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KayLo! · Apr 8, 2009

Dtilt Frame Data -- Shield Stun COMPLETE, Hitstun In Progress (Mario almost complete)

I've started hitstun data for dtilt, but it's nowhere near complete yet. I plan on doing the hitstun data for each character since it varies much more for dtilt than it does for jab; not only that, but dtilt is a much more important move for Zelda.

I'm also going to test tripping rates for dtilt, because a fresh dtilt trips a lot more often than a stale one, and the advantage you get from a trip is huge.

The reason why Mario isn't done yet is because I want to find out if/when dtilt > utilt/ftilt becomes a true combo on each character. The case might be that they can always airdodge through it or otherwise get launched too high.

I'll try to get this done as quickly as I can, but it takes a very long time.... however, I think I've found a solution to the Z button problem I was having with debug mode, so that's good news!

Enjoy.

Dtilt
Startup: 1-4
Hitbox: 5-11
Cooldown: 12-24

How Dtilt Hits Work
When hit with dtilt, the opponent can react in one of 5 ways:

(1) The opponent can trip

- This is their normal, in-place trip animation.
- Once the opponent trips, Zelda is guaranteed a followup because the advantage will always be +19
- On frame 20, the opponent can get up, get-up attack, etc., but Zelda will always be able to hit first. For example, if they get up, the first frame on which they can shield is frame 40.
- Once the opponent starts to become airborne, they will no longer trip.
- The fresher the dtilt, the higher the tripping rate. The difference is fairly significant.

(2) The opponent can flinch

- This is their normal hitstun animation.
- Each character has two versions: a low-percentage one and a mid-high percentage one.
- I can't say for sure whether the higher-percentage animation is longer (since hitstun factors in), but since characters suffer more hitstun at higher percentages anyway, it doesn't really matter.

(3) The opponent can stumble forward

- This animation is different from the normal hitstun animation.
- It seems to happen only when you string together multiple dtilts.

(4) The opponent can rear/stumble backward

- This animation is different from the other two.
- Like (3), it seems to happen only when you string together multiple dtilts.

*Note for (3) and (4): Not all characters seem to have both of these animations, but they usually have at least one or the other. For example, Pikachu and Mario have both "stumble forward" and "stumble backward" animations, but Snake has only a "stumble forward" animation.

*Note #2 for (3) and (4): I couldn't test the hitstun advantage for these animations since they only occur randomly when Zelda dtilts repeatedly, but they don't look like their animations are much longer than a normal flinch. There may be a difference of ~1 or 2 frames.

(5) The opponent becomes airborne after a certain percentage

- The percentage at which this happens is character-specific based on weight/fall speed/etc.
- At the lower end of the "airborne percentages," it's possible to catch them again, immediately, with dtilt's vertical range. This is only possible after a stale dtilt, and it is not guaranteed (they can airdodge).
- Once they become airborne, they can airdodge or tech the ground upon landing.
- After a certain percentage, they can also attack or use their double jump.

In general, tripping is the longest animation and gives you the most advantage. However, once they become airborne, you can often follow up with ftilt or utilt unless they are sent up too high.

Tripping Percentages
Out of 100 dtilts, Mario tripped....

?% of the time with fresh dtilts @0%
?% of the time with stale dtilts @0%
?% of the time with fresh dtilts @50%
?% of the time with stale dtilts @50%

Jigglypuff tripped....

?% of the time with fresh dtilts @0%
?% of the time with stale dtilts @0%
?% of the time with fresh dtilts @50%
?% of the time with stale dtilts @50%

DK tripped....

?% of the time with fresh dtilts @0%
?% of the time with stale dtilts @0%
?% of the time with fresh dtilts @50%
?% of the time with stale dtilts @50%

Hitstun Advantage (flinch only), by Character
*Note: Advantage if the opponent trips is always +19

Fresh, on Mario
0%: -5
10%: -3
20%: -1
30%: +1
40%: +3
50%: +5
60%: +8
70%: +10
80%+: -6
*at approx. 80%, a fresh dtilt pops Mario into the air. Dtilt > utilt/ftilt combos become possible, but they are not guaranteed until later percentages, as the opponent can airdodge through them.

Stalest, on Mario
0%: -6
10%: -5
20%: -4
30%: -3
40%: -2
50%: 0
60%: +1
70%: +2
80%: +3
90%: +4
100%: +5
110%: +7
120%: +8
130%: +9
140%: +10
150%: +11
160%: -6
*at approx. 160%, a stale dtilt pops Mario into the air. Dtilt > utilt/ftilt combos become possible, but they are not guaranteed until later percentages.

Shield Stun Disadvantage
*tested fresh on Mario at 0%

After hitting a shield with this move, Zelda can shield on frame 31.
The opponent is safe to drop their shield on frame 6 and can react on frame 21.

Disadvantage: -10
*Note: this includes the 7 frames it takes to shield drop as well as stun frames in which neither character can move.

Kataefi · Apr 8, 2009

<333333 Kaylo! I cannot comprehend my existence without Kaylo... she is truly the epitome of existence.

I'm not being serious but I AM incredibly thankful for all this.

This is implying that at the stalest level, dtilt lock works on Mario at 100%. That's actually not very useful... but when is dtilt going to be fully staled anyways? >.>

I think there's an opportunity where dtilt can be semi-staled slightly at around 100%, and NOT knock them up in the air, yet give enough of a frame advantage to get a utilt in. Like you can get a utilt on Mario at 140% when dtilt's fully staled - if it's not fully staled, this percentage would be earlier. I wonder if there's a way to work it out? It could be a simple case of... stale dtilt twice, then simply use it at 100% or whatever kills Mario and voila, histun leads into utilt into kill.

I'm suspecting it won't be as easy as that though xD

KayLo! · Apr 8, 2009

If it would be more useful, I can test "partially staled" instead of fully staled.

I'd do it for each level of staleness, but that would take.... forever if I do every character. x.x Especially since dtilt trips a lot, so I'd have to keep killing Zelda and re-staling dtilt every time it trips.

Or I can do fresh, half-staled, and fully staled so that the rest can just be estimated. I'm willing to do a little extra work for dtilt since it's a pretty important move.

Also, <33333 you guys too. :laugh:

Pika and Zelda are the only two characters I'd do all this shiz for, hehe.

goodkid · Apr 8, 2009

Haha, yeah I've done the descending Nayrus multiple times a long time ago when I was trying to figure out Love Jump(not a dumb name), I just didn't know how to control it >_<. I thought it was just something that occurs randomly, but I don't know if u have to hold fastfall. After pikachu does a f-throw on Zelda, if u just NL right after it automatically fast-falls, it may have to do w/ your height & if you are in hitstun.

Also I've done Love Jump from shield, I don't know how to repeat it & I have a replay but horrid video quality so if someone wants to upload it...

NinjaLink · Apr 8, 2009

This is why shes amazing <333. Remember training mode moves dont stale and moves are always 100%. Maybe that can help u in some way.

Kataefi · Apr 8, 2009

Kaylo is there anyway to force a trip with dtilt?

KayLo! · Apr 8, 2009

NinjaLink said:
Remember training mode moves dont stale and moves are always 100%. Maybe that can help u in some way.

Yeah, I thought about that, but Training Mode -- for some stupid reason -- runs on slightly different mechanics than regular Brawl mode. Moves do slightly more or less damage, and knockback is a little different. I found that out when I was doing KO percentages for Pika.

The difference isn't huge, but for something like hitstun advantage, it's probably better to be as accurate as possible.

EDIT:

Kataefi said:
Kaylo is there anyway to force a trip with dtilt?

Not that I know of. It seemed to be completely random aside from the fact that a fresh dtilt tripped very, very frequently.

NinjaLink · Apr 8, 2009

Kataefi said:
Kaylo is there anyway to force a trip with dtilt?

Fresh dtilts trip more. The physics behind trip inducing moves is that it has to be a move that aims for the legs and doesnt cause the enemy to launch. To see what i mean test it with ZSS' ftilt. Angled down ftilt trips more than a mid/upper ftilt. Also i think it depends what area of zeldas leg u hit with of the dtilt.

Training mode everything is 100%. Vs mode everything on first hit is 105%.

Kataefi · Apr 8, 2009

KayLo! · Apr 8, 2009

NinjaLink said:
Also i think it depends what area of zeldas leg u hit with of the dtilt.

I think this might be true as well. I'll be sure to test that when I do tripping percentages.

For the record, the hitstun advantage testing was all done with the hitbox near the end of her leg. I wasn't super accurate with it since I don't think it affects hitstun (unless you hit with some weird part like the very tip or her body), but.... just in case anyone was wondering.

Weirdly, sometimes phantom hits of dtilt still pop the opponent upwards. I was messing around waiting for the Z button to fix itself, and I got a bunch of phantom hits with dtilt.... but Mario still got launched into the air. Didn't look into it completely, though.

NinjaLink said:
Training mode everything is 100%. Vs mode everything on first hit is 105%.

I remember you telling me this before. Knockback is still affected, though, so it's just easier to do it in Brawl mode.... plus I don't know how it would affect hitstun.

Kataefi said:
It would be grand if you could get the stun time on when it's half-decayed. We could then make informed guesses for values inbetween. I wonder if a formula can be made out of this.

Will do.

On a semi-related note: We should possibly look into how to stale/refresh moves effectively with Zelda. It seems like a lot of her moves work a lot better when they're either completely fresh (her kill moves in particular) or partially/fully staled (jab, dtilt, dthrow).

Maybe I'm just n00b with her, which is probably true, but her moveset doesn't seem to be very good for controlling staleness.

For example: with Pikachu, if you need to refresh a move, he has a pretty good grab game/grab setups and fast pummel, which help in that area. In contrast, Zelda's pummel is fairly slow, and it's tough to get a grab on somebody with her anyway. Her jab is definitely too slow for refreshing other moves, and even dtilt is relatively hard to get if someone knows to avoid it.

Just something to think about.

NinjaLink · Apr 8, 2009

lets see. Fsmash, jab, nair, pummels plus+throw (best option being dthrow for an easier followup) and dins fire. NL can be a good one as well as the startup/ending of Farores.

Knockback is affected of course. D3s uptilt kills marth at 100% in training while in vs mode it kills at 94%.

Kataefi · Apr 8, 2009

Sorry to change subject. I'm probably mistaken, but I think Zelda can fair sweetspot ness on a grab release just very slightly before his airdodge even comes out. Can anyone confirm this?

NinjaLink · Apr 8, 2009

hmm im not sure. I doubt it though. Zelda is slow. BTW Kataefi change the heading to Dtilt-locking or something of that nature.

Kataefi · Apr 8, 2009

Okay cool! I've done that now.

I've been messing around with some dtilt decay. Get 3 dtilts on Marth, and the 4th one combos truly into a utilt at 100% (so far I've tested) and kills him. Tested in vs mode. I made a control set where every button was a shield, and another where the c stick was set to tilts. The latter was given to Zelda, the former to Marth.

I did 3 dtilts on Marth at the beginning. Then I got a 3rd player, Fox, to shoot lasers at Marth and get him to an ideal percent (100% so far based entirely on guesswork by me). Then, I simply did dtilt > utilt on Marth and after the dtilt I would hold his shield button down. The shield didn't come out in time, and utilt hit him, killing him.

I believe this could make a good setup... because the lock stales dtilt anyways at 50/60% onwards. It feels almost like Sheik's Ftilt decay > Usmash tipper, but the dtilt would need to be staled relative to the character's weight, height (utilt doesn't hit small opponents) amongst other things.

MrEh · Apr 8, 2009

Sorry to change subject. I'm probably mistaken, but I think Zelda can fair sweetspot ness on a grab release just very slightly before his airdodge even comes out. Can anyone confirm this?

Bowser can do it because he has 10 extra frames.

Peach can do it because her Fair has ridiculous range.

Zelda though? I can test.

Villi · Apr 9, 2009

Anyone ever dtilt > up smash? It would be great if someone learned the percentage when someone couldn't air dodge up tilt from dtilt, but upsmash is able to hit characters upon landing from an air dodge the majority of the time. The only thing is, it's much weaker because it loses out on 10% damage racking so it would have to 1. be undecayed and 2. be used at a higher percentage for KO. I haven't had the luck/mentality in-game to remember if I had used upsmash within 8 moves of dtilt and know the kill percent of the last hit would be, but I know at least it hits. Anyway, it's a simple solution to an annoying problem.

NinjaLink · Apr 9, 2009

i always dtilted to upsmash. Uptilt CAN hit if they airdodge cause of the lingering hitbox. Uptilt is better being it kills at lowser percent.

gm jack · Apr 9, 2009

It may just be me, but does anyone else seem to get more trips if you hit someone as they are landing?

It's risky, but if you can predict an airdodge or an aerial at head level during an approach, I managed to duck the attack and Dtilt as they landed and it seemed to trip more than usual. Can anyone confirm if trying to trip as they and in the landing animation is more effective than if they are just standing?

Ochobobo · Apr 9, 2009

gm jack said:
It may just be me, but does anyone else seem to get more trips if you hit someone as they are landing?

It's risky, but if you can predict an airdodge or an aerial at head level during an approach, I managed to duck the attack and Dtilt as they landed and it seemed to trip more than usual. Can anyone confirm if trying to trip as they and in the landing animation is more effective than if they are just standing?

Interesting idea, I'll have to try this. Seems like it would come in useful in Zelda dittos when the other one tries to Lightning Kick you while you're on the ground. After you duck and avoid the Lightning Kick completely, she'd fall right in front of you, giving you free access to dtilts. Sounds good even if there isn't an extra chance of tripping.

gm jack · Apr 9, 2009

That's exactly when I found it. I also managed to get it once or twice when they simply didn't cover their fall well. I may have just been lucky though.

SinkingHigher · Apr 9, 2009

It's quite easy with recoveries that cause the helpless falling animation.

iirc the hitbox behind zelda when she d-tilts causes quite a lot of tripping.

MRTW113 · Apr 9, 2009

Villi said:
It's possible to get forced getups with sour fair/bair. Either after a jab or dash attack at certain percents. I don't really remember as I sort of dismissed the experiment as not extremely useful. It's a free whatever as they're getting up, tho. No lock, from what I tried.

Makes them fall down -> rising fair -> falling bair. Adjust for timing. Attempted to rising bair/fair again if I timed the lock correctly, but no dice. Got swweeetspots instead lol

Sorry for the late reply, but did you get sweetspots on the falling bair? I was wondering if you could dtilt trip->RAR rising sourspot bair (trip)->falling sweetspot bair. If it could work, it'd be a +30% combo AND it'd be effective on smaller, lighter characters.

gm jack said:
It may just be me, but does anyone else seem to get more trips if you hit someone as they are landing?

Are you sure that you didn't dtilt spike them? I sometimes spike when they bounce a little as they land...

Ochobobo · Apr 10, 2009

MRTW113 said:
Are you sure that you didn't dtilt spike them? I sometimes spike when they bounce a little as they land...

Oh yeah that makes sense. Dtilting while they're landing would probably cause a very short falling animation which ends with the character lying helpless, which ends up being all we see.

Villi · Apr 10, 2009

MRTW113 said:
Sorry for the late reply, but did you get sweetspots on the falling bair? I was wondering if you could dtilt trip->RAR rising sourspot bair (trip)->falling sweetspot bair.

Don't remember. Probably. @_@

Nope. No forced get ups off of trips allowed.

Ochobobo · Apr 10, 2009

I'm curious about something... When an opponent spams a jab combo on you, you can DI inwards, towards the opponent and eventually reach a point where you can bair sweetspot them.

I haven't tested this thoroughly, but does this work against every weak jab combo? I know it works with Sheik's, maybe Fox's... Would be nice if it worked on GW, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work against MetaKnight, lol.

This would probably be most useful when the opponent thinks they can jab combo you against a wall. But yeah, I know this is highly circumstancial and that players with high experience won't spam jab. Even still, we're on a Triforce of Wisdom quest for knowledge here, lol

illinialex24 · Apr 10, 2009

Sorry I was so lazy, anybody need me to test anything???

MRTW113 · Apr 11, 2009

Ochobobo said:
I'm curious about something... When an opponent spams a jab combo on you, you can DI inwards, towards the opponent and eventually reach a point where you can bair sweetspot them.

I haven't tested this thoroughly, but does this work against every weak jab combo? I know it works with Sheik's, maybe Fox's... Would be nice if it worked on GW, and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't work against MetaKnight, lol.

This would probably be most useful when the opponent thinks they can jab combo you against a wall. But yeah, I know this is highly circumstancial and that players with high experience won't spam jab. Even still, we're on a Triforce of Wisdom quest for knowledge here, lol

You saw this in Nak's combo vid, didn't you?

I thought DI'ing inward while in infinite combos will get you stuck until decently high %s. If the opponent sees you moving inwards, they could just end the combo and use a tilt or smash. It still sounds useful when you're pinned down against a wall.

Ochobobo · Apr 11, 2009

MRTW113 said:
You saw this in Nak's combo vid, didn't you?

I thought DI'ing inward while in infinite combos will get you stuck until decently high %s. If the opponent sees you moving inwards, they could just end the combo and use a tilt or smash. It still sounds useful when you're pinned down against a wall.

lol I still love that video, even though it's kind of outdated now.

I saw it when I was just starting out with Zelda, and it's partially what inspired me to get better with her.

And yeah, this seems like something that could only be useful when against a wall, not against highly experienced players whenever.

stealth3654 · Apr 12, 2009

I was playing some friendlies yesterday (against a MK) and I decided to screw around with the dair for a few matches. While I was playing, I was able to pull of a sour spot dair to lightning kick while MK and I were off the ledge. Once, I hit MK with a dair and it tripped them, leading into a lightning kick. Also, I was able to hit the MK with a dair and then hit him with a lightning kick while he was still stunned.

Do you guys think this should be looked into, already known, or was I just lucky?

KayLo! · Apr 13, 2009

stealth3654 said:
I was playing some friendlies yesterday (against a MK) and I decided to screw around with the dair for a few matches. While I was playing, I was able to pull of a sour spot dair to lightning kick while MK and I were off the ledge. Once, I hit MK with a dair and it tripped them, leading into a lightning kick. Also, I was able to hit the MK with a dair and then hit him with a lightning kick while he was still stunned.

Do you guys think this should be looked into, already known, or was I just lucky?

I don't know if it's known already, but I've done it before too.

I actually use dair a lot when I'm coming down from the air (even though it's pretty unsafe =X), because a) it usually interrupts them if they're trying to utilt/usmash/uair me (it's not fast, but the hitbox lingers as I'm falling into range), and b) if I don't mess up the spacing, I can sometimes get a LK off. Even if I do mess up and the kick sourspots, it can stun them enough that I can string into another move before they react.

It doesn't always work, but the payoff is enough for me to keep trying anyway, lol.

On an unrelated note: I've been practicing Brawl+ lately, so I haven't been doing frame data stuff, but I'll resume tomorrow. Hopefully it'll be a big update, but I tend to get sidetracked/distracted a lot, so no 100% promises.

Just a.... 70% one? Those odds are okay, right? :lick:

NinjaLink · Apr 13, 2009

KayLo! said:
I don't know if it's known already, but I've done it before too.

I actually use dair a lot when I'm coming down from the air (even though it's pretty unsafe =X), because a) it usually interrupts them if they're trying to utilt/usmash/uair me (it's not fast, but the hitbox lingers as I'm falling into range), and b) if I don't mess up the spacing, I can sometimes get a LK off. Even if I do mess up and the kick sourspots, it can stun them enough that I can string into another move before they react.

It doesn't always work, but the payoff is enough for me to keep trying anyway, lol.

On an unrelated note: I've been practicing Brawl+ lately, so I haven't been doing frame data stuff, but I'll resume tomorrow. Hopefully it'll be a big update, but I tend to get sidetracked/distracted a lot, so no 100% promises.

Just a.... 70% one? Those odds are okay, right?

I've been doin this too. Its really good

MRTW113 · Apr 14, 2009

Hmm, watchinhg some Zelda stuff and wondering what an uncharged Din's can set up. I've seen a lot of Din's->USmash, but I've been wondering, with Din's fire stun and all, are there any possible combos, or at least valid followups? Like:
*Dins->USmash
*Din's->Nair?
*Din's to LK (least likely)
*Din's to Utilt (Low %)
*Din's to up angled Ftilt

Just wondering...

NinjaLink · Apr 14, 2009

update first post explaining the descending nayrus.

btw heres dins setups.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h_mGvabqxw

I <3 dins combos!

Kataefi · Apr 14, 2009

I will update everything tonight. Been busy quite recently =D

Ochobobo · Apr 14, 2009

NinjaLink said:
update first post explaining the descending nayrus.

btw heres dins setups.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_h_mGvabqxw

I <3 dins combos!

Also good examples of ledgewarping combos.

SinkingHigher · Apr 14, 2009

Just my two cents:

Extremely situational, but if you Din Glide from a distance so the blast is strong enough, you can go

Din > U-air, which could kill.

Similarly, when someone falls below the stage, say, Snake...

Din > Spike.

They won't still be in hitstun by the time you can get there, but this is a set up, not a lock.

NinjaLink · Apr 14, 2009

SinkingHigher said:
Just my two cents:

Extremely situational, but if you Din Glide from a distance so the blast is strong enough, you can go

Din > U-air, which could kill.

Similarly, when someone falls below the stage, say, Snake...

Din > Spike.

They won't still be in hitstun by the time you can get there, but this is a set up, not a lock.

I thought i already acknowledged this :-\

good stuff though ^_^ It works for me.

Kataefi · Apr 14, 2009

Updated! Check the nayru's section.

Kaylo how's all that stun data going? Good job with everything you've done so far!

What else can we possibly test? Anyone got any key areas they'd like to check out? I've got hotgarbage to check out the first few hits of nair, apparently there's set knockback and possibly advantages frame-wise... might turn out to be a good frame trap if it ever lands.. who knows!

powuh_of_PIE · Apr 14, 2009

Kataefi said:
Updated! Check the nayru's section.

Kaylo how's all that stun data going? Good job with everything you've done so far!

What else can we possibly test? Anyone got any key areas they'd like to check out? I've got hotgarbage to check out the first few hits of nair, apparently there's set knockback and possibly advantages frame-wise... might turn out to be a good frame trap if it ever lands.. who knows!

I'd love to help out with the Nair research, I've been researching Nair autocancel setups into other stuff privately for a while but I'm at an impasse. I'm having difficulty figuring out how to consistently send the enemy in the same direction - too many variables are involved. The distance between Zelda and the enemy, which side the enemy is on, how many hits connect - too many things to control. I have, however, been able to chain Nair into Dtilt, Dsmash, and Usmash before. Only sparingly, but it would be a real asset if it could be figured out.

MRTW113 · Apr 14, 2009

SinkingHigher said:
Din > U-air
Din > Spike

Din to Uair sounds like a good idea. Not sure if I'd ever be in the right situation for the spike, though.

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