Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0

[Dan_X]

You really played Falco in Melee and think that this Barwl version is too powerful....?

? o_O ?

Trust me, he's fine. Other than his ability to camp certain matchups to death (which we're working on), he's one of the more balanced characters in the game right now -- and that's even including the shine change.

People, let's move on.

This.

QFT!

But there are still characters who have no answer to it. It is also extremely stupid how if you DO clank with it, it still hits you anyway and Falco stops in his tracks. And then OTHER times you clank with it, it actually hits Falco.

It's a dumb move and needs fixuns, you have no idea how huge the hitbox is Sneak and if you did see how big it is, well... you'd probably want to change it in some way.

Obviously I'm not in favor of a change to his side-b as it would only hurt him. However, I do understand why the move is being looked at. If it's changed it should just be easier to time and knock Falco out of-- more akin to Melee I guess. Basically, I still want it to be a difficult move to hit Falco out of, yet at the same time I want skill in countering it to be rewarded-- you know?

If a change to it makes it useless, or drastically weak, that would hurt Falco a TON. His Up+B has terrible range, and his side-b can already be easily gimped by many projectiles. He relies on his side+b 110% to recover, unlike Fox who can at least safely use his up+B as well.

How do you guys plan on tweaking Falco's illusion?

I'm not sure if this is already known.

When other characters get hit by Falco's shine, they get pulled towards and behind Falco's back. So, when I'm on the edge and my opponent is attempting to edgeguard me, I sometimes try to catch them with a ledgehop -> shine. This pulls them off the stage and turns the tables on them. I usually proceed edgeguarding with either b-air or d-air. It's a good surprise move.

Yes, this is known, it's rather useful too! :D

 

[Limeee]

we should talk about out of d-throw comob options (sorry if this was already talked about but i'm not going thrrough 22 pages of discussion >.>)

it's been a while but i think that these work

Dthrow - DACUS
Dthrow- lazorz
Dthrow - dash attack - dair (offstage)
Dthrow - reflector (trip) - Dthrow

disucss

 

[Sneak8288]

we should talk about out of d-throw comob options (sorry if this was already talked about but i'm not going thrrough 22 pages of discussion >.>)

it's been a while but i think that these work

Dthrow - DACUS
Dthrow- lazorz
Dthrow - dash attack - dair (offstage)
Dthrow - reflector (trip) - Dthrow

disucss

yea most of those have been discussed already and i think instead of a offstage dair after the dash attack u might be able to fsmash depending on DI and/or percentage

 

[Dan_X]

we should talk about out of d-throw comob options (sorry if this was already talked about but i'm not going thrrough 22 pages of discussion >.>)

it's been a while but i think that these work

Dthrow - DACUS
Dthrow- lazorz
Dthrow - dash attack - dair (offstage)
Dthrow - reflector (trip) - Dthrow

disucss

Yeah. DACUS is one of the more effective follow ups- especially at slightly higher percents where the enemy is KBed further.

One of the problems is, depending on the character and percent, many times your opponent will be able to DI away, at an arc into the stage, teching upon touching the stage. Their tech invincibility frames nullify many follow up options. I've found that a pretty safe way at punishing their tech is Nair, or dash attacking late (running at them and waiting till they've started their tech before you initiate the attack, so that it strikes them when their invincibility frames end.

Dthrow to Dair spike is also rather difficult to pull off a high percents as the enemy can DI away much further than you can chase with the spike. The Dthrow to spike works better at lower percents as a gimp.

As a side note, speaking of spiking, Falco's Dtilt is great in that it leads into a spike (generally more reliably than dthrow especially at higher percents). It pops the enemy up and away a bit, within spiking range. A good way to land a Dtilt is to jab once then Dtilt. It's not guaranteed, as it can be shielded, but it's generally surprising.

EDIT:

You can avoid the CG completely (Dthrow I'm assuming is what you're talking about) by DI'ing up and in but, be careful, Sheik WILL Bair you.

Hmm, I'm not so sure this is entirely accurate, from what I've experienced through gameplay, jab resets make the CG legitimate. This works better on some characters over others. Depending on the character, you can keep the CG going for 3-4+ regrabs. What you do is jab right after the Dthrow, canceling the enemies knockback, then dash re-grab, and repeat. On some characters this however doesn't work well, at least, especially at slightly higher percents-- as they can DI away faster than you can get the jab out.

The jab to regrab is actually a great follow up of the Dthrow.. as it continues the pain.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Dthrow - DACUS
Dthrow- lazorz
Dthrow - dash attack - dair (offstage)
Dthrow - reflector (trip) - Dthrow

You missed Dthrow -> IAP. Ideal for if the opponent thinks he's smart by DIing down. I usually catch them just before they hit the ground, spiking them into the ground and following up with your tech chase of choice. Works best (for me) starting but not limited to mid-percents when you know you can't follow up with anything else before your opponent hits the ground and techs. Gotta be careful about how far you go though.

 

[Dan_X]

You missed Dthrow -> IAP. Ideal for if the opponent thinks he's smart by DIing down. I usually catch them just before they hit the ground, spiking them into the ground and following up with your tech chase of choice. Works best (for me) starting but not limited to mid-percents when you know you can't follow up with anything else before your opponent hits the ground and techs. Gotta be careful about how far you go though.

Okay, now I feel like an idiot . What is "IAP?" Perhaps I already do whatever this is but don' t know said specified term for it... lol.

 

[Rudra]

Instant Aerial Phantasm

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Okay, now I feel like an idiot . What is "IAP?" Perhaps I already do whatever this is but don' t know said specified term for it... lol.

IAP = Instant Aerial Phantasm.

In case you're not familiar with the technique, it's pretty much just jumping and doing the aerial version of the phantasm as close together as possible. If done correctly, it looks like you're simply traveling on the ground, however it acts with the (more useful) properties of the aerial phantasm and the endlag is cut down dramatically, to the point where the move is almost nigh-lagless.

I assume you did know what the Instant Aerial Phantasm was however, I just felt like covering all my bases just in case

 

[Dan_X]

Instant Aerial Phantasm

Isn't that when you jump and immediately do a phantasm? If it is I do this.. As shown in the specials section.

If I'm correct with what it is i'll be editting the phantasm section of the guide to include the term and acronym.

Thanks!

 

[Dan_X]

IAP = Instant Aerial Phantasm.

In case you're not familiar with the technique, it's pretty much just jumping and doing the aerial version of the phantasm as close together as possible. If done correctly, it looks like you're simply traveling on the ground, however it acts with the (more useful) properties of the aerial phantasm and the endlag is cut down dramatically, to the point where the move is almost nigh-lagless.

I assume you did know what the Instant Aerial Phantasm was however, I just felt like covering all my bases just in case

Thanks for clarifying!! Yeah, I've known about this forever! I just never knew it had a term.. Haha. I guess I should have payed more attention to the vBrawl Falco thread.. as I'm sure it was named there.

•sorry if this is a double post.. I'm using my iPod to browse!

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Ignore this post. Gotta be more patient before replying.

 

[Wavedash Master]

Against this is a Falco thread, and there is fair amount of Falco users, I wanted to stop by to ask a question.

In the recent wee-- nightly build, a sandbag has been implemented into the Wifi Waiting Room. There has been discussion on the viable of this stage lately.

Here is the question, how badly does this stage hurt Falco? (The only thing I can think of is his ability to approach with his lasers, but this is where you guys come in).

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Against this is a Falco thread, and there is fair amount of Falco users, I wanted to stop by to ask a question.

In the recent wee-- nightly build, a sandbag has been implemented into the Wifi Waiting Room. There has been discussion on the viable of this stage lately.

Here is the question, how badly does this stage hurt Falco? (The only thing I can think of is his ability to approach with his lasers, but this is where you guys come in).

It hurts alot.

I just came from a fairly small tournament that I placed 3rd in. During the losers finals round against 2nd place JCaesar, our first match was on WiFi waiting room, Falco vs Squirtle. The match was completely horrendous. The sandbag completely stopped not only my most useful camping tool dead on the spot, but also my best approaching tool. Combined with the fact that Squirtle's naturally pretty hard to hit with the lasers, has a crawl, and the fact that JCaesar (rightfully) exploited the sandbag to get protection/free Water Gun charges, it was much harder than normal to try to fight him. If correctly used by opponents who know when to take cover behind the sandbag, it's a huge hindrance to the crux of Falco's game.

The videos will be up on Youtube sometime soon I imagine. I think those were the only matches recorded of me during the entire tournament. I'm sure you'll see just exactly how horrible a stage for Falco this is firsthand. I'd rather be taken to Wario Ware/Luigi's than WiFi Room now.

Ok maybe not Luigi's .

 

[JCaesar]

It hurts alot.

I just came from a fairly small tournament that I placed 3rd in. During the losers finals round against 2nd place JCaesar, our first match was on WiFi waiting room, Falco vs Squirtle. The match was completely horrendous. The sandbag completely stopped not only my most useful camping tool dead on the spot, but also my best approaching tool. Combined with the fact that Squirtle's naturally pretty hard to hit with the lasers, has a crawl, and the fact that JCaesar (rightfully) exploited the sandbag to get protection/free Water Gun charges, it was much harder than normal to try to fight him. If correctly used by opponents who know when to take cover behind the sandbag, it's a huge hindrance to the crux of Falco's game.

The videos will be up on Youtube sometime soon I imagine. I think those were the only matches recorded of me during the entire tournament. I'm sure you'll see just exactly how horrible a stage for Falco this is firsthand. I'd rather be taken to Wario Ware/Luigi's than WiFi Room now.

Ok maybe not Luigi's .

<3

I exploited the **** out of that sandbag. And you said Falco can be played without lasers...

 

[Rudra]

He could, but its still the best tool in his arsenal lol. I havent played the build with the sandbag yet, but I wonder:

If it has taken enough damage, would the Shine be a good way to get it out of the way without the trouble of smashing it/using aerials on it?

 

[Dan_X]

It hurts alot.

I just came from a fairly small tournament that I placed 3rd in. During the losers finals round against 2nd place JCaesar, our first match was on WiFi waiting room, Falco vs Squirtle. The match was completely horrendous. The sandbag completely stopped not only my most useful camping tool dead on the spot, but also my best approaching tool. Combined with the fact that Squirtle's naturally pretty hard to hit with the lasers, has a crawl, and the fact that JCaesar (rightfully) exploited the sandbag to get protection/free Water Gun charges, it was much harder than normal to try to fight him. If correctly used by opponents who know when to take cover behind the sandbag, it's a huge hindrance to the crux of Falco's game.

The videos will be up on Youtube sometime soon I imagine. I think those were the only matches recorded of me during the entire tournament. I'm sure you'll see just exactly how horrible a stage for Falco this is firsthand. I'd rather be taken to Wario Ware/Luigi's than WiFi Room now.

Ok maybe not Luigi's .

Eek, that sounds rough man. I haven't played on the wifi waiting room yet as when I first tried it and saw the sandbag I thought it was a glitch so I played a diff. level instead.

I'm going to play exclusively on this map later... gonna see this first hand.

I'd love to see a video JCeaser, do oyu have any of said match?

As for how I feel about the sandbag, I'm indifferent. I think it's neat that it can be strategically implemented, I actually like the idea--- even if it makes it more difficult for Falco. However, it depends to what degree it shuts out characters with projectiles. The sandbag is unlike everything in the game, it's unlike every element on counterpick stages, so it is interesting to say the least.

I'd like to think Falco can still do well with out his lasers... to a degree. I mean, the enemy has to approach eventually... bah, I'll check this out in gameplay later.

 

[JCaesar]

I have a ton of videos to put up but it should be up sometime this week hopefully.

The sandbag is no different than the pillars on Luigi's mansion or any of the many other stage parts with hurtboxes, except that it isn't stationary. I think people just have this "item" stigma about it and automatically think it's stupid without even giving it a chance, when it actually adds a lot of strategic value.

 

[Dan_X]

"The sandbag is no different than the pillars on Luigi's mansion or any of the many other stage parts with hurtboxes, except that it isn't stationary. I think people just have this "item" stigma about it and automatically think it's stupid without even giving it a chance, when it actually adds a lot of strategic value." - JCaesar

yeah, that's why I'm not particularly against it. I have no problem that it's an item. Even if it does make things difficult for Falco it still adds a layer of depth to the level-- and I'm not opposed to this. I still haven't had a chance to play much here, I will soon though.

 

[Kaitou Ace]

I'd just like to point out how important and good Falco's DACUS is, especially in B+. If you're homing in with lasers and putting the pressure on the opponent, when you're halfway through like FD or whatever, throw in a DACUS and put the hurt on them. It goes a hax distance and is great. It has many other uses such as simply traveling to your opponent faster in a way that's harder to stop. Use it, love it.

 

[Rudra]

As nice as his DACUS is, I cant even stand moving anywhere over 2 buffer frames when using him (Which I find strange, since I play Wolf on 5 frames) because of how akward he feels above that to me. =/

 

[leafgreen386]

As nice as his DACUS is, I cant even stand moving anywhere over 2 buffer frames when using him (Which I find strange, since I play Wolf on 5 frames) because of how akward he feels above that to me. =/

Well, lucky for you, buffer doesn't affect DACUS. You need to be able to get from dash attack to usmash within a certain frame window, and buffer won't help you do that.

 

[Rudra]

**** it, you beat me back here. A friend just told me that awhile ago. Hahahaha...now I feel a bit embarassed for that one.

 

[JCaesar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bmowl-J88s

Here it is, me abusing the sandbag on WWR vs Thunderhorse's Falco. Oddly though, he did worse on both his counterpick stages, Smashville and Battlefield (it was Loser's finals, best of 5). I guess that's just proof that the sandbag is far from broken, and I can't think of any other character it would shut down more than Falco.

 

[leafgreen386]

Thunderhorse could've just sat on the other side of the sandbag in the beginning and waited for you to approach, since he was in the lead at that point. Ironically, it seems the sandbag will only encourage camping, rather than reduce it. Trying to approach through it and suffering the extra hitlag seems to put you at the disadvantage, giving the opponent extra time to respond to your approach and to counter appropriately. The sandbag most certainly reduces projectile effectiveness, but it encourages camping more than any other legal brawl+ stage imo.

 

[shanus]

Thunderhorse could've just sat on the other side of the sandbag in the beginning and waited for you to approach, since he was in the lead at that point. Ironically, it seems the sandbag will only encourage camping, rather than reduce it. Trying to approach through it and suffering the extra hitlag seems to put you at the disadvantage, giving the opponent extra time to respond to your approach and to counter appropriately. The sandbag most certainly reduces projectile effectiveness, but it encourages camping more than any other legal brawl+ stage imo.

Not entirely true. Approaching through the sandbag with multihit moves for additional hitlag can be super beneficial as well. With that said, JCz is a campy campy squirtle I guess it comes from his ROB roots.

 

[JCaesar]

In the middle of that match I remember saying something like, "I'm not afraid to time out a Falco."

I'm sorry that removing lasers from the equation cripples his approach game so much, but I will gladly abuse it I hate Falco.

 

[Dan_X]

In the middle of that match I remember saying something like, "I'm not afraid to time out a Falco."

I'm sorry that removing lasers from the equation cripples his approach game so much, but I will gladly abuse it I hate Falco.

LoL. It's okay that you enjoy abusing something that makes sense. It's completely understandable why you;d hate Falco, he's a jerk. His lasers anger people to no end, haha.

I have yet to have much gameplay on this level, as last I played my more casual friends were involved, and we played it more 'party' style.-- lame.

 

[Tsukizukun]

I think his Laser-cancels are not that overpowered but the Laser-cancels in Brawl+ are too easy, actually it could be like in Melee, there it's not that easy and powerful enough. That's just my opinion, I'm maining Falco by the way, but since Falco can use Laser-cancels that easy, it doesn't make really fun to play Falco anymore because of the flamers ;D

 

[Vayseth]

Falco's a great character that I don't think everyone knows how to play just yet.

 

[Revven]

Falco's a great character that I don't think everyone knows how to play just yet.

Something you'd like to tell other Falcos that they might not know about yet?

 

[Nybb]

I think his Laser-cancels are not that overpowered but the Laser-cancels in Brawl+ are too easy, actually it could be like in Melee, there it's not that easy and powerful enough. That's just my opinion, I'm maining Falco by the way, but since Falco can use Laser-cancels that easy, it doesn't make really fun to play Falco anymore because of the flamers ;D

I'd just like to pipe in and say that I agree with this. B+ Falco's SH double pew-pew just feels like easy mode to me. I would really like to try him out with Melee-style lasers, i.e. still lagless but fast-fallable and you can only do one in a SH. Plus a damage buff obviously. The end result would be the same damage output but more control over lasers and less being gay.

 

[jalued]

I'd just like to pipe in and say that I agree with this. B+ Falco's SH double pew-pew just feels like easy mode to me. I would really like to try him out with Melee-style lasers, i.e. still lagless but fast-fallable and you can only do one in a SH. Plus a damage buff obviously. The end result would be the same damage output but more control over lasers and less being gay.

fully support

 

[Thunderhorse+]

3rding Melee lasers.

Also slash effect uair for lolzMelee kicks

 

[Rudra]

4th'ing Melee SHL. Though I also want DI with them (among other specials) so that he could still do a FHTL and control it while rising and falling. (FHQL may be possible in B+)

 

[Sneak8288]

If you could fast fall falcos lasers it would make him ALOT faster while approaching and ppl will cry about it being broken

 

[Thunderhorse+]

Either that or get camped to high hell with SHDL and ppl will (/have already) cry(/ied) about it being broken.

Pick your poison.

 

[Nybb]

If you could fast fall falcos lasers it would make him ALOT faster while approaching and ppl will cry about it being broken

But I think this is a good thing. Making Falco move faster while approaching actually gives him a reason to approach in the first place. With the lasers as they are now, there is really no reason to ever approach in a majority of matchups/stages. Melee lasers start to shift Falco's game away from camping, offer more precision, and introduce a tiny bit of tech skill. Obviously he would still be able to camp very well; it just wouldn't be his only viable option in most scenarios like it is now.

 

[JCaesar]

I brought this up a while ago in the Nightly Builds thread and it got shot down (though I think it was only by one vocal Falco main and maybe a WBR member).

I agree with you guys though. Falco should have DIable and FFable SHL, but should only be able to shoot 1 per SH. It makes his camping less effective and his approach game more effective. That seems like win/win to me.

If you guys really want this, BE MORE VOCAL ABOUT IT! That's how you get things done around here.

 

[Thunderhorse+]

I brought this up a while ago in the Nightly Builds thread and it got shot down (though I think it was only by one vocal Falco main and maybe a WBR member).

Any good reason that they didn't agree with the proposal, other than the old and tired "Falco is fine as he is" logic that gets thrown around as much as the "depth argument? The one time I pitched the idea in the Nightly Builds thread and when Nybb pitched this hear, so far I have not heard one dissenter from Falco main and non-Falco main alike. Even the people who thought Falco was fine the way he is didn't put up a fight iirc most likely because it would be a general nerf to Falco.

I said in the Nightly Build thread that I wanted to push this when there was less commotion, and sure enough when I presented it, it was ignored after a page or two. Probably because of Ness talk as always. Now actually seems like a very good time though, with the WBR mainly waiting for Plan SA and discussing little in the way of changes other than Marth changes and JC Fox Shine (another seemly popular idea brought back from Melee. JCaesar, pull some strings and get shanus to make a test build of that ). THERE ARE NO NESSES TO STAND IN OUR WAY THIS TIME!

BE MORE VOCAL ABOUT IT!

Vocalvocalvocalvocal.

 

[JCaesar]

OK...

I posted this:

I'd be fine with Falco keeping all his buffed combo moves if we got rid of SHDL. I'd even gladly let him have DIable + fastfall lasers (Melee style basically) if he could only shoot one per short hop. It's not even a big nerf and it doesn't hurt his approach game AT ALL, it only makes him a less homo camper against tall characters.

Then leafgreen, Blank Mauser, and several other people agreed and not much else was said about it for a few pages. Then...

My God. I hate when one thing leads to another, just by mentioning a character, and suddenly we have an idea as extreme as this.

JCaesar, don't get me wrong, but this is a terrible idea. Taking away Falco's SHDL would completely change Falco. In addition, it would hurt his approach game, I don't see how you could possible say it wouldn't. Just because something is "annoying" doesn't mean we should remove it. I'm sure many of you who agreed to this idea all have on thing in common, you hate dealing with a Falco and his lasers. That's what makes him Falco in Brawl+, that's his signature style. To remove that is to remove the essence of the character I love so much. I don't want a "Melee Style" Falco, I want a Brawl style Falco. To remove SHDL is to remove a technique from Falco, and a very important one. Not only is it his counter to larger characters, but it is important in every matchup. His higher laser helps in the event that the enemy tries to avoid the lower one by jumping. Simply put, it's a very important pressuring tool. It's also a useful edgeguard. SHDL isn't the best option at all times as in certain matchups SHLs are better-- namely for extremely short characters. In general, SHL lasers are great for other things, like firing off a retreating laser on an approaching enemy creativing an opening for yourself. To remove SHDL is actually removing a ton of depth from Falco, which would be an utter travesty.

I'm truly sorry that Falco shuts down bigger characters, but that's where counter picked levels and maining secondaries comes into play. Plenty of characters have it made in the shade versus bigger characters as it is, Falco isn't much different. His laser has already been nerfed as it is...

Falco is not #1 in Brawl, nor will he be #1 in Brawl+ with his SHDL, and yet some of you would like to nerf him on the basis of "homo camping?" It's not a matter of camping. I don't camp unless I need to. I'm aggressive with Falco, using retreating and advancing SHDLs and SHLs. The only time I outright CAMP is when I face Peach, and that's because she wrecks him otherwise... play to win, right? Plenty of characters have specific counters to the lasers. Kirby can use Falco's lasers against him, most characters can crawl avoiding most of, if not all of his laser spam. Bowser can now crawl through laser spam. Fox and Wolf have reflectors. Ness and Lucas can absorb it. Pit can deflect it with both side+B and down+B. Zelda can reflect it with neutral B. Plenty of characters have some means to handle the laser spam to a degree.

I for one have mained Falco since Brawl. Taking away the SHDL would take so much of what I like about Falco away from him--- which is saddening because it's taking away a unique aspect of the game. Though other characters also have unique projectiles, he's the only one who's metagame has created ATs such as SHDL; i.e. he plays far differently than other projectile characters. Removing his SHDL would make him more bland, more like the other projectile based classes like Pit. It simply ruins the diversity of the game. If a change like this happens, then I have officially lost all faith in Brawl+.

it takes away a single laser. how the **** is that game breaking?

it is a fast and efficient way of shutting down the opponent's options. Talk to any Falco main in Brawl.

you can do the same thing with a single laser in your sh. the lasers have enough stun now that one shot instead of two isn't going to make that big of a difference.

idk. As a previous Falco main in Brawl, I will say that two is much, much better and useful than one.
Take my word for it, taking away his 2nd laser makes him lose his advantage as a projectile spammer.

But you can look at it your way too, i suppose.

A few months ago, I remember TESTING a build where SHDL was taken out.

It ruined Falco.

You're still changing the staple tactic of a character that has been played like that since the release of Brawl. <_>

So suddenly everyone is against it now. Luckily Shell comes in with some semblance of reason.

You can't really judge anything from that experimental build a while back because the landing lag from FFing the single laser was still at it's full vanilla value. Of course this would ruin Falco. Additionally, I'm not even sure that we had FF specials on then. If we did implement something like this again, we would do it right -- but we're not going to shove anything down anyone's throats if they don't like it.

Regardless, it is my opinion that we should implement PS reflect first, and then if anything is still a little too spammable, address that individually afterward.

Edit: Orca, I think that Melee lasers were just as good, possibly better at approaching (They seemed to have a bit more hitlag or something, but I admit I could be making things up). You also bring up the "argument" of uniqueness -- I think a SHFF'd projectile is still completely different than most projectiles in the game. Overall I think it'd be more different than necessarily a nerf. I understand that changing things for the sake of changing things, especially when considering the Melee-stigma, is usually to be avoided. However, this is immensely far from being coded let alone even tested. Please try not to over-react to these discussions of fleeting possibilities.

So that's pretty much how it went when I brought it up in the Nightly Builds thread.

Now the question to you mainstream Falco+ mains is, who do you agree with? Orca has good points but I believe I do too. Or better yet, come up with arguments of your own and present them to the WBR for why this change should be tested.

And yell. A lot. Look what it did for the Ness mains.