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~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~
- Thread starter Kataefi
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Villi
Smash Lord
Maybe her hurtbox follows dash attack's disjointed hitbox shortly after it's out. I dunno how long bomb-omb's explosion is out, but I hear the bomb blocks on green greens have a 1 frame hit box. So you were able to just barely dodge the explosion with frame perfect timing and amazing spacing. o.O
Villi how do you feel about chasing an opponent with uair after hitting with a dash attack, usmash or uthrow. They all send directly up. Whenever I've rushed directly into it... they've always managed to airdodge, but I've thought to myself what I wait that out and then hit after... that would surely hit.
Do those moves setup nicely to uair?
Also... USmash > Uair from very early percents is quite easy to chase with. I just need to find optimal percents when these would work best >.>
Do those moves setup nicely to uair?
Also... USmash > Uair from very early percents is quite easy to chase with. I just need to find optimal percents when these would work best >.>
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
On the video I just posted in the video thread I kill a Peach with Dash attack up air. And in the next battle I chase a Luigi with upsmash to up air a think maybe even more than once...
About the bob-omb thing. Items were off etc. After she blew up I still ran through the rest of the animation... so i hit it with the first few frames. She had JUST pulled it so it couldn't have blown up on her. Maybe it was just a crazy random happen-stance... Or perhaps her range on that move is just well beyond her hitbox on the first few frames?
About the bob-omb thing. Items were off etc. After she blew up I still ran through the rest of the animation... so i hit it with the first few frames. She had JUST pulled it so it couldn't have blown up on her. Maybe it was just a crazy random happen-stance... Or perhaps her range on that move is just well beyond her hitbox on the first few frames?
Good stuff! Try testing with a uthrow as well around 20-50% for all characters (the earlier the percent the closer you can reach them), I think that could set up uair as well.
Seems like dash attack and usmash can set it up really well also ^^ good to hear. I'm trying to get the BEST percents where uair is most likely to hit. Fingers crossed it's around kill percents =D
Seems like dash attack and usmash can set it up really well also ^^ good to hear. I'm trying to get the BEST percents where uair is most likely to hit. Fingers crossed it's around kill percents =D
MrEh
Smash Hero
Baiting people into the Uair is a general strategy that works with a handful of characters. DM does it a lot with Zelda's Uair. Any character that has a slow Uair can take advantage of it. For example, Ike and Bowser.
If you can bait them into airdodging, then you can punish them for it.
If you can bait them into airdodging, then you can punish them for it.
Villi
Smash Lord
TBH, up air isn't usually the first thought on my mind. When I see 50% roll around, I think dtilt, not up air KO. ^^; I'd rather chase with nair or on the ground since they get less wiggle room that way.
Up air's damage isn't spectacular compared to other moves and its own fresh KO potential. 15% decay is a long way down; I wouldn't spend it on damage racking when I would be hoping to KO with it.
Up throw sends pretty high in the air, which is why I think early KOs are possible when they don't air dodge, but not if they do since they get to fall away from the blast zone. Edit: If you wanted to wait til, say 70% or so to up throw, I'm sure lots of people would be wanting to air dodge and die by then.
So yeah, an up air set up seems pretty pointless in my personal game play unless I'm getting it for a kill.
NinjaLink
Smash Master
I ...LOVE...Airchasing with bowser. They dodge ur uair and they get hit with bair/fair.
Ike's uair ***** airdodges period. U dont even have to time it much.
I think I just found a really nice setup to a dtilt... it's like a semi combo of some sort.
Basically, when you SH a bair with tap jump on (you need to jump and bair immediately) you can get the very first hitbox of nair out before you reach the floor.
This hitbox, when Zelda's back is facing the opponent, places them directly in front of you. From here you can immediately dsmash, dtilt, dash attack or usmash which all register as true combos from this hit.
I'll get a video up. I don't quite know how reliable of a setup it could be. If they shield, your back to the opponent should give you the double hit dsmash which would push their shields out a bit or at least pressure, not forgetting you could just run away from them to reset your spacing.
So basically: when you're close, SH sourspot bair them and as they're in slight stun space behind so that your back is facing them > immediately nair (before you land) > dsmash / dash attack / usmash / dtilt > whatever. Works best with dtilt as you can start landing a lot of strings.
It's a semi-string of 4 attacks that's guaranteed if you managed to get that nair hit in.
Basically, when you SH a bair with tap jump on (you need to jump and bair immediately) you can get the very first hitbox of nair out before you reach the floor.
This hitbox, when Zelda's back is facing the opponent, places them directly in front of you. From here you can immediately dsmash, dtilt, dash attack or usmash which all register as true combos from this hit.
I'll get a video up. I don't quite know how reliable of a setup it could be. If they shield, your back to the opponent should give you the double hit dsmash which would push their shields out a bit or at least pressure, not forgetting you could just run away from them to reset your spacing.
So basically: when you're close, SH sourspot bair them and as they're in slight stun space behind so that your back is facing them > immediately nair (before you land) > dsmash / dash attack / usmash / dtilt > whatever. Works best with dtilt as you can start landing a lot of strings.
It's a semi-string of 4 attacks that's guaranteed if you managed to get that nair hit in.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Ahh ****. I hate being grounded. I'll start testing the bomb-o-bomb thing later when I get ungrounded.
Villi
Smash Lord
You can do it with tap jump off, if you prefer. Just slide your thumb from Y to A as you hold a direction a la Ganon's thunder storm. It's how I do my RAR bairs. It's like a quick little dash dance motion into an aerial. Eazy (consistent) rising sweet spots. It should also help you with buffering turn around bairs out of dtilt.
When you got that, you can do the bair -> nair -> bair. Shows up as consecutive hits (between the nair and bair), but I've never gotten it outside training mode.
Another interesting trick, is if you're buffering a nair from your jump animation (you have 8 frames to buffer a move from the animation of another move, so if you slide your finger from Y to A, you're buffering the attack during your jump startup), if you hit c-stick down right before you touch the ground, you should buffer a 5 frame dtilt upon landing.
I like to nair through shields and buffer a turn around dtilt. It works alright, not great. When you get the timing down, you can just regular fast fall and buffer other moves. If you notice nair has a tiny bit of lag if you fast fall too soon, but if you wait a little bit before fast falling, you can auto-cancel it forreal.
Also, with this method, you can get a bair and fair from a single short hop.
Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScnrWcuNDsY&fmt=18 I do a bair and fair in a short hop and buffer a dtilt from a nair within the first 35 second. Also, somewhere in there Marth double jumps out of a dash attack to up air set up. bah. lol
Something I remember about nair to dtilt is if you full hop nair and c-stick down on a bf platform, you land on it with a dtilt. It's great for following rolls and you can switch directions on reaction. 1:14 on vid
So essentially... Zelda should have some kind of lock from her bair to nair if they're registering that consecutive hits. I'll look into that, though it would be really hard to achieve in a real match. Do you have tap jump on or off btw?
And yeah I did that bair > fair in one SH thing today. Could be useful!
This setup I'm talking about though involves her hitting with the behind part of bair... where her thigh is. If she's facing her enemy, and SH bairs, she can still hit them despite her toe being a million miles away XD This is why I want the hitstun of a sourspot bair at later percents because then I can work out if her nair has enough time to come out just before the hitbox of someone's utilt or ftilt to come out.
If she lands it, her air speed accelerates faster than the sourspot's knockback, and in this knockback they're travelling with some variation of stun, so the first hit of nair has a good amount of time to come out. If she lands it... it's a free string of combos from there on as everything combos truly. They can shield it though, but I would probably turn around and jab or dtilt to poke.
I did around 30% out of the bat on a snake when he was at 70%... Bair is 4%, nair is 2%, double dtilt is 13%, usmash 15%. Granted he was a bit confused with what to do as it was something out of the ordinary for zelda to do in general, but because sourspot knockback is low, and the first few hits of nair knockback is fixed, you can rack up some really good damage and it's a setup that would work at any percents (but better at later percents due to increased stun from bair)
EDIT:: sad to see you dropout of the tourney scene villi. Don't lose touch of zelda though xD Would you ever go back?
And yeah I did that bair > fair in one SH thing today. Could be useful!
This setup I'm talking about though involves her hitting with the behind part of bair... where her thigh is. If she's facing her enemy, and SH bairs, she can still hit them despite her toe being a million miles away XD This is why I want the hitstun of a sourspot bair at later percents because then I can work out if her nair has enough time to come out just before the hitbox of someone's utilt or ftilt to come out.
If she lands it, her air speed accelerates faster than the sourspot's knockback, and in this knockback they're travelling with some variation of stun, so the first hit of nair has a good amount of time to come out. If she lands it... it's a free string of combos from there on as everything combos truly. They can shield it though, but I would probably turn around and jab or dtilt to poke.
I did around 30% out of the bat on a snake when he was at 70%... Bair is 4%, nair is 2%, double dtilt is 13%, usmash 15%. Granted he was a bit confused with what to do as it was something out of the ordinary for zelda to do in general, but because sourspot knockback is low, and the first few hits of nair knockback is fixed, you can rack up some really good damage and it's a setup that would work at any percents (but better at later percents due to increased stun from bair)
EDIT:: sad to see you dropout of the tourney scene villi. Don't lose touch of zelda though xD Would you ever go back?
Villi
Smash Lord
Well, if it doesn't even show up as a combo in training mode, which is lenient so far as the game's actual mechanics... I wouldn't count on it. Dude, if you can head butt them with your bair, you might as well just sweet spot them. You'll only pull off that combo on someone you'd **** anyway.
Edit: I edit my posts too much in this thread >_>;;;;; Fair to bair works really, really well. My friends caught on that another one was coming, but you get the fear factor going. Whiff a fair and cross up, sweet spot a bair. Heck, at the right percents, you can hit a sour fair and still sweet spot. They're not in hit stun, but they fall for it... unless they don't, then don't do it again.
Ehh... I'll be going to tournaments bi-weekly, but I'm getting bored of the direction the game is going. All the stuff you're thinking of is fun and stuff, but it won't work against people sitting back waiting for you to mess up. I haven't had a Wii for months... I don't even practice anymore. I'm playing lots of Street Fighter 4 tho. haha
Edit: I edit my posts too much in this thread >_>;;;;; Fair to bair works really, really well. My friends caught on that another one was coming, but you get the fear factor going. Whiff a fair and cross up, sweet spot a bair. Heck, at the right percents, you can hit a sour fair and still sweet spot. They're not in hit stun, but they fall for it... unless they don't, then don't do it again.
Ehh... I'll be going to tournaments bi-weekly, but I'm getting bored of the direction the game is going. All the stuff you're thinking of is fun and stuff, but it won't work against people sitting back waiting for you to mess up. I haven't had a Wii for months... I don't even practice anymore. I'm playing lots of Street Fighter 4 tho. haha
Villi
Smash Lord
Yus, I'm looking forward to the information in this thread, too. I'll probably make use of the frame data even if I can't practice execution as much.
Bandit
Smash Lord
The sourspot Bair is good to know though, because if you mis-space, you then have an option to combo the opponent and stay on the offensive. One thing I do is sourspot Fair opponents who shield, carry momentum passed them, and bair sweetspot. It is usually spaced really well. I would normally go for sweetspot, but I still have problems getting the rising fair to sweetspot and if it sweetspots their shield i get punished, so I always have a back-up plan.
Now in B+, platforms mess up my Usmash to LK combo because they can just tech the platform, so I chase with Nair which leads to more punishment if I don't think the LK will land. It is all about having a back-up plan.
Now in B+, platforms mess up my Usmash to LK combo because they can just tech the platform, so I chase with Nair which leads to more punishment if I don't think the LK will land. It is all about having a back-up plan.
Sadly you're right. I don't like its direction either =( I'm slowly switching to brawl+
I'll see what I can pull out of the bag in the future though xD
I havn't looked into fair > bair. Once kaylo gets us the hitstun and possibly shieldstun we'll see the frame disadvantage. Hopefully the worst that can hit us out of all these potential frame traps are jabs, but we'll see ;D
Bandit
Smash Lord
I can't wait for people to switch to Brawl+. The best part is a lot of the information you are gathering still applies or can be applied to Zelda in B+. The frame data is so necessary, and it has helped incredibly (like it is quicker to drop shield & dsmash instead of shield grab).
MrEh
Smash Hero
The best thing anyone can ever learn is how to use those silly gray buttons at the top of your controller.
You know...L and R? XD
You know...L and R? XD
Villi
Smash Lord
Where'd that come from o.O
MrEh
Smash Hero
I am speaking of the legendary AT that stops all damage.
It's called shielding, and it *****.
obvious troll
Ochobobo
Smash Lord
epic 1500th post, lol
illinialex24
Smash Hero
He guys, I can't test some stuff until likely tomorrow or Sunday, too busy with texture hacks 
GodAtHand
Smash Lord
^ Make me a Rinoa Zelda... please???
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I can't make them atm, although once I get a laptop for my birthday I can. Apparently I can't make them without getting a 7 gig iso or so.... But I am making portraits and making my Wii look epic.
lil cj
Smash Lord
What are some good Zelda textures?
Is there a Palutena Zelda??
Is there a Palutena Zelda??
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I don't actually like any Zelda texture atm. The same is true of essentially all female characters except regular Samus.
alex I know you havn't started it yet but is testing hitstun a lengthy process? I'm trying to convince the coders at the workshop to make a PAL codeset for the debugger >.<
Also.. I'm going to be researching nair now (actually I've done a bit of testing on it already). There's definite potential in that move. It's a case of landing those mini hits before the final one hits.
Also.. I'm going to be researching nair now (actually I've done a bit of testing on it already). There's definite potential in that move. It's a case of landing those mini hits before the final one hits.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Its long as hell. It is long.
KayLo!
Smarter than your average wabbit.
Testing in general is a ***** (aerials especially
), which is why I haven't been able to get to it lately. I'm trying to finish everything before I make another post, because when I got home the other day, I realized I really didn't have much of anything new..... then life got in the way.I'm gonna try to do more tonight, but with BTYF tomorrow, I'm not sure if that's gonna happen. You guys might have to wait til I get back home on Sunday night/Monday morning.
No worries! Hopefully this thread still exists by the time all your data is finished haha =D I would gladly help but sadly I don't have access to an american wii anymore (I have used the debugger before but now I'm on my pal wii which isn't too good for testing this kind of data =( )
MrEh
Smash Hero
Dtilt OoS *****.
Discuss.
Discuss.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I am used to testing lots of stuff. Hitstun is the worst.Testing in general is a ***** (aerials especially
I'm gonna try to do more tonight, but with BTYF tomorrow, I'm not sure if that's gonna happen. You guys might have to wait til I get back home on Sunday night/Monday morning.
goodkid
Smash Lord
Ive done this before, but nair is DI-able pushing them beyond range
illinialex24
Smash Hero
This will likely exist, if you become inactive I'd make another and get the Zelda mod hopefully (
,
if you take me seriously...
What do people make of this data collected by hotgarbage:
Aside from jab > dash attack, is there any way of making use of this stun?, especially at 40% when hitstun increases? Bear in mind jab needs to be fresh for this kind of stun.
We'll all be old and wrinkly by the time her hitstun data comes through haha!This will likely exist, if you become inactive I'd make another and get the Zelda mod hopefully () and just take all your old research and quote it in. So it'd still be cool.if you take me seriously...
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I'm almost done with all my texture hacking so I can do some testing soon.
gm jack
Smash Lord
I'm pretty new to this frame data stuff, but the Usmash comes out almost as fast as a dash attack in my experience. Could it be possible to use a fresh jab followed by a fresh Usmash at 80% to kill lighter characters who miss the DI out of the smash?
Bandit
Smash Lord
It is a great idea, but you have to factor in that jab will knock them horizontally, so you have to dash and hyphen smash to hit the character which may take too many frames.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
I doubt it would because jab should have too much knockback. Wow, I don't use Zelda but I'm posting here more than the Jigglypuff boards.
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