Falco at least :V

Tis true. I feel more devastating with his new lasers though, even if they are technically 'easier' for heavies and tall characters to deal with in comparison to SHDL.

 

[BEES]

I think the SHDL just had a certain 64 Fox nostalgia to them. SHFFL do seem slightly better, even if they look less intimidating.

 

[HolyNightmare]

I seriously think Falco need nerfs or at least have that ******** down B into combo thing removed, he doesn't need it. Pretty much all his moves combos into something seriously he doesn't need it.

Also dthrow at very low % is the most stupid thing ever, Falco has too many options and can get you from 20% to at least 70%. Dair is almost unpunishable, you can't even block it and punish after. That move need some landing lag.

 

[Rudra]

I seriously think Falco need nerfs or at least removed that ******** down B into combo thing, he doesn't need it. Pretty much all his moves combos into something seriously he doesn't need it.

Also dthrow at very low % is the most stupid thing ever, Falco has too many options and can get you from 20% to at least 70%. Dair is almost unpunishable, you can't even block it and punish after. That move need some landing lag.

The shine isnt changing.

DThrow may be changed, but there's not much of a reason to do so aside from the potential Dthrow>Jab>Grab "combo" he had on Heavy characters. Also, what about other characters who can rack up damage really fast, can kill more effectively, and have aerials that are hard to punish (Wolf, Marth, Fox, ect)?

 

[Shell]

All landing lags are being examined

All auto-sweetspot side-b's will be fixed

I've wanted to tweak the D-throw for a little while, at least to remove the CG.

 

[bob-e]

I seriously think Falco need nerfs or at least have that ******** down B into combo thing removed, he doesn't need it. Pretty much all his moves combos into something seriously he doesn't need it.

Also dthrow at very low % is the most stupid thing ever, Falco has too many options and can get you from 20% to at least 70%. Dair is almost unpunishable, you can't even block it and punish after. That move need some landing lag.

Falco's shine was already made super DIable in 5.0, so pretty much all the auto comboes from it are gone. Unless Falco hits with it at the maximum range, most characters can safely tech by DIing down+towards Falco.

The grab jab reset on heavies really does need to be fixed, as well as being able to combo into kill with DACUS (same goes for all auto kill grab followups, I'm looking at you Squirtle). Other than that, Falco's dthrow needs to keep all its followups, since his the rest of his throws are downright useless for comboing.

I really don't see a problem with dair being safe on block, especially when you considering that is has almost no horizontal range. There are plenty of other attacks out there that are much safer and easier to land on block than Falco's dair.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I seriously think Falco need nerfs or at least have that ******** down B into combo thing removed, he doesn't need it. Pretty much all his moves combos into something seriously he doesn't need it.

Also dthrow at very low % is the most stupid thing ever, Falco has too many options and can get you from 20% to at least 70%. Dair is almost unpunishable, you can't even block it and punish after. That move need some landing lag.

Falco is getting nerfs. A nerf to his dthrow to prevent jab -> regrabs (and consequently the "too many options" issue that both you and atomsk addressed), as well as a slowdown to the start of the phantasm, and potentially a jab1 nerf since there seems to be enough of a train of thought in the WBR that Falco's jab game is too good. The shine has already proven to be valuable but hardly game breaking, as follow-ups are easily DIed. It sounds like you simply need more Falco experience and/or blatantly refuse to adapt to how the shine works now.

The only thing we get back is a pseudo-Melee dair, which is nice don't get me wrong, but comparatively we lose more in the long run, but of course this whole arrangement is fair and fine by me. This is even without bringing up the no-auto sweetspot side Bs and adjusted ALR, which would solve your dair problem (though really why cite the dair? The nair is stated much more often to be the best and possibly most broken aerial in Falco's arsenal, M2K being among that number).

Falco nerfs are coming. Be patient.

 

[HolyNightmare]

Falco is getting nerfs. A nerf to his dthrow to prevent jab -> regrabs (and consequently the "too many options" issue that both you and atomsk addressed), as well as a slowdown to the start of the phantasm, and potentially a jab1 nerf since there seems to be enough of a train of thought in the WBR that Falco's jab game is too good. The shine has already proven to be valuable but hardly game breaking, as follow-ups are easily DIed. It sounds like you simply need more Falco experience and/or blatantly refuse to adapt to how the shine works now.

The only thing we get back is a pseudo-Melee dair, which is nice don't get me wrong, but comparatively we lose more in the long run, but of course this whole arrangement is fair and fine by me. This is even without bringing up the no-auto sweetspot side Bs and adjusted ALR, which would solve your dair problem (though really why cite the dair? The nair is stated much more often to be the best and possibly most broken aerial in Falco's arsenal, M2K being among that number).

Falco nerfs are coming. Be patient.

To be honest it's more like Falco is lagless on all of his moves, the shine can stay but it's not like Falco can't combo without it which was the main point in adding that. I do need more Falco experience but I can't seem to be able to di most of his stuff, I've been playing Ally's and Chester Falco and it seem anything Falco has can outpriorize me. Dair to jabs or grab is unavoidable, blocking it is useless as Falco can imediately grab me or jab after. Dthrow can lead to ridiculous combos, even if I di those said combo I alway end up in reach for another hit.

Squirtle is another auto-combo character, I was pissing Ally so much with him lol. I mean everything connects and kill fast lol. Squirtle however lack range unlike Falco, Fox and Wolf who have great combo potential as well atm.

 

[GHNeko]

And most of your complaints are getting looked at. We got this, Holy. WE GOT THIS.

 

[JCaesar]

Holy, I recommend not using ROB vs Falco. It's a horrible matchup.

I do think Falco is slightly OP in this build (grr @ characters who were already really good but keep getting buffs for some reason ) but Squirtle owns him hard.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Praytell, what buffs did he receive in 5.0? He had his lasers altered, for better and for worse, and his gravity altered to tailor to that change, but all of that was one huge tradeoff. Other than that, he didn't get any other changes other than hitlag and SDI tweaks.

I still don't know what half of that **** does anyway other than make jab3/shine easier to SDI/DI and make his firebird/fair harder to SDI .

Yeah Squirt owns him good though. **** you for making me have to learn Charizard XD.

 

[BEES]

Falco seems quite balanced. The chaingrab is short, mostly unobtrusive, and escapable after 2 throws for many if not most characters.

The side-b autosweetspot needs to go but otherwise I think we're cooking with gas. Falco has good priority, mobility, and speed, but his recovery and his KO potential balance that out. Racking up damage may be easy, but it's quite tricky to seal the deal unless a good spike opportunity presents itself.

 

[leafgreen386]

The grab jab reset on heavies really does need to be fixed

Yes.

as well as being able to combo into kill with DACUS (same goes for all auto kill grab followups, I'm looking at you Squirtle)

What? No!

You act like a character having a kill combo from a throw is a bad thing. Having guaranteed kill setups is actually extremely healthy for the game; it encourages people to go on the offensive and try to get that grab that will let them finish off their opponent. The only time a problem arises is when those guaranteed kill setups are from very early percents... which this is not.

Falco just needs to lose the dthrow -> jab pseudo-chain throw.

 

[JCaesar]

Like I said before, I have no problem with throws having guaranteed followups, even into kill moves at reasonable %s (unlike Squirtle's uthrow currently ). It's not Falco's throw that's the problem, it's his jab.

Praytell, what buffs did he receive in 5.0? He had his lasers altered, for better and for worse, and his gravity altered to tailor to that change, but all of that was one huge tradeoff. Other than that, he didn't get any other changes other than hitlag and SDI tweaks.

I still don't know what half of that **** does anyway other than make jab3/shine easier to SDI/DI and make his firebird/fair harder to SDI .

Yeah Squirt owns him good though. **** you for making me have to learn Charizard XD.

I never said 5.0.

Whether Falco mains want to admit it or not, the shine was a major buff with no balancing nerf on a character who was already arguably top tier (but not without bad matchups). It made him deeper and more interesting to play, which is great, but it also made him better, which he didn't need to be. Utilt was also a huge buff though thankfully it's been toned down.

What nerfs has Falco ever gotten that weren't trades (like SHL), toning down overbuffs, or the result of physics changes? Maybe I'm missing something.

 

[CloneHat]

Let's just stop changing Falco.

 

[Rudra]

Let's just stop changing Falco.

And what of the other changes that were mentioned? The Dair flub hit, the Phantasm nerf, Laser DI, Dthrow fixes...Falco may be good as is, but he could still stand for these few changes.

 

[Dan_X]

Like I said before, I have no problem with throws having guaranteed followups, even into kill moves at reasonable %s (unlike Squirtle's uthrow currently ). It's not Falco's throw that's the problem, it's his jab.



I never said 5.0.

Whether Falco mains want to admit it or not, the shine was a major buff with no balancing nerf on a character who was already arguably top tier (but not without bad matchups). It made him deeper and more interesting to play, which is great, but it also made him better, which he didn't need to be. Utilt was also a huge buff though thankfully it's been toned down.

What nerfs has Falco ever gotten that weren't trades (like SHL), toning down overbuffs, or the result of physics changes? Maybe I'm missing something.

edit: I tried to clean up this post again. Typing from an iTouch is laggy, please ignore any ridiculous typos.

I'm sorry, but whoever came up with this line of thinking is a moron. Tradeoffs don't always work because many of the changes aren't measurable. You can't quantify many things. Falco got the uTilt change early in Brawl+ because... He needed it? It's entirely nonsensical to always hurt one area when fixing another. The only reason people like to think of tradeoffs is becuase it lets them sleep easy. They feel that it's unconditionally fair to tradeoff.

Falco had few legit options for popping the enemy into the air before his uTilt buff. There was such a tight window to follow up that most enemies could escape before any follow up. In addition, Falco was essentially nerfed going into Brawl+, and deserved something for it. For example, he lost his CGs which were the back bone to his vBrawl play. They also lead to spike finishes. Most characters got better, initially, where as Falco did not... Well, not as much. None of his changes have been carelessly implemented. Each change has, for the most part, been exacting in purpose. The fact that vBrawl Falco was 3rd or 4th best in the game has nothing to do with the changes Falco+ recieved. VBrawl is a different game, Falco can't play like he did before, and he doesn't have to.

To make Falco less linear, less "my only option is running and camping.. Pew pew" the shine was changed. It was changed for a few reasons. For one, it adds to his depth, it gives him reason to attack-- instead of spamming lasers. The shine was so bad before it was almost useless. It was bland, Falco was bland. The old shine was very punishable, and was very easily avoided. As such, it was a garbage option. Even when it did connect with the enemy it was garbage. It didn't put the enemy in a bad position at all, it did nothing for Falco.

His lasers have been changed, which is a trade off.

Were already expecting a nerf to jab1, and his phantasm. Falco's already incredibly easy to gimp. Seriously, his recovery sucks. So ge has a good on-stage game and a shaky off-stage one. So what?

I don't so what's wrong with d-throw. Once the jab-resets --> grabs are fixed the dthrow is fine. D-throw doesn't always set-up for a follow up. That's ridiculous. Most characters can DI into the ground, away from Falco at an angle and tech. They can avoid any and all followups. There's nothing wrong with being able to follow up a grab. Many characters have far more ridiculous options out of grabs than falco. No, really, other characters can land kill moves out of grab

note: not the entire wall of text is directed at you jcaesar. That was ne summing up the last 2 pages. My comp died today. ;( I'm typing from my Touch.

 

[GHNeko]

Hardware death or software.

 

[RandomLax]

Like I said before, I have no problem with throws having guaranteed followups, even into kill moves at reasonable %s (unlike Squirtle's uthrow currently ). It's not Falco's throw that's the problem, it's his jab.



I never said 5.0.

Whether Falco mains want to admit it or not, the shine was a major buff with no balancing nerf on a character who was already arguably top tier (but not without bad matchups). It made him deeper and more interesting to play, which is great, but it also made him better, which he didn't need to be. Utilt was also a huge buff though thankfully it's been toned down.

What nerfs has Falco ever gotten that weren't trades (like SHL), toning down overbuffs, or the result of physics changes? Maybe I'm missing something.

I'm sorry, but whoever came up with this line of thinking is a moron. Tradeoff don't always work because many of the changes aren't measurable. You can quantify many things. Falco got the uTilt change early in Brawl+ because... He needed it? It's entirely nonsensical to always hurt one area when fixing another. The only reason people like to think of tradeoff is becuase it let's them sleep easy. They feel that it's unconditionally fair to tradeoff.

Falco had few legit options for popping the enemy into the air before his uTilt buff. There was such a tight window to follow up that most enemies could escape before any follow up.

To make Falco less linear, less "my only option is running and camping.. Pew pew" the shine was changed. It was changed for a few reasons. For one, it adds to his depth, it gives him reason to attack-- instead of spamming lasers. The shine was so bad before it was almost useless. It was bland, Falco was bland. The old shine was very punishable, and was very easily avoided. As such, it was a garbage option. Even when it did connect with the enemy it was garbage. It didn't put the enemy in a bad position at all, it did nothing for Falco.

His lasers have been changed, which is a trade off.

Were already expecting a nerf to jab1, and his phantasm. Falco's already incredibly easy to gimp. Seriously, his recovery sucks. So ge has a good on-stage game and a shaky off-stage one. So what?

I don't so what's wrong with d-throw. Once the jab-resets --> grabs are fixed the dthrow is fine. D-throw doesn't always set-up for a follow up. That's ridiculous. Most characters can DI into the ground, away from Falco at an angle and tech. They can avoid any and all followups. There's nothing wrong with being able to follow up a grab. Many characters have far more ridiculous options out of grabs than falco. No, really, other characters can land kill moves out of grab

note: not the entire wall of text is directed at you jcaesar. That was ne summing up the last 2 pages. My comp died today. ;( I'm typing from my Touch.

I agree with Orca Falco originally had very few options to start combos
The changes he recieved were necessary to make him 'competitive' for brawl+
Considering he was only "top tier" in vbrawl because of his chaingrabs,
camping priority, and spike without his cg or camp he needed something
to makeup for this loss. Orca makes a good point the vshine is horrible
laggy startup, laggy ending and does nothing even if it does land
but the shine+ is combo starting, quick, and effective. Even so Falco's
weakness is so obvious it compensates for many of his buffs and
his offstage game getting further gimped will cement that. Even so
+ isnt gold yet, and theres a lot of room left until they go gold.

Also you're welcome Th+

 

[CloneHat]

And what of the other changes that were mentioned? The Dair flub hit, the Phantasm nerf, Laser DI, Dthrow fixes...Falco may be good as is, but he could still stand for these few changes.

Sorry, I meant making up NEW changes for Falco, as those have been planned for a while now.

 

[Dan_X]

Sorry, I meant making up NEW changes for Falco, as those have been planned for a while now.

I'm sorry, what are we talking about? What new changes do you want for Falco, and why?

 

[CloneHat]

I said I don't want new changes for Falco, just the ones that have been in the works/planning for a while (like the ones you mentioned above).

 

[Dan_X]

I said I don't want new changes for Falco, just the ones that have been in the works/planning for a while (like the ones you mentioned above).

Thanks for clearing up my confusion.

It's such a pain in the *** keeping track of things now that my pc is dead and I'm relying on my iTouch.

 

[HolyNightmare]

Holy, I recommend not using ROB vs Falco. It's a horrible matchup.

I do think Falco is slightly OP in this build (grr @ characters who were already really good but keep getting buffs for some reason ) but Squirtle owns him hard.

Well at least in Brawl, I can actually fight from close quarter since I can block and counter back.
Only way to win in Brawl+ is to gimp Falco and against a smart one it's kinda hard.

 

[GHNeko]

Pick up a secondary mang.