Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0

[Rudra]

Hmm...Orca does have a point: SHDL is Falco's best tool in regards to pinning his opponent down, especially when it comes to the taller characters. However, I do believe that the precision and approach factor brought about by the SHL and DIable projectiles is something that cant simply be overlooked. Normally, I'd probably say "Why not have both?" but seeing as how people believe that Falco can already camp extremely well, it'd be much more of a buff than anything else (and I havent forgotten how much of a stir his Shine change alone brought about...)

SHL is a very effective approaching method for Falco in that its a faster, more concentrated approach which sacrifices coverage from a second laser for speed and precision, while SHDL is a better form of retreating/camping, trading speed for the coverage of a second shot. The two can be interchanged though: SHL can be used to retreat, and SHDL can be used as an approach, but I dont think one would be as effective as the other in that regard. I really, really do want SHL since it'd lessen the hate against Falco's camping abilities and give the taller chars a chance (though Orca did have a point in that CPing solves that already), but parting with the SHDL would be a hefty price to pay for it... <=/

Having DI with it wouldnt be a buff though, as several characters already can do it. Itd just offer more control over it, so I cant imagine any real objections to that at least.

I hope to test the SHL sometime though. <3

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I will make a much more detailed post after I get back from the tournament today, but I will just leave you all with this.

When I end up 3 stocking Chu's Ice Climbers with little more than just SHDL and a bit of phantasm, you know there's a problem.

 

[Hostility]

I will make a much more detailed post after I get back from the tournament today, but I will just leave you all with this.

When I end up 3 stocking Chu's Ice Climbers with little more than just SHDL and a bit of phantasm, you know there's a problem.

I honestly think the problem for ice climbers is the phantasm and not the lasers as much. SHDL doesn't get you out of any bad spot, and if you are too close to someone and double laser, almost any character can punish off reaction. However the phantasm can get you out of that spot every time. If you want to nerf falco, take the hitbox off the forward B so it doesn't act like a get out of jail free card.

 

[Hostility]

Hmm...Orca does have a point: SHDL is Falco's best tool in regards to pinning his opponent down, especially when it comes to the taller characters. However, I do believe that the precision and approach factor brought about by the SHL and DIable projectiles is something that cant simply be overlooked. Normally, I'd probably say "Why not have both?" but seeing as how people believe that Falco can already camp extremely well, it'd be much more of a buff than anything else (and I havent forgotten how much of a stir his Shine change alone brought about...)

SHL is a very effective approaching method for Falco in that its a faster, more concentrated approach which sacrifices coverage from a second laser for speed and precision, while SHDL is a better form of retreating/camping, trading speed for the coverage of a second shot. The two can be interchanged though: SHL can be used to retreat, and SHDL can be used as an approach, but I dont think one would be as effective as the other in that regard. I really, really do want SHL since it'd lessen the hate against Falco's camping abilities and give the taller chars a chance (though Orca did have a point in that CPing solves that already), but parting with the SHDL would be a hefty price to pay for it... <=/

Having DI with it wouldnt be a buff though, as several characters already can do it. Itd just offer more control over it, so I cant imagine any real objections to that at least.

I hope to test the SHL sometime though. <3

two lasers is a much better approach than one. The first high laser stuffing short hops, and the lower one acting like the SHL in melee, so don't try and pass this off as an offensive buff because it isnt. And if you can't deal with a camping falco who does 4% a short hop or less, then you need to get better. brawl+ doesn't need to be 100% agression, that just makes an extremely shallow game.

 

[GHNeko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diFuBwloEtk

So like...I know who's my Falco counter. <3

oh wait. I already have Marth + Platforms.

...Guess I'm not losing a set to a Falco anytime soon. LOL.

 

[Nybb]

Posted this a page or two late in the Nightly thread back when it was brought up.

I play Falco a lot, and would likely call him a secondary (and a main in vBrawl), and I wouldn't mind trying out Melee-style lasers. As long as they then got a damage buff (back up to 3%?). The total laser output would most certainly not be half that of SHDL. It would probably be more like 2/3rds. In fact, if it was a 2/3 ratio, the total potential damage output would be the same (2 * 3% = 3 * 2%).

It would also give the Falco more control over how he locates his lasers. For example, he would be able to shoot 4 low SHLs in a row that could all hit Kirby, as opposed to SHDLing 3 times, shooting 6 lasers total, and only having three of them hit Kirby. All it does is take off the "easy mode"... with SHDL, there is no reason to not SHDL and the higher laser stops Kirby from jumping. With SHL, if you think Kirby will jump, you have to manually shoot your next laser higher. You get an element of prediction, but there is also more reward in the example above as you could hit Kirby with 4 SHLs = 12% damage if you predicted him correctly. With SHDLs, you just spam them, and if Kirby jumps or doesn't, he will get hit by 3-4 lasers = 6-8%.

I don't really see it as a buff of a nerf, just a change. He would be slightly less **** against large characters, but slightly better against small ones. It makes the Falco work a little harder, but there is a slightly higher reward if he is successful. I think that Falco would be more fun this way personally.

Of course, this is assuming that SHL are fast-fallable and DIable and get a damage buff.

This is all theorybros though. Is there a working code for FF specials and DI-able specials? If there is, we should put together a build and actually give it a try. Only actually seeing it in play is going to change either side's mind one way or the other.

I honestly think the problem for ice climbers is the phantasm and not the lasers as much. SHDL doesn't get you out of any bad spot, and if you are too close to someone and double laser, almost any character can punish off reaction. However the phantasm can get you out of that spot every time. If you want to nerf falco, take the hitbox off the forward B so it doesn't act like a get out of jail free card.

Well first, the goal isn't really to nerf Falco, just to shift his game slightly more towards the aggressive side. Second, I would rather see a change to lasers than a change to side-b. If side-b gets nerfed, you might as well just put down your controller the second you end up off the stage.

 

[GHNeko]

I'm surprised that Falco+ mains aren't ademently against changing a staple tactic that Brawl Falco was born with. lmao.

 

[Hostility]

Well first, the goal isn't really to nerf Falco, just to shift his game slightly more towards the aggressive side. Second, I would rather see a change to lasers than a change to side-b. If side-b gets nerfed, you might as well just put down your controller the second you end up off the stage.

First off, falco can be aggressive as he is now, I do it and I'm sure I'm not unique either. Lasers aren't really the problem if you're against camping either, doing short hop double laser if you're at all within striking distance of anyone is really bad since the second laser comes out so late. And even if you're pretty far away, some characters can punish you for lasering anyway. Sheik can dash attack as you do the first laser or just needle you, wolf can Fsmash, snake can dash attack, fox can running upsmash etc. Forward B lets you get out of situations like this though because it goes through almost anything, can be cancelled at the end to reduce lag so even if they shield it, they can't do anything to punish you. That's why I'm saying to take the hit box off of forward B, if you get rid of falco's get out of jail free card, camping with lasers is pretty useless after your opponent gets in close because once they get in close and you laser you are going to get hit.

And why do you say falco can't recover? If by not recover you mean he can't blow through almost any offstage move, then yes, he won't have a 100% assured recovery if he's horizontal with the stage which is how it should be. Falco did just fine in melee with a garbage recovery that wasn't half as good as the one he has in brawl and even if the forward B in brawl didn't have a hit box, it would still be MUCH better than his forward b was in melee.

I don't want to play melee falco when I play brawl+ and I absolutely can't stand when people keep trying to turn this game into melee, I play brawl+ precisely because it's different from melee, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this. This will never be melee, and I don't want it to be melee, please stop trying to kill what sets brawl+ characters and melee characters apart.

 

[GHNeko]

Lol @ Melee style lasers forcing more aggressive play out of Falco when Falco can already play aggressive enough.

 

[Almas]

Erm, yea, Falco CAN play aggressive. But he can camp so freakin' well that he never has to.

 

[Hostility]

Lol @ Melee style lasers forcing more aggressive play out of Falco when Falco can already play aggressive enough.

You can camp with single lasers too, I dunno why people think single laser = inherently aggressive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj8ro3oLLtk

 

[GHNeko]

Erm, yea, Falco CAN play aggressive. But he can camp so freakin' well that he never has to.

Until someone who knows how to (Character Counterpick / Stage Counterpick / Powershield / Become skilled at dealing with SHDL / Utilize a reflector/bucket/magnet / Outcamp / Cominbation of Previous choices) comes along, Falco really never has to go aggressive I guess. <__>

You can camp with single lasers too, I dunno why people think single laser = inherently aggressive

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mj8ro3oLLtk

I guses because the potency of SHDL is higher for camping than SHL. :/

He can still do it either way, just like Marth can camp with fair.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I'm surprised that Falco+ mains aren't ademently against changing a staple tactic that Brawl Falco was born with. lmao.

Conservatism is overrated.

And yes, Falco can still camp with SHL, however it isn't so "easy mode" as SHDL, and it doesn't completely lock and key a fair number of match-ups as well while still keeping them in his favor.

if you get rid of falco's get out of jail free card, camping with lasers is pretty useless after your opponent gets in close because once they get in close and you laser you are going to get hit.

After your opponent gets in close, you just fight them with Falco's very good and underrated CQC game.

Falco spams those jabs just as well as he can spam lasers .

 

[GHNeko]

Conservatism is overrated.

*GASP* :V!!!

And yes, Falco can still camp with SHL, however it isn't so "easy mode" as SHDL, and it doesn't completely lock and key a fair number of match-ups as well while still keeping them in his favor.

Then I'd rather tweak SHDL to be less easy mode. Rather than abandoning the tactic, work with WBR to make the tactic less effective and/or harder to do.

Hell, one way to make it harder is to tighten up the frames of SHDL to make it near-frame perfect, even with buffer.

Give lasers less stun. See if you can make the lasers shorter (length wise) so there are larger gaps between lasers.

Something. Rather than immediately doing something as drastic as this, work with what you have until options are exhausted. <_>

If you're willing to completely remove the 'alco' in "Falco+" by giving him SHL, I'm sure you're willing enough to **** with SHDL to be less "easy mode" and just worse in general. :V

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Then I'd rather tweak SHDL to be less easy mode. Rather than abandoning the tactic, work with WBR to make the tactic less effective and/or harder to do.

Hell, one way to make it harder is to tighten up the frames of SHDL to make it near-frame perfect, even with buffer.

Give lasers less stun. See if you can make the lasers shorter (length wise) so there are larger gaps between lasers.

Something. Rather than immediately doing something as drastic as this, work with what you have until options are exhausted. <_>

If you're willing to completely remove the 'alco' in "Falco+" by giving him SHL, I'm sure you're willing enough to **** with SHDL to be less "easy mode" and just worse in general. :V

I would be very willing to work something of the sort out with the WBR. If they can come up with a plan that will make SHDL less "easy mode" that is better than SHL, I'm all ears.

 

[GHNeko]

What we have to do is brainstorm every possible way to make SHDL less e-z maad.

Then after that, find out what would be the better choices to reach the goal we want.

Then find out what is possible and what is.

THEN we go to WBR.

Then how difficult those choices are to impliment. What choices can be done. Which ones they're willing to do, etc etc.

If we take this an organized step at the time, we can accomplish what we want to do without taking out something that define's Brawl Falco and makes him completely different than Melee Falco.

Hell, I already gave suggestions. Let's get some more. :V

I personally dont care for Falco and I find him annoying at times, but fun to fight at others, but I'd rather preserve what makes a Brawl character a Brawl character than revert them to their melee counterpart (if they have one lmao)

 

[Shell]

I believe Thunderhorse is referring to E-Z mode in a tactical sense in addition to a technical sense. I don't think making SHDL more difficult (without mechanic changes) is really a solution to anything -- 20 minutes of practice later and we're back here having the same argument.

Reducing laser stun would primarily destroy any actual approach options the lasers have. Even though this could make camping worse inadvertently, it might actually encourage camping more over his now much worse approach game. No thank you.

 

[GHNeko]

Which is why we're brainstorming.

And I mean e-z madd in every sense of the word. lmao.

Come SHeLL, step it up. :V

 

[Almas]

The problem I find is that Falco was given buffs to his approach/combo game in order to motivate him to camp less. Which may be effective in a fun sense, but ultimately a player who is playing with the intention to win isn't really going to change his playstyle. Reducing laser damage doesn't reduce the viability of it.

While you can get around the lasers, it gives you a disadvantageous position when you do get to him, and Falco is well equipped to escape from people who do get close. Shine's large hitbox and Illusion's large power means that after you go through the arduous task of getting close to Falco, if you make a mistake you're back to a neutral position. The fact that he has options to get away does not help either. If he was restricted to the same escape maneuver (or the choices he had had the same weakness), then it would be a lot easier to get into him. To get through reflector you shield->punish. To get through Phantasm you better hope your character has a nice hitbox for the job.
It doesn't help that his Utilt pokes through platforms (and usually shields while he's doing at it), and with its huge speed now it's also a combo starter, making platform approaches a lot weaker. And that he can laser onto most platforms, too.

Laser camping while someone is on the ledge is also very annoying.

I don't think Falco is necessarily overpowered. You can get through his laser storm eventually, and once you do you can hurt him pretty bad for it. But it makes him simply not a fun character to play against if someone is playing to win. And trying to buff other moves to encourage him not to camp just makes him better at no cost. I think increasing the difficulty of performing SHDL goes against the idea of Brawl+ being easy to pick up. Rather, I think it would be best to reduce the effectiveness of his escape options. Increase the end lag on reflector, or the start lag on illusion. Compensate him with a reward for his less used moves. His FTilt, maybe?

Then again I haven't played the more recent versions.

 

[Sneak8288]

i think the reflecting ps idea will solve the whole laser camping problem

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I don't think Falco is necessarily overpowered. You can get through his laser storm eventually, and once you do you can hurt him pretty bad for it. But it makes him simply not a fun character to play against if someone is playing to win. And trying to buff other moves to encourage him not to camp just makes him better at no cost. I think increasing the difficulty of performing SHDL goes against the idea of Brawl+ being easy to pick up. Rather, I think it would be best to reduce the effectiveness of his escape options. Increase the end lag on reflector, or the start lag on illusion. Compensate him with a reward for his less used moves. His FTilt, maybe?

There are underlying problems with nerfing his escape options. If you increase the endlag on the reflector, not only can Falco not combo out of it, but I think I recall that the opponent can leave hitstun and punish Falco for successfully landing the move (which was why the endlag was sped up in the first place). And the problem with doing pretty much anything to the illusion is that while you're addressing the problem of an escape option, you are also inadvertently nerfing Falco's recovery which is really bad enough as it is and doesn't need nor deserve to be worse.

Really, I still can't think of a much better option than getting rid of SHDL for SHL. I'm still open to any ideas anyone else has though.

 

[timothyung]

Increase his special fall landing lag?

 

[grim mouser]

i think the reflecting ps idea will solve the whole laser camping problem

Really, I still can't think of a much better option than getting rid of SHDL for SHL. I'm still open to any ideas anyone else has though.

Both ideas would be good for different reasons, and both would help reduce the laser camping issue a bit.

 

[Bakuryu]

Really, I still can't think of a much better option than getting rid of SHDL for SHL. I'm still open to any ideas anyone else has though.

To be honest as another avid Falco player I can agree with this. I think SHDL is an ok tactic, I personally like the SHL better due to its flexability, especially if its a shffl. Then again I read snipits here an there that people fear he goes to close to his melee version, but really who cares, any Falco player will tell you there not thrilled with what they did to him in Brawl.

 

[JCaesar]

Falco is soooo different than he was in Melee that I don't see why it would be such a big deal to give him Melee-ish lasers...

 

[Nybb]

Almas more or less said what I was going to say. Some in this thread have said "yes Falco is good at camping with SHDL but he can also be played aggressively, so let's not change him." While this is true, it is very rarely not in his best interests to camp. Somebody who is strictly playing to win would be foolish to be aggressive with Falco in most cases.

There are underlying problems with nerfing his escape options. If you increase the endlag on the reflector, not only can Falco not combo out of it, but I think I recall that the opponent can leave hitstun and punish Falco for successfully landing the move (which was why the endlag was sped up in the first place). And the problem with doing pretty much anything to the illusion is that while you're addressing the problem of an escape option, you are also inadvertently nerfing Falco's recovery which is really bad enough as it is and doesn't need nor deserve to be worse.

Really, I still can't think of a much better option than getting rid of SHDL for SHL. I'm still open to any ideas anyone else has though.

This. If a better solution can be found, I would be very willing to try it; however I don't really see a better solution than SHL right now. I think most of the non-laser-based changes would hurt other areas of his game too much, and doing things like making the timing more precise for SHDL don't seem to be like a good idea. Anybody can just crank up the buffer and it is easy again after a few minutes of practice.

To be honest as another avid Falco player I can agree with this. I think SHDL is an ok tactic, I personally like the SHL better due to its flexability, especially if its a shffl. Then again I read snipits here an there that people fear he goes to close to his melee version, but really who cares, any Falco player will tell you there not thrilled with what they did to him in Brawl.

Yeah, it is obvious that the developers tried to nerf Falco along with the rest of the Melee high-tiers. They just happened to do a bad job with Falco in particular lol.

I don't see what the fuss is about changing one of Falco's "staple tactics" from Brawl -- after all, we got rid of MK's staple tactic of ridiculous shuttle loop kills, and we got rid of DDD's staple tactic of ****** your face with grabs.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Think about it this way: Brawl+ is supposed to be an amalgamation of Brawl and Melee, taking the best of both worlds and mixing them into something new and unique. I know you're worried about turning Falco+ into Melee Falco GHNeko, which is a reasonable position to take, but I don't think we could re-create Melee Falco even if we purposefully tried to do so. Even with the Melee lasers, Falco has so many things from Brawl that separates him from his Melee counterpart: one of the best jabs in the game (Falco's jab in Melee was nothing to write home about iirc), a multi-hitting nair which is very solid at shield-pressuring and cross-ups if auto-canceled, an illusion that goes double the distance and is actually useful to use, a dtilt which isn't a kill move, a dthrow which is a combo-er instead of a tech chaser, and most of all the lack of a Fox-esque shine that shoots people upward, which is just as much a staple of Melee Falco's game as the SHL. Adding, to the extent of my knowledge, one singular aspect from Melee into Falco+'s design shouldn't completely revert his character back to his Melee incarnation. Maybe once we start considering giving him Melee Falco's shine (and I hope that never happens), we can raise up a red flag. In fact, giving him SHL would probably make him truer to the Brawl/Melee amalgamation of Brawl+'s nature.

Melee, for as much as I don't particularly enjoy playing it, did a lot of things right. Things that are actually starting to be implemented or have been implemented for other characters for the better imo: Fox's JC shine, Falcon's nipple spike, Ganon's Down B second jump recovery, and I even recall a proposal (and I'm not sure whether it was yours Neko or whether it was GDPS'...and I apologize if I misspelled that name) to make Marth's gravity settings emulate something close to Melee's.

Don't get me wrong, I'm still willing to compromise with anyone willing to come up with a better alternative to tweak the SHDL. But after musing over what could be done at all, nothing that came to my mind is even half as good as SHLs.

 

[Kuga]

Like i said about the Fox things on his Topic,i think taking away Falco SHDL for SHSL will be like Fox.
Falco will lose his Brawl new tatic: SHDL
Fox will lose his Brawl new tatic: Dair>Usmash
Both characters will lose their Brawl thing for a Melee thing.
If Fast falled specias will be add,i think he can have both metods,SHDL and SHSL.
My opinion here is the same as Fox changes.

 

[JCaesar]

So what if it was in Melee? Melee did a lot of stuff right. You shouldn't dismiss something just because it was in Melee. Melee was the inspiration for a lot of the better changes in Brawl+.

Like I said before, Brawl/Brawl+ Falco is so different from Melee Falco that this one Melee thing would not suddenly turn Falco+ into Melee Falco.

If people don't like the idea and have good reason for it, that's fine. But "because it was in Melee" or "because it's one of his staple moves in Brawl" (see: DDD chaingrabs) are not legitimate reasons.

 

[grim mouser]

Unless FF specials would be added without further changes, I'd rather go with SHL over SHDL (assuming FF and DI).

It's more fun, that's for sure. =)

 

[Shell]

Like i said about the Fox things on his Topic,i think taking away Falco SHDL for SHSL will be like Fox.
Falco will lose his Brawl new tatic: SHDL
Fox will lose his Brawl new tatic: Dair>Usmash
Both characters will lose their Brawl thing for a Melee thing.
If Fast falled specias will be add,i think he can have both metods,SHDL and SHSL.
My opinion here is the same as Fox changes.

Just to add on to what JCaesar007 was saying, Fox won't necessarily lose his tactic, either -- If what Shanus says is correct, then Fox has gained Dair -> Shine -> Jump-Cancel -> U-smash. And I agree that Brawl Falco with SHL =/= Melee Falco. Even with the change, he'd still be much further from his old self than most other characters. The introduction of SHDL modified his playstyle a bit, but the removal of pillar-pressuring and vertical Dair/Shine combos is really what separates and defines Brawl Falco from Melee Falco, in my opinion.

Also, just making specials FF-able isn't enough -- without a reduction on special landing lag for the lasers, being able to FF them doesn't really help much, (as we saw with the old single laser test set) SHDL is still the E-Z choice.

I haven't thought of any good SHDL solutions beyond the current old-school-SHL proposition so far. I'll keep thinking about it.

 

[Nybb]

Also, just making specials FF-able isn't enough -- without a reduction on special landing lag for the lasers, being able to FF them doesn't really help much, (as we saw with the old single laser test set) SHDL is still the E-Z choice.

So, is it currently possible to do this? It seems like the majority of people that have spoken up so far are willing to give SHL a chance. If it is possible we should try it out and go from there; this debate can't really go any further than it already has without seeing the proposed changes in action.

 

[Bakuryu]

So, is it currently possible to do this? It seems like the majority of people that have spoken up so far are willing to give SHL a chance. If it is possible we should try it out and go from there; this debate can't really go any further than it already has without seeing the proposed changes in action.

This is a very logical proposition. TBH I think nothing, especially changes that are agreed upon by majority should at least be tested, and not just WBR tested, who says that just because the WBR doesn't like it the public wont? I see no reason stuff like and more shouldn't be tested regardless of if its liked, what if people liked it once it was tried? Thats like me saying I don't like eating certain things because I dont like how it looks/smells, But I never tried it.

 

[Rudra]

I wouldnt mind foregoing SHDL for SHL, but thats just me. I'd rather have both with SHDL being harder to pull off (maybe similar to Melee Fox SHDL or even more stricter? Would buffer make that ineffective?) or less effective. I dont know if it'd be possible to code, but what about making his second laser in the SHDL do 1% damage or none at all to weaken the tactic? (a bit drastic, but thats all I can think of) It'd still be an annoyance, but it would further weaken his camping game. (And, there's also making his hurtbox more vulnerable during Phantasm)

Also, is Fox really getting his JC Shine back?

 

[Kuga]

Also, is Fox really getting his JC Shine back?

Well,most of Fox main dont want,but some people want,because this add more depth.
They are testing this.

 

[JCaesar]

This is a very logical proposition. TBH I think nothing, especially changes that are agreed upon by majority should at least be tested, and not just WBR tested, who says that just because the WBR doesn't like it the public wont? I see no reason stuff like and more shouldn't be tested regardless of if its liked, what if people liked it once it was tried? Thats like me saying I don't like eating certain things because I dont like how it looks/smells, But I never tried it.

Who told you the WBR is against it? If anything, there are more WBR members in favor of testing this out than not. We just need someone to write the code.

Making SHDL difficult to do wouldn't really change anything due to buffer.

 

[shanus]

I wouldnt mind foregoing SHDL for SHL, but thats just me. I'd rather have both with SHDL being harder to pull off (maybe similar to Melee Fox SHDL or even more stricter? Would buffer make that ineffective?) or less effective. I dont know if it'd be possible to code, but what about making his second laser in the SHDL do 1% damage or none at all to weaken the tactic? (a bit drastic, but thats all I can think of) It'd still be an annoyance, but it would further weaken his camping game. (And, there's also making his hurtbox more vulnerable during Phantasm)

Also, is Fox really getting his JC Shine back?

If we do decide to add in the JC shine back, it is paired with a large nerf to his dair. Mixing the two together led to some awesome new combos without fox feeling so "autocombo"

 

[Rudra]

If we do decide to add in the JC shine back, it is paired with a large nerf to his dair. Mixing the two together led to some awesome new combos without fox feeling so "autocombo"

Sounds awesome. A friend of mine dropped Fox earlier because he had auto-combos with his Dair. The return of JC Shine and a nerf to it may bring him back to using him lol.

Also, when it comes to DI'able/FFing specials, will other characters who lack these abilities also get this? It wont make their projectile games as effective as Falco's but it'd still add another method of controling their specials and the user's placement while using them.

 

[ZodiakLucien]

shdl is no where near as good as in melees lasers. In every sense. Camping, combos, approaching everything. Shdl is very easy to get by when close. Like hostility said with a majority of the cast you can just dash attack on reaction when you see the first laser. With metaknight thats like half the stage. The thing is, people dont know how to deal with it yet. They are getting too frustrated and arent testing to find simple ways to get through it. The thing about shdl is that falco can barely move once he starts. He has to commit once he starts the first laser. In melee a lot of characters can run up shield the laser then do an aerial out of shield to outspace the lasers or beat a follow up.
People are trying to do that in brawl+ and are crying nerf when it doesnt work. b+ shdl =\= melee SHL. You have to deal with them differently. Keep gaining ground and punish if he lasers. Some said well once they get in close you can just use falcos good ground game. Well thats true but that means falco isnt camping anymore. He simply made you approach him, thats a big difference people fail to see.
The side b issue is real though. It neglicts any stage you made up when approaching and some characters simply cant stop it without being completely psychic. People complain nerfing it will make it so he wont have a recovery. He will have a recovery, it just wont be nearly as free to get back on the stage. If falco chooses to camp he has to give up stage to do it. Giving up stage means he is closer to the ledge. Close to ledge means higher chance of getting edge guarded. In my mind thats how it should be. Falco should pick his spots on when to be defensive and offensive. Not have it so he HAS to be aggressive or HAS to be defensive.

 

[grim mouser]

Also, couldn't you fire SHL while retreating? That was cool. RAR SHDL just doesn't cut it.