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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

Fortress | Sveet

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But his momentum wouldn't carry him through the dtilt enough for the sidestep or shield to allow a punish. DownB does seem like a prob tho
 

Archangel

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What answer does luigi legitimately have to marth's dtilt? Other than coming down from a platform? He can't jump over it with an attack can he? So he has to try and time a ftilt between the hits... sounds really fraudulent
I'm pretty sure he can WD shield it and low angle ftilt it Pretty well.

BTW CP'ing to YS as niko suggested is like counter-picking Ganon to YS. It can be good or it can be 'A TRAP!' depending on how well the opponent knows how to DI/the MU. Luigi is pretty light but so is Marth so keep it in mind. Aside from that he is right about YS. I don't mind playing there.

In the mean time...you should start viewing the Luigi MU like an odd combination of Samus and Falcon. He can tilt abuse you the same way and at times he has gets you in the same danger zones as Falcon and he can move just as fast on the ground.

Things you'll want to remember vs Luigi.

*Fsmash is your own worst enemy!

*Don't go for Ken Combos on a luigi that still has a jump.

*Dashing away from a luigi on the ground is NOT safe so be careful DD camping Luigi will likely catch you if you dash away.

*When he's WD'ing in Most likely he'll be ftilting or shielding.

-If he ftilts high angle he will stop your Fsmash and have enough time to jab-whatever he wants before you can react in most cases so DO NOT Fsmash. Instead you can try to CC Dtilt, ftilt, or even a freaking double jab should hold him off. The more frustrated the Luigi gets the greater his odds of attempted rolling in will increase. If they back off and start using fireballs then start inching in safely and look for a chance to close in on them(don't be a fool and jump it's a trap).

-Shielding is such a HUGE mind game because you are like "what! omg! he's got a shield up and he's moving at the same time! OMG that is so confusing!". What you need to remember is that it's no different from anyone else who's shielding in place. It has the same weakness and limitations. The fact that Luigi is going forward however makes it easier in a sense for you to get past him. Often times I just Azen walk past them but I don't Fsmash Dashing works too obviously. From this point wait to see if they roll, spot-dodge, keep shielding, or attempt an OoS Attack. If they Roll chase them and grab them. if they keep shielding go for a JC grab (they may be trying to bait it and look for a Spot-dodge>>Dsmash so be wary of this). If they spot-dodge grab them. If you are far enough past them their OoS attacks are limited to Bair attempt or Down B. Luigi can go for a WD grab on you but from that position it's not in his favor but it is an option. If they do dash through the grab. If Luigi Oos away well.....keeping Luigi away from you is....a victory. ;)

-Don't try to shield pressure him(LOL@ Marth shield pressure). It's pointless and Luigi can Spot-dodge Marth's whole move-set. You can go for some shield poking Dtilts or retreating Nairs as long as you space them perfectly. Getting to close to Luigi is bad for your health.

*Luigi approaches with a downB

- Counter always wins.

-Dtilt always wins(on flat ground). No need to do ANYTHING else....unless you are looking to shield the whole thing and then WD oos into grab/piviot grab/fsmash...etc. It's greater risk but potentially greater reward. Depends on how fancy you are feeling but the first two options are safe.

*what do you do when you get a grab on Luigi.

- Stage, Luigi's %, and on stage position are the 3 main factors.

- On platform stages you can Bthrow luigi one of the low platforms starting at 0%. same goes with Yoshi's, PS, and DL64 I believe (depending on DI). If you get a grab with your back to the ledge then you can Bthrow/dthrow luigi off accordingly. Bthrow can sometimes lead to Bair if Luigi tries to go above you.

- If they go far enough away from you and you are not sure what to do WD grab the edge for invincibility and wait to react to either a jump-fireball, down-b boost, or a fair attempt.

- getting a grab when you are not in a position to bthrow luigi on a platform or dthrow him off stage then you can either Upthrow him and then look to bait out a double jump or keep him in the air which is a good idea(especially on FD). You can also Fthrow>>Ftilt/utilt/fair/nair/Fsmash(if Luigi DI's in which he should not if he's thinking) Fthrow>>Nair/Ftilt/fair(if Luigi Doesn't DI) but you may have to WD toward him or get some forward momentum by dashing..etc if he is at high enough %. Fthrow>>WD dtilt can get to him if he is at low enough %. otherwise you can WD shield after him and wait to react to the tech/down-b that is more than likely coming. If he DI's away and grabs the ledge then you can respond accordingly. I suggets Dtilting or spacing a fair, ftilt, fsmash if he tries to ledge-hop fair.

*Edge guarding Luigi

- I've touched on a few things but the most important thing is R.E.S.P.E.C.T.
No it's not an acronym I'm talking about his Side-B misfire. No matter what you do you should always have a healthy respect for the danger it presents.

- with that said you can do so much to troll luigi's recovery while still remaining safe. Especially if/when Luigi is forced to charge side B.

- I suggest turning your back to him and shielding as it's the safest position and allows you to pretty much cover anything that can possibly happen.

- If no misfire happens but he gets within ledge grab range you can WD oos ledge grab>>Ledge-hop>>dair/roll up. However, If he still has options(jump, down-b stall) then plank the edge and wait for him to use his options up while you reset invincibility. If there is a chance you can even use counter on stage or off stage (depending on the situation/stage) and recover if you are fast enough.

- Luigi's air-dodge is not to be forgotten about. He can actually air dodge very close to the ledge and still grab it. If you feel the airdodge coming though wait for it an fsmash or ftilt/dtilt as you see fit.

*Final word of advice. Don't get it in your head that you know luigi's limitations better than a luigi main. They know them and more importantly they know their way around most. The best weapon in this MU is your brain not your sword.


hope this helps a little...:)
 

Toya

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The point of my platform statements: to reset the battle into something more favorable and allow Tai, clearly frustrated at Luigi, a chance to cool off and try something else other than "jump in and swing a sword, then get punished".

Using more Dtilt when you're pissed off and getting read like a newspaper is going to get great results against an opponent that is becoming increasingly comfortable with the idea of letting their foe blindly strike air. Just how much free damage did Tai give the Luigi because he/she refused to back off and start afresh?
 

Archangel

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The point of my platform statements: to reset the battle into something more favorable and allow Tai, clearly frustrated at Luigi, a chance to cool off and try something else other than "jump in and swing a sword, then get punished".

Using more Dtilt when you're pissed off and getting read like a newspaper is going to get great results against an opponent that is becoming increasingly comfortable with the idea of letting their foe blindly strike air. Just how much free damage did Tai give the Luigi because he/she refused to back off and start afresh?
:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
 

Tee ay eye

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The point of my platform statements: to reset the battle into something more favorable and allow Tai, clearly frustrated at Luigi, a chance to cool off and try something else other than "jump in and swing a sword, then get punished".

Using more Dtilt when you're pissed off and getting read like a newspaper is going to get great results against an opponent that is becoming increasingly comfortable with the idea of letting their foe blindly strike air. Just how much free damage did Tai give the Luigi because he/she refused to back off and start afresh?
For the record, I'm a guy.

I agree, though, by the way. D-tilt is fantastic when it hits... but punishable when it doesn't.
 

Niko45

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I don't really see the hype of dtilt, even when it hits. It doesn't combo and people often buffer rolls/sidesteps/attacks/movement straight out of it so often I just find it punishable and not paying off even when hitting. Near the ledge its good tho. Just seems like people talk about it dominating the neutral game in certain matchups in theory and I just don't see that happening.
 

Juushichi

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I've also kind of had a problem with it. In neutral it just doesn't seem... worth it, lol. I just get spaced around if I throw out a dtilt and miss and I don't get a good follow up if it hits.

I have used dtilt as a very janky trap. dtilt space -> jab space -> fsmash. or just dtilt -> wait -> sweet spotted fsmash.
 

MT_

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I think d-tilt is liked because of it's one of Marth's fastest ground moves and is Marth's fastest ground move a la IASA. I feel like it is really only punished when your opponent reads that you're going to d-tilt and is already planning to punish it before you even throw it out; otherwise the lag is just too little to punish anyways.

When d-tilt DOES hit, yea I agree the gains are minimal especially against better players that are used to buffering rolls and reacting to getting hit by d-tilt. But at the very least you push the opponent towards the ledge and give yourself more space, if not create a situation for you to read the buffer roll or grab them if they get scared into shield after getting hit by d-tilt.

IDK

Everytime I think about posting in these boards I type out my thoughts and then I delete the post because I feel like I don't even know what I'm talking about LOL
 

SwiftBass

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I think that dtilt works on certain approach hiabits better than others. i try not to use it too much if i am getting full hopped on. i notice
that some foxes do not full hop alot so i that advantage. same goes for cf and for falco. cf in particular i think this train of thought works well on since most cf likes to stay grounded.

:phone:
 

Tee ay eye

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr0yruO6Qsw

YouTube version as per Tai's request.
-Try adding ledgehop counters to the mix. I saw a handful of situations where a ledgehop counter would've gotten you onto the stage safely (e.g. pretty much every ledge situation of stock 1 in Game 3)

-At some point in game 1, you threw him off and he came back with a f-air. I'm not exactly good at beating this myself, but I think I'll just add a note. What TAJ likes to do when he throws Falco off-stage is react to their DI. If they DI his throw away, then they're probably going to try to sweetspot the edge or jump back and forward B, so he'll either follow them offstage, take the ledge, or wait for them to recover. If they DI in, then they're probably going to try to jump back with an airdodge or counterattack, so he'll usually just stay on-stage and either wait or counter if he expects an aerial. This is how he got that d-throw counter against Mango at Genesis 2. You SORTA did it at the end of Game 2, but it was mostly because he hesitated and made it really easy to see.

-I think counter is an underrated move in general against Falco. It's not unbeatable, but it gets a lot of free damage for you, it can get you out of some tight situations, and it sure makes Falco respect the hell out of you.

-It seemed like Queerno was sorta free to dance around you and approach you more easily than it should have been because you were too focused on the basic getting away from him and trying to grab his lag... otherwise, you would swing your sword in obvious situations (I can't exactly explain, but a lot of times where you swung your sword in attempts to defend against him, it didn't work) where it wasn't that likely to hit. I saw you try for a lot of fairs to swat him away, but they generally didn't work too well. Probably because it wasn't in a situation where he was going to approach. I can't exactly tell you much about what to do here, except you just have to be able to figure out when it's possible to hit Falco out of his approach.... I need to work on this a little more myself, so I can't give a very detailed lecture on it, but what I can tell you is that it may help to do little things like WD back f-smash/ftilt/jab/utilt/CC grab. WD back makes him think he can chase you/makes him want to close the distance, and once he's committed to moving forward, you can hit him. Doing stuff like rising fair works really well against Falco when he DOES approach, but it's punishable when he doesn't get hit by it, so I guess you could try to focus a little more on when you can and cannot do that, and it'll probably help you out a lot. Whenever you want to swat him away with a fair, just do an empty hop and see if that conditions him to not fear your aerial-OOS. If it does, then congratulations, you get a fair.

-Your powershielding is really good. I'm kinda jealous.

-Try to explore your non-shielding options a little more. This is something I need to work on more, as well. Don't get me wrong, your out-of-shield options are great, and shielding just feels like by far the most comfortable thing against Falco's lasers... but I feel like relying on your shield in the neutral game against Falco gives him a little more control if he knows you're going to stay in your shield. Hell, I might be wrong, but it wouldn't hurt to explore your other options... for example, sometimes if you tank the laser, Falco will be inclined to approach you, and then you can just DD grab him. Empty hops work sorta well too because it makes them think you're trying to recklessly jump over their laser with an attack, when that isn't actually the case.

-I noticed at times, he would get away with fullhopping an aerial to get out of tough spots. Two of the natural instincts to counter this are to get under him and u-tilt or to try to grab his landing lag.... sometimes he works around this. U-tilt is REALLY hard to hit with sometimes since it's hard to perfectly time, and if you don't time it perfectly, you're getting hit. Grab is kinda like that, too. If you do it too late, you're gonna get shined/dodged, and if you do it too early, you're gonna get hit by his aerial. You have to step your game up in return. Something you should add to the mix is to either keep dashdancing after he lands his aerial and punish whatever he does after landing (jab, shine, dodge, etc), or you can just move around/wait outside of his aerial range and outspace him with a fair, nair, or other move whenever he lands so timing isn't as much of an issue (e.g. dashdance to bait out the fullhop dair, punish with a nair or fair).

EDIT- This quote by Niko on the last page helps me illustrate what I meant with shielding:
Taking lasers and dash attacking under the next laser also completely dismantles falcos who laser in place repeatedly like this, so you don't even really need to be going for PS's this much.
Shielding is awesome. I probably use my shield more than any other Marth player in the neutral game, perhaps to a fault. I want to explore my non-shielding options more, as well, but shielding allows you to control your momentum, lets you block, is pretty good at baiting the opponent in, and is really deceptive in terms of what you can do out of it (jump, WD back, and mash ASDI down grabs), but it's definitely not the only thing you should be doing. The biggest problem with shielding is that it eliminates the chance that you can dash at them. Sure, you can wavedash out of sheild, but wavedash forward and dash aren't quite the same thing, and you shouldn't treat them as such. A smaller side effect of shielding is that you might get stuck in it (because of the inability to dash), especially against Falco's lasers, resulting in an unhappy position and burning your shield down so you might get poked.
 

Fortress | Sveet

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Dart I really dont understand your marth. You have a lot of style sometimes but when it comes to your approaches they almost feel like you're trying to just brute force your way in. You have superb punishes though, so the risk/reward is still really good. Idk this is really my only possible criticism. Good job beating kels and darkrain!
 

Toya

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Dart lacks that balance of defense that allows for great baiting; he's very aggressive. It seems such is the standard. He could use a bit more patience and forethought when the tide shifts to his opponent being the aggressor.

Regarding the "he/she" bolding: I don't know Tai. I make no presumptions; I see no humor, but feel free to find it in something that shouldn't be funny.
 

t-iceman

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I don't really see the hype of dtilt, even when it hits. It doesn't combo and people often buffer rolls/sidesteps/attacks/movement straight out of it so often I just find it punishable and not paying off even when hitting. Near the ledge its good tho. Just seems like people talk about it dominating the neutral game in certain matchups in theory and I just don't see that happening.
I wasnt hyping down tilt vs all characters just those that stay on the ground during neutral positions a lot such as luigi. Comboing luigi is basically a myth anyway as long as they know how to di and at higher percents down tilt will force a wiggle out or a tech. Luigi's air approaches vs marth are well lets say garbage, im pretty confident wd back jab/ftilt beats anything he can do in the air on reaction. Obviously you want to mix it up and not be predictable with throwing down tilts out but it is one of marths strongest moves from a neutral position (arguably the strongest, maybe jab/ftilt is stronger in some mu's and uptilt is not super good to throw out if they are also grounded) and other than baiting out a dtilt with downb tricks or just simply forcing the dtilt a lot i dont think luigi has a move that will beat it.
 

Tee ay eye

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who are you, toya?

i don't mean that in a patronizing way. i just want to know. you seem to know stuff, but i've never heard of you before.
 

Toya

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Understandable, Tai. I hardly ever came on here in the past; just started playing in the competitive sense. I main Marth, of course... and Dart always rocks me like a hurricane. ._.

Though, when I was playing friendlies at the recent SMYM, someone said, "Is that Dart?"

I have known no greater compliment in terms of playing Smash.
 

Niko45

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Damn, Dart. Your punish game is so good. On tech chases ur like **** regrabs I'm just gonna tipper everything lol.

That reverse fair fsmash edgeguard on Kels' Fox up B was so beast. I love the fair dash away pivot fsmashes too.

I don't like all the empty hop/late fair/dair approaching on sheik it seemed like Kels wasn't CC ****** you when he could have (he would just CC into shield and then you'd just do something else). Maybe that was based off conditioning of some sort, idk, but personally I prefer to stay grounded when approaching sheik (dash attack/dtilt/grab) cause I just feel like its so easy to get blown up for short hopping and waiting to late fair (things like sheik walking ftilt, overshot dash attack, run up CC into anything just beat it).

Also never roll up from the ledge when sheik is JUST barely not going to make it back to the stage without up B she's always always always going to air dodge in that situation (they hate up Bing and will avoid it if they can understandably).
 

knightpraetor

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"I don't like all the empty hop/late fair/dair approaching on sheik it seemed like Kels wasn't CC ****** you when he could have (he would just CC into shield and then you'd just do something else). Maybe that was based off conditioning of some sort, idk, but personally I prefer to stay grounded when approaching sheik (dash attack/dtilt/grab) cause I just feel like its so easy to get blown up for short hopping and waiting to late fair (things like sheik walking ftilt, overshot dash attack, run up CC into anything just beat it)."

disagree pretty heavily with this..i went back and watched all the famous marth vs sheik matches(aka m2k and ken) and they almost exclusively try to play in the air...

i think staying on the ground isn't too bad at low percent, but you can't dashdance very safely because of dash attack and needles.

also, CC doesn't beat late aerials, you can notice them breaking your spacing and just dair on reaction....the walk up ftilt or even rush in aerial from sheik do win...but even so, i think that's far better than staying on the ground once you can no longer CC dash attack..

correction, i guess if they shield randomly instead they may win half the time at best...but you can bait out the shield usage if they really are running up to CC and then shield at the last second when they think you will dair.

and even when you can CC dash attack...good sheiks just go for a lot of grab so you are better off just trying to space aerially
 

Niko45

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As long as you keep a safe distance from sheik (stand at the edge of her dash attack range) you shouldn't be having a problem with dash attack staying grounded. Either shield it on reaction, or even better, do a quick dash away pivot grab on it. You should never just be spamming dash dance in any matchup. It's all about singular dash away pivots on reaction to approaching. Good sheiks will just run up and grab you sometimes so its better to dash away than to try to shield or CC dash attack if possible.

Trying to attack air to ground is just really bad almost universally with Marth unless you've already established pressure and have forced them into shield. You're really vulnerable to CCing amongst just being hit randomly while your hitboxes are not active (ever try late fair approaching a fox? Proceed to get nair planed across stage if they call it out with an early nair).

You can do late aerials into shielding immediately to combat people who CC with attacks but sheik can just CC grab you so it's just bad news.
 

knightpraetor

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I guess i feel the part you're missing out on is that you run out of space on platform stages really fast....and we were discussing approaching late fairs....

my point was merely that sh forward aerial is one of marth's safest ways of taking space, yes outspacing their dash attack with movement is obviously nice, but we were talking about approaching..to take space marth cannot just dash in safely without entering sheik's threat range

this means that just dashing in and waiting for potential wavedash back is not safe..

which leads to sheik being able to bait your approaches very easily once you run low on room...you can of course approach along the ground with an attack, but that leads to commitment (though dtilt is a nice balance with its low commitment but still putting out a hitbox)...but regardless in order to avoid sheik knowing that you are going to come in once you have run out of space it becomes necessary to use sh forward; that way you can deal with the potential dodge motions without instantly being baited

now i guess you could also potentially just wait it out at the ledge, but i think that becomes rather risky too..

as for whether ground is better than aerial when you have a lot of space...maybe..
 

ArcNatural

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I guess i feel the part you're missing out on is that you run out of space on platform stages really fast....and we were discussing approaching late fairs....

my point was merely that sh forward aerial is one of marth's safest ways of taking space, yes outspacing their dash attack with movement is obviously nice, but we were talking about approaching..to take space marth cannot just dash in safely without entering sheik's threat range

this means that just dashing in and waiting for potential wavedash back is not safe..

which leads to sheik being able to bait your approaches very easily once you run low on room...you can of course approach along the ground with an attack, but that leads to commitment (though dtilt is a nice balance with its low commitment but still putting out a hitbox)...but regardless in order to avoid sheik knowing that you are going to come in once you have run out of space it becomes necessary to use sh forward; that way you can deal with the potential dodge motions without instantly being baited

now i guess you could also potentially just wait it out at the ledge, but i think that becomes rather risky too..

as for whether ground is better than aerial when you have a lot of space...maybe..

I'm not sure I agree with sh late fair being one of his better ways to take space. Especially vs Sheik. In this case your relying on people not to run up and mess up the spacing (forcing you to fair earlier so it's not late or straight up just running up and cc'ing it). Not to mention that the weakest point of fairing is your feet (fair hitbox starts above you) so characters with strong dash attacks (Sheik, Peach, etc.) can and will always try to trade fair with dash attack in those situations.

Marth's ground priority, and movement I think are both better for creating space. Especially vs Sheik. Dtilt conditioning also works rather well vs Sheik because Sheiks like to stay grounded as well.
 

Niko45

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Yea short hopping forward with a late fair could be among the worst ways to take space...

Taking space is always going to have some risk to it so it's important to consider your defenses in case you get hit while doing it. Because of this, approaching from the air is way more risky as you forfeit CC and ASDI options and generally are just going to get combo'd harder or forced to trade hits more often from that position.

Approaching from the air generally you want to have a hitbox covering you the entire time to offset some of this serious risk. Marth's nair is decent for this (no fox nair but oh well). Moving forward in the air with no hitbox is really dangerous and fair on top of that is an extremely slow aerial for covering your feet, so it may very well not be possible to protect yourself with it on reaction without at the very least taking a poor trade from a grounded opponent.
 

Construct

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Roll less. Don't roll up from the ledge to recover, use an attack/waveland onto the stage+do something/hop up and counter. Stop charging random fsmashes. JC your dashgrabs, at least more often. You have a lot of the basics down; wavedashing (although you could use it more, ie everytime you rolled), shorthopped aerials, grabs etc. Try to spend less time in your shield, a more advanced sheik will be grabbing loads more. Be more varied. 90% of the time you were approaching it was dash in -->grab, or you'd wait for your opponent to approach while you shielded then grabbed. Use more fairs. Use more dtilt.
 

Archangel

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It's something about the Doc-marth swap lol. I Main'd Doc and seconded Mario for like....4 or 5 years. Then swapped to Marth suddenly. I think it is a matter of the cape. Mario's cape is fake and you have to press side-b to use it. Marth has a cape the whole time. I'm pretty sure that's the reason. :cool:
 
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