~ Fairy Fountain Research Thread: buhbye ol' chum ~

[Kataefi]

I've noted that down in the OP so we don't forget. It would also make a very interesting approach if it were safe on block. We need the likes of Ninjalink and Kaylo with the debugger to look into this.

Anything that combos into a uair is very useful. I've noticed that a uthrow sets up for a uair very nicely at around 50-60% for the majority of character as Zelda recovers movement as they're being shot up in the air. I believe they can jump away from her in time but she gets **** close to them when she uairs.

 

[Villi]

I noticed that, too. It seems to work best when they're right ready to die from up air. I think starting it off 11% under their kill percent is probably best. I can't decide if a full hop or a quick double jump is best. But I have a short list I didn't complete that I'll put up in a sec.

These are training mode. I like these better since the numbers are a little higher than would be true in vs mode and they're easier to test. @_@

Uptilt kill percent, No DI:

Jiggz: 82
G&W: 87
Squirtle: 85
Kirby: 91
MK: 92
Pika: 95
Fox: 92
ZSS: 93
Oli: 95
Falco: 99
Zelda: 93
Sheik: 93
Marth: 100
Peach: 96
IC: 99
Tink: 102
Diddy: 103
Lucas: 104
Pit: 105

Dtilt -> Uptilt kill percent, good DI:

Jiggz: 100
G&W: 106
Squirtle: 104
Kirby: 105
MK: 101
Pika: 107
Fox: 107
ZSS: 108
Oli: 107
Falco: 115
Zelda: 114
Sheik: 114
Marth: 111
Peach: 107
IC: 112
Tink: 105
Diddy: 107
Lucas: 117
Pit: 118

Up Smash, fresh: All hits connect. First, no DI. Second, good DI. *I think this means they have an easier time than most getting out of up smash.

Jiggz: 86-96
G&W: 92-103
Squirtle: 90-106
Kirby: 96-110
MK: 96-106
Pika: 95-114
Fox: 95-111
ZSS: 95-102
Oli: 98-110
Falco: 100-113
Zelda: 95-105
Sheik: 93-105
Marth: 103-117*
Peach: 100-110
IC: 100-110*
Tink: 101-108*
Diddy: 104-110*
Lucas: 101-115*
Pit: 106-119*

Upthrow -> Up air: First no DI; second up air DI'd left/right

Jiggz: 40-43
G&W: 43-46
Squirtle: 51 (resistant to fire)
Kirby: 45
MK: 45
Pika: 48
Fox: 46
ZSS: 48
Oli: 48
Falco: 52-56
Zelda: 47
Sheik: 47
Marth: 54
Peach: 48
IC: 51
Tink: 51
Diddy: 53
Lucas: 53
Pit: 54

Dsmash: First, by the ledge. Second, roll distance away from ledge. No DI. This was difficult to test accurately, so the numbers are low. They're high if they have bad DI, though, which they should if you're down tilting.

I use these numbers more for knowing about when someone is spike bait.

Jiggz: 84-97
G&W: 87-100
Squirtle: 87-100
Kirby: 89-104
MK: 89-104
Pika: 89-104
Fox: 88-103
ZSS: 91-105
Oli: 91-106
Falco: 91-106
Zelda: 93-107
Sheik:
Marth: 94-108
Peach: 96-112
IC: 96-112
Tink: 97-112
Diddy: 97-112
Lucas: 98-113
Pit: 99-115

Er, these are before I knew about bucket braking, so G&W will live longer. I used momentum canceling for everyone with "good DI."

 

[Kataefi]

I remember killing a snake at something ridiculous like 70 something percent from a uthrow > uair. It would work really well against characters with slow air speed, bad airdodges, and non-disjointed dairs or dairs that cannot beat her uair.

I'll test this some more on my wii tomorrow. I need sleep ^^

 

[NinjaLink]

Thanks! I'll edit the OP with this information. If you could get data on the hitstun of her moves that would be very useful.

About din's... you know the 31 frames for a short burst?, does that include the 9 frames after releasing the charge or is it 31 frames for the projectile to come out + the 9 frames for it to detonate?

yes it includes the 9 frames hence the tap. total 31.

As for the dins frame trap. I highly doubt it. I use the dins in combos since day one of the jpn release. If i happen to miss the juggle trap, i'll get hit if they block.

 

[Kataefi]

Honestly... uthrow > uair, it seems like a very viable means of racking damage or killing. I think it could be inescapable at a very specific percentage window, even with a double jump from the opponent. Instant 28% or instant death. They can escape with double jump, but this means free potential juggles. And you can bait the potential airdodge and punish.

I'll have to look into this some more. What are people thinking?

 

[Villi]

Well, when I tested it out, I was using two wavebirds on the same channel so everything Zelda did was mirrored by the opponent. It made testing DI much easier.

I was purposely using Zelda's double jump to see if they could do the same before I could input up air. Zelda can double jump before they can, and something I noticed for Sheik was that when that's true, she can catch them out of their double jump with her own.

While they probably could double jump out of it because Zelda's slower, if they do, they should realize if they didn't they'd probably be dead. Next time, they've double jumped on reaction and they're in a bad place. If you fast fall your up air as a good habit, you can at least punish them on landing the first time.

They could air dodge, too (because you can do that before anything else), but that's also pretty easy to just wait out.

If they attack, they'll lose a stock. Since they're at low percent, the option I count on them choosing is the aggressive one ... they probably believe they could take a hit when they can't.

 

[Kataefi]

Does Zelda accelerate faster when she uses both jumps? I think her second jump accelerates very slightly faster than a standard full hop.

I was testing on semi-lightweights like Falco, Peach and Marth and this tends to work from anywhere between 30% to 60% for me personally. Peach gets it the worst, as she has a bad airdodge, a dair that gets beaten, and is generally quite floaty with a worse air speed. Marth's dair could trade... but Falco and Peach would most certainly get hit and die, especially around 50% onwards. I'll work on this some more tomorow.

 

[Villi]

I was going up the weight list and I have percents up until Pit if you didn't notice my edit a few posts up. See if my data is congruent with yours. DI doesn't seem to be much of a factor lol

I dunno about Zelda's double jump acceleration... I did notice that her double jump height is less than her full hop tho. It might be true that it's faster anyway. That's definitely something that could be tested frame by frame tho.

 

[Kataefi]

omg why didn't I notice this before??? 10blinds >.> I'm checking now and I'll edit this post.

EDIT:: from what I've tested of Peach, Marth and Falco:

I got (at the percents they die and this was in training mode

Peach: 50% exactly

Falco: 53% iirc though this one I'll retest.

Marth: 54% exactly iirc

It's almost exactly the same as your's. It also does depend on the position of the victim in the air by possibly even a fraction of a second. I may have started uair at a slight different time to you and this could have affected results. But we're very close nonetheless so far.

That is a very good list. I'll put this in the OP tomorrow as it's very late here ^^. Fall speed and general floatiness seems to make a difference, e.g. Peach dies so easily vertically.

 

[KayLo!]

Frame Data -- Ground Moves, Specials, & Grabs/Throws COMPLETE!

I come bearing more frame data! I've finally finished ground moves, specials, and grabs/throws as far as startup, hitbox, and cooldown frames are concerned.

Kataefi, I know you're still waiting on hitstun & shieldstun info.... I haven't figured out how I'm gonna test that yet, but it'll be the next thing I work on since most of the regular frame stuff is done. I'll probably do it for dtilt, fair/bair, and usmash first.

Also, FW sucks balls, lol. I knew it was easy to interrupt, but I didn't know it was this bad.....

Some of this has already been posted, but I'm listing them together anyway since they're completed "sections."

Ground Moves
Jab
Startup: 1-10
Hitbox: 11, 13, 15 (3 hits)
Cooldown: 16-23

Ftilt (all angles)
Startup: 1-11
Hitbox: 12-14
Cooldown: 15-39

Dtilt
Startup: 1-4
Hitbox: 5-11
Cooldown: 12-24

Utilt
Startup: 1-9
Hitbox: 10-24
*Note: this is the number of frames that utilt is out, total, but its hitbox travels on every frame. At the beginning of these frames, the hitbox will not be active behind Zelda; near the end, it will no longer be active in front of her.
Cooldown: 25-47

Fsmash
Startup: 1-15
Hitbox: 16, 18, 20, 22, 24 (5 hits)
Cooldown: 25-39

Dsmash
Startup: 1-3
Hitbox: 4-5 (front), 12-14 (back)
Cooldown: 15-39
*I haven't tested this fully, but I'm assuming that if their hurtbox is launched within dsmash's back hitbox during frames 12-14, this is when the "double hit" occurs. Makes sense since it only seems to happen as the opponent is moving into Zelda from behind at low-mid percentages.

Usmash
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6, 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 23, 25, 27, 29, 31 (11 hits)
Cooldown: 32-56

Dash Attack
Startup: 1-5
Hitbox: 6-13
Cooldown: 14-37

Specials
Naryu's Love
Startup: 1-12
Hitbox: 13, 16, 19, 22, 25, 28 (6 hits)
Cooldown: 29-59
Invincibility: 5-11
Reflects: 5-44

Din's Fire (Shortest Distance Horizontal)
Startup: 1-30
Hitbox: 31-32
Cooldown: 33-56

Farore's Wind (Part 1)
Startup: 1-10
Hitbox: 11-12
Cooldown: 13-33
*Zelda disappears on frame 34

Farore's Wind (Part 2)
Startup: 0
Hitbox: 1-2
Cooldown: 3-29

Grabs/Throws
Standing Grab
Startup: 1-11
Active: 12-13
Cooldown: 14-29

Dash Grab
Startup: 1-10
Active: 11-12
Cooldown: 13-39

Pivot Grab
Startup: 1-13
Active: 14-15
Cooldown: 16-35

Grab Pummel
Startup: 1-6
Hitbox: 7
Cooldown: 8-31

Fthrow
Startup: 1-26
Hitbox: 27
Cooldown: 28-39

Bthrow
Startup: 1-23
Hitbox: 24
Cooldown: 25-39

Dthrow
Startup: 1-24
Hitbox: 25, 34, 43, 52, 63 (5 hits)
Cooldown: 64-81

Uthrow
Startup: 1-23
Hitbox: 24
Cooldown: 25-39

 

[Kataefi]

This is brilliant! Yeah... I seemed to think FW lingered as an attack for a long time, but the data suggests otherwise. We just need to take extra care when using it.

Hit and shieldstun would be great! I believe with hitstun... stuff like her sourspots cause more hitstun at different percents when fresh. As they decay, the lower the hitstun will become, but as the opponent's percent grows, the greater the hitstun is... so there's like a balance between the two I suppose ^^

 

[Ochobobo]

Invincibility: 5-11
Reflects: 5-44

Epic. The reflecting period for NL lasts so long, lol. Even when all the shards from the crystal are gone people think it's safe to fire that charged projectile.
Nope.

 

[Kataefi]

This is effective sometimes against diddy mains!

 

[NinjaLink]

Wow why is Kaylo so amazing lol

**** i need new zelda vids.

 

[Brinzy]

****, I was far off on Nayru's. I always thought it had invincibility on frame 4... well that sucks.

 

[Ochobobo]

All these escape techniques can be countered by Zelda. Should the opponent airdodge, simply delay the uair and punish. They cannot attack, as Uair beats every Dair in the game or at the very least trades. If they double jump, Zelda can fastfall and pursue with USmash, Utilt or Uair, for free juggle opportunities.

I could very easily be wrong, as I have not tested this thoroughly, but it seems to me that Ike's dair might be able to outrange Zelda's uair. Anyone know if that's true or not?

 

[Kataefi]

Ocho I believe it trades at worst... which would send Zelda down but not kill her. Still, if you guys could randomly throw out uthrow > uair, you'll see some really useful damage racking and potential killing opportunities! (around 40% is best for lighter characters, and then it goes up relative to the character's weight by only miniscule percents).

Just don't rush, watch their DI (they can't DI far away at all!) and follow their actions. If they double jump, start pursuing and juggling! If not, go all out and uair them.

 

[illinialex24]

Kataefi, could you test the rest of the knockback stuff. I know horizontal knockback decently well.

 

[NinjaLink]

I've been doin that for a while........

 

[Kataefi]

Yeah sure. I'll work on that now! Also here's the PM you sent me. Anyone here with good math(s) skills should definitely check this post out.

Credit goes to illinialex24 for finding out knockback rates of Utilt, USmash, Uair and Uthrow. Apparently Uair and Usmash have really good knockback rates and work especially well against the heavies.

50.366666666666666666666666666667 Conversion rate

U-tilt:
3022 to 6346

U-throw:
3022 to 4583

Uair:
2317 to 6850

U-smash:
2367 to 5893

These numbers are only approximate but are very close to the true values. Now, I will do the calculations and show you how to do them to get the key values.

Now, the initial values are:
U-tilt: 3022
Uthrow: 3022
Uair: 2317
U-smash 2367

Now the growth rates are the knockback at 100% - the knockback at 0% divided by 100.

So, for example, 6346-3022= 3324, and 3324/100 = 33.24, which is the growth rate.


The growth rates are:
U-tilt 33.24
U-throw: 15.61
Uair: 45.33
U-smash: 35.26

Now, we can calculate the base damages. This is different than the initial. The base damage allows you to find the rates for any character period.

Base damage = initial knockback - growth rate * move damage

So, for example, U-tilt does 11 damage, has a 33.24 growth rate, and a 3022 initial. So its base is:

3022 - 11*33.24 = 2656.36

That is the base damage for the move, tell me if my move damages are off.

The base damages for each move is:
U-tilt: 2656.36 (11%)
U-throw: 2834.68 (12%)
Uair: 1637.05 (15%)
U-smash: 1838.1 (15%*)

*May be off because it might be classified as multihit.

Now, read this thread and you can get the data for any character:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=210557

Read the knockback stuff.

Here are the max launcher speeds that illinialex worked with:

-Uthrow-

0% ---> Max Launcher Speed (MLS) = 60km/h

100% ---> MLS = 91km/h,

-Uair-

0% ---> MLS = 46km/h

100% --> MLS = 136km/h

-USmash-

0% ---> MLS = 47km/h

100% --> MLS = 117km/h

-Utilt-

0% ---> MLS = 60km/h

100% --> 126km/h

The reason this is interesting is because anyone who can do an ounce of math(s) can work out when all of Zelda's moves will kill at what percents on the entire cast, and also how large the knockback rate grows as percentage goes up for each move. This is why I need someone with really good mathematical skills to help me out!

For example... Uair is weaker than Utilt at early percents, but then it monstrously takes over at percents over 100% in terms of knockback.

And that USmash's power also grows insanely powerful when the opponent is at later percents.

 

[illinialex24]

Right and if you find out when the move kills horizontally near the edge of FD, you can make pretty good analysis of where that would kill using another move in the same spot.

 

[Kataefi]

Zelda's Knockback Power

Maximum Launcher Speed = MLS
Everything was tested on Mario at 0% and then at 100% as a comparison of the knockback.

(Semi-charged smashes is simply when you charge the smash very slightly. Zelda's charges make a gun noise; wait until this noise finishes and then attack)

DSmash

No Charge 0% ----> 32km/h
No Charge 100% --> 95 km/h

Semi-Charged 0% --> 34km/h
Semi-Charged 100% -> 105km/h

Fully-Charged 0% ---> 39km/h
Fully-Charged 100% --> 124km/h

FSmash

No Charge 0% ----> 49km/h
No Charge 100% ---> 119km/h

Semi-Charged 0% ---> 49km/h
Semi-Charged 100% --> 127km/h*

*Higher than Utilt knockback!

Fully-Charged 0% ---> 55km/h
Fully Charged 100% ---> 157km/h

USmash

No Charge 0% ---> 47km/h
No Charge 100% --> 117km/h

Semi-Charged 0% --> 50km/h
Semi-Charged 100% ---> 127km/h *

*Higher than Utilt knockback!

Fully-Charged 0% ---> 56km/h
Fully Charged 100% --> 146km/h

Ftilt

Normal-Downward Up Close 0% ---> 48km/h
Normal-Downward Up Close 100% ---> 103km/h

Upward Up Close 0% ---> 50km/h
Upward Up Close 100% ---> 109km/h

Normal-Downward-Upward Mid/Tipper Range 0% ---> 51km/h
Normal-Downward-Upward Mid/Tipper Range 100% --> 114km/h

Utilt

0% --> 60km/h
100% --> 126km/h

Bair

0% --> 57km/h
100% --> 158km/h

Fair

0% --> 53km/h
100% --> 153km/h

Uair
0% --> 46km/h
100% --> 136km/h

Small information about decay:

FSmash launcher speed at 100% after:

1 decay = 106km/h
2 decays = 99km/h
3 decays = 92km/h
4 decays = 87km/h

USmash launcher speed at 100% after:

1 decay = 107km/h
2 decays = 101km/h
3 decays = 96km/h
4 decays = 92km/h
5 decays = 88km/h

Most powerful realistic kill moves at 100% (because later percents matter most when killing)

*Very Early Kill Moves*
1. Bair
2. Fair
3. Uair

*Early Kill moves*
4. Semi Charge FSmash
5. Semi Charge USmash
6. Utilt

*Moderately Early Kill Moves*
7. FSmash
8. USmash

*Average Kill Moves*
9. Mid/Tipper Ftilt
10. Upward Ftilt
11. Normal-Downward Ftilt

(The spike isn't mentioned here as it's normally just an instant kill if it connects)

Hopefully Illinialex will like this data xD

EDIT::: because her FSmash and USmash are so easy to land... AND they actually have some very good knockback, should we save at least one for the kill?

 

[illinialex24]

Nice stuff, great stuff but what you should mention is that this at the worst possible scenario with decays because a 1 decay in position one does more than a 1 decay in position 2 which does more than...

I have no way of quantifying that yet and neither does Smash Lab. I'll convert that stuff over if you want.

 

[Kataefi]

Yep if you could that would be great!

 

[illinialex24]

Well I already gave you U-tilt, U-throw, U-smash and uair so I'll do all the rest in a little bit

 

[Bandit]

I would just like to say THANK YOU to everyone here that is working hard on this stuff. I love reading it, and it is awesome that Zelda is really moving forward with all this data.

 

[illinialex24]

I would just like to say THANK YOU to everyone here that is working hard on this stuff. I love reading it, and it is awesome that Zelda is really moving forward with all this data.

I've been here for 1 day but I'd like to say, your welcome. And I'll be testing U-throw to uair with hacks on Jigglypuff today soon.

 

[Kataefi]

Okay... so a fresh semi-charged FSmash and Usmash are still just as fast yet have superior knockback and will kill Mario at around the 100% mark.

This is with FinalD blast zones. Would it be very beneficial for us to save our USmash on non-aerial opponents and whip it out as a handy kill move? What do people think about this? Also... semi charged smashes deal more damage... semi charge Fsmash can do up to 20%, which is always very handy considering how safe it generally is.

 

[GodAtHand]

I have a question that has nothing to do with Zelda, but I want to know anyways. What does one frame equal in seconds? Or how many frames are in one second? Something that will help me understand this frame data better...

 

[illinialex24]

I have a question that has nothing to do with Zelda, but I want to know anyways. What does one frame equal in seconds? Or how many frames are in one second? Something that will help me understand this frame data better...

60 frames/ second.

Melee was 30 fps

 

[illinialex24]

Partial charge is too subjective because you can't frame perfect the multiplier constant.

Oh and don't ever compare horizontal to vertical KO ability, 5000 KO kills near the edge horizontal but kills on no stage vertically really.

D-smash:
Non-charged: 1612 to 4785, growth rate 31.73
Fully charged: 1964 to 6245, growth rate 42.81

F-smash:
Non-charged: 2468 to 5994, growth rate 35.26
Fully charged: 2770 to 7908, growth rate 51.38

U-smash:
Non-charged: 2367 to 5893, growth rate 35.26
Fully charged: 2821 to 7354, growth rate 45.33

F-Tilt: 2418 to 5188, growth rate 27.70

U-tilt: 3022 to 6346, growth rate 33.24

Bair: 2871 to 7958, growth rate 50.87

Fair: 2669 to 7706, growth rate 50.37

Some background:
A growth rate in the 30's is considered a fairly powerful move.
A growth rate in the 40's is an amazing KO move.
A growth rate in the 50's is phenomenal. Fair and bair are insane KO moves. Use it well.

I'll get angles on all her moves in a few days.

Sorry for double post.

 

[Kataefi]

So a semi-charged smash attack would be roughly in between the non-charged and fully-charged growth rates. That would put them in the 40s, making them 'amazing' kill moves ^^

This would imply than Fsmash and Usmash when even remotely charged are far far superior to just using them as they are. It will add only a few extra frames on, but considering how generally safe FSmash is with her backwards spacing, and USmash's very good speed, it would be beneficial for us to start semi-charging in good situations.

Thanks so much for all this. I'll update the OP tomorrow, with all this info because it's getting very late here.

 

[illinialex24]

Ok cool and remember that the charge depends on how long you charge it. The longer it is charged the stronger it. She has relatively safe charged moves if she's smart so thats pretty awesome.

 

[Kataefi]

Just quickly though, would semi-charged smashes affect the strength of shield pushback at all? That would make smashes like USmash even safer on block.

 

[illinialex24]

Just quickly though, would semi-charged smashes affect the strength of shield pushback at all? That would make smashes like USmash even safer on block.

I personally have no idea. I wish I knew. I can test this.

EDIT:
And I tested the U-throw to uair thing. Past like 5%, you need to double jump to hit Jigglypuff. She can avoid it with an air dodge and a DI as long as she is smart at any percent. Not that hard to buffer an airdodge with a DI.

 

[Kataefi]

Cool! If the opponent airdodges, she can bait that and then punish after by simply delaying the uair.

I actually believe the only way people could escape this is if they double jump. This wouldn't work quite as well on characters like jiggs with multiple jumps, but getting an opponent to lose their double jump leaves them open to usmash juggling amongst other things.

Taking someone like peach for example - she has the worst airdodge, the shortest double jump, a slower air speed than Zelda, and a dair that cannot beat out uair. Uthrow > Uair would be most effective on her.

 

[NinjaLink]

I thought i mentioned baiting ppl into an uair a long time ago T_T

oh well :-(

 

[GodAtHand]

Heres something that I would like to understand better.

I sadly don't have a video, but one time fighting a Peach. The Peach pulled a bomb omb and in my head the best idea was to run really close to her so she would get hit by the explosion along with me since I was in the lead.

While I ran toward her and she through the bomb, so I dash attacked to try and catch it. Somehow the dash attack either reflected it back toward her, or maybe it just made it blow up cuz of sparkles. But either way I didn't get hit by the explosion and she did. Anyone know why this happend. Is it just the range of Zelda's dash attack extending slightly past her hitbox? Or does it have some sort of odd reflect ability?

 

[SinkingHigher]

I've heard her Dash attack has a strange hitbox. Perhaps you timed it just right so it hit the edge before Zelda was in range.

If it wasn't that, it could only have been two other things as far as I know...

1. You managed to powersheild just in time (although im sure you'd remember this.)
2. You had that reflector badge on (although I'm sure you'd remember turning on items.)

Ergo, crazy hitbox.

Oh wait... Was the bob-omb fresh or had it started flashing? That would explain things perfectly if it was about to explode.

 

[Bandit]

I know the very extent of the hit box hits straight out and is pretty rangey. I am unaware of any reflecting ability of the move though.