Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Fregadero]

I think Mafia still mains peach but he goes Peach/Falco/Falcon. I don't have a lot of Falco experience and it was 4am, but its w/e. The second set is against a sheik I play all the time so if anyone has the time id appreciate the feedback. Also utilt won't kill falco at 130% unless its tippered on the top platform of yoshis.

Thanks for the tips guys, I'm getting better every day.

 

[Construct]

First match: Your friend had some pretty sweet Falco combos, haha. You let too many side b recoveries happen, jab eats that right up. Kind of a more general point is that you seem to be hitting without a purpose. On Yoshi's especially, you should either be pressuring him to the edge for a gimp, a low platform for a tipper, or up for silly juggle combos. In general, when you hit you need to punish harder, a lot of times you'll just snag a bair/fair and then back off. Marth is at his weakest in the neutral game and at his strongest in the sillypunishcapabilities game, especially against spacies.


Don't run off stage into falco's dair. D:

Second match: I really like how you use side-b for strange little floatiness stuff, and that cool turn around out of utilts around 2:15. Your friend airdodge suicided twice, yell at him for that lol. Wow, again, I really like your use of sideb to disrupt his attacks, I'm going try that out a bit. Dtilt to ftilt worked rather nicely when you used it. I don't have too much to say here, i sux at sheik.

 

[Grape Ape]

Your friend airdodge suicided twice, yell at him for that lol.

He actually did it D;

 

[Juushichi]

This isn't for my own vids, but I would like some of the Marth's (or actually Shroomed, lol) to break down this video of Shroomed (Marth) vs SilentSpectre (Falcon).

Not necessarily for the critique (you know, since Shroomed didn't request this, obviously), but I guess to break down and get in his head as to why he chose certain options or why certain things he did were good. What I noticed in general was the efficiency on his tech-chase game and his willingness to WDOOS very various things that Falcon did. But that's not really exclusive to his Marth as we all know.

 

[Niko45]

He's swinging at the right times a lot. Anticipating SS coming in and utilting or fairing. The WD oos fsmash thing is a good trick cause when you throw up your shield people switch gears to offense and then you immediately fsmash afterwards and it catches a lot. Good to keep people honest and scared of you but he actually was whiffing a lot of those and against a non rusty Falcon that is going to be a death or close to it so imo he should use that a bit more sparingly.

I really liked the way he completely backed off the ledge once Falcon got back and went into DD grab mode. Falcon is in a really tough spot to do anything about that compared to directly coming off the edge where he has a couple of decent tricks.

 

[Archangel]

Falcon has more issues vs Marth that people are starting to realize. He's one of the characters who can't get away from marth or really control him. Just DD and do the little things right and you win. Falcon has a gun but he will never use it. You have range over him so as long as you are patient and keep enough distance to react to any of his approaches there really isn't much that Falcon can do.

@Boat Mode. It seemed like you were playing a different match vs Mafia. What I mean by that is you tossed out moves that didn't seem to fit the situation a few times. As if you moves were preset or if you were just going off things you had seen in the past but not really sure as to what you were suppose to be doing and when. However that's excusable since you said you don't play alot of Falco's and I can relate. Even if you know the MU in your head but never play it when you finally do it's like....idk it's difficult.

 

[I R MarF]

At the match with Shroomed, I think there were two ideas that would benefit a lot of Marths...

1. Shroomed never approached with a grab outright. He really only used grabs for tech chase. A lot of this could translate into being: getting the opponent offstage > grab combos.
2. After Marth throws to start a tech chase, immediately run up to the opponent and shield. You can cover literally all of their options at low and mid percents with shield grab or WDOS

 

[Shroomed]

I get so greedy with my WD OOS smashes that I do get punished a lot.

Against Falcon, I think Marth is pretty good at forcing him to do something. Wavedashing in is better than throwing Marth's laggy *** fair out because you'll just get naired before the second one and once falcon touches you free 50% minimum.

Techchasing falcon is easy. And the more you scare someone by invading their space or w/e, the sooner they'll fall into scared noob habits. Once I 3-0'd him in first set it was over because he started doing predictable rolls and whatnot (because he was nervous/scared).

 

[Archangel]

he started doing predictable rolls and whatnot (because he was nervous/scared).

We ain't Nervous! We ain't Nervous!

 

[Ballin]

i was playing with my friend who plays falco and i was trying to apply pressure to make him roll. but every time he rolled, he could spot dodge before i got a grab off.
i was like... how in the world... so we tried by me standing next to him and i told him to roll to the right. I started running the exact same time he started to roll, and his buffer spot dodge is faster than my grab. so with a perfect reaction you can't tech chase a falco? you just have to be in the right spot and predict?

for example, if i get a counter off, and it knocks him on the ground... what can i do after that?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

i was playing with my friend who plays falco and i was trying to apply pressure to make him roll. but every time he rolled, he could spot dodge before i got a grab off.
i was like... how in the world... so we tried by me standing next to him and i told him to roll to the right. I started running the exact same time he started to roll, and his buffer spot dodge is faster than my grab. so with a perfect reaction you can't tech chase a falco? you just have to be in the right spot and predict?

for example, if i get a counter off, and it knocks him on the ground... what can i do after that?

There's actually quite a bit of time during the roll where falco is not invincible and therefore can be grabbed. For the visual on the rolls, as soon as his feet touch the ground he is out of invincibility. Forward or backwards. If he spotdodges, it is as soon as his head begins to lift.

 

[Archangel]

i was playing with my friend who plays falco and i was trying to apply pressure to make him roll. but every time he rolled, he could spot dodge before i got a grab off.
i was like... how in the world... so we tried by me standing next to him and i told him to roll to the right. I started running the exact same time he started to roll, and his buffer spot dodge is faster than my grab. so with a perfect reaction you can't tech chase a falco? you just have to be in the right spot and predict?

for example, if i get a counter off, and it knocks him on the ground... what can i do after that?

rolling and teching are very different things. techchasing is possible you just have to have good enough reaction time. If you wait for Falco to complete his roll animation and then try to grab him then yeah he can dodge it. You have to react left, right or neutral instantly when you see him tech and then you start the grab so that you catch him coming out of his invincibility.

 

[Tee ay eye]

So I came to a small little epiphany today.

I really like talking about Smash, and I feel like I gain a lot from it, but I'm not a giant fan of the open forum setting for a few reasons. It takes a long time to get your responses (not a giant problem, but still slightly off-putting), but moreover, since it's a free-for all discussion, there's a bit too much entropy in discussion for my liking (things can deviate too far from what we're talking about) and since people aren't speaking directly to me, I don't feel particularly inclined to respond.

I've generally liked my experiences talking about Smash through Facebook messages or through AIM because both people get constant feedback on everything they say as opposed to writing up some broad general statement that is open and addressed to everyone. I feel like direct conversations about the game are just much more productive, meaningful, and interactive, which makes it a better medium for learning.

Feel free to even send me a link to a match for me to watch and talk about, but I'll warn you that I'll be less likely to do that because it requires me to dedicate a few minutes of concentration to just that, and I don't exactly have a specific thing to look for, and because it's just me talking about a match rather than having an interactive discussion on-the-fly... although that can lead to a nice discussion. As I said, feel free to send matches my way, but don't take it personally if I don't watch them

tl;dr: Feel free to hit me up on AIM (xroflmaowtfx) or messaging me directly on Facebook with questions or topics of discussion of pretty much anything pertaining to the game (does not necessarily have to be directly Marth related).

xfghfghghdfghdfgh

 

[stelzig]

Some more critique for beat. I'm not a top player, so people are very welcome to call me out on something if it is wrong/bad advice
Hope you don't mind me posting before you actually linked to the vids yourself.

Vs. android
I really don’t understand your reaction after his DJ airdodge @ 0:26, that was a free utilt/uair combo against a sheik with no jump. Some sort of tunnel vision Dair (though I don’t see what you were expecting then) or maybe the platform confused you? In general, I think you should add more uthrow and utilts/uairs into your game instead of all the bthrowing, but I guess you prefer techchasing.
At 1:14 android airdodges out of a throw again, this time you make a weird dsmash, that I don’t understand. Some sort of follow-up, android could maybe have avoided by doing that, but dsmash? I think you may want to start adding more waiting into your game. Like after this throw, just dash towards him and see what he does instead of throwing out a dsmash and hoping it hits. (actually, now that I think about it, I guess it was an accidental dsmash and maybe you wanted to dtilt instead? I’ll let my point stay though. Waiting and reacting is pretty good… And I’m saying that even though my reaction time is relatively bad)

1:45 I was surprised you even made the edgehog in time without fastfalling. Just restating this thing because it is really easy with marth (and goes a lot faster with marth).

SideB’ing the needle was cool

(approaching a lot with nairs blablabla. Niko may like it, but it isn’t working out for you)
(I hate yoshi’s story)

3:35 I don’t think I need to tell you what you did wrong, I approve of your decision though (If you really want to win, then you might want to save that stuff for friendlies though )

4:00 combo, you’re pretty quick on throwing in Fairs. I’m not sure there is a conclusively better way of dealing with this, but I would again prefer keeping sheik in the air (SH uair instead of Fair there) and get some reliable damage racked up. I can understand if some people would prefer just going for some horizontal stuff and trying to knock the sheik off early though

I probably shouldn’t comment so much on screw-ups, but 5:08 cloud, you should really have seen coming. On that note, I guess I can add that you don’t always have to roll in if you haven’t realized this yet. I know it was a big eye-opener for eagle in his sheik edgeguarding, lol. You can often just use a normal getup. Would’ve been more appropriate here for instance.
5:30 – Nice dashattack, turnaround utilt, uthrow… Oh no, he threw out a (weirdly spaced) Bair instead of waiting and doing some awesome comeback combo

You get another uthrow shortly after and do more “get sheik off the stage” stuff instead of damage. Still fair enough if that is your style I guess, but I can’t help commenting on it. Nice to see uthrows at least.

I feel like you should’ve hit a Fair instead of jumping back when android decided to go low @ 5:44, but I’m no expert on edgeguarding so maybe I am wrong.

I think you kinda started doing worse after you lost your second stock on yoshi’s. Until that it wasn’t going bad for you.

Vs. Jadde
To keep going on your sheik game, I decided to take a quick look at your set vs. jadde. (even though your youtube comment implies that you don’t approve of that set
Jadde keeps DJing out of stuff to avoid combos. You should just DJ after him and **** him for being sheik in the air without a jump. You seem to catch on to this eventually, but just never really gets anything out of it. Maybe this is why you found the game bad?
I actually really like your spaced Nairs here

6:42 – remember those pics showing that you can buffer a turnaround after dtilt on sheiks shield to avoid (and punish) shieldgrabs? Yeah, that would’ve been so cool if you had done that :D (went ahead and found the topic if you haven’t seen it before: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=280608 don’t know if some good shield DI prevents this from working at close range though)

Near the end, you actually walk up from the edge during an edgeguard, so I guess you are not completely oblivious to it. I think that you might still not have realised just how good it is though

 

[Beat!]

Some of the things you mentioned, like the dair at 0:26 (and at least one of the dsmashes can't remember which one), were total tech skill mess ups haha. I was pretty nervous.

Thanks a lot for taking your time. A lot of what you said are things I think will be very helpful. Again, I'll post all the vids eventually (my sets vs Kuja and HI5 are up at least), but I was really hoping for my set vs Masterkai first.

 

[stelzig]

From what i've heard, masterkai is pretty good so i'm really impressed that you beat him. Good job :O
Just to be sure (I have a tendency to become uncertain about things when I give advice, even if it's stuff i've used before myself), I went ahead and tested the whole walk up from the edge thing against sheik's UpB, and it definitely does work even when she can get the upb hitbox close enough to you and without invincibility from grabbing the egde. So basically this can be used at anytime where you can edgehog and roll, except with less lag and a better position for most situations. (I guess rolling makes the edge unhogable for longer, but sheik's recovery is predictable so... )

 

[Beat!]

Thanks. I'm pretty damn good at Marth dittos.

I have my moments against Sheik as well (I usually go even with Aniolas nowadays), but I'm way too inconsistent. :/

 

[Archangel]

Dude Stelzig pretty much covered the things I was going to mention. I can see how some of it was nerves though but...nerves against Sheik and you've already lost. The Set vs Peach you did well...although it seemed the peach was doing pretty bad lol. Still you did all the right things so if he did all the wrong things that's his fault.

 

[Niko45]

Did I miss something? I don't see a link for Beat's stuff. Help?

 

[Beat!]

Meh, the set vs Masterkai isn't up yet, so I might as well post the other ones:

vs Kuja (Peach): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xanT7m8WEs

vs HI5 (Falcon/Falco): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubJC4Yx_nFo

vs Jadde (Sheik): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gp-by8M0bNw

vs Android (Sheik): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dgaUIxQYr0 DON'T WATCH GAME 3 THERE'S NOTHING TO SEE

vs Masterkai (Marth/Fox): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrMMw...18FUAAAAAAAAAA




... I fsmash way too much.

 

[Archangel]

I fsmash way too much.

This is a common distress signal I've seen and noticed in myself. When nervous and already losing people tend to start tossing out Fsmashes to try and solve the problem but in fact you make it worse.

 

[Niko45]

Ok I can do a sheik write up in a little bit. I'll edit it in.

 

[Beat!]

Nnniiikoooooo

 

[Archangel]

dude is like 50 years late with the critique...what's up?

 

[Beat!]

Yoooo

My last set is up

vs Masterkai (Marth/Fox): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrMMwbdArtU&feature=g-u-u&context=G2776b18FUAAAAAAAAAA

 

[Tekk]

You're being way too predictable with those Fsmashes.
I think you should be more patient, shorthop and dashdance a lot more.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrMMwbdArtU&feature=g-u-u&context=G2776b18FUAAAAAAAAAA#t=57s intsead of fsmashing you could've jumped wavelanded and grabbed him, or just uptilt, simple stuff like that.

Just my 2cents; I'm not marth expert so I don't want to talk about more specific stuff that I don't really know about.

 

[Beat!]

You're absolutely right. Unfortunately I've noticed it myself for some time, so I need to start consciously tell myself to stop doing it.

I think it's kinda nerve-related, because I don't think I do it nearly as much in friendlies...

 

[Niko45]

So sorry Beat!

Alright so I'll do a general critique on the vids against the two sheiks and the marth as those sets are more interesting.

Basically I think your hugest problem has 2 aspects to it. 1) You're really aggressive. This isn't necessarily a bad thing I love this style of Marth and as I said I love your nairs and fairs when you're l cancel dashing away properly. 2) You don't grab approach/aggressively almost at all.

So what's happening a ton of the time is that your opponent is just like running forward a bit, shielding whatever you do because you aren't grabbing to keep them honest, and then counter attacking. You dash attack wayyyyyy too much. I love some good dash attack but you can't use it this much. Grabs keep people honest and you've got to keep a good balance here.

Your grab game on sheik also needs a ton of work because you're pretty much never converting up throw (just takes practice and feel, work on your full hop aerial spacing which is a weakness a lot of marths have). You're also up throwing at too high a % in some spots imo. Fthrow tech chasing sheik is extremely effective because she's forced to tech until a very high percent and you can basically on reaction dtilt in front of you or tipper the tech roll in behind you. Dthrowing her off stage is also the very best thing you can do to her in general because you can exploit her recovery asap which is the way you want to be fighting sheik. You passed up a dthrow off stage in a few spots and chose to upthrow her into the middle of the stage. No bueno.

And yea, lets stay on the topic of abusing her recovery. You need to be way more aggressive in taking the ledge from her asap. You get a random poke dtilt near the ledge that JUST pushes her off? Get on the ledge. Nair her sidestep? Get on the ledge. You get caught staring at her recovering for free sometimes where you could be forcing her to take big damage (sheik at low % is ALWAYS going to recover to the stage as taking damage is better than risking having you edgehog them at 20%).

Similarly in the Marth ditto you kinda just stand there and dtilt as he DJ sweet spots. This is really bad cause not only are you letting him back for free you're now lagging from dtilt and at frame disadvantage as he gets off the ledge. Generally speaking characters like marth/sheik/falcon are going to try to sweetspot because it's the safer recovery option that they're all comfortable with. For sheik to jump back fair or something is super risky because if she gets hit out of that she is very likely to die, so she's probably not going to start doing that until you start establishing that you are willing to take the ledge and make recovering a headache for her. THAT'S when you start dtilt/fsmashing - to try to catch them catching you taking ledge. You can also drop zone fair marth/falcon out of their DJ sweetspots pretty easily for gimps so that's a great option as well. You have to spook people off stage, get them uncomfortable and off balance, and then you will start really opening up true 50/50s every time you get someone off stage. But if you never do something about their easiest, safest option then they will just recover on you all day long.

A lot of the time you seem to default to DDing when you and the opponent are really far away from each other. This isn't a good habit because DDing limits your options compared to walking or standing and you don't want to be committing yourself when nothing is happening. You usually end up dash attacking a shield in these spots.

Against sheik you're crumbling to corner pressure all the time. You have to be brave and learn to fight confidently with your back to the ledge. Sheik is actually not that great at approaching you in that spot, and you stand to get a lot out of getting her offstage asap. Don't be nervous and roll in, full hop, shield completely unnecessarily, etc. In general, when you get OFF the ledge, get off with a purpose. Seems like you generally ledgehop fair alot and when that works, ****, but when it doesn't you just shield and there isn't much of a plan besides roll or basically get ***** after that point. If you catch yourself shielding in a spot where you don't want to be, retreat fair is just generally a great way to exit shield safely without compromising yourself too much (can alway fade back to the ledge, or fair again as you land while hopefully you gathered your thoughts and have formulated some type of plan for how to proceed).

You're running into sheik's jump needle zone a lot. Stay out of this zone at all costs. Don't fight her on her terms. Make her come to you if she's just stuffing you with needles every time you come in.

You're doing a lot of aerials in general that aren't hitting anything and just look like you're throwing them out there. You need to swing to hit, especially against sheik, as she will just destroy your landing lag. I like that you are aggressive but a lot of this appears to feed from being impatient, and it's important to stay under control and not just impulse nair in place or something. Swat sheik out of the air once she has committed to the air first. Don't commit to the air first basically ever against sheik or most characters for that matter.

Keep working on the tech skill. Aerial dash away ***** but you're missing the l cancels on some of the fairs, particularly the ones coming down from a full hop.

Don't be so nervous during recovery, you're DJing high above the ledge sometimes and falling on sheik's shield with dair and stuff like that. Thats no good. Be confident off stage and always read what they are going for and try to adjust accordingly. Especially against Fox.

 

[Beat!]

Wow, thanks a lot! You're awesome (same goes to stelzig and the few others who took their time).

 

[Fregadero]

That advice helped me lol

 

[Construct]

Yeah Niko, cheers for posting that, picked up a thing or two.

 

[Archangel]

I'm starting to think we should put together a Critique tier list. I vote Niko vs SS-tier.

 

[knightpraetor]

i had thought i was going to hate niko forever for not having faith in the divine calling of swordsmanship...but he gives good advice..which puts him up 1000x over leffen, so even though i haven't watched but two of his matches he must be at least decent

 

[Archangel]

i had thought i was going to hate niko forever for not having faith in the divine calling of swordsmanship...but he gives good advice..which puts him up 1000x over leffen, so even though i haven't watched but two of his matches he must be at least decent

:o gasp.... been years since I've heard Niko described as decent.

 

[ShroudedOne]

When did Leffen not give good advice...?

 

[Inty17]

I don't care if he gives good advice. He plays Yoshi. :D :D :D :D

 

[Niko45]

lol what does Leffen have to do with anything. Anyway, glad I could be helpful.

 

[MT_]

Hey guys, I've been working on my Falco game for what feels like forever and I feel like I've hit a wall on terms of my matchup knowledge and think that it's time to reach out to my fellow Marth mains for this one. My opponent IS better than me in this case, but I think if you watch the video you can see that my general strategy versus Falco has a lot of room for improvement... Any advice?

http://www.twitch.tv/ojosjos/b/309872138

I seem to have a lot of trouble taking advantage of Falco when he's above me, and DEFINITELY a lot of trouble trying to get onto the stage once I've grabbed the ledge. All criticisms/advice are welcome!

 

[Archangel]

Hey guys, I've been working on my Falco game for what feels like forever and I feel like I've hit a wall on terms of my matchup knowledge and think that it's time to reach out to my fellow Marth mains for this one. My opponent IS better than me in this case, but I think if you watch the video you can see that my general strategy versus Falco has a lot of room for improvement... Any advice?

http://www.twitch.tv/ojosjos/b/309872138

I seem to have a lot of trouble taking advantage of Falco when he's above me, and DEFINITELY a lot of trouble trying to get onto the stage once I've grabbed the ledge. All criticisms/advice are welcome!

You have some room for improvement but I can see the strides you have made since the last time you posted a video here. I wish I had the anti-laser game down.

anyway. I noticed you sometimes recover to close to the edge. Like the very first kill for example and the last one of the first match. If you are going to be that close you should have try to feel out the opponent's attack and air dodge on stage from that close. Also sometimes you try to hard to DI through Falco. As strange as it sounds you are better off DI'ing out and away from the stage than trying to DI in and through him. If you don't smash DI perfectly you become easy combo food. If Falco is above you and still has a jump left then you have to follow up on him while he is still stunned/in a disadvantageous situation. If he does not have a jump you should still look to catch him with a well timed Uair/Utilt. However if he has been in the air for awhile don't be shocked if he goes for an air-dodge. In which case you should just wait and punish accordingly....umm I'm bad at giving advice in this MU tbh so..this is all I have for now lol.

 

[Tee ay eye]

tell texas to upload their **** onto youtube

no one likes to watch recorded broadcasts on twitch

i'll check it out later

if i remember to