Evo 2013 Ruleset

[luzbwl]

#freeiceclimbers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbLZq7AUII

That's the attitude! #freeiceclimbers

while we are at it, you might consider taking some tips from taj http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2Qy4tOjeTc jk

 

[UltiMario]

Yeah, what people are sayin' here.

A smaller timer actually will make more games go longer because timing out becomes a more viable strategy. The timer is very long for the exact reason of making it difficult to time out without letting the matches go for insanely long as well.

For every match you save 2 minutes on from a 6 minute clock, 5 more will probably be 2 minutes longer because people go for the timeout because it's a more viable option. On top of that, people might not go if rules are heavily modified.

The whole basis of "8 minutes is too long" anyways comes from the assumption that the timer we use is actually appropriate for most matches- when in fact it's there really only for floaty character matches. Most games are over in less time than a SFIV match, so it's not really fair to strangle Melee's ruleset over time constraints when we might not even be the slowest game there.

It just comes down to use the current rules, and the stuff that really needs to be looked at the most heavily is DSR and how stage bans should work. Everything else is absolutely fine. If there's no stuff like people doing 3 minutes warm-ups every game (coughM2Kcough) then Melee shouldn't be running overtime anyways assuming there's enough setups (which is true for any game).

 

[Signia]

6 minutes seems like a change in the right direction, but since it's still untested and this tournament is an important one, we should keep with the status quo.

To much rabble in this thread talking about wild changes to ruleset. The only people who should be talking here are experienced TOs and community leaders. This isn't a discussion about changes to the official ruleset, it's a discussion about which of our slightly varying standards of rulesets should be used for EVO.

It's ok that I'm posting here because I'm essentially telling you all to stfu and let the experts sort this out.

 

[AlphaZealot]

I think people are focusing a bit to much on the philosophy of changing stock and time and not focusing enough on the simple reality of completing a tournament within a finite period of time.

The question really is: how close can Melee get to tournament standards for stock time.

The answer is probably figuring out number of setups, number of entrants, and estimated time to complete the tournament.

 

[Hax]

get rid of Pokemon Stadium, and have bans in 3/5

 

[007-jake]

Why change anything?! We finally have a standard ruleset that works. Now that Melee has made it into EVO, this is definitely not the time to start changing what everyone is used to and creating salty matches and a lot of complaints. Why try to fix something that isnt broke?

 

[Acryte]

It may be counter-intuitive but changing the timer to 6 minutes will increase tourney length, not to mention the final stocks in a tournament won't consist of people fighting it out, but possibly running away which is lame for building hype and super lame for spectators.

 

[Mew2King]

Apex ruleset is the best by far, copy paste it

 

[Deleted member]

apex rule set, copy and paste it

 

[Navn]

I think everyone here brings up valid points.

Reducing the amount of stocks will create different and potentially less exciting matches, while reducing the timer will damage floatie vs floatie matchups, and potentially make stalling a much more common and valid strategy. Neither scenario is really optimal, but we gotta aknowledge MrWizards wish for a faster tournament.

My idea would be to run shorter matches (3stocks 5/6 minutes) for the first couple of rounds, then going into 4stocks 8 minutes for the ro32 or ro64. That way, you save a large amount of time during the time of largest match quantity and lowest match quality, while preserving the "classic" way of playing Melee during the climax of the tournament.

 

[Beat!]

get rid of Pokemon Stadium, and have bans in 3/5

Count me in.

 

[Vkrm]

As long we get in gear and play our matches when they're called we could just use apex rules. Smashers are hands down the worst at showing up for matches on time.

 

[Bones0]

Bones, interesting concept (I like thinking up alternate rulesets myself) but I think the stage selection section just adds more complexity than the players will want to deal with. People will take a situation that follows KISS with a few flaws over a better if more complex system.



But then it allows you to cp the neutral in game 3. If that's not a problem I'm all for it. Maybe redefine the rule as "you can't pick the last stage you won on that wasn't an opponent's counterpick". I think that covers everything.

Idk why you consider it more complex. Not banning the same stage twice is way easier to keep track of compared to remembering when you won last and which stage it was. As far as "don't pick your last counterpick you won on" goes, it makes it so people can switch to a secondary and get two extremely good counterpicks. So let's say I am Puff and I really like DL, and I am playing a spacie. I can use Puff+DL for my first counterpick, and then I can use Marth+FD for my second counterpick. Again, this is why I stress the importance of leaving bans in control of the players and not in who won previous matches.

 

[King Funk]

Stadium is a pretty awful stage.

And whoever still defends 6 minutes, pls, stahp. You just don't get it at all.

 

[batistabus]

My idea would be to run shorter matches (3stocks 5/6 minutes) for the first couple of rounds, then going into 4stocks 8 minutes for the ro32 or ro64. That way, you save a large amount of time during the time of largest match quantity and lowest match quality, while preserving the "classic" way of playing Melee during the climax of the tournament.

I like this idea.

Also, I think Pokemon Stadium shouldn't be included. Camping during transformations isn't gonna look great on stream.

Wobbling should be allowed, if for no other reason than Mr. Wizard seems to want it so much.

 

[Bones0]

Why does everyone want to lower the stock count? He said 4 stocks, 6 minutes would work fine. I think 4 stocks, 8 minutes would also work fine, and maybe even better. There's no need to lower the stock count, especially since doing so drastically changes the entire dynamic of the game that's been established since 2002.

 

[Vain]

4 stocks
6 minutes- too little
8 minutes- too much
7 minutes= score!?!!? Basically the choices are leaving it at 8 minutes or lowering 1 minute down. 6 isn't a choice.

 

[Blistering Speed]

apex rule set, copy and paste it

Yeah.

Being at EVO does not inherently necessitate new ruleset initiatives.

 

[Fox Hater]

@King Funk
that's mostly conjecture. how many tournaments have you ran with a 6 minute timer? i'm willing to guess 0. I also completely disagree that players are encouraged to run the timer when they notice the game reaches 1 minute left; I find that the games that timeouts occur usually begin with the idea of time out as a win condition. Regardless, if we see more time outs, is that a problem? I don't think it is. Time outs as a win condition as it is is very, very difficult, and with a 6 minute timer would change to very difficult. Bad feels aside, if we want to improve our tournament experiences I don't think "Timeouts occur 5% more often" or whatever is that big of a sacrifice to make especially if the time it takes for a timeout to occur goes down by 25%.

I agree with you, people complain about things that has not been tested before. Back in 07 we used to play 4 stocks and 6 minutes in Puerto Rico. But here is the question, have any of you tried 3 stocks 5 mins? to say it is terrible?

And the logic that matches will timeout because its a 6 min match its wrong. Like Strong Bad said before games that timeouts occur usually begin with the idea of time out as a win condition take for example apex HBOX vs ARMADA. Also how many timeouts do you see occurring in these major tournaments.?

@
3 stocks is terrible in melee. and where are you hearing that's what japanese players do?.

Have you ever tried to run a tournament with 3 stocks 5 minutes to say thats a horrible idea??

I bet that back in 04 people were doing riots when a few began saying that 5 stocks was too much and we needed to lower to 4 stocks, and hey we survived.

@ Mr Wizard take a random sample of all the top 8 from the last majors from the last two years and verify which of those matches take more than 4 to 5 minutes, each match. You will be surprised. ALMOST NONE except maybe Jiggs vs Jiggs and peach WHATEVER.. Hence lowering timer to 6 minutes wont do anything except for the matchup i just mentioned.

Lowering to 3 stocks 5 minutes would be ideal for evo tournaments ( Ive attended a few Evo and I know the drill ) And keeping the rest of the Apex tournament rule set as it is. Since the smash community is really divided when it comes to rule set And I dont think you will get a consensus now.

Also there are 3 evo road tournaments left, why dont you use them to test this 3 stock 5 minutes rule and if it works out GREAT!



Also how is this HYPE at ALL????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xsbLZq7AUII

 

[King Funk]

Let's just keep 4 stocks // 8 minutes.

Moving on.

 

[Strong Badam]

and #freeiceclimbers

 

[KishPrime]

Teams only, no singles.

 

[Revven]

Let's just keep 4 stocks // 8 minutes.

Moving on.

Moving onto #freeiceclimbers

 

[Osennecho]

#freeiceclimbers

 

[BetaBahamut]

I agree with the apex ruleset for everything besides modified DSR. I dont understand why thats considered better then Standard.

 

[luzbwl]

#freeiceclimbers

 

[rjgbadger]

its really unfortunate but EVO will without a doubt need a button checking clause. recently it can get out of hand, with top players warming up before EVERY set they play. most of the time i like watching the button checks, but watching the match is objectively better

 

[MrWizard]

What is the biggest smash tournament that was run on 4 stock 8 minutes, and how long did it take to complete?

Remember Evo is not only a smash tournament, but we have to run 7 other games as well.

If Evo gets 500-600 for smash, the smash portion of the tournament needs to finish in ONE day, not two.

 

[clowsui]

MrWizard do you mean with or without stream considerations? Also with or without round robin pools? We have a fairly wide range of answers we can give you lol

 

[MrWizard]

Evo is double elimination so no need for round robin pools.

 

[xianglongfa]

How will seeding be done for brackets then?

 

[clowsui]

Randomly or w Evo seeding pts. All DE brackets are inaccurate to top8 anyways it's just with round robin seeding methods you get a little more accuracy. With evo theres too many time constraintsto worry about marginal accuracy. Besides The philosophy of Evo is that you come to compete. Yeah bracket luck can screw you over but that's what happens sometimes

 

[Kite91]

when he says it has to be done on one day will there be top 16 or 8 shown on day 3 on live stream?

 

[Engo]

One day? Damn.. that will basically mean the tournament will be the one and only thing happening the whole day. Pretty much no friendlies whatsoever. Not a lot of incentive for low level players not interested in the other games to travel from far away to go to this.

 

[LLDL]

I think you're missing the point of EVO. When it's at this level, it becomes about the tournament event. It's more for the experience. I'm pretty low level and I'm going, even knowing that I won't get much friendlies in. Plus there are 3 hotel nights to friendly it up all you want.

 

[Excel_Zero]

Apex rules should be used. EVO is definitely not the place to try out new rulesets. Stick to what is working.

 

[Xzax Kasrani]

^ yeah, apex 2013 ruleset should be unchanged

 

[Shawn101589]

Guys, we knew getting into this that this would not be run like any other smash tournament, and that sacrafices would have to be made. If you want to play friendlies, bring gamecubes to the free play area and play them there.

He is being extremely lenient in letting us keep 4 stock, 6 minutes. While many may say this is not the tournament where rule changes should be made, it is far more important that we tailor our to accommodate the TO, without whom we wouldn't even have had this oppurtunity. If people are worried about timing out, we should go down to 3 stocks.


In fact, I think a poll wouldn't be a bad idea, between 3 stocks/5minutes, and 4 stocks/6minutes.


Mr Wizard, I know that many of the upcoming Road to Evo tournaments don't plan on having Melee as one of the games due to the stipulations of lack of Gamecubes / crts etc. Would it be possible to coordinate with some of the TOs to have our own Evo seeding tournaments?

 

[WindMajor]

#freeiceclimbers

 

[Gea]

He is being extremely lenient in letting us keep 4 stock, 6 minutes. While many may say this is not the tournament where rule changes should be made, it is far more important that we tailor our to accommodate the TO, without whom we wouldn't even have had this oppurtunity. If people are worried about timing out, we should go down to 3 stocks.

How many matches go to time? This is exactly why I was asking for the people who already have this kind of data (don't Juggleguy/ Sheridan?) to offer it up. It's really, really rare for time-outs to occur. The entire discussion is whether in a minority of matches, lowering the timer would increase tournament length overall by encouraging timeouts. This is literally a non-issue for the majority of matches. Other ruleset changes would impact everyone in every match. Didn't someone say something like 1% of matches go to time?

And time estimates REALLY depend on the number of setups. Asking for a magical number with no details on that is a hard one to give. Assuming setups are no issue whatsoever bracket pools could be done in what, two hours if that then you just have a DE bracket. But there aren't going to be 300 setups so this sort of thing needs to be taken into consideration. I'm pretty sure setups will be the limiting factor on how fast pools run, not a 2 minute difference in timer when a minority of matches even reach that threshold to begin with.