Evo 2013 Ruleset

[Shawn101589]

I don't disagree that timing out isn't an issue, my point was that if people honestly think that 6 minutes isn't enough for 4 stocks, then 3 stocks is also an option. But you are right, having hard data is the better option. I was simply saying the refusing to change the time or stock at all simply because it's how we've always done it isn't something we shouldn't be stubborn about if it makes it more likely that we run the tournament on time.

 

[KayB]

One day? Damn.. that will basically mean the tournament will be the one and only thing happening the whole day. Pretty much no friendlies whatsoever. Not a lot of incentive for low level players not interested in the other games to travel from far away to go to this.

Smash's inclusion is a privilege, we don't need to argue for time and room that we don't need.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

I think you're missing the point of EVO. When it's at this level, it becomes about the tournament event. It's more for the experience. I'm pretty low level and I'm going, even knowing that I won't get much friendlies in. Plus there are 3 hotel nights to friendly it up all you want.

ding ding ding

Smooth Criminal

 

[Bones0]

I don't disagree that timing out isn't an issue, my point was that if people honestly think that 6 minutes isn't enough for 4 stocks, then 3 stocks is also an option. But you are right, having hard data is the better option. I was simply saying the refusing to change the time or stock at all simply because it's how we've always done it isn't something we shouldn't be stubborn about if it makes it more likely that we run the tournament on time.

No, 3 stocks is NOT an option. It changes way too much about the game and what people are used to.

 

[Shawn101589]

No, 3 stocks is NOT an option. It changes way too much about the game and what people are used to.

So are you saying if it boiled down to our choices being play with 3 stocks or don't go to Evo, we should not go to Evo?

If Mr Wizard wants 3 stocks, then we'll play with 3 stocks. If we need to have other tournaments run the "Evo ruleset", then we'll do that so people can "get used to it". And I'm not even saying that is what we SHOULD do. I'm saying that if it best for the tournament, we shouldn't be stubborn about it.

Beggers can't be choosers.

(I know we didn't beg for the spot, but it is not our tournament, it is Mr Wizard's tournament.)

 

[GHNeko]

Apex Ruleset

#freeiceclimbers

4 stock / 7 mins.

 

[Kite91]

i think 4 stocks 6 mins is enough. Most matches go for 4 and change.... unless its puff vs puff or hbox vs armada

also we have some time to test it out.
I advise TOs to start testing 4stock/6min just to get an idea of how itll work

 

[BetaBahamut]

If Mr Wizard wants 3 stocks, then we'll play with 3 stocks.

If Mr Wizard said 1 stock would you feel the same way? Its important to make sure we run within time limit yes, but at the same time the whole point of this is to show everybody OUR game and we keep making significant changes we are no longer showing our game. Also it would be a terrible Idea to potentially ruin many tournaments just so we can prepare for a weird ruleset.


just for the record Im fine with 3 stocks and we do need to accommodate and if Mr Wizard did say 1 stock we would just have to deal with it.

 

[GHNeko]

Why is no one considering 7 mins outside the master race?

 

[Shawn101589]

If Mr Wizard said 1 stock would you feel the same way? Its important to make sure we run within time limit yes, but at the same time the whole point of this is to show everybody OUR game and we keep making significant changes we are no longer showing our game. Also it would be a terrible Idea to potentially ruin many tournaments just so we can prepare for a weird ruleset.


just for the record Im fine with 3 stocks and we do need to accommodate and if Mr Wizard did say 1 stock we would just have to deal with it.

I agree with you completely, my point was that Smashers need to be willing to reach a compromise.

Edit: I'd also be fine with 7 minutes.

 

[Bones0]

So are you saying if it boiled down to our choices being play with 3 stocks or don't go to Evo, we should not go to Evo?

If Mr Wizard wants 3 stocks, then we'll play with 3 stocks. If we need to have other tournaments run the "Evo ruleset", then we'll do that so people can "get used to it". And I'm not even saying that is what we SHOULD do. I'm saying that if it best for the tournament, we shouldn't be stubborn about it.

Beggers can't be choosers.

(I know we didn't beg for the spot, but it is not our tournament, it is Mr Wizard's tournament.)

HE ALREADY AGREED THAT 4 STOCKS 6 MINUTES WOULD BE FINE.

Why would we willingly lower the stock count when it isn't necessary? It's not about our community being stubborn or picky. We just want a ruleset that allows us to play the game properly. If you ****ed with the timers of any other game, they'd be in an uproar because it's the equivalent of changing stocks in Melee.

 

[Shawn101589]

HE ALREADY AGREED THAT 4 STOCKS 6 MINUTES WOULD BE FINE.

Why would we willingly lower the stock count when it isn't necessary? It's not about our community being stubborn or picky. We just want a ruleset that allows us to play the game properly. If you ****ed with the timers of any other game, they'd be in an uproar because it's the equivalent of changing stocks in Melee.

Holy **** dude. Relax.


I was talking to the people in the thread who were worried that 4/6 wouldn't be enough time or would promote timeouts. "It would change to much" is NOT a valid argument one way or the other. He is running a business. If he said "The only option is 3 stocks", we would take it and shut up, or otherwise prove that we are to stubborn to reach a compromise was my only point. Taking it off the table for discussion because you think it changes to much is stupid when this thread is about ruleset discussion.

And also, some people would argue that 3 stocks with 6 minutes would be better since it would better emulate 1 stock per 2 minutes. And some people could argue that keeping the same amount of stock with less time will change how people play the matchups, which is DEFINITELY something worthy of discussion.

 

[Bones0]

Yeah, if he said 3 stocks was the only option we would take it, but it isn't the only option. Which is why it shouldn't even be an option at all because it'd play horribly.

 

[Shawn101589]

And some people think that 4 stock 6 minutes would play horribly. The have provided as much evidence as you have.

 

[MK26]

Can't we just agree to

Apex Ruleset
4 stock 7 minutes (compromise, and time jumps should only be in 1 minute increments)
Regular DSR (as this thread has taught me it's better than Modified and I'm not expecting other options to be considered)
Wobbling allowed (for Mr Wizard's sake, and there's already a 300% stalling rule)

 

[Bones0]

And some people think that 4 stock 6 minutes would play horribly. The have provided as much evidence as you have.

I was one of, if not the first, person to post my concerns about a 6 minute timer. If I had thought people would take that criticism and try to solve it by reducing a stock, I probably would have kept it to myself.

 

[Gea]

I think people are focusing a bit to much on the philosophy of changing stock and time and not focusing enough on the simple reality of completing a tournament within a finite period of time.

The question really is: how close can Melee get to tournament standards for stock time.

The answer is probably figuring out number of setups, number of entrants, and estimated time to complete the tournament.

Reminding everyone than our new overlord knows what's up

 

[Bones0]

It helps that our new overlord is a ridiculously experienced TO himself. lol

 

[Revven]

What does our new overlord () think the best course of action for the rule set is anyway? Is it in line with what everyone else has been saying, copy/pasta Apex Rule set with wobbling as legal and modified DSR? Or...?

 

[KayB]

4 stocks and 6 minutes is the limit for me personally. Anything lower and the metagame changes dramatically imo. 3 stocks is too low; if you have one stock and your opponent has two, the advantage shifts towards the two-stock player dramatically. Any lower than six minutes would probably encourage camping and taking out the timer. Instead of shortening the tournament, it would lengthen it. By making the games longer, you're actually shortening it. These are just some of the many affects.

Changing the timer is a gamble; it MAY encourage camping and time-outs. Then again it may not. But any changes made to the stocks WILL affect the game immensely, and that's something to keep in mind.

And the reason why Mr. Wizard may not be okay with the Apex ruleset is because Apex was more than one-day tournament.

 

[batistabus]

Changing the time will not speed up anything. It's been said dozens of times, but it'll only increase the viability of timing-out. Would 7 minutes make any significant difference for the overall length of the event? I don't think so. The time problem, ironically, doesn't have to do with the time of the match. It's about stocks. I say make pools 3 stocks 6 minutes. It won't have a significant impact on results, it will make things go by faster, and the "better" matches will still be 4s8m.

 

[Osennecho]

Changing the time will not speed up anything. It's been said dozens of times, but it'll only increase the viability of timing-out. Would 7 minutes make any significant difference for the overall length of the event? I don't think so. The time problem, ironically, doesn't have to do with the time of the match. It's about stocks. I say make pools 3 stocks 6 minutes. It won't have a significant impact on results, it will make things go by faster, and the "better" matches will still be 4s8m.

It's double elimination @ EVO. There will be no pools. To fit pools and bracket in one day you'd probs have to do something outrageous like 2 stock pools and 3 stock regular matches 5 minute limit.

 

[kupo15]

As soon as I read the suggestion of lowering the time to make the tournament run faster, I immediately felt like it was the wrong idea for the reason several other people mentioned about "lower timer = more incentive to time out matches"

I say Apex ruleset...its been the standard and it works very well.

Side note, no one has yet to answer Mr. Wizard's question about how long the biggest tournament lasted with the Apex 4 stock 8 min timer to help prove/disprove this timer/stalling theory

 

[batistabus]

It's double elimination @ EVO. There will be no pools. To fit pools and bracket in one day you'd probs have to do something outrageous like 2 stock pools and 3 stock regular matches 5 minute limit.

Oh, right. I misunderstood what was being said. So I assume the Road to Evo events determine seeds?

Also, how about going 3s6m up to a certain round, and then switching over (like Navn said)?

 

[MK26]

Ok, let's forget about what's right for the game and think of this in pure numbers.

[collapse="Math"]In a 16-man tournament, to get down to the final 8 you need:

• 1 initial round of 8 matches
• 1 round of 4 winners' matches
• 2 rounds of 4 losers' matches

We don't care about the winners' matches since they'll happen concurrently to the losers' rounds, so assuming you have 8 setups, you get to final 8 in 3 rounds of matches.

In a 32-man tournament, to get to final 8 you need:

• 1 initial round of 16 matches
• 1 round of 8 winners' matches
• 1 round of 4 winners' matches
• 2 rounds of 8 losers' matches
• 2 rounds of 4 losers' matches

Again, we don't care about winners' since they won't interrupt losers', so as long as you have 16 setups you're clear to finish in 5 rounds of matches.[/collapse]tl;dr: starting from 16 players, 8 setups and 3 rounds, to get to to top 8 you need to double setups and add 2 rounds each time you double the number of entrants.

Finally, top 8 (that is, 4 people remaining in winners' and 4 in losers') requires:

[collapse="Math 2"]

• winners' semis (2 matches)
• winners' finals
• losers' top 8 (2 matches)
• losers' top 6 (2 matches)
• losers' semis
• losers' finals
• grand finals (up to 2 matches)

[/collapse]tl;dr 2: If the entirety of top 8 is streamed, that's 9 rounds of matches plus Grand Finals.

Last year, Evo had 6 hours of stream time for each game's quarters' and semis followed by 1.5 hours for finals on Sunday, so I'm not worried about time constraints there. (If you want to know how many entrants each game had, someone posted that here)


What does this all mean for EVO?

Ok, let's assume best case scenario time-wise: Melee is capped at 512 entrants (or doesn't reach 512 in the first place) and Mr. Wizard has managed to procure 256 GCs/Wiis and CRTs. There is the initial round of 256 matches followed by 12 rounds of losers' before we get to the top 8. Giving everybody leeway and assuming each round of bo3 games would take 1/2 an hour, that's 6.5 hours before we get to top 8.

Half that many setups and the initial round needs to be split in 2 and Winners' 1 has to happen after Losers' 1. Thus, 2 rounds' worth of time is added and total time increases to 7.5 hours.

Half again (64 setups) and Round 1 is split in 4, all of Losers' 1, Winners' 1, and Losers' 2 are split in 2, and Winners' 2 can't happen at the same time as Losers' 3. 13 rounds has now ballooned to 20, and we now need 10 hours to get to top 8.


Super tl;dr: Before we can say how long the tournament can take, we need to know how many setups we have. Anything less than 1/4 the amount of players, and tournament length increases exponentially.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Is a cap on entries very possible in that scenario, then? In the most extreme example, that is.

Smooth Criminal

 

[michael_li]

ban puff

yuaa

 

[CountOlaf]

Wobbling should be legal. One of the insults against smash is the number of things we ban in competition (items, stages) to give an equal playing field to both players. By banning wobbling at an FGC event, we not only remove a tactic for an unpopular character, but we also play into a smash stereotype. I think it would be interesting for non-smashers to see the ice climbers used to their full potential, in which wobbling will help them.

 

[MK26]

Is a cap on entries very possible in that scenario, then? In the most extreme example, that is.

Smooth Criminal

Depending on the number of Gamecubes/Wiis and CRTs they can find, I'd say so. If the wizard can only guarantee 128 setups, for time constraint purposes I think they'd have to limit us to 512 entrants before the tournament either goes prohibitively long or we have to make concessions we don't want to make (be honest, everyone who actually wants to play 3 stock 5 minute matches raise your hand).

I do believe that for the sake of shaving up to 3 minutes off of timeout matches, 4 stock 7 minutes is a fair compromise. It won't have much of an effect on the majority of matches, but it ensures that the timeout games don't unduly hold up the tournament.

 

[Strong Badam]

it'd probably be fine to do 3 stock for the first round or two of the bracket (25-50% of players eliminated) then switch to 4-stock.

 

[Gea]

It's double elimination @ EVO. There will be no pools. To fit pools and bracket in one day you'd probs have to do something outrageous like 2 stock pools and 3 stock regular matches 5 minute limit.

You mean no round robin pools. It's way more logistically sound to do bracket pools than try to coordinate 600~ people in a single massive bracket rather than people coming in waves and then blitzing through a 128 man bracket. I'm sure someone else can attest to this.

 

[Bones0]

I think we should just seed based on reputation, and we can just eliminate the bottom half of the entrants on seeding alone.

 

[Scamp]

Okay you guys are being a little weird. I do not know if EVO will be run the same way this year, but I'll explain how things worked the last two years running for every game.

No matter how many people enter the tourney, everyone was divided into 16-man pools. Each pool is like a separate double-elimination tourney. One person advances out of losers and one out of winners. Each pool is run with 2 stations each.

Then, the semi-finals are played at a set time (usually directly after the last round of pools) which reduces the number of players to 8. 4 in winners and 4 in losers. This part is less important for time concerns IMO.

So, basically, the main question is how long is an average match, and how long do you think it'd take for a 16-man double-elimination tourney to finish with 2 stations?


The second point I'd like to address is the notion that tournies would take longer with a 6-minute timer rather than an 8-minute timer. It really sounds to me like people are playing theory fighter and don't have any actual proof, they just feel like it's right and go with it. I would like to see tournaments or gatherings actually testing this out and also, if possible, some video proof of matches that were affected by the time.

The thing is that anyone who would suddenly decide to start stalling the match out would only do so when there's about a minute or less left to go in the match. If that's the case then there isn't going to be a significant increase in the time of the match. For someone to decide that stalling with two minutes left to go to be a viable strategy he'd have to figure that stalling is better than whatever he's been doing otherwise that's gotten him the lead up to that point. I really don't see that happening except in the rarest of circumstances.

I really hope my second point doesn't derail the thread. I realize that I am inviting a theory fighter argument to arise, and I really don't want that to happen. I would appreciate more feedback on this point if there is some kind of evidence that a 6-minute timer would significantly increase the time it takes to run a tourney. Certainly there must be tourney matches with an 8-minute timer that people decided to stall out when close to the end, that would be good evidence. Also people testing the 6-minute timer and giving firsthand accounts or videos would be nice too.

Please don't just quote me and just try to refute me with theory fighter. I fear this will happen and I realize I didn't frame my argument the best way to prevent this from happening, but I've seen this point a lot and I want to see if it's actually valid or just theory.

 

[EthereaL]

With enough setups, we're fine. Until we have that logistic, it's pointless to theorycraft.

#sheeple

 

[Kewkky]

I think wobbling is hilarious to watch when the crowd pitches in with chants or singing or screaming or w/e. It's also not overpowered, it's simply an infinite that's not exactly easy to get going, like many other infinites in different games. Considering high level play (not just top level!) requires great spacing, we won't be seeing multiple ICs wobble their way into the finals. If they do, then that speaks volumes about Melee, and we all know melee isn't the type of game to kill interest due to one single character's infinite. It should be legal.

Also, I'd be okay with 4 stocks 6 mins. If we had no choice but 3 stocks 6 mins, I'd budge, but I wouldn't exactly be comfortable with it.

 

[King Funk]

Okay you guys are being a little weird. I do not know if EVO will be run the same way this year, but I'll explain how things worked the last two years running for every game.

No matter how many people enter the tourney, everyone was divided into 16-man pools. Each pool is like a separate double-elimination tourney. One person advances out of losers and one out of winners. Each pool is run with 2 stations each.

Then, the semi-finals are played at a set time (usually directly after the last round of pools) which reduces the number of players to 8. 4 in winners and 4 in losers. This part is less important for time concerns IMO.

So, basically, the main question is how long is an average match, and how long do you think it'd take for a 16-man double-elimination tourney to finish with 2 stations?


The second point I'd like to address is the notion that tournies would take longer with a 6-minute timer rather than an 8-minute timer. It really sounds to me like people are playing theory fighter and don't have any actual proof, they just feel like it's right and go with it. I would like to see tournaments or gatherings actually testing this out and also, if possible, some video proof of matches that were affected by the time.

The thing is that anyone who would suddenly decide to start stalling the match out would only do so when there's about a minute or less left to go in the match. If that's the case then there isn't going to be a significant increase in the time of the match. For someone to decide that stalling with two minutes left to go to be a viable strategy he'd have to figure that stalling is better than whatever he's been doing otherwise that's gotten him the lead up to that point. I really don't see that happening except in the rarest of circumstances.

I really hope my second point doesn't derail the thread. I realize that I am inviting a theory fighter argument to arise, and I really don't want that to happen. I would appreciate more feedback on this point if there is some kind of evidence that a 6-minute timer would significantly increase the time it takes to run a tourney. Certainly there must be tourney matches with an 8-minute timer that people decided to stall out when close to the end, that would be good evidence. Also people testing the 6-minute timer and giving firsthand accounts or videos would be nice too.

Please don't just quote me and just try to refute me with theory fighter. I fear this will happen and I realize I didn't frame my argument the best way to prevent this from happening, but I've seen this point a lot and I want to see if it's actually valid or just theory.

My assumptions are not necessarily that 6 minutes will make things significantly worse (tournament running slower). I am just questioning 6 minutes making things significantly better (tournament running faster).

But I will admit that we could probably test it out before EVO.

In my opinion though 8 minutes has never been a problem and there is no reason to fix something that isn't broken.

 

[Fox Hater]

No, 3 stocks is NOT an option. It changes way too much about the game and what people are used to.

LOL! "It changes way too much about the game " Best argument ever *sarcastic face*

How does playing 3 stocks changes the game... I would agree two stocks because maybe its not enough time for the opponment to adjust. But 3 stocks is fine. In PR we play 3 stocks when there are many waiting to play and its FINE. Japanese players play like that also

I think 3 stocks- 5 or 6 mins is just great, Im not saying to change the rules for future melee tournaments but for evo events since the time constraint.

People are beggining to accept this. I went to evo 2k7 to participate in smash and had a blast. People should be getting hype not hating. And if a minor change to the rules ( stocks) should be made I dont see the issue

 

[Beat!]

Best argument ever *sarcastic face*

The irony.

 

[clowsui]

Been posting this in various threads:

Hey guys,

I know I hold no clout in the Melee community and nobody that would come to this tournament but like (insert acquaintance/friend who is attending the tournament) would know me, but if any of you have been keeping up w the EVO ruleset thread at all, there's a big discussion about alternative time settings, as the 8 minute limit is too much for MrWizard. We can debate theoryfighter all we want and we can even try to use predictive models based on existing matches, but nothing beats hard data. Participants, you guys should respond now and see whether or not you're game for it. If they are, (threadmaker)/other TOs, you guys should consider running 3 stock/6 min pools at this event or even 4 stock/7 min if you don't wanna go that far and see how people feel about it + if the length of matches significantly changes =)

I'll be watching this thread for responses.

I'm doing my part to actually help MrWizard. You guys should do the same by encouraging your own TOs to create data in these next 2-3 weeks.

also felix re add me to marth chat idk how i left

 

[ShadoWPassoS]

4 stocks, 6 mins is fine.

Melee is a fast game, very few matches reach 5 min, so why bother for the minority ?

8 mins is the safest zone, but if will be a problem to EVO, we have to accept.