Falco Beats Fox!!

[JPOBS]

?
as far as i know, i've seen chops as shiz double shines like mad but its not even hard, even I do that. unless there are vids that i havent seen where they do crazy triple and quad shines like its going out of style

in that case its just another mixup. Instead of waiting for one shine, you wait for the second one and THEN do whatever counter-sheild pressure method you choose to take. Falco does have mixups up the a** though so its all down to a rock paper scissors guessing game

meh, whatever though, this brings me back to my original point. falco has so many mixups that are required cuz his pressure is vulnerable if your opponent guesses right.
fox is kinda like basic nair-shine and stuff cuz his vulnerable windows are smaller. and then shine grab actually ***** with fox cuz his throws dont suck
<3 fox

 

[forward]

Yea I want to start using shine-grabs with Fox I think that would be ****.

FJ nair is good with Fox because it gives you a chance to learn your opponents patterns. Use it from up close/mid range so you kind of land behind Falco, and start the nair early or late depending on what you react to. Do this in hopes of hitting a retreating shl, or knocking him out of a jump. Yes, Falco can counter with up tilt and CC shine, but let's look at these options for a minute.

To set up the up tilt Falco has to be doing close to nothing, walking or standing, which if you cannot react to you are a bad player. CC shine is good but there are 2 things you need to take into account. You can buffer di, so as long as you are not on FD you should get a di that is reasonably difficult to follow up with. You should only take 30% tops, while realistically you should only take 20-25%. The other thing to take into account is that knowing a Falco will go for that counter, you can now counter. Full jump dair will counter, full jump shine > dj away, full jump bair, and even running straight in to a grab all become viable options if the Falco does CC shine.

So yea, I'll gladly take 30% to figure out my opponents patterns, no questions asked.

 

[FoxLisk]

man ive been telling myself to start shinegrabbing for like 3 years. maybe now that it's the cool thing to do i'll actually pick it up.

 

[BigD!!!]

i dont see what the big deal with multishining is

just hold your shield longer and/or roll

it doesnt really open up any possibilities that a single shine doesnt already, its just a slight timing mixup to catch them from shining out of shield or something if they do it right after your shine every time. i hardly ever get shined out of shield after my shine though, its usually after an aerial but before my shine. rising/retreating aerials out of shine provide basically the same effect as multishining as far as i can tell

 

[forward]

Agreed with with Big D. Retreating aerials gives you the same effect without having lost your second jump.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

shinegrabs have always seen like an amazing idea to me. especially if you know your coming in with a predictable aerial and you know they're gonna shield it, just have that grab ready right after the shine.

I just don't apply it enough. I WILL.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

multishining(by this i mean doubleshining) honestly isn't that hard at all. It's like any other techskill iono why more people don't bother to learn it.

 

[RaynEX]

multishining(by this i mean doubleshining) honestly isn't that hard at all. It's like any other techskill iono why more people don't bother to learn it.

For the low, low price of 15-20 min in the lab (vs. mode w/cpu), you can make your space animal extra broken too. Definitely worth the time and effort.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

For the low, low price of 15-20 min in the lab (vs. mode w/cpu), you can make your space animal extra broken too. Definitely worth the time and effort.

I've practiced alot and I seriously cannot multishine. Assuming you guys mean SHINEjcSHINErepeat. and with FOX? ****. even worse.

Am i missing this magical easy way? The only solution I have is doing it like downB - up on control stick - downB.

 

[RaynEX]

If you jump with Y, its easy to get used to. If you jump with X, its still possible (KirbyKaze does 2-4 consistently this way). I used to use the control stick to jump way back in the day, so I know from personal experience that its tough to do more than two in that manner.

This is the easiest way to go about learning it. (in terms of controller mapping and finger positioning at least)

Down+B to shine > lift your thumb and place it on either Y or X (Y is easier because of its proximity to the B button) > as soon as you tap the jump button, slide your thumb down off of it and back onto B.

The key here is to not lift your thumb up off of the jump button. As you're sliding back down to the B button to cancel your shorthop with shine, remember that hitting A doesn't do anything. You can't jab while you're stuck in your shine.

If you find that you're able to shine but when you try to slide down to B for the second shine, you're just empty shorthopping...you're pressing it too fast. You have to jump, but cancel your jump before you leave the ground with shine.


Bah that probably sounded complicated. Start from Y and slide down to B while passing the A button. Doesn't matter if you press it or not.

 

[forward]

I hit Y with the tip of my thumb then hit B with the middle of my thumb, the part that bends.

 

[BigD!!!]

but really raynex, what benefit does it give you besides a really slight mixup

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

it seems like a really good benefit to me, say you throw in alot of shine jc grabs and jc shines, they're gonna have to decide quick if your gonna grab them, or a second shine. and if they roll, im sure fox can followup the roll easy enough. maybe i'm wrong i dunno

also I use X, seems like when i try the slide over A methodwhile pushing it, I accidentally shdair. you sure that's due to pushing it too fast?

 

[forward]

I've always wanted to do (with falco) multishine, waveland off of a side platform, shoot laser while falling off.

 

[FoxLisk]

it seems like a really good benefit to me, say you throw in alot of shine jc grabs and jc shines, they're gonna have to decide quick if your gonna grab them, or a second shine. and if they roll, im sure fox can followup the roll easy enough. maybe i'm wrong i dunno

also I use X, seems like when i try the slide over A methodwhile pushing it, I accidentally shdair. you sure that's due to pushing it too fast?

that means you're pushing it too slow. ill assume nothing weird is going on and you're hitting X, A, then B. X inputs your jump. You can't do anything until you're airborne, so as long as you hit A during the first 3 (4?) frames after X is input, nothing will happen. You want to hit B on frame 4 (5? cant remember) to shine on the ground. what's happening is you're hitting A on frame 4 or later, so you're already airborne, and the A input is valid, and inputs a dair.

 

[JPOBS]

I've always wanted to do (with falco) multishine, waveland off of a side platform, shoot laser while falling off.

thats pretty easy assuming by mutilshien you mean:

shine->short hop shine-> waveland -> laser

the short hop shine is like every other short hop shine->waveland platform shenanigans

i often do it into fall off dairs to catch people who try to roll through me towards the inner stage.

if you're talking perfect jc shines on the ground to the rest, meh i dunno.

 

[BigD!!!]

forward i've actually attempted that, but i've never actually pulled it off, i usually just airdodge

trahh the easiest way to avoid a shine grab is to roll away, and that also evades multishines. deciding between whether they'll shine grab you or multishine you isnt an issue, because theyre probably just going to shine grab you after the later shines anyway so you should just get out of there either way

basically im saying any mixup you can do after multiple shines, you can do after one shine instead, and that way theyll have less time to think about it and decide how to get out of there

none of this applies to prosmashertim though, that guy can do whatever he wants

 

[RaynEX]

but really raynex, what benefit does it give you besides a really slight mixup

forward i've actually attempted that, but i've never actually pulled it off, i usually just airdodge

trahh the easiest way to avoid a shine grab is to roll away, and that also evades multishines. deciding between whether they'll shine grab you or multishine you isnt an issue, because theyre probably just going to shine grab you after the later shines anyway so you should just get out of there either way

basically im saying any mixup you can do after multiple shines, you can do after one shine instead, and that way theyll have less time to think about it and decide how to get out of there

none of this applies to prosmashertim though, that guy can do whatever he wants

If you can doubleshine consistently, as in more than 2, 3, 4 or 5...than I'd say its a pretty valuable tool for any space animal player to have. Being able to do 2 won't add much to a player's game, that much I agree.

In a perfect world, a Fox/Falco player would be able to pick and choose how many shines to add to shield pressure. JC grab whenever, or SH behind them and continue to whittle their shield away. If they tried to attack/jump/roll/sidestep/anything through one of the JC shines, you chase the knockdown and lather rinse repeat until they're off the stage. Or you could go into a techchase grab for easy damage.


But I digress. Learning to analyze a battle and draw insight from the choices your opponent makes in their defensive strategy, whether it be in their shield or cornered near an edge, is more important than overindulging in tech skill wet dreams. Its more conducive to a competitive, professional melee mindset.

Long story short, learn to mulstishine to better understand your character their limits. From there, use what skills you have acquired when the need arises. If they get fidgety on the defense, why not shine a few more times to score the knockdown if you're capable?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

I use multishine cuz I like to do the whole shine -> delayed aerial -> shine when shield pressuring. When people start catching onto that and try to hit me during my SH before I start my aerial thats when I start throwing in double shines, to catch them trying to do something oos.

I like shield pressure so i'd rather try to do mix ups while on someones sheild as opposed to just shine, sh immediate nair DI away. Cuz usually that ends whatever advantage you had and people stop falling for that after a while.

I'm also really good with following rolls with a laser after a double shine, so that doesn't really hinder me in terms of control and keeping pressure.

also there are just times where you know that the double shine will hit. I can't really explain it.

iono it's just good.

multishining might be excessive tho, i doubt I can do multiple jc shines while still feeling in complete control of my character after with just doing one or two shines.

 

[BigD!!!]

ok i can accept all that. i think i'm just hung up on the fact that i cant do it without really exerting myself and therefore completely committing to the act, making myself unprepared to follow up their escape attempts if i guess wrong

i think i'll just stick to what i know for now

 

[forward]

thats pretty easy assuming by mutilshien you mean:

shine->short hop shine-> waveland -> laser

the short hop shine is like every other short hop shine->waveland platform shenanigans

i often do it into fall off dairs to catch people who try to roll through me towards the inner stage.

if you're talking perfect jc shines on the ground to the rest, meh i dunno.

I remember doing it before, it's just hard to do consistently smoothly.

I do it at 9 seconds into this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2enKHB0J0

But I would like to do it wavelanding off of a platform, not falling through. That one is more difficult because you have to buffer your laser direction in the opposite direction you waveland.

 

[JPOBS]

I remember doing it before, it's just hard to do consistently smoothly.

I do it at 9 seconds into this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B2enKHB0J0

But I would like to do it wavelanding off of a platform, not falling through. That one is more difficult because you have to buffer your laser direction in the opposite direction you waveland.

yea that was pretty tight. I think that was the vid that first gave me the idea to work on that.

yea i guess its just practice/getting used to it

i think it helps if you dont think of it as a "double shine to platform waveland to laser"
but instead think of it as "shine to platformwaveland to laser" and dont think about the stuff before it. thats what helped me anyway.

 

[jugfingers]

sooo chops just owned eggm recently......

 

[NOz]

shine->grab isn't all that safe. i think Silent Wolf posted the frame data on it. It isn't godly or anything. But as a mixup it seems pretty good since fox's grabs are good.

btw double shining is really easy with falco. i use x to jump, but right after i approach with a dair/nair i quickly switch to a claw hand (middle finger on y, index on b) and hold down and double shine. then after i short hop to a dair/whatever. it's easy with falco since his shines don't have to be as fast AND most importantly, his jump is easy to do even after freaking out by pressing all those buttons for shines. For fox, shorthopping after double shining is a pain lol. i don't find it as useful for fox anyway though. but thats my opinion.

 

[RaynEX]

Technically, claw'ing' is done with your index finger on Y and your thumb on B/A. So that your right hand is almost hooked around the buttons (hence the name claw). Its interesting that you use your middle/index fingers.

 

[NOz]

oh really? that makes more sense. ive heard some people only claw when playing. JC grabs must be hard. im guessing its index on y and middle on z? do they ever use R when claw-ing?

 

[JPOBS]

ya chops vs eggm was a great set.

its funny cuz eggm normally loses to hax but he finally beat him, only to get romped by chops. poor eggm. chops was playing on another level though.

 

[NJzFinest]

Surpised Eggm didn't go Falco...

Is he like, only Fox now or something?

 

[D1]

Surpised Eggm didn't go Falco...

Is he like, only Fox now or something?

Yeah dude, I always ask him to go Falco he's like no way. Fox is better.

 

[D1]

Yea I want to start using shine-grabs with Fox I think that would be ****.

FJ nair is good with Fox because it gives you a chance to learn your opponents patterns. Use it from up close/mid range so you kind of land behind Falco, and start the nair early or late depending on what you react to. Do this in hopes of hitting a retreating shl, or knocking him out of a jump. Yes, Falco can counter with up tilt and CC shine, but let's look at these options for a minute.

To set up the up tilt Falco has to be doing close to nothing, walking or standing, which if you cannot react to you are a bad player. CC shine is good but there are 2 things you need to take into account. You can buffer di, so as long as you are not on FD you should get a di that is reasonably difficult to follow up with. You should only take 30% tops, while realistically you should only take 20-25%. The other thing to take into account is that knowing a Falco will go for that counter, you can now counter. Full jump dair will counter, full jump shine > dj away, full jump bair, and even running straight in to a grab all become viable options if the Falco does CC shine.

So yea, I'll gladly take 30% to figure out my opponents patterns, no questions asked.

Quoted for lack of emphasis on this, and more on multishines.

 

[FluxWolf]

shine->grab isn't all that safe. i think Silent Wolf posted the frame data on it. It isn't godly or anything. But as a mixup it seems pretty good since fox's grabs are good.

btw double shining is really easy with falco. i use x to jump, but right after i approach with a dair/nair i quickly switch to a claw hand (middle finger on y, index on b) and hold down and double shine. then after i short hop to a dair/whatever. it's easy with falco since his shines don't have to be as fast AND most importantly, his jump is easy to do even after freaking out by pressing all those buttons for shines. For fox, shorthopping after double shining is a pain lol. i don't find it as useful for fox anyway though. but thats my opinion.

i have a friend who does that too with fox, when he u throw doubleshine gimps (or tries to lol) he quickly switches his hands just cuz he cant double shine without that way lol

also forward you been going to tournys? not that ive checked, but im wondering how axe has been doing there since he used to live here

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if you uthrow double shine gimp, does the 2nd shine miss if you perfect multishine? i usually just leave the ground a little bit and it lets me rise and hit number 2, but the few times i've done the perfect one the 2nd hit misses.

 

[FoxLisk]

sveet

i cant tell you for super certain, but my experience is this: the trajectory on the shine is a little bit up at first, so you want to let your opponent fall until they're realtively far inside your body before you shine. i think if you do this the second shine will hit if you stay on the ground, otherwise it's better to leave the ground a little bit.

i think this is also how to pull off shine bairs and shien nairs, but i rarely get those no matter what i try

 

[Animal]

ya i need help with those, although i think thatsj ust finger speed since i know how to do it lol

not really neccessary though imo. looks ballin as hell

 

[Kason Birdman]

good falcos will be multi shinning the **** out of sheilds... in a little while.

responding to a topic a few pages back... cause i fail

 

[Silent Wolf]

good falcos will be multi shinning the **** out of sheilds... in a little while.

responding to a topic a few pages back... cause i fail

they probably wont lol. its not that good falcos now cant do it, its just not necessary.

 

[Kason Birdman]

nah not really. it just looks so **** nice.

edit: actually, if you can consistantly do it, why not? it ***** hard. and sure all other methods are pretty much just as effective but still... its like a garunteed ****

 

[fLoAtiN]

nah not really. it just looks so **** nice.

edit: actually, if you can consistantly do it, why not? it ***** hard. and sure all other methods are pretty much just as effective but still... its like a garunteed ****

people do use double shines. more than double seems unnecessary.

 

[Kason Birdman]

yeah i suppose so. but whats fox like? same deal?

 

[Kanelol]

double shining with Fox is hard QQ

but yeah i guess it's the same deal, no more than 2 is really necessary