Sneak8288
Smash Champion
Falco Ditto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS9Fjhh7LdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mS9Fjhh7LdM
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Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0
- Thread starter Thunderhorse+
- Start date
I had actually thought that this matchup was a bit more in Fox's favor or relatively even between the two. I do agree that Falco is definately going to be playing a more defensive game since Fox will be in your face more often than not. While Fox has an easier time setting up juggles with his Dair/Nair>Utilt, he can be juggled just as effectively should he fail to DI a well spaced Shine or doesnt tech a Dair (which could lead to our own Utilt combos 
)
Nair is still a decent approach option, as your opponent will have to guess as to whether or not you'll use your momentum to cross up their shield, or if you will fall just slightly out of their shieldgrab range on the final hit. Generally though, Dair and Bair will be used more to get him juggled or sent offstage.
While I think that Falco has a superior defensive, ranged game to Fox, Fox's Combo (and kill)potential is what could make this matchup either even, or slightly in his favor. If Fox is at a distance, Lasers and well spaced shines will make it difficult to get close, and when he does get in your face, aerials and jabs (especially jab>Grab/Tilts) can reset the spacing between the two quickly, or open up a possible chance to combo him a bit.
I think its 50:50/45:55 (Fox) between the two. Fox can set up juggles and kills easier, but Falco's defensive game makes it difficult to do while still keeping the potential to combo him too.
)Nair is still a decent approach option, as your opponent will have to guess as to whether or not you'll use your momentum to cross up their shield, or if you will fall just slightly out of their shieldgrab range on the final hit. Generally though, Dair and Bair will be used more to get him juggled or sent offstage.
While I think that Falco has a superior defensive, ranged game to Fox, Fox's Combo (and kill)potential is what could make this matchup either even, or slightly in his favor. If Fox is at a distance, Lasers and well spaced shines will make it difficult to get close, and when he does get in your face, aerials and jabs (especially jab>Grab/Tilts) can reset the spacing between the two quickly, or open up a possible chance to combo him a bit.
I think its 50:50/45:55 (Fox) between the two. Fox can set up juggles and kills easier, but Falco's defensive game makes it difficult to do while still keeping the potential to combo him too.
CO18
Smash Hero
You should discuss ganon.
King Funk
Int. Croc. Alligator
Hey Orca, do you any news about our combo video?
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
I actually have a video against ganon i can put up. The match up isnt too hard since you can control things with lasers but once you get hit you can kiss your stock goodbye. Warlock kick is ridiculous and will kill you at low percents if DIed wrong and its dam near impossible to edge guard gannons up b. The hit box is weird. If anyone wants to add to that please do.
Speed-hugging the edge is usually your best bet for edgeguarding a Ganon. Bair if he gets back onto the stage, and repeat.
The grab range on his UpB combined with that ridiculous "punch you in the taint through the stage" uppercut makes traditional edgeguarding from above difficult without some kind of disjoint.
Should be noted that if you aren't fast enough with the grabbing the edge, Ganon can Murder Choke suicide quite easily assuming he's positioned properly.
Don't take Ganon lightly. He is easy to spam to death if not played right, however Ganon can hit you 3-4 times and easily tack on 50% or take a stock due to Falco's physics and poor recovery.
The grab range on his UpB combined with that ridiculous "punch you in the taint through the stage" uppercut makes traditional edgeguarding from above difficult without some kind of disjoint.
Should be noted that if you aren't fast enough with the grabbing the edge, Ganon can Murder Choke suicide quite easily assuming he's positioned properly.
Don't take Ganon lightly. He is easy to spam to death if not played right, however Ganon can hit you 3-4 times and easily tack on 50% or take a stock due to Falco's physics and poor recovery.
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GFdtHkY4W4
this was a wifi vid but still pretty much shows what i was talking about
this was a wifi vid but still pretty much shows what i was talking about
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
if it wasnt wifi i woulda teched alot more and wouldnt been off the stage as much
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
What do you guys think of Fox vs Falco.
Falco's dair shuts down fox's nair approach and Falco's lasers are much better than Fox's. It's really hard for Fox to get inside but once he does it's pretty bad for Falco. Fox can gimp Falco pretty nicely as well. I think they go even.
Thoughts?
Edit:...apparently you guys already talked about it...*runs away*
Falco's dair shuts down fox's nair approach and Falco's lasers are much better than Fox's. It's really hard for Fox to get inside but once he does it's pretty bad for Falco. Fox can gimp Falco pretty nicely as well. I think they go even.
Thoughts?
Edit:...apparently you guys already talked about it...*runs away*
CO18
Smash Hero
Falco vs Ganon is 6:4 or 65:35, more or less on certain stages. I play it all the time with my best friend who mains him. Really hard for ganon to stop laser spam but yeah a few hits from ganon and falco is basically dead very soon and ganon can edgeguard him pretty well but overall if falco plays smart he should win(until they fix ganon's side b so you can't tech it :D).
I use peach in the matchup for now.
I use peach in the matchup for now.
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
nah... its the teching system that lets you tech it... i remember shanus posting about it in our thread... not much they can do about it without changing the whole system
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
very tru... but without it he's ALOt worse... but its no worse than squirtles
CO18
Smash Hero
How good do you guys think Falco is? He's top 6 IMO.
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
imo...
Fox/Squirtle
Luigi
Falco
Sheik
MK
Fox/Squirtle
Luigi
Falco
Sheik
MK
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
wario should be above falco
_Yes!_
Smash Hero
Marth is horribly overrated. MK is good but not THAT good. Fox ***** mk.
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
lol wtf mk?... what game are you playing
Kaitou Ace
Smash Apprentice
Let's keep it related to Falco. Falco is a great character but he's really hurt by his lack of combo options. If not for his new shine he would've been worse off. Everything has to begin or eventually lead into a utilt because that's the ideal way to get somebody in the air.
However, I've been playing a lot more Falco lately and I think that he does fine within the boxing range. His first jab almost or has the same range as his ftilt. I jab-> ftilt then go back to laser camping. Dtilt also has it's uses as sometimes I like to dash attack then dcdtilt into dair. However, that's only if my opponent is going to except that I'm going to try to utilt.
After every combo, I finish it off with one laser, just to be fancy 8D
However, I've been playing a lot more Falco lately and I think that he does fine within the boxing range. His first jab almost or has the same range as his ftilt. I jab-> ftilt then go back to laser camping. Dtilt also has it's uses as sometimes I like to dash attack then dcdtilt into dair. However, that's only if my opponent is going to except that I'm going to try to utilt.
After every combo, I finish it off with one laser, just to be fancy 8D
Dan_X
Smash Lord
Honestly, it's really hard to say. Falco plays fairly similar to how he always did. By no means is that a bad thing. Falco is just fine as is. The thing is, many other characters play far more differently now in Brawl+ than in vBrawl. Who knows how he fairs against the other characters. I mean, obviously he has great matchuos. With that said, he also has some crappy ones. Either way, it's really difficult to speculate a tier list position because that's all we're doing, speculating. Only time will tell. Tournaments are the only way we'll ever know.
I play very similar to this.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Falco boards. ph00tbag and knuxrouge are questioning why Falco got a new shine. Could you come over to the Competitive play discussion thread? They believe you aren't trying hard enough.
While I probably am in no position to say this...
Falco boards have defended this change for ages. People will come to challenge it, Falco boards will say what they say almost by verbatim, and the "opposers" (apparently not a word -_-) may or may not understand, but what's said is said. In the end most people will feel the same way they have before the arguments were made.
Basically, the arguments have all been done before, trying to get people to understand is really sorta pointless. I believe you should get past points arguing about the new shine being kept together and make a neutral, somewhat automated response to link to when this is brought up.
Because all these arguments do is create a clutter and increase post count; neither side has a "good enough" argument for the change to go either way.
I didn't want to sound condescending, just wanted to post my thoughts on this since I see opposition on Falco's shine a lot (btw I hate Falco lol).
metaXzero
Smash Champion
I can't copy paste right now, so someone else would have to do that.
I've gathered a few of them from this thread and from the "Brawl+ is getting out of hand" topic from some time ago. Should I bring them there, or post what Ive gathered here first? (I hope I didnt miss anything)
metaXzero
Smash Champion
^You can if you want to. Though leafgreen just made a post saying it won't ever be changed due to the amount of time it's been in.
Jos
Smash Rookie
I love falco and he will always be my favorite character, but the new shine is just to much. Balancing and improving game mechanics is one thing, changing the fundamental way a move behaves into a complete different move is much different...
Of course falco mains defend this move because it is AMAZING!
I've played falco since melee but this move is just to much, it makes falco to powerful. Anyone who can't see that isn't playing falco correctly or doesn't want to admit it because they want to keep the **** tool.
Of course falco mains defend this move because it is AMAZING!
I've played falco since melee but this move is just to much, it makes falco to powerful. Anyone who can't see that isn't playing falco correctly or doesn't want to admit it because they want to keep the **** tool.
Shell
Flute-Fox Only
- Joined
- Feb 7, 2007
- Messages
- 2,042
You really played Falco in Melee and think that this Barwl version is too powerful....?
? o_O ?
Trust me, he's fine. Other than his ability to camp certain matchups to death (which we're working on), he's one of the more balanced characters in the game right now -- and that's even including the shine change.
People, let's move on.
? o_O ?
Trust me, he's fine. Other than his ability to camp certain matchups to death (which we're working on), he's one of the more balanced characters in the game right now -- and that's even including the shine change.
People, let's move on.
Jos
Smash Rookie
^^^This ^.^
I think this version is fine except for the way the shine is. His abusable recovery keeps him somewhat balanced IMO but that is the only thing keeping him from god tier atm. To me the shine is a great tool...and if they ever add fast fall B specials, a falco with this shine and shffdl... Haha I will play as no other character then!
If there is a way to balance it so he can't play the "get camped to death or get combo'd to death" game so effectively I'm all for keeping the shine, I'm curious as to what the balance will be though.
Good to hear something is being worked on for the camping though, I was worried for a bit there.
BEES
Smash Lord
He's very strong on stage. Stronger than most characters. His recovery is pretty bad though. Get him below the stage slightly and he's not coming back.
Sort of like a less extreme version of Olimar.
Sort of like a less extreme version of Olimar.
tsunami70875
Smash Journeyman
as i was playing falco today, it seemed that his vBrawl chaingrab works perfectly well against charizard until like 50%
is it just me? if not, who else does this happen to?
is it just me? if not, who else does this happen to?
I think you can DI down+away and tech it.
Speaking of CGs, I think that Sheik can CG Falco (and Fox) at low/mid percents.
Revven
FrankerZ
You can avoid the CG completely (Dthrow I'm assuming is what you're talking about) by DI'ing up and in but, be careful, Sheik WILL Bair you.
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
I think falcos side be camping thing is pretty overrated. Its so easy for someone to knock you out of it already that if u change it to be even worse your makin any back throw off the stage into an instant gimp unless the opponent sucks at edgeguarding.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgHokAWO_hs this match even shows when he tries to camp using side b he gets hit out of it almost everytime
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgHokAWO_hs this match even shows when he tries to camp using side b he gets hit out of it almost everytime
Revven
FrankerZ
But there are still characters who have no answer to it. It is also extremely stupid how if you DO clank with it, it still hits you anyway and Falco stops in his tracks. And then OTHER times you clank with it, it actually hits Falco.
It's a dumb move and needs fixuns, you have no idea how huge the hitbox is Sneak and if you did see how big it is, well... you'd probably want to change it in some way.
Sneak8288
Smash Champion
i dont think changing the hitbox would stop the camping. if anything you should just put more lag at the end of and that should get rid of camping without hurting recovery so much
Cero
Smash Lord
I'm not sure if this is already known.
When other characters get hit by Falco's shine, they get pulled towards and behind Falco's back. So, when I'm on the edge and my opponent is attempting to edgeguard me, I sometimes try to catch them with a ledgehop -> shine. This pulls them off the stage and turns the tables on them. I usually proceed edgeguarding with either b-air or d-air. It's a good surprise move.
It also reminds me of Melee Bowser's ledgehop -> klaw -> b-throw. (not as effective, though)
Like, in this vid:
DJNintendo(Bowser) vs PKMVodka(Marth) 3 SPOC7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xy84UdD094#t=5m19s
When other characters get hit by Falco's shine, they get pulled towards and behind Falco's back. So, when I'm on the edge and my opponent is attempting to edgeguard me, I sometimes try to catch them with a ledgehop -> shine. This pulls them off the stage and turns the tables on them. I usually proceed edgeguarding with either b-air or d-air. It's a good surprise move.
It also reminds me of Melee Bowser's ledgehop -> klaw -> b-throw. (not as effective, though)
Like, in this vid:
DJNintendo(Bowser) vs PKMVodka(Marth) 3 SPOC7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-xy84UdD094#t=5m19s