Falco Beats Fox!!

[ArcNatural]

Can't Fox not pressure Falco and vice versa cause of gay *** shine-out-of-shield?

Also, when Falco SHL towards me and is about to SH aerial shine, I like to Upsmash OoS in between the SHL and SH aerial. Dunno why it works, but yeah.

In a perfect world yes. But the initial aerial shine I believe if done properly is safe. Then it's just a matter of who has more consistent timing (defender does have the advantage I believe). You can space it so you can aerial -> shine pillar without getting hit with shine OoS though. The only real difference is Falco gains much more from his shine OoS than Fox does. At least until Foxes start waveshining OoS instead of jumping.

I do that upsmash OoS strategy as well, it works because the time it takes Falco to cover the distance allows you to at the very least clang with his approach usually. This get's ***** if the Falco reads it though. But it does have it's uses.

 

[forward]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDHTJMJrIhk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYRQhklLCw0

A couple of Fox vs Falco vids from a tournament last weekend. In Axe's defense he probably wasn't playing at his best so don't put too much weight on these. We literally go back and forth in this match up.

 

[iamthemicrowave]

those matches were awesome forward. ****.

 

[SheerMadness]

Well if you watch Colbol vs any Falco (go watch him vs DSW or Mango on youtube) he'll shine oos before Falco has a chance to shine after the aerial on 90% of their approaches.

Actually in both DSW and Mango vids there pretty hilarious sequences where both Mango and DSW approach 4-5 times in a row and keep getting shined OOS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fs95ly5U278

vs DaShizWiz at 3:05


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3_wFaSwtKI&feature=related

vs Mango at 2:10

EDIT: He crouch cancels some of them but most are OOS.

 

[ChivalRuse]

When I saw that shine **** on Shiz, I was in disbelief.

 

[jugfingers]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDHTJMJrIhk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYRQhklLCw0

A couple of Fox vs Falco vids from a tournament last weekend. In Axe's defense he probably wasn't playing at his best so don't put too much weight on these. We literally go back and forth in this match up.

warms the cockles of my heart to see fox beating a top falco.

 

[Diakonos]

nah. I got ***** by blunted object, and Diakonos usually beats him........(thought I don't think I'd lose to diakonos, but maybe. Only time will tell...).

oh yeah. I saw those vids of that falcon player vs diakanos, from one of your guys' tourney. Blitz I think is his name IIRC.

The only people in ottawa that still plays that I know is ganonpwn.

I also remember when locke was the best player in ottawa, but I haven't heard from that guy in more than 2 years.

=D UNKNOWN PLEASE COME PLAY US.

I'd definitely go Pikachu in that matchup, my Marth would get *****. JK my fox wouldn't lose to Toronto in dittos.

Come play Manuel now. DON'T YOU BAIL ON ME, TORONTO. BC is really nice to visit anyway, give those johns to your parents, maybe they'll pitch in a hundred or so.

 

[unknown522]

I definitely can't make it for the may tourney, due to lack of funds. I'll eventually come though. Maybe in the summer if I get this job.

 

[Kira-]

hey jman

Lucky vs Mango

take notes

 

[Lovage]

mangos falco is unlike any other falco in the world

you can barley apply anything you learn playing mangos falco when you play larry or zhu

 

[Kira-]

mango's anything is unlike any other anything in the world

you can know the matchup, but you still dont know how to fight mango

 

[MaNg0]

also i play jman sorta gay

cant do that 2 joey unless im pissed haha

 

[Animal]

what you think the matchup is mango?

 

[SwiftBass]

*wonders about mango's opinion*

pound3

 

[MaNg0]

i think its 50 50

foxes are just gay *** people who complain

cause they cant get through laser


like ne other character can


****!

 

[Dr Peepee]

For what it's worth, I agree(with 50/50).

 

[ChivalRuse]

Except Falco can combo Fox zero to death. He has more abbreviated combos on other characters.

 

[Silent Wolf]

Except Falco can combo Fox zero to death. He has more abbreviated combos on other characters.

smash DIing falcos dair isnt that hard, he cant always combo 0-death. Fox can combo falco 0-death too. falco can be really easy to combo 0-death if you get a combo into shine near the ledge and judge edge guard.

 

[Grey Fox]

Yeah exactly fox could def 0 to death falco toooo. It is a 50/50 matchup, and just cause falco has lasers doesnt put him at an advantage like 60/40, b/c if he didnt have lasers he would get ***** by fox it would be like a 60/40 in fox's favor or even a 70/30 in foxes favor. the lasers give him an even match up against fox.

 

[Blistering Speed]

man, falco's sheild pressure sucks.

its annoying playing against people who have massive experience vs falco cuz everything you do as falco can be countered in a number of ways and his sheild pressure has so many flaws.

i like fox so much better <3

You're doing it wrong.

 

[JPOBS]

Please, oh great one, enlighten me on how im supposed to sheild pressure as falco such that i am impervious to counter options.

 

[NOz]

i know i know nothing compared to you guys but i think its 55-45 falco at top level play because of the combos, and the falco wont do stupid **** and hang near the ledge. at mid level play its probably 50-50 just because fox can probably get the falco near the edge easier.

but saying 55-45 and thinking that matchup numbers are the real deal is stupid. a 55-45 is like anyones game. jman your fox is a beast i know you can beat mango.

 

[Tomacawk]

low dair shine fade away nair
mango you're gay for that

 

[MaNg0]

i know i know nothing compared to you guys but i think its 55-45 falco at top level play because of the combos, and the falco wont do stupid **** and hang near the ledge. at mid level play its probably 50-50 just because fox can probably get the falco near the edge easier.

but saying 55-45 and thinking that matchup numbers are the real deal is stupid. a 55-45 is like anyones game. jman your fox is a beast i know you can beat mango.

jman aint gonna beat ****

i think when someone makes a thread cause they cant beat a character/someone

they AINT GONNA DO ****!

 

[Animal]

haha jmans fox is so **** though, you think hes better than joeys?

 

[Grey Fox]

You know Zhu has the best falco

 

[Blistering Speed]

Please, oh great one, enlighten me on how im supposed to sheild pressure as falco such that i am impervious to counter options.

Mix it up. Falco has so many ways to pressure that shining OOS is an obscene risk. They hit, reset to neutral. You hit, it's death or a massive chunk of damage. And for the record, Fox has no answer to multishines and can only counter shinegrab with a buffered spotdodge (and if they somehow do pull this off and you're not shinegrabbing, you can **** them up).

For the record, I think it's 55-45 Falco's advantage.

 

[forward]

Shield grabbing/up smash oos plus buffer di is really good at escaping anything having to do with a shine. The only way they can follow that up for a combo is if they did a wavedash after that shine, but it's so fast it has to be predicted and cannot be reacted to, thus if they predict wrong you hit them while they are wavedashing.

Basically when Falco is doing shield pressure I'll counter at the risk of being hit by a shine because it's the easiest to escape follow up damage, opposed to trying to counter at the risk of being hit by a dair or nair, which is where the gross damage comes from.

 

[Grey Fox]

Forward COme over my house again in Brooklyn!!!!! BABA GHANOUSH you know the deal shun!!!

 

[Blistering Speed]

Shield grabbing/up smash oos plus buffer di is really good at escaping anything having to do with a shine. The only way they can follow that up for a combo is if they did a wavedash after that shine, but it's so fast it has to be predicted and cannot be reacted to, thus if they predict wrong you hit them while they are wavedashing.

Basically when Falco is doing shield pressure I'll counter at the risk of being hit by a shine because it's the easiest to escape follow up damage, opposed to trying to counter at the risk of being hit by a dair or nair, which is where the gross damage comes from.

Dependant on stage, couldn't you follow up the shine from SH by platform wavelanding? You can probably afford more then one if you're quick enough in the hitstun.

 

[JPOBS]

Mix it up. Falco has so many ways to pressure that shining OOS is an obscene risk. They hit, reset to neutral. You hit, it's death or a massive chunk of damage. And for the record, Fox has no answer to multishines and can only counter shinegrab with a buffered spotdodge (and if they somehow do pull this off and you're not shinegrabbing, you can **** them up).

For the record, I think it's 55-45 Falco's advantage.

lol shining OOS with proper reaction time isnt an "obscene risk"

you have so much advantage on frames its not even funny.
Shine oos comes out on like frame 5 as fox.

Falco's ideal pillar has a gap of like 12 frames, his early pillar has like 15 frames, and his late pillar has like 12 frames or so. Im not perfect on the numbers but i know at best the fox's sheild is free for ~12 frames.

"mixing it up" only works in preventing your opponent from knowing what yu will do, but even when he doesnt, he has such a massive frame window that shine oos is really easy.

the only relatively safe mixups are shinegrabs and fade away nairs/dairs. In case of the lastter, they can still beat the shinegrab with shine oos but its tough and they probably wont unless they call it. And fadeback nairs/dairs gt you nothing at all if they shineoos or wd back oos or any other not stupid option.

point is, theres a huge misconception about falco's sheild pressure and all it takes is lot of vs falco experience and you can generally exploit the big holes in his pressure forms.
The smarter falcos wont even bother with extended pressure because they know better than anyone how quickly it can go wrong.

 

[ZoSo]

lol shining OOS with proper reaction time isnt an "obscene risk"

you have so much advantage on frames its not even funny.
Shine oos comes out on like frame 5 as fox.

Falco's ideal pillar has a gap of like 12 frames, his early pillar has like 15 frames, and his late pillar has like 12 frames or so. Im not perfect on the numbers but i know at best the fox's sheild is free for ~12 frames.

"mixing it up" only works in preventing your opponent from knowing what yu will do, but even when he doesnt, he has such a massive frame window that shine oos is really easy.

the only relatively safe mixups are shinegrabs and fade away nairs/dairs. In case of the lastter, they can still beat the shinegrab with shine oos but its tough and they probably wont unless they call it. And fadeback nairs/dairs gt you nothing at all if they shineoos or wd back oos or any other not stupid option.

point is, theres a huge misconception about falco's sheild pressure and all it takes is lot of vs falco experience and you can generally exploit the big holes in his pressure forms.
The smarter falcos wont even bother with extended pressure because they know better than anyone how quickly it can go wrong.

I can't believe you never mentioned multishining even once. Lol.

 

[JPOBS]

tru i forgot about multishining

if the falco can effectively multishine on sheilds properly then theres not much you can do i guess.

 

[forward]

Good thing there are no falcos in the world who can multishine until you get shield stabbed or your shield breaks.

Rolling > human multishines

 

[JPOBS]

ya.

the falco metagame hasnt exactly exploded with multishining....yet.

I dunno, i feel like multishine is one of those things thats too difficult to do consistently and even if you commit to it, i figure a simple buffered roll would allow the oppoennt to escape while you're doing it without much chance of a follow up.

I could be wrong though, we'll have to see if the falco meta progresses to that point sometime soon.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Fox has to be near super frame perfect bros melee for him to get out of multishines or shine grabs with shine OoS.

You could probably learn how to do shine grabs frame perfectly if you just practiced because it's an easy input and pretty forgiving. There's no tricky timing, so I don't think it would be much different than learning how to SHDL perfectly, which is just Jump --> B speed.

 

[ZoSo]

When I said "multishining," I meant "shining more than once," but I guess I should've just said double shining.

 

[Decipio-Carmen]

my brother actually plays pure falco and i play marth/fastfallers... i remember watching m2k's fox vs falco game and what m2k does is that he camps with he shffls fullhop nairs with shines.. what this does is it makes fox harder to hit with lasers, and it makes it harder for them to shine out of shield --> combo since you're too high sometimes.. once the your nair hits (even if its a weak one) you can grab --> combo on them.. there are also lots of ways to make shield pressure very difficult for falco: shining out of shield is rediculously fast (i shine out of shield right after they shine when they pillar my shield) also if they **** up and execute a nair or dair really slow u can catch them with their pants down with upsmash out of shield... also wavedash out of shield useful (it is key if you play marth vs falco) doing these out of shield tactics will put you in a position to tech chase them or at least negate their offensive and return it to a neutral positition

if you're in a pillar combo you can mix up directions and smash di left or right once they shine you and it's really hard for them to follow up because it keeps them guessing.. it makes it really hard for them to combo you..

other than that you just gotta edgeguard them and tech chase them and chase them all over the platforms as they do to you...

sorry if you already know this heh

 

[KirbyKaze]

FJ Nair sucks.

CC will ruin it and then you trade 7% for 60% and that's a bad trade. Because it's so telegraphed (upon FJ Nairing you can't really do anything else except finish the Nair, which can take a while) it's also prone to Falco simply U-tilting you through it and then going to work.

 

[Blistering Speed]

ya.

the falco metagame hasnt exactly exploded with multishining....yet.

I dunno, i feel like multishine is one of those things thats too difficult to do consistently and even if you commit to it, i figure a simple buffered roll would allow the oppoennt to escape while you're doing it without much chance of a follow up.

I could be wrong though, we'll have to see if the falco meta progresses to that point sometime soon.

Chops and Shiz do it aaalll the time.