Falco+ ~Hands Off My Prey!~ Under Construction! Upgrading to 7.0

Yingyay · May 20, 2009

Thats how Brawl+ shouldve been in the first place. Instead of adding features to moves that didnt need em.
And I know you dont mean .00012 end lag broken speed buff lol It'll be okay if utilt can combo as long as it isnt THAT quick (like it is now)
I like the current Dtilt tho, if i dont feel like persuing into an aerial, I can empty jump and fast fall into a smash attack if the opponent air dodges.
His new reflector = ultimate punishment tho, its like the right hand of sakurai man O_O

Dan_X · May 20, 2009

there is no reason whatsoever to slow down his current utilt. It's no better than other characters' utilts. In addition, it's worse than many other characters' utilts in that the range ( the hitbox ) behind falco is so terrible. He can barely get someone behind him with said attack.

Ying, you make the new shine out to be so good that I wonder if you've ever used it. Sure it's a great punishment tool but it's also incredibly DIable, to the point where it's not a guaranteed set-up...

EDIT:

Do you guys find it difficult to finish enemies? One of my friends mains Peach, and I can't land a move that will actually finish her on maps such as the Waiting Room, Luigi's Mansion, and numerous others. Perhaps it's just because I'm fighting Peach, and she survives things that most every character in the game wouldn't, but it's rediculous. Not one of my aerials finishes her, and If I attempt a Bair at the edge of the screen, she floats backwards away from me, so I'm forced to retreat back to the platform. In addition, it's ridiculously difficult to edge guard peach because she can float to the egde, and decide when to use her Up+B, or just grab it. Peach, unlike Falco, is in a very different boat with regards to kill moves (finishers), her Nair, Bair, and Fair are all prime kill moves, and even if I don't full on die I can't make it back to the stage like she can. Her Uair is also a good kill move if she's near the top of the level. I speak of the Falco Vs Peach matchup specifically because this is the one I deal with most often.

OMG YAY 700 POSTS!!!

ToxiCrow · May 20, 2009

hey guys
i know my icon says i main falco, but i just picked him up a week ago and i have a couple of questions.
for starters: which is our best approach option?

Dan_X · May 20, 2009

ToxiCrow said:
hey guys
i know my icon says i main falco, but i just picked him up a week ago and i have a couple of questions.
for starters: which is our best approach option?

SHDL approaches, Nair approaches, Crouch-Cancelled shine approaches. Keep spamming those lasers! Of course DACUS is a good approach, if the enemy isn't expecting it-- it's quite quick.

Dair approaches are also quite effective, in addition, Bair approaches are pretty nice in the mix up. RARing into Bairs is also good.

ToxiCrow · May 20, 2009

Orca said:
SHDL approaches, Nair approaches, Crouch-Cancelled shine approaches. Keep spamming those lasers! Of course DACUS is a good approach, if the enemy isn't expecting it-- it's quite quick. Dair approaches are also quite effective, in addition, Bair approaches are pretty nice in the mix up. RARing into Bairs is also good.

thank you sir

out of the ones you've mentioned, i've only used SHDL, Nair and Dair. i'll try using Crouch-canceled shines, DACUS and Bairs from now on too

Dan_X · May 20, 2009

ToxiCrow said:
thank you sir
out of the ones you've mentioned, i've only used SHDL, Nair and Dair. i'll try using Crouch-canceled shines, DACUS and Bairs from now on too

You're welcome.

King Funk · May 20, 2009

So many approaches. You can't get Falco's bread, but he sure will steal yours!

Dan_X · May 20, 2009

King Funk said:
So many approaches. You can't get Falco's bread, but he sure will steal yours!

LoL.

10chars.

Rudra · May 20, 2009

Orca said:
Do you guys find it difficult to finish enemies? One of my friends mains Peach, and I can't land a move that will actually finish her on maps such as the Waiting Room, Luigi's Mansion, and numerous others. Perhaps it's just because I'm fighting Peach, and she survives things that most every character in the game wouldn't, but it's rediculous. Not one of my aerials finishes her, and If I attempt a Bair at the edge of the screen, she floats backwards away from me, so I'm forced to retreat back to the platform. In addition, it's ridiculously difficult to edge guard peach because she can float to the egde, and decide when to use her Up+B, or just grab it. Peach, unlike Falco, is in a very different boat with regards to kill moves (finishers), her Nair, Bair, and Fair are all prime kill moves, and even if I don't full on die I can't make it back to the stage like she can. Her Uair is also a good kill move if she's near the top of the level. I speak of the Falco Vs Peach matchup specifically because this is the one I deal with most often.

OMG YAY 700 POSTS!!!

Well, Falco already has a bit of difficulty killing characters naturally (a decent tradeoff for his damage output and spacing options imo), but on stages like those with large Vertical boundaries and decent horizontal ones, the opponent can easily DI Diagonally to live even longer than usual. Couple that with Peach's amazing recovering abilities and...killing her becomes even harder. While those stages help with laser camping they also let her live longer.

Also, congratulations. :laugh:

Dan_X · May 20, 2009

Rudra said:
Well, Falco already has a bit of difficulty killing characters naturally (a decent tradeoff for his damage output and spacing options imo), but on stages like those with large Vertical boundaries and decent horizontal ones, the opponent can easily DI Diagonally to live even longer than usual. Couple that with Peach's amazing recovering abilities and...killing her becomes even harder. While those stages help with laser camping they also let her live longer.

Also, congratulations.

Yeah, that's what I concluded. Ironically, as you pointed out, despite the fact that one would think that Waiting Room / Luigi's Mansion are good stages for Falco due to his Laser game he has a really difficult time landing a move that will ACTUALLY KILL, this is especially noticeable if you're dealing with a Peach main.

Rudra · May 20, 2009

So then, what stages would we be able to use to CP her without losing a signifigant amount of our laser game? I usually run straight for Japes in a tight spot (and rarely Corneria), but it doesnt always work out too well. >_<

Clever_Sleazoid · May 20, 2009

Gotta rely on uair on huge stages like those, even then it's not in Falco's favor.

Yingyay · May 20, 2009

I dont have a problem killing with Falco.
dthrow to bair
shdl to reverse grab dthrow
nair to dair (works if you hit with the last hit of nair)
shdl o reverse fsmash.

I dont know why but I can mindgame so much better with Falco than my other characters.

Dan_X · May 21, 2009

Yingyay said:
I dont have a problem killing with Falco.

Fighting a good Peach main, and on either Luigi's Mansion or Waiting Room it's VERY difficult to finish her. Mindgames aren't good enough when you're dealing with a friend you've played competitively against for over a year straight. We know each others fight styles so well. We predict each others random stuff (more often than not), and when I pull off mindgames, he reads them because I've done said mind games before.

Obviously mingames are present each and every match, and determine the victor most of the time, but my point is, it's not easy to mindgame into many things with someone who knows your style very well. I try to trick him into rolling by me, rolling into my smash--this use to work. Though, now that he's use to the tactic it hardly ever works. Sure I could change my game, but there's little doubt in my mind that he has it far easier as Peach on said maps than I do Falco. He can kill with all of his aerials, save for his Dair.

Bascically, the best one can do is be unpredictable. Don't let the enemy read you. Perhaps I'll think more with this mindset when I next play him. Either way, we're NOT talking mindgaming an aerial attack and finishing the enemy, we're more or less talking ground smashes. Falco's aerials simply can't kill. They can't. If you attempt to Bair Peach to death at the edge of the map, you'll either die trying or have to fall back anyway, it's utterly fruitless-- she just floats back JUST enough to avoid you, just to mock you.

Yingyay · May 21, 2009

Thats what you call an even matchup lol.
I like fighting peach tho. She's a tough cookie in B+
But as long as you rack up the damage eventually she'll go kaboom. But at the sae time if your off the stage kiss you wings goodbye.

Thunderhorse+ · May 21, 2009

It's simply a character weakness that Falco has to overcome, much like his piss poor recovery, and you're going to have to be much smarter with each than say someone like Peach.

Personally, my most used killing method aside from an early dair spike is dthrow -> boost smash. At the early 100s (usually 115%ish before the grab), it's usually a guaranteed kill on most light/midweights (heavies cause a problem). Peach is a tough cookie to grab, but if you ever do at that small window of opportunity, it's over. SHDL -> Boost Smash is a great alternative once you can't combo from dthrow anymore as well.

Utilt -> Uair is usually my next-used kill move if I fail to dthrow ->boost smash. Try to land a utilt at 140%ish (the time dthrow -> boost smash stops working), which should be easy enough, chase them and hit them with an Uair. I get a surprising amount of kills with that, considering how weak it is.

Honestly though, I try to kill less and gimp more. Offstage, lasers are so unbelievably powerful it is ridiculous. They eat up 2nd jumps all day, and if you're not playing against a character with multiple jumps/ROB, most characters usually require one bair/fair/sourspot dair interception (easy to set up with lasers flying at them in all directions) and they're toast...if that even! Characters like Mario/Link/Falcon/other Falco usually only require a laser to steal their 2nd jump away from them before they can't do anything but fall to their deaths. Of course, this is all discounting the deadly dair meteor as well. That is always a very viable option. This of course doesn't work against Peach, but I'm talking general strategy here. The above two methods were more than enough to handle any Peach thrown my way, and I regularly play two different but skilled Peach mains on a regular basis.

Besides those, and I know you already mentioned this earlier, you're going to have to mindgame them. There's really no other way around it. Even in vBrawl, Falco has never had the best killing options. It's simply a part of his character. But there are ways to get around it, there's just no spammable and powerful smash attack handed to you on a silver platter.

professor mgw · May 21, 2009

link some more videos.
:link:

yeah yeah, more video links! :link:

lol

Sneak8288 · May 21, 2009

I'm not sure if someone might have said this already because i haven't read through all of the pages but i read in the 1st post saying that falco's neutral is one of his best approach moves and i really don't think that's true at all. I played teh_spammerer and yes! for about 2 hours (they are pretty pro at brawl+) falco vs fox and falco vs marth and the only move you can really approach with that's semi safe is his dair or maybe laser to grab. Anything else is just asking for punishment across the stage.

Just a vid of my falco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GeXnhT24Vk

Shaya · May 22, 2009

I dont know whether this has been brought up, but with Falcos new short hop and lasers he can do a very intriguing approach option.

His wavebounce laser from a full hop sends Falco a SIZABLE distance. Short hop is still noticable, and I often like following up with a side b afterwards...

Falco's wavebounce could be really useful now...

Almas · May 22, 2009

Why does Falco need to approach? By picking the character you put the burden of approach on the opposing player.

Deleted member · May 22, 2009

unless you play very campy opponents. it is true that falco is about the most campy character but that doesn'tt mean the opponent can just camp against you (a falco ditto would be a good example here)

Shaya · May 22, 2009

Perhaps a different stance would be more appropriate in conveying the idea.

The wave bounce is fast and of a reasonable distance.
It completely reverses the momentum Falco gains from the jump in the opposite direction, and naturally lowers yourself closer to the ground.

I think it would better be described as a BAIT move, which instead of just side bing away to continue camping, just literally move faster than normal (yeah, faster) in and out of a small space, where you can time the second laser to be silent and combo straight into something.

Dan_X · May 24, 2009

Shaya said:
I dont know whether this has been brought up, but with Falcos new short hop and lasers he can do a very intriguing approach option.

His wavebounce laser from a full hop sends Falco a SIZABLE distance. Short hop is still noticable, and I often like following up with a side b afterwards...

Falco's wavebounce could be really useful now...

I think when I say "B-reversals" I actually mean "wavebounce.." Did I make up B-reversal? I don't know where I got the name from... Either way, if they are the same thing, it's VERY important. I use it ALL the time-- excellent spacer, and great for surprise approaches. It's key.

Shaya said:
Perhaps a different stance would be more appropriate in conveying the idea.

The wave bounce is fast and of a reasonable distance.
It completely reverses the momentum Falco gains from the jump in the opposite direction, and naturally lowers yourself closer to the ground.

I think it would better be described as a BAIT move, which instead of just side bing away to continue camping, just literally move faster than normal (yeah, faster) in and out of a small space, where you can time the second laser to be silent and combo straight into something.

I do this all the time--- it's very effective! I'll be playing more soon (I haven't in a week). I finally got my Capture Card, so I can record hi-quality matches.

leafgreen386 · May 25, 2009

No orca, you did not make up the term "B reversal."

B reversal is the technique by which you switch directions on a special after starting the special. It gets confusing when you begin talking about turnaround specials, which is performing the turnaround before the special begins (this was how you turned around during a special in melee, giving birth to fox's and falco's retreating lasers). I believe that only B reversals will actually change the direction of your momentum in brawl+, allowing you to do both retreating specials and B reversal specials in different situations, where B reversals enable more exact spacing of your aerial specials by causing you to actually change the direction of your movement and turnaround specials are more useful if you simply want to retreat with lasers or change your direction without reversing your momentum (ie. while high in the air). It is in fact possible to perform both a B reversal and turnaround special on the same move, switching directions twice (and on moves with a built in reverse mechanism, such as ganon's or falcon's neutral Bs, you can actually turn around three times), although it's very difficult to actually do consistently. You could probably use it for very precise control over spacing, however, if you were to become consistent with it.

"Wavebouncing" is a term that was originally coined by lucas mains to refer to his ability to get a slide by performing a sideB near the ground. B-reversals are most frequently done in vbrawl by pikachu and lucas mains, both of which often use the cstick set to specials (B-reversals are considerably easier to perform with a b-stick). As a result, B reversals became increasingly known as "wavebouncing" by some individuals, due to their momentum reversing nature. It is, however, incorrect use of the term. So it's not too surprising that you would get the terms mixed up.

BEES · May 29, 2009

Has anyone tried chainthrowing lately? It seems to work again on some characters. I hope it's just bad DI/teching, but maybe this is an oversight.

Edit: the best characters to try it on are moderately floaty with poor horizontal air movement.

TL? · May 29, 2009

BEES said:
Has anyone tried chainthrowing lately? It seems to work again on some characters. I hope it's just bad DI/teching, but maybe this is an oversight.

Edit: the best characters to try it on are moderately floaty with poor horizontal air movement.

Maybe my opponents are just bad but down throw to jab cancel to down throw seems to work sometimes. Has anyone mentioned/tested this out?

Rudra · May 29, 2009

TL? said:
Maybe my opponents are just bad but down throw to jab cancel to down throw seems to work sometimes. Has anyone mentioned/tested this out?

Its already known (I think), though it seems that some characters can attack you in between the sequence, so its not a "true" chain.

Sneak8288 · May 31, 2009

I've found that a pretty good combo starter on characters that aren't fast fallers is dthrow to shine. When i tried it on fast fallers the would hit the ground b4 i could get the shine out but when it does hit i found that depending on how they DI i can do a smash attack or up tilts into up airs etc... One really good thing about it is the addition to the mix ups you can create from the dthrow now. Either you can dthrow shine, dthrow jab regrab, etc... i think its just a really good way to punish people for DI-ing your throw in anticipation of a different follow up. Fthrow shine may work on characters that fall faster but i really dont know i havent tried it yet... just an idea

Thunderhorse+ · Jun 3, 2009

Sneak8288 · Jun 3, 2009

Use more lasers.... Alot more lol

Dan_X · Jun 5, 2009

Sneak8288 said:
Use more lasers.... Alot more lol

This!

You should always be walling the enemy with lasers!

Sneak8288 · Jun 5, 2009

Sneak (Falco) vs Yes! (Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdCuCYamYl4

King Funk · Jun 7, 2009

I'm looking at all the other threads and see they are starting to study match-ups. How about we start as well? I believe we should begin with Fox, since Sneak has just posted a video with him.

Clever_Sleazoid · Jun 7, 2009

Here's 2 Falco videos. My Falco was picked up on that day so he ain't amazing, but meh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fVmcgLY42o&feature=channel_page
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8DxsmnUjDE&feature=channel_page

Xedi · Jun 8, 2009

Just started playing Brawl+ a few days ago, I must say I'm really enjoying playing as Falco, haven't enjoyed Smash Bros this much since Melee...

I think Falco's fair could use some tweaking though, personally I believe it would be made better if it executed a bit faster, not sure what other people think.

I really like the changes otherwise, I can't really think of anything else that would need tweaking aside from that (but then I'm not really that great a player

).

Sneak8288 · Jun 8, 2009

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0XRn3n0rjI if anyone wants to play on wifi or wants anything about falco i can try to help with send me a pm or message me on aim: sneak8288... anyone know of any good video capture cards or anything similar to gamebridge but for a cheap price?

Rudra · Jun 9, 2009

King Funk said:
I'm looking at all the other threads and see they are starting to study match-ups. How about we start as well? I believe we should begin with Fox, since Sneak has just posted a video with him.

I agree with this. We need to get started on the matchup discussions.
Starting with Fox wouldnt be a bad idea either (especially seeing how both he and Falco are from the same series), so I second that we start with him.

BEES · Jun 10, 2009

Great matchup. It's really close, and it's always a fun, fast match. Fox and Falco have so many ways of cutting each other up.

I would give Falco a slight edge, maybe 55-45, but I can't be certain. Indeed I'm probably quite biased.

Falco seems to have better on-stage combos, and a significantly better spacing game. However, Fox has major advantages off the stage with his recovery and shinespike.

BEES · Jun 10, 2009

Xedi said:
Just started playing Brawl+ a few days ago, I must say I'm really enjoying playing as Falco, haven't enjoyed Smash Bros this much since Melee...

I think Falco's fair could use some tweaking though, personally I believe it would be made better if it executed a bit faster, not sure what other people think.

I really like the changes otherwise, I can't really think of anything else that would need tweaking aside from that (but then I'm not really that great a player ).

We know it's bad. And it doesn't matter because all of his other moves are good. ALL OF THEM. So just don't use Fair. Part of the learning curve of the game deals with finding out which moves are good and which moves are not.

Also, Falco/Wolf: 60-40. Another really fun match. Although I would personally say Fox/Wolf is the most fun of the three.

Sneak8288 · Jun 10, 2009

the fox v falco matchup is definitely in foxs favor..... he's too fast while he's in the right hands and its hard to be aggressive without being punished so hard... when i played teh spammerer i had no choice but to be on the defensive because of foxes speed. Alot of lasers help and the only viable approach move is the dair or spaced lasers into a grab but imo the match up is at least 55/45 fox
Edit: alot of fast back airs outta shield can help if ur forced to play defensive and i think up tilt beats fox's neutral but waiting for it is only gonna get you dashdance camped or mindgamed... dairs outta shield also help and if u DI away instead of fast falling it you avoid being punished most of the time

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