~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[powuh_of_PIE]

Din to Uair sounds like a good idea. Not sure if I'd ever be in the right situation for the spike, though.

It works when the situation allows. Just gotta jump to the right height for it

In fact, Din --> Fair happens a lot more for me than either of those.

 

[Kataefi]

I'd love to help out with the Nair research, I've been researching Nair autocancel setups into other stuff privately for a while but I'm at an impasse. I'm having difficulty figuring out how to consistently send the enemy in the same direction - too many variables are involved. The distance between Zelda and the enemy, which side the enemy is on, how many hits connect - too many things to control. I have, however, been able to chain Nair into Dtilt, Dsmash, and Usmash before. Only sparingly, but it would be a real asset if it could be figured out.

I worked out they generally move where nair touches them. For example, if you nair their left shoulder or leftside, they;ll move to the left, and this applies to the right also. If you nair in the centre of them, they pop up.

Most of the time in the heat of things, I normally chase with a usmash because they tend to pop up in the air more for me whenever I do. Sometimes it happens all too fast for me to make the right choice whether they go in the air or slide on the ground.

 

[NinjaLink]

i usually nair to bair to bair. I think i got that recorded. I'll look in a second.

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3b_e8T6_wo

1:41

 

[powuh_of_PIE]

I worked out they generally move where nair touches them. For example, if you nair their left shoulder or leftside, they;ll move to the left, and this applies to the right also. If you nair in the centre of them, they pop up.

Most of the time in the heat of things, I normally chase with a usmash because they tend to pop up in the air more for me whenever I do. Sometimes it happens all too fast for me to make the right choice whether they go in the air or slide on the ground.

I missed that, in all that testing I missed that. Thanks Kataefi, I'm gonna start working that in to my game ^ ^

 

[MRTW113]

I worked out they generally move where nair touches them. For example, if you nair their left shoulder or leftside, they;ll move to the left, and this applies to the right also. If you nair in the centre of them, they pop up.

This is the last hit right? I always thought it depended on which way Zelda faced. Guess I was wrong. Never knew about that middle hit, or at least haven't done it battle. Nair->Uair?

 

[KayLo!]

Forgot I hadn't posted this. K Prime tested half-staled dtilt on Mario.

Dtilt half staled on Mario (I used dtilt 5 times for half stale)

0%: -6
10%: -5
20%: -3
30%: -2
40%: -1
50%: +1
60%: +2
70%: +4
80%: +5
90%: +6
100%: +8
110%: +9
120%: +11
130%: -6 (pop up)

Also, I need to redo shield stun (or rather, test it more extensively), so ignore those numbers for now. I'll repost everything all pretty with new info after Apex.

 

[MRTW113]

Nice! Thanks for the frame data, Kaylo!

Wondering if DThrow has followups. If they DI low, you can hit them with a dash attack as they land, if they DI high, you can up smash them, and if they attack, you can sheild grab them again. Possible?

This thread has been kind of quiet lately, so wondering if it'd revive a bit.

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah it has been quiet lately. I spoke to hotgarbage recently about nair... this is what he posted:

Just so you know, I got the nair information. In brief it allows for some pretty cool setups, such as guaranteed dsmash and usmash; your follow-up depending on how you space the nair. I'll post more in-depth info tomorrow, I'm too tired atm :V.

Kaylo's also got more numbers on decayed dtilts so she'll post those soon after Apex I beileve =D

As for Dthrow, I honestly think there aren't many setups for it at all. It's too easy to DI away. What about buffering a move though based on their DI? I wonder if she can pseudo chaingrab at low percents if she buffers another Dthrow (for low DI), or get something else guaranteed (for other DI).

 

[KayLo!]

Kaylo's also got more numbers on decayed dtilts so she'll post those soon after Apex I beileve =D

I posted the half-staled dtilt numbers a few posts ago. =X

The only other numbers I plan on getting are half-staled on DK and Jiggs for weight comparison. If I finished fully staled and fresh dtilt.... I honestly can't remember what I tested so far..... @.@

Oh, and I still have to do the trip rate on dtilt.

 

[MrEh]

As for Dthrow, I honestly think there aren't many setups for it at all. It's too easy to DI away.

DM mentioned that the Dthrow is useless as a traditional setup. He also said that he always sees Zelda players Dthrow, and then try to follow up with something.

Obviously, that doesn't work.

 

[Kataefi]

>.< sorry kaylo... I completely missed that when I was posting. I'll put those values in the OP. And yeah I'm not surprised about Dthrow, otherwise something would have been discovered by now.

 

[KayLo!]

DM mentioned that the Dthrow is useless as a traditional setup. He also said that he always sees Zelda players Dthrow, and then try to follow up with something.

Obviously, that doesn't work.

Yeah, I learned that real quick.

Occasionally I'll get a dthrow > bair or dthrow > usmash, but that's if the opponent does some funky DI that basically asks for it. Actually, dthrow sometimes puts me in a bad position vs. certain characters, especially if I try to follow up and find that I can't (when, say, I didn't predict/read their DI right).

Getting grabs with Zelda is kind of a ***** anyway, but I'm liking uthrow a lot. Baiting airdodges is fun.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

I still like D-throw though. It doesn´t offer any guaranteed followups but still... Many people like to attack directly out of it (=shieldgrab) or DI away and then somehow forget to do anything else for a while.

 

[MrEh]

Treat it like any other bad Dthrow. Dthrow and run into a shield.

Follow up accordingly.

 

[MRTW113]

[COLOR="MediumTurquoise" Actually, dthrow sometimes puts me in a bad position vs. certain characters, especially if I try to follow up and find that I can't[/COLOR]

Just learned that. Died by Marths fair tip. Chasing after DThrow is becoming a bad habit

FF Nair-> All Smashes, but I find it hard to decide to DSmash or FSmash if someone goes off to the side, because it might not reach or will be in the wrong way.

 

[Kataefi]

So here's some nair info:

Whewwwwww~ Now that Apex is done (amazing matches btw; you should watch them when they're uploaded), Zelda's nair.



First off a bit of general information I got during my limited testing: (being a zelda main you probably already know a good deal of this )

- There are 5 hits to the move, with the 5th one having the knockback (that being the hit you want to avoid if you're attempting a follow-up obviously).

- The first 4 hits have no knockback growth and cannot be DI'd or SDI'd. As such any follow-ups are guaranteed.

- From my limited testing I found using her nair on a grounded opponent could result in 4 different general trajectories: a low trajectory, a low trajectory from a higher position off the ground, a straight up trajectory, and a straight down trajectory.



Now then, about each one:

Low trajectory: This is done by hitting with one hit of the nair, it doesn't matter which one. The ideal positioning is to hit the grounded opponent so that they are launched through you and behind you. You can buffer a turn around dsmash from this; dash attack and jab may work as well. The adv here is +32 frames (which would be more useful if zelda wasn't so bloody slow).

Low trajectory from a high position: This is done by hitting with two hits of the nair... though it may be able to be done otherwise, her nair is finicky :V. Done ideally your opponent ends up traveling at a low trajectory right above your head. Free usmash. Adv is 28 here, as unlike the former hit the opponent isn't forced into a hard landing, they can airdodge before hitting the ground.

Straight up and a straight down trajectory: I don't have any data on these two, as I couldn't get them to happen consistently. If you know how to do so let me know so I can test them . I did have the impression that these trajectories had less stun though.



So yeah. Really frame data's usefulness is rather limited here. You get a sizable advantage from her nair, but actually making use of it requires very nice spacing and reaction to where they are sent.

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Good stuff. Little by little we´re finally starting to learn more about that move.

 

[Kataefi]

I'm going to start chasing more with nair and see how the results go in friendlies and the such. I did a sexy nair > nayru's love combo one time for 25% damage o.O... I've recently been getting them to pop up straight in front of me.

I believe a grab would make a good followup here from nairs that cause hard landings.

 

[Ochobobo]

What exactly decides whether nair sends the opponent forwards or backwards once it's finished? I've never really paid attention too much to any patterns, and I can't test it right now. Is it which direction Zelda's facing when she starts the move?

Edit: This is assuming every hit connects, btw

 

[MRTW113]

What exactly decides whether nair sends the opponent forwards or backwards once it's finished? I've never really paid attention too much to any patterns, and I can't test it right now. Is it which direction Zelda's facing when she starts the move?

Edit: This is assuming every hit connects, btw

I thought your opponent flies depending on which side the last nair hit hits them on.

 

[Kataefi]

Yep if she attacks the opponent's left part of their body, they will physically move to the left, and the same applies for the right.

If she attacks their centre, they tend to pop up, but this is really inconsistent... because the spacing is so fickle.

 

[MRTW113]

Yep if she attacks the opponent's left part of their body, they will physically move to the left, and the same applies for the right.

If she attacks their centre, they tend to pop up, but this is really inconsistent... because the spacing is so fickle.

You can get it consistently if you fastfall from directly above, but why on earth would Zelda be directly above anyone? o_0

 

[Kataefi]

Fun fact: Thanks to diminishing returns, Zelda can dtilt lock Pit from 50% to 151%.

Using ASDI Pit will get out of range at about 79% if the dtilt first connected at point blank, while using SDI he can potentially get out on the first hit.

I'm going to revamp the OP over the weekend so all this information is as clear as crystal. Including what nair can do as well...

Let's talk SDI

What's the most damaging means of punishing multi-hit moves? If we SDI certain ways consistently, could it set up for sweetspots? I've done a sweetspot from Samus' upb and Peach's dair before... Is this a possibility with GnW's bair?

 

[MrEh]

Is this a possibility with GnW's bair?

Maybe if you're Jigglypuff. lol

If Gdub spaces that thing, you probably won't be able to punish it. The turtle is hard to punish period. The reason why some characters don't have a problem with it is because they have attacks that can just beat it outright. (Snake, MK, etc.)

 

[MRTW113]

Is NL a good punisher from SDI? The invincibility frames might help, but will the stalling effect keep you from hitting them if you DI above?

 

[MrEh]

Is NL a good punisher from SDI? The invincibility frames might help, but will the stalling effect keep you from hitting them if you DI above?

It's character dependent. Most of the characters that are able to SDI quickly out of the USmash can usually get away.

Plus, NL is punishable if you miss. Not worth the tradeoff.

 

[Kataefi]

Sorry to change subject:

Hm, to give you an idea of how a character's weight effects dtilt stun here's the advantage Zelda will have on the cast when they're at 50%:


+4: Bowser; Donkey Kong
+5: Mario; Luigi; Yoshi; Wario; Link; Ganon; Samus; Pit; ROB; Dedede; Wolf; Lucario; Ike; Snake; Captain Falcon
+6: Peach; Diddy Kong; Zelda; Sheik; Toon Link; Ice Climbers; Olimar; Falco; Marth; Ness; Lucas; Sonic
+7: ZZS; Kirby; Meta Knight; Fox; Pikachu; G&W;
+8: Jigglypuff



So yeah, it's determined entirely by their weight. Do you have any other requests? (I'm not sure if I've missed anything :V)

 

[Jdietz43]

What exactly decides whether nair sends the opponent forwards or backwards once it's finished? I've never really paid attention too much to any patterns, and I can't test it right now. Is it which direction Zelda's facing when she starts the move?

Edit: This is assuming every hit connects, btw

Forgive a noob if I'm wrong (or if everyone already knows this). But it seems to me the best way to retain any amount of control over which direction an opponent goes after a Nair is your own DI during the move. If you DI towards and through them they get sent behind you, but if you DI backwards (pulling them with you) then they're sent forwards.

SH a Nair while jumping straight up, then DI away from or towards a DeDeDe if you want to see what I mean. It's important not to stop your DI until the move is done, otherwise the natural back and forth motion of the Nair's hits will take back over. So if you intend to hit them forwards and you do it just right: every hit should be on the opponents side of Zelda, so it makes the hits look more like a fox Fair. Seems to work with fairly good consistency for me at least.

Im hoping that this works out ok even when you consider your opponents DI, since as Kataefi said earlier, the first 4 hits of the Nair cant be DI'd or SDI'd. Although I may be overlooking something.

This breaks down a little when you approach from above though, just due to the fact that fewer hits actually connect and make DI'ing less likely to finish before you hit the ground. (probably a good thing, considering the combos being looked at recently)

P.S. Anyone else thinking corneria is looking pretty good for some matchups with the new Uthrow > Uair thats being looked at?

 

[MRTW113]

P.S. Anyone else thinking corneria is looking pretty good for some matchups with the new Uthrow > Uair thats being looked at?

Corneria is a Zelda CP stage, but most places ban it because of the low ceiling and the wall. Heck, Uthrow by itself can kill pretty easily on the fin.

 

[MrEh]

Corneria is usually auto-banned in most places anyway. Zelda players should be happy it's gone anyway.

That stage did more harm then good.

 

[MRTW113]

Hey, is sourspot LK>FF ANA a combo? Wondering...(watched DarkM's Playing With Fire 2)

 

[Kataefi]

Sorry for the lack of lingo haha! I've never really known what ANA is

But whatever you're thinking, no it's not, because sourspots don't produce enough hitstun to capitalise with another attack.

 

[MrEh]

Hey, is sourspot LK>FF ANA a combo? Wondering...(watched DarkM's Playing With Fire 2)

No it's not.

DM just makes it work. lol

 

[Half-Split Soul]

Sorry for the lack of lingo haha! I've never really known what ANA is

ANA = Aerial neutral attack
ABA = Aerial back attack
AFA = Aerial froward attack
AUA = Aerial Up attack
ADA = Aerial down attack

They´re just other names for Nair, Bair, Fair, Uair and Dair, respectively.

MRTW113, just saying, but you might want to start using the latter ones too since they´re more widely understood.

 

[Kataefi]

Dash attack adv on Mario:
0%: 0
10%: +2
20%: +4
22% and up: attack can now be DI'd and teched

This is assuming the dash attack is fresh. Decay really doesn't effect this move much actually; probably because it has "electric" stun.

These are your general options from weak dash attack. It maxes out at +4 frame advantage, it could max out at more but it needs to be tested more extensively at later percents. If we get +2 frames we get a chain of dash attacks from one end of the stage to the other without the opponent being able to DI or ASDI anything. Wishful thinking, but it's possible.

Electric moves stale in damage, but there hitstun stays relatively the same. This is why staled jabs and fresh jabs are very similar, except staled jabs don't knock as far so you can capitalise on it more.

This will therefore apply to dash attack. It also has 3 hitboxes btw instead of 2, the mystery third being the ideal hitbox you want to hit with as it makes them experience a hard landing without actually moving them anywhere,so it's a free Dsmash.

Also... if the opponent doesn't tech... send out a din's to get 'em

(credit to hotgarbage)

Also Kaylo no worries about the frame testing. Hopefully you can help me out later on

 

[MRTW113]

ANA = Aerial neutral attack
ABA = Aerial back attack
AFA = Aerial froward attack
AUA = Aerial Up attack
ADA = Aerial down attack

They´re just other names for Nair, Bair, Fair, Uair and Dair, respectively.

MRTW113, just saying, but you might want to start using the latter ones too since they´re more widely understood.

Sorry, been hanging around AiB too much. _air makes more sense, buts its easier to write AUA/ANA, etc...

 

[SinkingHigher]

Hi all. I was just wondering what you guys thought about d-air on a grounded opponent > b-air sweetspot. Granted its quite situational.

I don't really have anyone to test it on. My bad if it's been discussed already.

 

[MRTW113]

Hi all. I was just wondering what you guys thought about d-air on a grounded opponent > b-air sweetspot. Granted its quite situational.

I don't really have anyone to test it on. My bad if it's been discussed already.

I thought it was briefly mentioned here, but I thought there was some issue of Zelda attacking from above anyone in the first place. Makes a good surprise, I guess.

 

[Kataefi]

At 100+% fresh dair gives +10 hitstun btw...

But this is in perfect control situations where you land on the ground straight away and attack after. However, it doesn't take into consideration bair, which is 5 frames... I think it needs to be looked into more.

Also... footstooling seems to be the new craze. Footstool > nayru's is legit btw - it seems to fall rapidly from a footstool. Can you footstool someone's shield?

 

[Half-Split Soul]

You can do the footstool jump from someone´s shield, but it won´t cause them to do the "spring animation" aka no lag for them. Simply put, no footstool combos if they shield.