Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[t-iceman]

you and I seemed to have made alot of the same mistakes in this MU lol. Fsmashing at full shields...why do we do it?

i was nervous lol and im pretty sure i only did it twice, looking back i really do need to grab shields more.
EDIT: also i was punishing a lot of rolls but i was only hitting them with fair lol, i need to start grabbing them.
Also @spam 12:23-12:30 legacy plox?

 

[Archangel]

i was nervous lol and im pretty sure i only did it twice, looking back i really do need to grab shields more.
EDIT: also i was punishing a lot of rolls but i was only hitting them with fair lol, i need to start grabbing them.
Also @spam 12:23-12:30 legacy plox?

Got it :D.

btw your from Westcoast region now right?

 

[Dart!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLQx3nlw-DY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH5wiHLB8lI

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

josh something i noticed you did vs both of them is, when you have the perfect spaced fair on shield where you don't even need to lcancel or anything to avoid grab/punishment, you immediately give up your spacial threat by doing something immediately. In this vids I think i saw you always immediately back up and fair. I think any time you get a fair on shield like that you are free to literally just stare at them until they move; thats what azen used to do at least.

 

[t-iceman]

Got it :D.

btw your from Westcoast region now right?

Yes, also I wish i could go to apex and see all you east coast fools but dat plane ticket at $450, it ain't happening

EDIT: Also @Dart first of all im not gonna act like i know these mu's better than you; i still remember genesis pools where you ***** me. Against hbox you have to realize that he will play incredibly gay. Like he's not going to do an unsafe approach hes just going to zone. This tactic is beatable but unfortunately in this mu its hard. If you see him get that first bair at low percent you have to di down and away which is counter intuitive but unless you want to repeat what happened stock 1 you best di away. Also you can't shield grab and i mean ever. Against a character that can simply crouch and kill you, its a risk i wouldn't take. If you see he's going for the rest you should dair oos because it is most likely going to result in a missed tech which can give you a grab/fsmash etc (you actually don't want to fair out of shield cause that will miss lol). You actually did a pretty good job of killing hbox fairly early which is impressive, unfortunately you gave away too many free stocks for it to matter. As far as the kage match im pretty sure you were incredibly nervous and shouldn't have cp'd yoshi's aka gannon's story so im not even going to go into that.

 

[Dart!]

thanks for the help guys ^
the first thing about improvement is accepting when you get ***** and learn from it.

 

[Niko45]

Iceman:

I think you should focus on crouch cancelling because you don't seem to do it much or at least miss a lot of opportunities to do it. Fox wasn't dairing you ever. CC grab all those bairs and nairs, especially the really obvious ones when he's dropping down from platforms.

If you're not totally comfortable with ledgehop dairing fox up B you can ledgehop into a counter and it sorta mitigates the awkwardness of those edgeguard situations you were in.

Don't get ***** by getup attack ever it's an absolute killer. Jab reset if he's waiting for you on the ground too long, or run up with shield and then react if he does regular stand or getup attack, or just blatantly CC it into stuff.

I'm not a fan of pivot nairs like this and you mentioned them as well. I can see why people get in the habit of doing them, I certainly had my phase, they're pretty good but ultimately not as good as just staring at their shield waiting for them to do something or just straight up grabbing them.

I think in general you're a little quick to go into the air unsafely and should work on disciplining yourself to stay on the ground more often from neutral.

Nice Marth tho, some good punishes.

 

[t-iceman]

Iceman:

I think you should focus on crouch cancelling because you don't seem to do it much or at least miss a lot of opportunities to do it. Fox wasn't dairing you ever. CC grab all those bairs and nairs, especially the really obvious ones when he's dropping down from platforms.

If you're not totally comfortable with ledgehop dairing fox up B you can ledgehop into a counter and it sorta mitigates the awkwardness of those edgeguard situations you were in.

Don't get ***** by getup attack ever it's an absolute killer. Jab reset if he's waiting for you on the ground too long, or run up with shield and then react if he does regular stand or getup attack, or just blatantly CC it into stuff.

I'm not a fan of pivot nairs like this and you mentioned them as well. I can see why people get in the habit of doing them, I certainly had my phase, they're pretty good but ultimately not as good as just staring at their shield waiting for them to do something or just straight up grabbing them.

I think in general you're a little quick to go into the air unsafely and should work on disciplining yourself to stay on the ground more often from neutral.

Nice Marth tho, some good punishes.

Thanks Niko, pretty solid advice, back to the lab.

 

[wendell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1oBlBzt89aY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yK04FW04UMU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3JiLX63iig&feature=related
help me please,i`m tired of brawl D: character ban,patience,time outs,and more,but that`s all folks,

 

[Metal Reeper]

Wendell:

You randomly full hop a lot....Dont use sword Dance. Grab more. Much more.
Fthrow>Dash attack is cool on Peach. You need to work on your reaction time. Some of your shieldgrabs were very late. You need to dash dance. Dtilt is very good, use it. Especially Dash canceled Dtilt>GTFO.
Just don't sword dance....there is always a better option. And anyone that knows what DI is wont get hit by it.
Don't full hop nair at people, that's just silly. Wavedash OoS. It is very underrated.

 

[Palpi]

Taj would argue that forward B is good, but I feel like it shouldn't be implemented until after you have the basics down.

 

[Archangel]

ForwardB vs Peach will usually get you nair'd in the face.

 

[Tee ay eye]

forward B ****ing *****

 

[Dart!]

tech chase dsmash on peach. good or great?

 

[Ørn]

Hey guys. Been trying to learn Marth for the past couple of months, I was a Samus main before.

Been using him somewhat successfully in tournament matches, though I think I owe it mainly to the fact that I have pretty good movement, very good spacing (well... comparatively) and I have an amazing ability to land tipper fsmashes. Also, I'm pretty good with predicting whether people will shield or not.

What I'm mainly looking for is match-up advice, ideas for approaches, tips on recovering and advice on edgeguarding. I know the basics for the most part, but feel free to repeat them; I might not actually take advantage of them.

Thanks in advance!

Vs. Sheik: www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hlXTefNgaY
Vs. Sheik/Marth: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oralsa2EDIo
Vs. Falco: www.youtube.com/watch?v=leg_WRKOH4g
Vs. Fox: www.youtube.com/watch?v=hflpxo9Ydp4

If you're only looking at one, I'd suggest the Fox one. It's the match-up I have the hardest time figuring out.

 

[ILM]

Well, just uploaded these, any advice would be great.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFnMIwsHNKo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDD53LuxiQc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MDqdp5no8

 

[Tee ay eye]

i saw that your costume and your sword swings were green
that's good

your opponent was blue
so naturally, picking grass marth was a good counterpick

 

[Tee ay eye]

except he countered your grass marth with fire fox in game 3

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Should I bother giving you guys the link to matches where I used the worst controller ever or should I just show the ones which I used my not-as-bad-but-still-bad controller?

 

[Metal Reeper]

Forward B should only be used if it's going to be followed up with an Utilt. Which only works vs Peach IC's and Puff.

 

[Tee ay eye]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyN8K-iDmOM

critique my set with forward

Spoiler

sheik is a dumb *****

 

[OverLord]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyN8K-iDmOM

critique my set with forward

Spoiler

sheik is a dumb *****

Your overall movement heavily improved, but Forward read some patterns in it after a while, try to mix it up and not being repetitive with wavelands and positioning.

I find your Fox game a bit weak, but there's just the first match, so I can't say much.

Against Falco there's not much to say.

Against Sheik:

You did better overall than Forward, you got momentum and you were on point. Smart counterpick on FoD, you should've won there and ended the set.

Jump less! Sheik doesn't give a **** if you are going around try to trick her 'cause she got dumb hitboxes that covers lots of options, so try to stay more on the ground and CROUCH more. I don't think I saw you CCing a DashAttack once. That's bad IMO.

If you shield a DashAtt, Dair OoS, it works better than just grabbing, opens up for combos and Fsmashes/stuff.

The second set Forward was more confident and was punishing you hard for mistakes, you were a bit off and committing way too much to re-gain control, for next time I suggest to be more patient to not let the opponent feel comfortable with stage controlling.

You edgeguarded well but you were tryng to put that Dair for punishing Sheik's UpB Lag and it often ended up in nothing. I know it feels boring but try just to Fsmash her again and again 'til you can get a well placed tipper; mixing it up feels great but sometimes makes easier for Sheik to live 'til very high percents.

Overall you did good, you just need to be more consistent in the MU and I don't think you'll ever lose again against him.



PS: You should counterpick FD just if you know how to deal against Sheik there, otherwise it's a pain in the ***. Your platform game is good and I think your style is more indicated for stage with platforms.

 

[Tee ay eye]

thanks, overlord. your post was a good appraisal of the match.

how effective is CC against sheik's dash attack? i always feel like it'll knock me down.

however, i don't think i shield enough against that move anyway. it's so scary to me that i always try to swat it away or run away... which is bad in this context.

 

[Tee ay eye]

also, i would appreciate some critique of my set with falcoty

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe-fmz6MGy8#t=11m26s

 

[OverLord]

thanks, overlord. your post was a good appraisal of the match.

how effective is CC against sheik's dash attack? i always feel like it'll knock me down.

however, i don't think i shield enough against that move anyway. it's so scary to me that i always try to swat it away or run away... which is bad in this context.

It knocks you down sometimes, I can't say the exact percentage but overall you prefer to stay on the ground than being juggled everywhere, so knocked down is better than up in the air. You can also tech it if you're reactive enough.

Just try to avoid it with DD and whatever, but always be ready to press down whenever you see you can't shield in time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltPitN9kCIY&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqZe6_lXW-c&feature=related

These are two old matches of mine, there are some examples of crouched DashAttack here and there. Don't bother critique, they're one year old.




Also GGs to 69% Bair-tech against Falcoty xD

 

[Bing]

That Wall Tech looks like a Wall Jump....

 

[Metal Reeper]

^ If you hold up during your wall tech you will walk-tech-jump.
Every character can do it.

 

[Mahie]

OK guys, ever since I've picked up marth, which is pretty much the whole of 2011, I feel like all I'm losing to is Foxes. I really need to improve my Marth-Fox game. I have this video from a tournament last week-end and I'm in need of any advice you guys can think of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHshplwVLho

I'm really not sure how to handle fast/technical foxes. Such a pain.

 

[Wenbobular]

FD is pretty mediocre if you're not just whooping him with chaingrabs <_<
Battlefield is real nice for limiting Firefox angles when he's below and gives you more options when he gets you with upthrow upair instead of just eating 3 in a row and still being above Fox in the air (never a good thing)
At the very least it's something to consider until you're just eating stocks on FD for free off grabs

You get punished for some approaching Fairs and random fullhops (missing wavedashes or something?)

Also you don't really punish him very hard while he's getting you with like grab -> upair, aerial chains, and Bair while you're in bad spots above him

I think you're burning your double jump too soon when recovering

You're letting him back off the ledge too easily when he hasn't shown that he can ledgedash with invincibility, use Dtilt / Fair cheapness to the fullest your sword is super big

You like never edgeguard him and he doesn't shorten or sweetspot Firefox from below well enough to matter, so most of the times he's off stage you should be at least getting some 50/50 reads at worst but you kinda just let him back every time (mostly)

I think it just comes down to a pretty big discrepancy in punishment / edgeguarding / positioning after hits (especially game 1, game 2 - 3 maybe not as much but you really need to be whooping on him off grabs)

I'll let other Marths comment on neutral because I only dabble in Marth as like a quatrary but I think the other points are valid ... at the very least, you're very uncheap with your punishes and that should probably be the first thing you work on improving

 

[stelzig]

Mahie: I agree with you needing to use dtilt more - maybe overshoot them a bit if he keeps dashdancing - push him towards the edge. And I think you're a bit too defensive (even though you indeed did some weird approaching Fairs), like at 8:43 you have him in his shield by the edge, and you dashdance all the way into the center of the stage, giving him soo much space back... Even if you wanted to cover a roll or something you just spaced way too far, and you could just have stayed there and waited for him to do something. And it's not really even like dashdancing helps you at all if you're constantly outside of his range during the dashdance.


And you should probably start uptilting fox when he doublejumps over you, like he did a few times in the FD game (2:58 and again at 3:08 for instance)
There was a few times where he also doublejumped back while facing you, which looked alot like good openings to run in to me.

Edit: You should probably start implementing pivot grabs more... Though that would require you to again get a bit closer to fox when you dashdance in the first place, I really think you space too far away from him to pose any real threat and thus you let him control the stage.

What was the point of your shield at ~9:00? I suppose he could have turned around and then SH nair, but if you expected that you could have wavedashed away and punished instead of shielded while even turning your back on him - you seem a bit too afraid of fox.

 

[Bing]

Yeah a Couple of things I noticed were like;

1. You didnt do this too often, but I PERSONALLY think its a bad idea, but D-airing in the middle of the stage = dangerous. Missing the L-Cancel on said Dair = You might as well kiss that stock goodbye.

2. Like everyone said, grabs. I personally also dont grab enough, but im doing it more and more. Just Grab and up throw until you cant no more. Maybe F-throw or d-Throw towards the ledge. Also, Starting on Yoshi's I'd say is in your favour. You can up-throw him onto a platform and just u-tilt/tippered f-smash. Generally people ban yoshi's against Marth's though(Personal experience)

3.As everyone already pointed out, your edge guarding needs serious work. Basically, you never leave the stage when a Fox(Falco) is coming towards it via illusion or FireFox, Counter or D-tilt. One thing I like to do, Is grab the ledge and as there charging or coming towards me from a distance(not in tigh basically) I like to grab the ledge, jump out and Bair. Its probably not the best idea XD

4. Jump less, Basically you jump and attack if you see an opening, especially full hops(you really should avoid those altogether) Now you were doing a good job at staying on the ground for awhile, but the further he got ahead, the more you abandoned your stratedgy


Anywho, Im done for now XD

 

[Apasher]

Can someone point out what I'm doing wrong with my playstyle? I'm not very experienced. All I can see is that I do the same thing when I get up from the ledge.

Me vs Roki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVU5I__thgM (watch match 1 only)

 

[Archangel]

Can someone point out what I'm doing wrong with my playstyle? I'm not very experienced. All I can see is that I do the same thing when I get up from the ledge.

Me vs Roki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVU5I__thgM (watch match 1 only)

You need to play more. I suggest you put together a list of top Marth's vs Fox and watch every day. Look at what they do and then do it. Make sure you understand what you are doing though. That seems to be your biggest problem right now. You are trying to go threw the motions of being a marth without knowing the trajectories, %'s for combo/grab setups...etc. These are things you gotta know. Work on Speed because your gonna need to be as fast as possible to beat good fox's.

If I had to pick 1 thing to work on overall I would say Accuracy. I can point out several times when you just toss out moves. Uair, Fsmash...etc and Fox is 100miles away when you do it. Swinging your sword around won't work at the next stage of competition. You have to learn be more patient and accurate with your attacks. 2nd then I would say is your OOS game or lack of it. Without a OOS game you won't beat a good fox...falco..or probably nobody in the year 2011(soon to be 012). Shield Grab is still legit on occasion but once somebody figures out all you can do is Shield Grab and Roll they will bait you into doing it so they can take advantage of it.

Fsmash is a good move but abusing it and it becomes your worst move. If you get a vibe or sense someone is gonna approach try using other moves or just dashing the opposite direction. Ftilt, Dtilt, even a Jab can work better then risking a Fsmash and being open for a free hit. for example at around 40 seconds in to your video you Fsmash at nobody and then Fox Uthrows-Uair and that didn't need to happen. What helped me improve personally is I put limits on myself. In friendlies I allowed only a limited amount of Fsmashes for myself. Once I used that many I no longer Fsmashed at all.(limit was like 8 I think). This forced me to explore other attacks and be more careful or sparing with my Fsmashes. I also tried to cut the fat off my style. I suggest you really think about every move you make and what reason you are doing it. If you can't think of a reason don't use a movement. For the most part in serious matches I am Dash Dancing but that's pretty much it until I see an opportunity. Work on your reaction timing(seems like you have potential as a reaction based player) then wait for Fox to slip and **** him up.

See you in a year .

 

[KirbyKaze]

thanks, overlord. your post was a good appraisal of the match.

how effective is CC against sheik's dash attack? i always feel like it'll knock me down.

however, i don't think i shield enough against that move anyway. it's so scary to me that i always try to swat it away or run away... which is bad in this context.

True CC works up to like 50%. Fake CC works up to like 25%. Ground tech is a reasonable answer for it if you want to try it that way.

Shield, jump back, WD back, etc. are probably better answers to it, though.

 

[Bing]

Can someone point out what I'm doing wrong with my playstyle? I'm not very experienced. All I can see is that I do the same thing when I get up from the ledge.

Me vs Roki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bVU5I__thgM (watch match 1 only)

There is quite a bit you need to work on, but to start, work on the mechanics if anything. WaveDashing, short hoping, L-CANCELING(Especially dairs, your *** will get ***** by Fox's foot) Spacing etc. That fox was out of your league though, its somewhat obvious.

As Spam already pointed out, you also need to work on your choice of moves, you did throw out quite a few moves that didnt have a purpose(other then by chance hit) Now throwing out a fair isnt as bad as throwing out an f-smash. Fair's can be l-cancelled and are a hell of a lot faster, f-smash, can be punished big time. Also your grabs, its good to see you atleast try to grab, work on that. Also, try to work on shield grabbing, not just shield grabbing, your shield game in general

There is more, but its best to take this one step at a time. How often do you go to fests/tourney's?

 

[Apasher]

Not very often

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Took me a few games to warm up. I've got more matches from the same sets that I was more warmed up in, but anyway, have fun and don't hurt your wrists typing all the critique.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY7K4PHlrQ4

 

[Metal Reeper]

@ Chipmunk

Right off the bat I can tell that you get really antsy when someone is off stage. You could of gotten a gimp in the beggining but missed both times. You threw off Falcon and went for bair. It would be better to jab or ftilt in this situation. Wait until Falco jumps,illusions or firebirds. Then react.

Me and you share a similar bad habit. You always fair>Utilt. I do this a lot to. I think it would be better to fair>dash away if you think the fair is gonna be shielded. The fair>Utilt is awesome but It's not always worth it.
For instance at 0:48 you got for the fair>utilt and you eat 102% because of it...pretty much a 0 to death. I'm sure your DI and teching could of been better there. Not picking on you though <3

The first match 3rd stock you don't move around that much. Work on your movement, always be moving. Especially against Falco. My personal philosophy in this MU is to be very aggressive. It works for me at least.

1:43 you wavedash backwards and Falco misses his Nair. You should of just grabebd em but isntead ya full hop faired and missed

General stuff to work on:
You should try and get better at PSing. It's not that hard just takes some practice and timing.
You should be grabbing much more. This Falco was shielding a lot and you could of really capatalized on that.
You were using counter good. You should try using it abit more.
When you're playing keep thinking DI. Every time Falco shined ya you didn't go that far.
Your edgeguarding really needs work. Every time your opponent goes offstage you just throw out a Fsmash hoping it will hit. You can fair,ftilt,Dtilt and jab. Use all your tools. What's really good is to jab first, then try and react to where they land if you missed. You can usually cover 2 or more options this way. Work on being faster and stringing together those combos. (Mmm yummy)

 

[.Chipmunk.]

@ Chipmunk

Right off the bat I can tell that you get really antsy when someone is off stage. You could of gotten a gimp in the beggining but missed both times. You threw off Falcon and went for bair. It would be better to jab or ftilt in this situation. Wait until Falco jumps,illusions or firebirds. Then react.

Me and you share a similar bad habit. You always fair>Utilt. I do this a lot to. I think it would be better to fair>dash away if you think the fair is gonna be shielded. The fair>Utilt is awesome but It's not always worth it.
For instance at 0:48 you got for the fair>utilt and you eat 102% because of it...pretty much a 0 to death. I'm sure your DI and teching could of been better there. Not picking on you though <3

The first match 3rd stock you don't move around that much. Work on your movement, always be moving. Especially against Falco. My personal philosophy in this MU is to be very aggressive. It works for me at least.

1:43 you wavedash backwards and Falco misses his Nair. You should of just grabebd em but isntead ya full hop faired and missed

General stuff to work on:
You should try and get better at PSing. It's not that hard just takes some practice and timing.
You should be grabbing much more. This Falco was shielding a lot and you could of really capatalized on that.
You were using counter good. You should try using it abit more.
When you're playing keep thinking DI. Every time Falco shined ya you didn't go that far.
Your edgeguarding really needs work. Every time your opponent goes offstage you just throw out a Fsmash hoping it will hit. You can fair,ftilt,Dtilt and jab. Use all your tools. What's really good is to jab first, then try and react to where they land if you missed. You can usually cover 2 or more options this way. Work on being faster and stringing together those combos. (Mmm yummy)

I actually forget about grab, which is why I put it as my tag. To remind me that it's available and to use it more often but I still forget. My biggest issue with grabbing right now is my timing. I either short it or go long, or I get shined out of it. I'm way too scared of shine. I could care less about lasers, it's shine I don't want to get anywhere near.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Another set from the same afternoon against a different character/player

http://youtu.be/G1uF7HTjlBU
http://youtu.be/HQb8WgPL7UM