Evo 2013 Ruleset

[Codi]

Honestly, I don't agree with wobbling but I do believe it should be in EVO. However, I think there should be a different limit to it. 350% to me is ridiculous and should be considered stalling. Though 350% is usually never a thing you see because of wobbling it still gives them the opportunity to do it. Why not limit it to 100% or 150%?

 

[Zone]

Honestly, I don't agree with wobbling but I do believe it should be in EVO. However, I think there should be a different limit to it. 350% to me is ridiculous and should be considered stalling. Though 350% is usually never a thing you see because of wobbling it still gives them the opportunity to do it. Why not limit it to 100% or 150%?

I think because depending on the stage, 100% isn't guaranteed, and character dependant. You might kill zelda off the top early, but not someone heavy like Captain Falcon.


And you have leeway to hold someone until an obstacle is out of your way, and you guarantee the kill you deserve by landing that hard to land grab.

when your opponent spends his ENTIRE GAME around not getting grabbed.

you grabbing him is gonna be even harder now, and lets be serious here, Iceclimbers slide around on the ground like it's a glacier when they get hit on their shield, and you can easily push them out of shield grab range.



Most ice-climbers don't push to the limit of 350%, they kill you when they know it'll kill you. I think you're overestimating how long it takes to reach 350%. (which they won't wait to most of the time)

It's just leeway % so you don't get DQ'd for accidently killing at 101% when the rule is 100%

 

[Fox Hater]

3 stocks 5 mins

It seems great Fast and appropiate for a high scale event like evo!!
Try it it seems others are trying it too

Also there are plenty of reasons to ban wobble, my point is that iCs can win a bad MU without wobbling

 

[Zone]

3 stocks 5 mins

It seems great Fast and appropiate for a high scale event like evo!!
Try it it seems others are trying it too

Also there are plenty of reasons to ban wobble, my point is that iCs can win a bad MU without wobbling

wobbling has been discussed forever...

But that's terrible logic man lol.


My point is that Fox can win a bad MU w/o up-air.


how is that grounds for banning something?

 

[Revven]

3 stocks 5 minutes would be way too short. Not enough time would be given for MUs like Marth vs Sheik or floatier characters, imo.

 

[michael_li]

Mr wizard shouls just decide. LOL

 

[Nintendude]

So how would you write the rule to avoid the double jeopardy situation without negating what DSR Modified was originally created for (which, to the best of my knowledge, was to allow the neutral pick to be used as a counterpick at the end of a bo5 by the person who won on it)? Or should gentleman's rule cover that in the case that both players are ok with going back to the neutral?

One way is to word it as "you can't pick a stage you won on that you already picked." This would exclude game 1.

 

[Cheeri-Oats]

Wobbling Legal

Pausing Off -> To avoid those salty game resets before their last stock is completely dead scenarios.

Stocks 4 Timer 6

 

[King~]

why not just run 4 stock 6 mins at a few tournaments in the coming months and see how it works out? you know get the actual statistics of it cause you never really know whats gonna happen until it happens.

i mean there are plenty of tournies coming up to try this time change at *shrug*

 

[Juushichi]

very true, king

 

[Strong Badam]

@King Funk
that's mostly conjecture. how many tournaments have you ran with a 6 minute timer? i'm willing to guess 0. I also completely disagree that players are encouraged to run the timer when they notice the game reaches 1 minute left; I find that the games that timeouts occur usually begin with the idea of time out as a win condition. Regardless, if we see more time outs, is that a problem? I don't think it is. Time outs as a win condition as it is is very, very difficult, and with a 6 minute timer would change to very difficult. Bad feels aside, if we want to improve our tournament experiences I don't think "Timeouts occur 5% more often" or whatever is that big of a sacrifice to make especially if the time it takes for a timeout to occur goes down by 25%.

 

[Xelyst]

call me old school but

wobbling banned

Yes please. Please use the Apex Rules.

I can't even really believe that this is a discussion. :/

Really... in 2013? With EVO coming?

 

[Anand]

Massachusetts Institute of Tech Skill has been run with a six-minute timer, and I don't think it affected gameplay significantly. Now and then I time out a Samus or Peach with Puff, but I wasn't consciously playing to the timer until time was almost up, and it didn't affect any other matches at all, as far as I know.

 

[alejandroidex]

APEX ruleset with Wobbling legal.
Pause Turned off
4 stocks - 7 min

 

[Strong Badam]

Yes please. Please use the Apex Rules.

I can't even really believe that this is a discussion. :/

Really... in 2013? With EVO coming?

what a convincing argument

 

[BetaBahamut]

This Modified dsr seems to only have come about recently. What was wrong with "you cant pick any stage you won on" in a best of 5 no bans(with current stagelist) this seems fine. I feel the order you win your games shouldn't make a difference. Also letting people win a set on the back of one stage they are really good at and through certain scenarios can CP twice is stupid.

 

[Xelyst]

what a convincing argument

Glad you think so.

This has been debated on more than enough times.

 

[Scythe]

getting wobbled sucks but that doesn't mean it should be banned lol

 

[Gea]

Nintendude with the overall best posts of this thread.

- As stated wobbling only affects mid to low level players and the good IC players can beat these people either way, making the banning of wobbling silly. Good IC players get beaten regardless of wobbling being legal or not. Therefore make it legal. All this talk about spectator crap is nonsense, we may as well ban floaties vs floaties while we're at it.

- DSRM = places importance on when you win in a set, while DSR can force some Bo5 into stages they really don't feel like are actual counterpicks because the stage list is so small now. DSR with no bans is still the most fair and consistent rule between the two of them, it is easier to keep up with, and I don't forsee the stage list getting larger for this, though honestly I think FC stagelist was amazing.

- Timer being 6 minutes is fine. The majority of matches are well under 6 minutes and as anyone knows who has played Brawl, where's it's actually easier to time people out, it isn't exactly easy to time people out. It requires a totally different approach to the match and you have to be super consistent. Sure, M2K could plank but even he admits it isn't a consistent strategy towards winning, you have to already have the lead, and the matches where it would be used are already high enough caliber that the opposing player is good enough to have counter-strategies. Especially if this is the only tournament with a 6 minute time limit, very very few people are going to develop effective tools to aid them in running the clock.

- Does Wizard understand how stage striking works?

 

[MK26]

Bones, interesting concept (I like thinking up alternate rulesets myself) but I think the stage selection section just adds more complexity than the players will want to deal with. People will take a situation that follows KISS with a few flaws over a better if more complex system.

One way is to word it as "you can't pick a stage you won on that you already picked." This would exclude game 1.

But then it allows you to cp the neutral in game 3. If that's not a problem I'm all for it. Maybe redefine the rule as "you can't pick the last stage you won on that wasn't an opponent's counterpick". I think that covers everything.

 

[Gea]

That isn't a problem with stage striking. If you let yourself get struck to a bad stage, then it was on you. And I agree, the more simple you keep the stage-rules, the better. Our own ****ing community doesn't know the ruleset half the time. Make it simple and decent, we can consider more complex and new ideas another time. Everyone needs to know exactly how this works with no issues.

 

[MK26]

The thing is, with DSR, you can't take advantage of the fact that your opponent struck to a stage that's advantageous to you. With the stage list being so small, you'll probably play on the same 5 stages you would've played on anyway.

DSR Modified allows you to go (this is assuming the winner of game 1 is cp'ing game 5) "I like the neutral stage better than either of my other two options for game 5, so I'll go back there". Unfortunately, this causes the double jeopardy scenario where winning on your opponent's cp allows bad things to happen.

The way I've worded it is as simple as possible without having either of the above's problems, and sounds like it's what DSR Modified should've been in the first place. Of course, if the winner of game 1 shouldn't be allowed to go back to the neutral, then just use DSR.

 

[Gea]

I agree with you.

 

[King Funk]

@King Funk
that's mostly conjecture. how many tournaments have you ran with a 6 minute timer? i'm willing to guess 0. I also completely disagree that players are encouraged to run the timer when they notice the game reaches 1 minute left; I find that the games that timeouts occur usually begin with the idea of time out as a win condition. Regardless, if we see more time outs, is that a problem? I don't think it is. Time outs as a win condition as it is is very, very difficult, and with a 6 minute timer would change to very difficult. Bad feels aside, if we want to improve our tournament experiences I don't think "Timeouts occur 5% more often" or whatever is that big of a sacrifice to make especially if the time it takes for a timeout to occur goes down by 25%.

But Strong Bad, you don't get the point.

MrWizard obviously wants to make the tournament run faster, but he is barking up the wrong tree by looking at the timer (and no disrespect intended because there's no way he can know everything about Melee of course).

The point is, switching the timer from 8 to 6 minutes will NOT cut down on the time of the tournament's progress at all, because the timer has never been what makes a smash tourney long. After all, the vast majority of matches last between 2 and 5 minutes.

I still prefer 8 minutes because it acts as a better deterrent for attempting to time out.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I think simply lowering the stocks to 3 like the Japanese Melee players would be much more effective than lowering the timer when it comes to making the tournament stay at a brisk pace.

 

[Gea]

I think simply lowering the stocks to 3 like the Japanese Melee players would be much more effective than lowering the timer when it comes to making the tournament stay at a brisk pace.

While I'm all for testing stock count changes, EVO is not the place for it. 4 stock is and has been standard for years and years. The concessions to the ruleset shouldn't significantly change them, just work to best fit EVO.

 

[KayB]

Wobbling is legal, except for Wobbles.
Then we get to see **** like this:
http://youtu.be/VVcvaxEo3UU?t=3m2s
http://youtu.be/Um7lqI9rHxo?t=2m22s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDHAnYyY-4Q



Also, question. Would people be furious if Wobbling wasn't legal?

 

[Lovage]

3 stocks is terrible in melee. and where are you hearing that's what japanese players do?

 

[King Funk]

While I'm all for testing stock count changes, EVO is not the place for it. 4 stock is and has been standard for years and years. The concessions to the ruleset shouldn't significantly change them, just work to best fit EVO.

Yes, 3 stocks should definitely be tested.

If you want to reduce a tournament's run time, stocks should be changed, not the timer. The timer doesn't matter at all. And changing the timer for no reason is totally pointless.

The best would be to just stick to 4 stocks and 8 minutes, because I really don't think the tournament will last that long.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

No guys, do NOT lower the the stock count. Lowering the timer will only affect matches between floaties, and even then, matches between floaties don't normally go longer than 6 minutes. Lowering the stock count, that has been STANDARD FOR YEARS,affects every match, and is straight up dumb. Especially when you consider you want to try it for what could possibly be the biggest smash tournament of all time.

 

[King Funk]

No guys, do NOT lower the the stock count. Lowering the timer will only affect matches between floaties, and even then, matches between floaties don't normally go longer than 6 minutes. Lowering the stock count that has been STANDARD FOR YEARS, and affects every match is straight up dumb. Especially when you consider you want to try it for what could possibly be the biggest smash tournament of all time.

Imo don't lower anything. It's pointless.

 

[stabbedbyanipple]

Imo don't lower anything. It's pointless.

Yea I agree, I don't think the timer being 8 minutes instead of 6 will affect how long the tournament runs by any significant amount, but if Mr.Wizard says we absolutely HAVE to lower something, than it should definitely, no questions, be the timer to 6 instead of the stock count to 3.

 

[King Funk]

Yea I agree, I don't think the timer being 8 minutes instead of 6 will affect how long the tournament runs by any significant amount, but if Mr.Wizard says we absolutely HAVE to lower something, than it should definitely, no questions, be the timer to 6 instead of the stock count to 3.

We don't have to lower anything. We just have to make MrWizard understand that the tournament will run fast enough anyway.

 

[LLDL]

I like the idea of a 6 minute timer, **** these long *** matches man.

Get it in, in and out, shake hands.

 

[King Funk]

I like the idea of a 6 minute timer, **** these long *** matches man.

Get it in, in and out, shake hands.

I hope you're trolling.

 

[Jeffz0r]

I think that cutting down the timer from 8 to 6 minutes, will not make the tournament go faster, but slower. Since more matches will approach the time limit, there will probably be more stalling. Matches that would normally take 4 to 5 minutes, could be stalled to 6, while that would not be the case if the timer is 8.

 

[Fuzzyness]

apex rules please 8 mins timer

6 mins will increase the amount of timeouts, people will camp more and it'll take away from the gameplay and experience :/

 

[Slhoka]

I'm with King Funk on this one.
Lowering the timer isn't what will make the tournament run faster. Changing it would be likely to force floaties players who actually want to win the game by removing their opponent's stocks to change their strategy for a timeout win, and that shouldn't happen at all. I don't mind timeouts at all, but I think that if an player wants to get a "no stocks left" win, he should be have the right to do it. That's why in my opinion, the timer should be set at the lowest duration for which no "accidental" timeout happens. Six minutes is too low for that, especially on Dreamland, or Pokémon Stadium due to the transformations.

Also, I don't really see the point of lowering the timer. It will NOT make the tournament run faster, as 8-minute games are extremely rare. On the contrary, I suspect it would actually increase the average game duration, since timeout could become way easier to reach. This is only an hypothesis, and I'd like to know if some TOs were to try it.

Lowering stocks would be a much safer way to lower the event's duration, but I'm not too keen about it. I think that nealdt used it in 2007 or 2008 for Champ Combo, so you could ask him how efficient it was.

 

[Jaedrik]

Guys, we know EXACTLY how awesome APEX has been, and I want that same awesomeness for EVO, please do not change the time rules, keep it at the standard eight, and four stocks, please.
Please, I beg you all, the opponents of the 6 min timer have given quite convincing arguments as well.

I have no comment on Wobbling, but it looks like a pretty cool guy/fine thing to me.
Says no comment, then comments.

 

[Gea]

Maybe someone who has some more hard data on this should post some figures of average playtime of sets and the logistics of bracket pools under the Apex ruleset? It's easy to back and forth on the matter of timer and all that, but Mr. Wizard doesn't get anything besides he said/she said from that.