~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[Kataefi]

You're slowly being converted into the realms of sprinkly fairy dust and magical ponies... you'll main her soon

Spoiler

poor poor puff =( /joke >.<

I doubt it would because jab should have too much knockback. Wow, I don't use Zelda but I'm posting here more than the Jigglypuff boards.

This is true. We might be able to make use of the stun at earlier percents though. I'm going to test if a dash grab can reach mario in time before he can attack or spotdodge. I don't care if he throws up a shield as that's still grabbable =D

 

[illinialex24]

Lol, I'm maining Marth or Falcon likely if not puff, but still likely puff.

But Zelda boards are awesome.

 

[MRTW113]

Say, does Zelda have any grab release combos? Like GR>jab or dash attack? It'd be interesting to know. Also, I was wondering about fair/bair sourspots. Can you "trip lock" them repeatedly with sourspots?

 

[Villi]

It's possible to get forced getups with sour fair/bair. Either after a jab or dash attack at certain percents. I don't really remember as I sort of dismissed the experiment as not extremely useful. It's a free whatever as they're getting up, tho. No lock, from what I tried.

Makes them fall down -> rising fair -> falling bair. Adjust for timing. Attempted to rising bair/fair again if I timed the lock correctly, but no dice. Got swweeetspots instead lol

 

[MrEh]

Say, does Zelda have any grab release combos? Like GR>jab or dash attack?

No she does not. Only on Wario, but that's pretty universal for every character.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah I've made an opponent trip before with sourspot kicks at around 80 or so +% Nayru's and jab also trip as well. We just need to figure out the percents >.<

Also... I have a feeling you can force a trip with dtilt no matter it's decay. I was doing dtilts on wario actually in vs mode, and I did each dtilt very slowly. He tripped 7 times in a row and then started stumbling. I tried this again and got 5 trips in a row. I think there's some kind of rhythm/sweetspot/target you need to hit for them to trip. It may even be time based, who knows?

I've been looking at decayed jabs stun. If you use a decayed jab at around 40% it forces them in the air with a hard landing whilst just being outside the next jab range, so you can safely run in and grab or dash attack. Also, if you're perfect with jabs, running grab is guaranteed on Mario from 40-60%, anything else and it's just a setup. There's something about floatiness that affects how early they get a hard landing... I realised jab > grab works better on floaty characters like Peach and Lucario , but no so much on snake.

 

[gm jack]

I doubt it would because jab should have too much knockback. Wow, I don't use Zelda but I'm posting here more than the Jigglypuff boards.

What about at the higher percents, when it knocks them in the air? The slide from the dash should carry you into them a bit, and while in the air, they can only airdodge. That will not be effective against the long hitbox of the Usmash.

If they land, it will punish a spotdodge, pressure a shield (may even force them out of grab range?) and possibly catch them if they try to roll away. I suppose it will be vulnerable to something like a D-tilt, with them getting below the hitbox.

 

[illinialex24]

What about at the higher percents, when it knocks them in the air? The slide from the dash should carry you into them a bit, and while in the air, they can only airdodge. That will not be effective against the long hitbox of the Usmash.

If they land, it will punish a spotdodge, pressure a shield (may even force them out of grab range?) and possibly catch them if they try to roll away. I suppose it will be vulnerable to something like a D-tilt, with them getting below the hitbox.

They can also attack, Most airdodges become safe at like frame 5 and if you can air dodge, you can also attack. So unless it truly combos you should go for dash attack, which we know. But I thought we were talking jab F-smash.

 

[KayLo!]

Defensive Moves & Jumping/Landing -- COMPLETE! + incomplete Aerial Moves

Kataefi's gonna hate me by the time this is done, lol.....

I got distracted by wifi. But here's some more frame stuff in the meantime.

Kataefi, I promise I will have some hitstun data by tomorrow! (Unless I get distracted by wifi matches again..... *cough*) It just takes so long, and my attention span is so short..... ;-;

So, yeah, finished Defensive and Jumping/Landing.... plus there's more aerial stuff.... =X

*Spotdodge, airdodge, and roll stuff is mostly from K Prime's thread, but I retested it anyway.... just to be thorough....

Defensive Moves
Shield: 1 frame
Shield Drop: 7 frames

Spotdodge
Startup: 1
Invincibility: 2-20
Cooldown: 21-25

Airdodge
Startup: 1-3
Invincibility: 4-29
Cooldown: 30-49

Roll (Forward/Back)
Startup: 1-3
Invincibility: 4-19
Cooldown: 20-31

Jumping/Landing
Short Hop *hold jump for 6 frames or less
Startup: 1-6
Airborne: 7-50

Full Hop *hold jump for 7 frames or more
Startup: 1-6
Airborne: 7-74

Landing (Soft): 2 frames
Landing (Hard): 4 frames

Aerial Moves
Nair
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23 (5 hits)
Cooldown: 24-
Autocancels:
Landing Lag:

Fair
Startup: 1-7
Hitbox: 8-12
Cooldown: 13-
Autocancels:
Landing Lag:

Bair
Startup: 1-4
Hitbox: 5-8
Cooldown: 9-
Autocancels:
Landing Lag:

Uair
Startup: 1-13
Hitbox: 14-16
Cooldown: 17-
Autocancels:
Landing Lag:

Dair
Startup: 1-14
Hitbox: 15-24
Cooldown: 25-
Autocancels:
Landing Lag:

 

[illinialex24]

Wow amazing stuff. Thanks so much.

 

[MrEh]

Aerial Moves
Nair
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6-7, 10-11, 14-15, 18-19, 22-23 (5 hits)
Cooldown: 24-
Autocancels:
Landing Lag:

Nair OoS YEAH!

 

[KayLo!]

Jab Frame Data COMPLETE!

So, jab's frame data is now complete, including hitstun and shield stun advantages/disadvantages. I retested hotgarbage's data just to be on the safe side, but it ended up being the same anyway.

I didn't test any of the hitstun advantages with DI because I felt like it wasn't worth the trouble.... and this already took a while. x.x

Once the opponent is able to airdodge, you have a +10 frame advantage if they decide to airdodge with no DI.... if they DI, you can just estimate that the advantage will be a little less than that. (I think hotgarbage said +7.)

Also, for now there's no data for the advantage if they tech.... I haven't checked the IFs on teching yet.

Tomorrow I'm going to do dtilt. I did jab first just to make sure I was doing it correctly.... it was easier since there's no tripping/stumbling shenanigans like there are with dtilt.

Enjoy!

Jab
Startup: 1-10
Hitbox: 11, 13, 15 (3 hits)
Cooldown: 16-23

Hitstun Advantage (all hits connecting)
Fresh, on Mario
0%: +8
10%: +10
20%: +12
30%: +14
40%: +20
*at approx. 40%, a fresh jab causes Mario to become airborne, adding +4 frames of hard landing lag to his hitstun. at this percentage, he cannot avoid the extra lag.
50%: +21
60%: +23
70%: +25
80%: +27
90%+: +10 (with no DI & airdodge, counted until airdodge IFs begin), +? (with tech)
*starting at approx. 90%, Mario has enough time to airdodge or tech the ground upon landing.

Stalest, on Mario
0%: +7
10%: +9
20%: +10
30%: +11
40%: +13
50%: +14
60%: +15
70%: +21
*at approx. 70%, a stale jab causes Mario to become airborne, adding +4 frames of hard landing lag to his hitstun. at this percentage, he cannot avoid the extra lag.
80%: +22
90%: +23
100%: +25
110%: +26
120%: +27
130%+: +10 (with no DI & airdodge, counted until airdodge IFs begin), +? (with tech)
*starting at approx. 130%, Mario has enough time to airdodge or tech the ground upon landing.

Fresh, on Jigglypuff
0%: +8
10%: +11
20%: +13
30%: +15
40%: +21
*at approx. 40%, a fresh jab causes Jigglypuff to become airborne, adding +4 frames of hard landing lag to her hitstun. at this percentage, she cannot avoid the extra lag.
50%: +23
60%: +26
70%+: +10 (with no DI & airdodge, counted until airdodge IFs begin), +? (with tech)
*starting at approx. 70%, Jigglypuff has enough time to airdodge or tech the ground upon landing.

Fresh, on DK
0%: +8
10%: +10
20%: +11
30%: +13
40%: +15
50%: +22
*at approx. 50%, a fresh jab causes DK to become airborne, adding +5 frames of hard landing lag to his hitstun. at this percentage, he cannot avoid the extra lag.
60%: +23
70%: +25
80%: +27
90%: +28
100%+: +10 (with no DI & airdodge, counted until airdodge IFs begin), +? (with tech)
*starting at approx. 100%, DK has enough time to airdodge or tech the ground upon landing.

Shield Stun Disadvantage
*tested fresh on Mario at 0%

After hitting a shield with this move, Zelda can shield on frame 45.
The opponent is safe to drop their shield on frame 30.

Disadvantage: -8
*Note: this includes the 7 frames it takes to shield drop.

 

[Kataefi]

<33333333s

This is brilliant stuff! Stale jabs are very good for throws and dash attacks I see, as jab won't push too far and it would be a guaranteed setup. I might try and stale it offline in matches and see if there are any good results.

EDIT:: omg... I just realised there hardly is a difference between fresh and stale jabs :?

 

[KayLo!]

EDIT:: omg... I just realised there hardly is a difference between fresh and stale jabs :?

Well, looking purely at the data, no, there isn't. The difference is mostly in which percentages you get certain advantages.

However, hitstun advantage doesn't fully account for knockback distance/speed if you're looking for followups. With a stale jab, Mario didn't get pushed away nearly as far as with a fresh one.

So, even though you get the advantage with a fresh jab, at higher percentages Mario is knocked back pretty far. It would take too many frames to run to him and follow up with anything, except maybe a dash attack depending on which way he DIs.

 

[Kataefi]

Well, looking purely at the data, no, there isn't. The difference is mostly in which percentages you get certain advantages.

However, hitstun advantage doesn't fully account for knockback if you're looking for followups. With a stale jab, Mario didn't get pushed away nearly as far as with a fresh one.

So, even though you get the advantage with a fresh jab, at higher percentages Mario is knocked back pretty far. It would take too many frames to run to him and follow up with anything, except maybe a dash attack depending on which way he DIs.

True... but with a stale jab she can definitely truly combo... I tested this last night but I just needed the stun frames to confirm it.

It will only work when they're moderately close to you and it normally works for a large percent window when jab is at it's most stalest.

 

[Villi]

Eek, I could imagine a match where Zelda tried to keep a stale jab. So what are possible followups with a fresh jab at 40%? She has +20, but I imagine it knocks the OP pretty far away? Compared to stale at 70%, is it closer or farther?

Is it possible to test Zelda's run speed for practical purposes? Since we're doing knockback growth things, we can measure her run speed in brawl miles/frame. Then it would be possible to just pick up a calculator and check what she can follow up with after determining knockback. xD

 

[Kataefi]

Fully staled jab at anything over when Mario becomes airbourne or from what I've just tested, 60%, means you can truly combo into a running dash grab or dash attack. I'm 100% certain of this now. I don't know about under, I'm sure you can get dash attacks in.

I'm not too sure about fresh jab setups... but it shouldn't make too much of difference as the stun times are basically the same... it's the knockback that's different. It works better staled because it doesn't knock them back as far thus closing the distance faster when she runs to catch them.

 

[MrEh]

Too bad you're never going to have a stale jab.

It's not exactly spammable ya know. XD

 

[Kataefi]

Too bad you're never going to have a stale jab.

It's not exactly spammable ya know. XD

It doesn't have to be fully staled... it just needs to have the right knockback. It only needs to stale once or twice for knockback to be reduced.

 

[gm jack]

Too bad you're never going to have a stale jab.

It's not exactly spammable ya know. XD

If you are playing someone without any good spacing moves, it is actually fantastic for p***ing them off. It does note worthy damage, stuns, pushed away etc with pretty decent range. Especially when they think you are just toying with them rather than using a slower smash, people get frustrated. Zelda is known for smashing and kicking the

A jab or two if they run at you could easily get the decay set up for that dash attack if you feel their playing leaves them open to jabs. While it may not be great alone, Zelda is great when they are in the air and you are grounded, and lots of characters will struggle to get back down safely.

It may be worth considering in a friendly at any rate.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Kat, a vote to change the topic to the new NL thing?

------------------

Hey guys. Me and Kat discovered a new tech and possibly the physics behind Nayru's Love. I'll be posting the videos soon.

Basically it involved B reversal Love Jumps which in turn will reverse your momentum after being it. This opportunity arises at the breaking point of hitstun (typically this is when you would f-air and fast fall), OR jump to do regular love jumps.

Note that at this point, which is the peak of your trajectory in terms of height, you can smack the joystick down and initiate fast-falling without any aerial attacks. This new downward momentum has the ability to use NL as a vessel, letting you essentially fast-fall NL, in any direction between down-left and down-right.

Until I get the videos uploaded you can see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LraLkK3wyPs

At about 1:02 you see NinjaLink fast fall out of the tumble animation. That has to happen before the tech will work. Hm, I guess this means all credit goes to Ninjalink for the discovery.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah it was a very weird nayru's jump I've never seen before =O

I don't think we discovered it... I think it's always lingered but no one's ever really had a chance to explain it. I think there's also slightly more to it but we'll need to get the smash researchers to look into it probably as they'll have a more informed judgment of what exactly is going on.

Basically, I saw sinking love jump.... but he wasn't jumping straight up or away from me... but instead towards me... as if the knockback had been completely reflected and bounced back.

Could this be a possibility to survive greater knockback from a move similar to bucket braking?

 

[NinjaLink]

i guess i could take credit....i didnt think it was anything new :-\

Oh god u still call it love jump....

Also her jab is an Anti-Air.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Ha, well until a better name comes around...

Anywho, about Nayrus Love, recently it's been turning around a lot of people. I think the last crystal might have some kind of mario's cape effect. It's happened more than 5 times but I only started paying attention due to a recent post about the subject somewhere.

Usually it happens when they're on the edge of the hitbox and their move (captain's jab is one i recall) clashes. I don't have the time to test stuff for a little while, so any theories could help.

 

[MrEh]

If you could angle Zelda's Fsmash upwards, that would be so awesome!

 

[Kataefi]

Oh god u still call it love jump....

It's a habit >.> I hate the name too... it's just I type fast and don't really think of the silly name.

 

[KayLo!]

Anywho, about Nayrus Love, recently it's been turning around a lot of people. I think the last crystal might have some kind of mario's cape effect. It's happened more than 5 times but I only started paying attention due to a recent post about the subject somewhere.

Usually it happens when they're on the edge of the hitbox and their move (captain's jab is one i recall) clashes. I don't have the time to test stuff for a little while, so any theories could help.

That's something I can test if people can bear to wait until Monday. I have two tournies this weekend (one's Brawl+.... I might go all Zelda and see if I do better with her there =X), so I won't be able to do any testing until after.

It's definitely possible that Naryu's has some cape-like effects, especially since it has that weird property of spinning people in front of you. The mechanics of it might produce a reversing effect under some conditions.

 

[NinjaLink]

I should test as well. Also the descending Nayrus. I believe all i did was press b while forcing a fastfall.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I couldn't sleep so I played a little smash. It seems this FF NL thing could be quite good at edgeguarding.

I got hit trying to edgeguard someone and did the Love Fall (Just for you, ninjalink ), then landed a spike (since you retain your second jump, this is quite easy to do).

However, I think the move it self has lots of potential. You could come back and knock away a falcon for example out of recovery range.

This move seems to resemble a sort of off-stage DACUS to me.

 

[gm jack]

I should test as well. Also the descending Nayrus. I believe all i did was press b while forcing a fastfall.

This is what it looked like. It didn't seem like you were falling especially fast, but having the NL come out at the same time made it look pretty .

Still, it could be useful if someone try to hit out out of the air with a projectile. Might annoy more than just dodging it, as it could limit their air approaches on you while you are geting back to ground.

 

[illinialex24]

Wow sorry I've been trying to help my friend hack his Wii and he has 4.0..... Not looking good. I'll check your data very soon Kataefi.

 

[NinjaLink]

Sorry for the lack of posts guys. I'm confirming the method for the descending Nayrus. Its just when ur in hitstun u fast fall a NL and it descends fast. U can aerial before it also, just have to buffer an NL right after.

 

[SinkingHigher]

For some reason it seems to me that you fall faster when you fast-fall out of the tumbling animation.

Is there a way to test this?

 

[Kataefi]

I know how to fast fall the nayru's... I'm just having difficulty angling it left and right as I fast fall. It almost feels like you're flying around with it at certain times.

Also kay's testing dtilt and she's being extra detailed with it, so I cannot wait for the results. <3333 Kaylo!

 

[MRTW113]

So NL, then immediately fastfall when in tumble animation? Confused...

In the wifi waiting room, I was LKing the bag and noticed when you use jab to push something off the ledge, it puts you in a pretty good position for FF AFA. At mid % with jab's hitstun advantage, could it combo on certain characters?

 

[SinkingHigher]

Not quite. I'll try to make this easy but im a little incoherent right now.

Testing:

1. Get hit by relatively powerful strike (Ike F-smash)
2. When tumbling and flying away, hit down multiple times. (This is so you can see for yourself around which point you can fast fall out of the tumble. Note: This is the same point you can jump out of the tumble.) Once you get the idea...

Performing:

1.a) At the point of being able to fast fall you just found, smack the joystick down (to make sure it registers as fast fall and not just a down motion).
1.b) Optional: Fast fall left or right here. Anything between down-left and down-right will work.
2. Hit B once you initiate the fast fall (You should see zelda actually doing the fast fall before anything else happens. The time frame is not as limited as it might seem)

So, in conclusion:

Tumble
Fast-fall
NL.

 

[NinjaLink]

I thought i mentioned the dtilt lock percents on certain chars already. If not oops. i kno i told DarkM about it like a long time ago. The lock occurs on MK around 48% and he pops from the dtilt around 90% i think. I forgot the exact percents.

Yea fast fall the tumble then NL. Remember u have to NL right before the whooshing sound from the knockback is over or during it. U can Bair then do it, its just more precise timing. Kaylo and I were testing it. We both seem to get it every time. As for direction, u have to have momentum in that direction already. U fast fall while holding a direction. U can also B-Reverse the NL as well.

 

[SinkingHigher]

As for direction, u have to have momentum in that direction already.

:/

Assuming I'm understanding you correctly, I am sure you can fall in any direction you want. In your video against Snake you fast falled towards him even though you were travelling away from him.

Anyway, I've been trying to find some use for an aerial before the fast fall. I'm hoping there's something that can be done with it.

 

[NinjaLink]

I can get hit away from him but I held towards him before i NLed. Look at it again closely.

just wanted to add. I did it to weak moves at low percent. Tested with sheiks ftilt at like 50ish and sheiks dtilt before that.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Anyway, I've been trying to find some use for an aerial before the fast fall. I'm hoping there's something that can be done with it.

I guess it could be used to counter someone chasing Zelda after hitting her with a weak attack. The fall with Nayru would then help her to get back to the ground.