Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0

[Dan_X]

Yeah, as I've said a million times, and I can't stop expressing it, Falco's new physics and SHL are stunning, perfect even.

I have no complaints about the SHL other than it could really use that super low laser, since I really hate it when I get a blank shot when approaching. I'm not sure whether that's even possible or not however.

I'm confused as to what you mean here. When you say "super low laser" you're referring to the soundless one right? I'm pretty sure the soundless laser is the shortest executable laser possible. Any lower than that and the gun won't shoot.

The window for messing up and missfiring is so minimal it's hardly worth mentioning. It seems like a decent barrier, one I can deal with, if it will further make his SHL a harder skill. I can tell you with a fair degree of certainty that I fairly consistently only shoot soundless lasers (the lowest one), it's simply awesome. It's tight timing for sure, but it's entirely possible. Furthering that, I've found a semi new AT for Falco...

It's really not a new AT per say, but it just has new implementations for Falco now. I'm talking B-reversals. It can be fairly difficult to do, but like anything, once you've gotten the muscle memory down it becomes a consistently reliable option.

Basically, whilst retreating, fire off a laser. Immediately after pressing B (shooting the laser) smash the joystick in the opposite direction, and very quickly move the joystick to a downward diagonal. Moving the joy-stick should be a near seamless ordeal, smash back then down at a diagonal. It's VERY tight timing.

If you do this correctly, a few interesting things can happen:

A) You get a soundless Fast Falled B-reversed laser. This is EXCELLENT in that it's the ULTIMATE surprise approach. You can dash, and jump away from an enemy, seemingly retreating from them, and IMMEDIATELY B-reverse SHL (BRSHL?) your lowest laser, immediately turning your retreat into an advancement. Obviously, just as any SHL, you can immediately follow up after this, not to mention you've stopped ANYTHING the enemy was doing in their tracks, as the laser has stunned them for a moment.

B) Though the timing is seemingly more tight, though perhaps manageable (I need to test this more) you can execute the same maneuver as above and get a wavedash like effect where you're momentum is suddenly reversed and fast fallen from the air, and transferred onto the ground before a laser could come out, you'll slide a bit. Though it may not be as useful because you don't shoot the laser, it's still very quick and very surprising. You can attack instantly as well.

C) You can also do regular B-reversals, whereby you fire a laser, smash the opposite way, and then shift your momentum that way in mid-air firing off the laser in the smashed direction. However, it'll be at a general short hopped height if you don't FF it.

I'm not sure if this sort of AT merits its own name, as it's sort of recycling an older AT. However, the fact that it's a specific technique may give reason to naming it for Falco. After all, naming it would make it more easily recognizable, and easier to talk about. B-Reversed Short-Hopped Laser (BRSHL).

I'll make a video tomorrow.. Yes, my first demonstration video.

I'm not sure how many of you guys make use of B-reversed lasers, but it's a HUGE part of my game. :D

--

On another note. It could just be me, but without his faster Utilt I find it VERY difficult to contend with characters who have a myriad of close quarters options. I fight a Peach, ZSS, and Wolf regularly. The thing they all have in common is that they all have very useful GTFO me attacks. For example, Falco has his Utilt, and Jabs, though his now slower Utilt has a hard time contending with the likes of many other character's options. ZSS can Dtilt, which will eventually shield poke, then she can chase with short-hopped Uairs (her Uair is almost too good). She also has good jabs, and an excllent Utilt which if I'm not mistaken hits both behind and in front of her. This always beats out Falco's slower options. . Wolf has a decent Utilt, perhaps no better than Falco's, but he also has good jabs, beyond this, he has a safety mechanic being his Shine. It's a very reliable GTFO me move, and often sets up into follow ups. Peach has a very very quick slap to grab game, she also has tilts that combo the heck out of FFers like Falco, and her downsmash is very safe up close. I find it exceedingly more difficult to handle these characters up close now than I did before the Utilt change. Is this all in my head, or do you guys know what I mean. Have any of you experience this?

I understand that Utilt spam is lame, but now Falco has a very hard time gettign the enemy off of him. I don't use his Down Smash a ton (because of the tiny range), but maybe it would help in this scenario? I'm not sure if it's fast enough though. His Dtilt is also too slow to win out over most other character's options. It might be nice if to help Falco get the ridiculously good combo characters off of him he has his Dtilt buffed a bit, slightly sped up. It's unfortunate because it's a good move, it's just not fast enough to use very often if at all. I mean, it sets up the enemy at a fine angle, one that they can DI follow ups if they see it coming, but usually they don't see it coming as it's so rarely used.

What do you guys think about this? Also, what aboutthe AT I was talking about?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I'm confused as to what you mean here. When you say "super low laser" you're referring to the soundless one right? I'm pretty sure the soundless laser is the shortest executable laser possible. Any lower than that and the gun won't shoot.

That's exactly what I mean. Not the silent laser bit, but the 'any lower and the gun won't shoot' bit. I'm pretty sure it could be fired at any level in Melee, even right before you hit the ground. And the window isn't minimal at all: it happens whether you shoot it too soon or too late. Too late I can understand, but it bugs me that doing it too early causes the laser not to fire at all rather than just firing higher than expected. Soundless lasers I consider the norm now rather than anything 'super low' XD.

It was only a minor nitpick anyway though, one that I can certainly live with and get accommodated to, and I'm very willing to overlook it because the rest of it is so great.

As for the AT, I found that out when beta-testing the SHL before its release. It's pretty difficult to do consistently, but I figure it could be a good tool if someone could master it.

Utilt's GTFO game doesn't bother me all that much. I rarely used it for that purpose when it got nerfed to 1.5x speed anyway. Jabs/jab -> grab/nair are usually the superior choices.

 

[shanus]

No, there was a point in melee where the laser didn't fire.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Ok, disregard all that then XD. The SHL is 100% awesome instead of just 99% awesome.

Goes to show how often I played Melee at a competitive level.

 

[JCaesar]

I can't remember who in Melee had the shortest crouch, but I know G&W was very near the shortest, and Falco could definitely hit him out of crouch (it required perfect timing though). Do Falco+'s lasers go that low?

 

[bob-e]

I can't remember who in Melee had the shortest crouch, but I know G&W was very near the shortest, and Falco could definitely hit him out of crouch (it required perfect timing though). Do Falco+'s lasers go that low?

Unfortunately, no.

A perfect SHL is only as low as standing laser.

 

[Bakuryu]

I always though sheik had one of the lowest crouches. And yes I still miss that super low laser, which was in Melee, but It seems impossible to do in Brawl =\ The soundless laser was always the lowest in Brawl+ its the normal laser height.

 

[Dan_X]

@Thunderhorse: Yeah, I too found said AT during beta. It's really not too difficult to consistently do. I execute it on the fly in midst of battle. I mean, I could certainly improve more, I'm just saying it's managable.

Yeah, I don't mind the misfire at all. I can't believe how far Brawl+ has come, remember we only dreamed of balancing characters? When we were resticted to 256 lines... Haha. Now look at Falco, and many of the other characters. I would never have expected it to come this far. I never thoght we'd be able to do this kind of stuff.

 

[GHNeko]

Personally, I think Falco is the ideal top tier character. <_<

Distinct and Exploitable Weakness, an extremely full combo game, a multitude of ways to be played, Good and Bad Stages, Good and Bad match ups. Bad match ups to mid/high/top tier characters.

He's anything but dull to me. :V

 

[Dan_X]

Personally, I think Falco is the ideal top tier character. <_<

Distinct and Exploitable Weakness, an extremely full combo game, a multitude of ways to be played, Good and Bad Stages, Good and Bad match ups. Bad match ups to mid/high/top tier characters.

He's anything but dull to me. :V

You make a very good point, I agree. He's so fun to play. I get a certain sick satisfaction from spamming lasers at the enemy, especially when advancing on the enemy.

 

[Tsukizukun]

Falco+ 5.0=perfect now, imo!
Love this Melee handling with his lasers, awesome^^

 

[BRLNK88]

I've always been curious but never tried it out, if you shine an opponent near the edge with your back facing it, does it work to shdair afterwards and spike?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

^ If the DI is bad enough. But it has to be really bad though.

Anyway, I'm going to step in and agree about the 5.0 Falco being absolutely perfect. Even if they don't add in the dair weak meteor flub in exchange for Magus' planed Phantasm nerf, he's still really good as is, and other than the above change, I don't think we should change Falco any more.

 

[kciD]

By the sound of things, and the feel I had from him from playing against CPU's, I think Falco is good for gold. I'll get to test this later tonight against a friend of mine...so we'll see.

 

[shanus]

glad to see that the lasers (which i spent way too long making) are good

 

[Dan_X]

By the sound of things, and the feel I had from him from playing against CPU's, I think Falco is good for gold. I'll get to test this later tonight against a friend of mine...so we'll see.

Yeah, after playing Falco more in this build I'd have to agree with you. Aside from a change on his Dair flub hits, if they decide to implement it, I'd say he should stay relatively unchanged. He's perfect.

@shanus: thanks for all of your hard work man! You've done an amazing job with Falco. His SHL is literally perfect, better than I thought possible!

 

[RandomLax]

Hello Other Falco+ Mains, I read a few pages of the dicussion and like the idea of a jc shine in exchange for a slight phantasm nerf. However the melee-esque dair in exchange for further phantasm nerfing worries me. Due to its already low priority, and predictiblity. If the specifics
could be explained...

And I agree with the others on his SH laser, I doubt it could get any better

Side note: Thunderhorse you're too good, cause of you I decied to main falco+

 

[RPGsFTW]

I think for Falco to be gold he needs:

No auto-sweet spotting side-B. Same goes for other characters.
NO auto jabs, VERY annoying that we have them at all.
Melee Dair, as in a weak meteor for the flub hit.

I only say the 3rd thing because it sounds like it'd be really nice, but not really a big change.

 

[Rudra]

I'd like to see the Dair weak meteor as well. I'm not quite sold on the idea of JC Shine, since Falco's shine already puts the opponent in a good position to follow up with something in most cases when landed (not to mention, how awkward it may look).

 

[Dan_X]

Yeah, at this point I would NOT want a JC Shine. His Shine is perfectly fine as is. It works well, and carries out it's purpose nicely. No reason to fix was isn't broken.

As for Dair, I agree that a change to the flub hits would be nice.

Obviously a nerf to his Phantasm will eventually occur, as all characters will be stripped from their side-B auto-sweetspotting.

Aside from this, however, Falco is pretty much perfect for gold! :D

 

[CloneHat]

I think Falco is pretty much perfect! I've been trying him out recently, and I like the FF lasers. I've got them basically 100% now.

However, I have one question: is laser>grab a legit combo? I don't think so, there seems to be too much landing lag.

 

[Rudra]

I think Falco is pretty much perfect! I've been trying him out recently, and I like the FF lasers. I've got them basically 100% now.

However, I have one question: is laser>grab a legit combo? I don't think so, there seems to be too much landing lag.

Maybe if you're really close to them when you land a laser. I normally stick with jabs, DACUS, or tilts, so I wouldnt really know.

Spoiler

Still hoping for Laser DI >_<

 

[Thunderhorse+]

However, I have one question: is laser>grab a legit combo? I don't think so, there seems to be too much landing lag.

I don't believe laser -> grab is a legit combo. Laser -> jab might be though. I don't have any hard frame evidence though, all I have is the fact that I have tried it numerous times on various different spacings, and only rarely does it work. This could be in part my fault though, so I'd wait till someone more accomplished with frame data comes on by. But my initial impression is to say no.

I agree that Falco is mostly perfect now. He still needs some small tweaks, but it's not anything the WBR wasn't already planning on doing in the first place (changed angle on Dthrow, phantasm nerf, semi-Melee dair, ALR revisions/updates). But other than that he feels great.

And a much belated thanks to RandomLax. Warmed my heart it did .

 

[GHNeko]

Wait. What's the issue with Dthrow? 2gud or 2gay?

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Wait. What's the issue with Dthrow? 2gud or 2gay?

Jab -> regrab CGs are 2gud against heavies and 2gay in general.

Atomsk has also mentioned that him, JCaesar, Yes!, and Cape believe Falco to be too good, and he thinks that the root cause of it is in the dthrow's angle, creating a sort of "Ness dthrow lite" in that Falco can follow up with anything after a dthrow too easily. An angle change to alleviate the jab -> regrab should also help this matter if there is really a problem with Falco's dthrow at all while keeping the throw usable (probably still by far his most useful one).

In any case, guaranteed jab -> regrab should be enough reason to look into it.

EDIT: Here is the post in question that first raised the issue of altering the dthrow, made by an undisclosed member of the WBR.

 

[JCaesar]

I don't really have a problem with Falco's dthrow. Guaranteed followups from a throw are nothing new or unique. It's the jab -> regrab stuff which is the problem, which leads me to my problem with Falco: his jab has too much range/priority/speed. Trim that thing down a bit so you can't reset your opponent so easily after a dthrow and jab -> regrab won't be a problem, and hopefully make jab not so retardedly safe and set up for shine.

My other beef with Falco is that his utilt still self-combos 3 or 4 times. More endlag, current IASA frames should remedy that quick.

Oh and in case not everyone has seen yet, check out Atomsk's Falco:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0y94dZkYXtU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjIfyrit_sc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UiW5q6IuF8o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KdCryO03RY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBa6erLZdDk

It's not fancy but it's extremely efficient. No offense to anyone but I'd say Atomsk probably has the best Falco+ right now.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

More endlag on already what is probably one of the more punishable utilts in the game un-IASA'd is a bit silly. If the utilt is a problem, I would suggest trying to do to that what you did with other utilts before that - adjusting the BKB so that it sends the opponent too far up to follow with another utilt after 2-3ish depending on weight/fall class.

Also wasn't it leafgreen who did the calculations which said that the only true combo a vBrawl utilt has is with itself only 1 more time at 0%? After that 2nd utilt, there is literally nothing else it can true combo into without IASAing it.

Unless of course I was right and he was wrong.

The problem with nerfing jab1 is that...well, we would have to change other jab1s which are better than Falco's too. I'm specifically referring to Peach, who's jab1 not only comes out on the same frame, but also has longer reach (and probably more priority too, since I think it does more damage than Falco's jab1, but don't quote me on that one quite yet). I can't speak for the Peach mains, but I don't think they'd like that.

But if you're willing to give everyone whose jab1 is Falco-ish similar adjustments, I would give it a shot. However, jab1 is just a big a part of Falco's game as it is Peach's, and taking that away from Falco without doing something similar (it doesn't even have to be as extreme as what you do to Falco's jab) to other Falco-ish jabs is something I'm not cool with.

And good luck trying to get Ryoko to nerf any one of his gals in any way imaginable XD.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

I also wouldn't like Peach's jab being nerfed. It's not broken at all and DOESN'T lead into grab. The opponent lands on the ground and can shield or roll away before she can grab them. *Don't quote me on the rolling quite yet*. However, it is one of her most far-ranged ground moves, and I can see how it would have more priority than Falco's. That doesn't mean you should nerf it just because it's a good move. Hey, let's make Captain Falcon's uair only do 1 damage but with compensated KB. It would be fair, right? Wrong, because it would have much less hitstun than usual.

*puts flame shield up*


And about Falco's utilt....It doesn't lead into itself 3 or 4 times. I have tested this with level nine computers (mine totally kick ***). I tested against Dedede.. I could only chain 2 at 0%...and, get this, against bowser, after the first utilt, he could actually LAND ON THE GROUND and GRAB me. Maybe that's just because bowser has low hitstun or something, but still.....

Utilt has other followups from the IASA into jump now which make it less boring and dumfoundingly stupid.

Utilt > JC up smash *at low percents...this IS a true combo*

Utilt > aerial *percent varies.... I personally like to nair at low percents and uair at high percents with Falco's high DJ*

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Chill, I'm not calling out for a nerf for Peach's jab1 XD. What I'm more or less saying is "well, if you want to nerf Falco's jab1 for having too much speed/priority/reach, here's X move that has the same speed, more (probably) priority, and more reach. Can we keep some consistency whether we change it or we don't?"

EDIT: ok I just checked the damage output of Peach's jab1, and was surprised to find out it was only 3% as compared to Falco's 4%. I would've though it'd do more, considering it's only a 2 hit non-gatling jab.

Priority is a funny thing anyway. Neither Falco's nor Peach's jab1s have transcendent priority or have hitboxes that extend from their hurtboxes, and both come out on frame 2. Peach's jab1 has slightly more range while Falco's does 1% more damage. I imagine the extra bit of reach probably does much more in the long run than being able to outpower moves that do 2% damage anywho (what moves do 2% or less damage other than gatling jabs anyway?).

Actually, if you need to do over half the damage to beat a move out, then Falco's jab1 could only outprioritize moves that do 1%...but so could Peach's. If that's true, then Peach's jab1 strictly has better priority than Falco's jab1 by virtue of having a bit more range.

 

[Revven]

According to Ryoko (which I have also experienced against Peaches before) jab > grab with her isn't legit like it is Falco. I get out of it before Peach can grab me. If you want to make a jab1 comparison with Falco, your best bet is Falcon's jab1. Falcon's jab1 always leads to grab.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Jab -> grab certainly isn't legit with Falco either. I don't know where you're getting that information from.

I certainly get beat out by everyone's jab combo when I go for jab -> grab. And trust me, doing jab -> grabs as often as I do, I know how to do my jab -> grabs. I've have seen...well, just about every player I've fought against escape it just as consistently as you do Peach's jab -> grab as long as they don't think I'm going to ftilt and shield again after the jab hit. And I play some **** good people.

I can't speak for Falcon since I don't play him.

Also I don't recall saying Peach's jab -> grab was legit in the first place? I don't even know where it has any relevance in the argument at all, as neither me nor JCaesar stated that any jab/grab combo is legit or not, and neither are citing it as reasoning as to why Falco's jab1 should be nerfed or not.

 

[SymphonicSage12]

Also, I thought that all jab linking its were globally changed to make people hit the ground again faster, so that you can't combo off of them or something..

 

[RyokoYaksa]

Uh... Falco's jab cancel game and grab range >>> Peach's. That's why his jab->grab setups work as well as they do, and he has his potent secondary/rapid jabs as an immediate fall back.

 

[JCaesar]

Jab -> grab certainly isn't legit with Falco either. I don't know where you're getting that information from.

I certainly get beat out by everyone's jab combo when I go for jab -> grab. And trust me, doing jab -> grabs as often as I do, I know how to do my jab -> grabs. I've have seen...well, just about every player I've fought against escape it just as consistently as you do Peach's jab -> grab as long as they don't think I'm going to ftilt and shield again after the jab hit. And I play some **** good people.

I'm pretty sure it is legit on most characters. I use Squirtle as a Falco counter, partially because he can easily avoid lasers, but mostly because his jab1 comes out on frame 1, faster than both spotdodge and roll, and it is the only way I've found of dealing with Falco's insane jab game. Only a select few characters have a 1 frame jab though, so, sucks for the rest of the cast. They're screwed.

Falco's rapid jabs are completely 100% safe, unlike Peach's 2-hit jab. If Falco is ever under pressure, all he has to do is mash A for a free reset.

 

[Andarel]

That list is from GoG?

Here is the updated version of that: should be a bit simpler to understand (Falco's wasn't that confusing or outdated). As noted, I need to get the physics changes sorted out into something that people can actually understand rather than 8-digit hex values: that'll take a bit, though.

Falco

    Physics:   [GET INFORMATION]
    -Jump/Grav Values: New: 133AC4E0; Old: 1326AC80

    * Down B:  
    	  - BKB 35 -> 80, Angle 20 -> 120
          - Speed tweaked: Startup slower, sped up after hitbox (0.500x Frame 1; 1.000x Frame 4; 1.500x Frame 7)
          - Hitlag Multiplier: 0.50x -> 1.00x
          - SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.00x -> 1.00x
          - Hitstun added to allow for combos (Special offensive flags changed from 204FFFC3 -> 004FFFC3)
          
    * Rapid Jabs:
          - Hitlag Multiplier: 1.00x -> 1.30x

    * Neutral B
          - Damage 3% -> 2%

    * Up Tilt
          - IASA Frame 22 (for jump only)

    * F-Smash
          - (Hitbox A) Hitlag Multiplier: 0.70x -> 0.90x
          - (Hitbox B) Hitlag Multiplier: 0.30x -> 0.60x
          - (Hitbox B) SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.30x -> 1.00x
    
    * F-Air:
          - (Hitbox A) Hitlag Multiplier: 0.70x -> 0.90x
          - (Hitbox B) SDI Capacity Multiplier: 0.00x -> 0.80x
    
    * Neutral-B:
          - Can now only perform 1 laser in the air in a Short Hop
          - Can now fastfall during the laser animation after the peak of a jump has been reached
    
    * Up-B:
          - (Linking Hits) SDI Capacity Multiplier: 1.50x -> 0.80x

 

[bob-e]

Frame data stuff

Fast fall laser has a +7 advantage, soft landing laser has +9
Moves fast enough to combo from any silent laser laser (frame they hit): jab (2), grab(6), dash attack(4), f tint(6), u tilt(3).
Soft landing silent laser only: u smash(8).

On the question of jab -> grab being a legit combo.
Canceling the first hit of jab with shield gives Falco a +2 advantage. Grab connects on 6 with armor on the last frame if it connects. This means that if a character has an attack 3 frames or faster, or a roll/dodge with invincibility by 4, jab -> grab doesn't work.

 

[THO]

So a laser to a shield goes to a grab? I think that is what your saying. If so that is pretty good.

 

[JCaesar]

bob-e, are these frame advantages based "on hit" or "on shield"?

 

[bob-e]

THO, you only want to shield if you're grabbing from jab1. If it's from a laser you can go straight to grab.

JCaesar, those are on hit. The advantage on block is is +4 or +6 if they try an out of shield option for a hard or soft silent laser, respectively. If they drop shield, it's +11 or +13.

Also, according to the 5.0 change list, everyone has a spot dodge with invincibility by frame 2 or 3, so while the timing to escape is very tight, jab1 -> grab isn't a true combo on anyone.

 

[JCaesar]

Maybe so, but Squirtle's 1 frame jab helps me get out of it much more consistently

You can be punished for spotdodging. You can't be punished if you interrupt the jab->grab with a jab of your own.