Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Archangel]

yeah, your neutral zone spacing needs work. you dash straight in trying to go balls deep on marth. Bad idea. Dash dance spacing right outside tipper fsmash so you can punish that ****ty lag.

also your fsmash edgeguard spacing was *i'm going to be blunt* terrible. just hold the ledge when he's in the bubble near the blastzone.

You look like an overall just better player than this guy so critiquing this friendly is a bit hard.

got it thanks. The Edge-guarding was a bit over the top at times. I'll drop the Fsmash habit though so I don't end up doing that in tournament or MM.

 

[Dart!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JG_QIPxR9Ig&feature=feedu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgxO1narlvU&feature=feedu

combo video time.

 

[Dart!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=n50BAOFAJOc#t=314s

check out this combo, i liked it :D

 

[.Chipmunk.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=n50BAOFAJOc#t=314s

check out this combo, i liked it :D

****.....................

 

[Ryuker]

Lost to a sheik last weekend. Any advice? (pal version)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJu5Vx_kv4g

I see a lot to improve:

• I was very sloppy with my edge guarding (allowed sheik to recover way to often)
• I f-smash way to early and risky in most cases (nerves I think). I should wait for their response more then punish using other options.
• DI too much into combo's
• roling out of habit or fear (same goes for shielding, spotdodge and f-smash)

There's more but these are the main ones I think. Anything missing?

 

[Wenbobular]

I feel like if you can't ledgedash with invincibility there's very little reason to get on the ledge if you're just trying to get them with ledgehop aerial or something <_<

At that point it's hardly even a mixup, they just kinda space aerials at roll range, what are you going to do

You should probably learn how to ledgedash / waveland on the edge with Marth anyways, his ledgehot aerials are meh at best and if your opponent doesn't have to worry about ledgedashing they can really just cover all your options pretty well

Vs Sheik in particular you should get better at shieldgrabbing tilts because I think when you get to that point the matchup gets a good bit easier when they can't just ghetto shield pressure you haha

Actually you seem to miss a lot of shieldgrabbing opportunities ... heh

Also a lot of pummeling after grab ... nerves ...?

 

[Niko45]

If they space aerials at your roll range then you waveland in place at the edge of the stage.

If they attack the ledge as soon as you are getting up you roll up past them.

 

[Ryuker]

I feel like if you can't ledgedash with invincibility there's very little reason to get on the ledge if you're just trying to get them with ledgehop aerial or something <_<

At that point it's hardly even a mixup, they just kinda space aerials at roll range, what are you going to do

You should probably learn how to ledgedash / waveland on the edge with Marth anyways, his ledgehot aerials are meh at best and if your opponent doesn't have to worry about ledgedashing they can really just cover all your options pretty well

So your saying I allow sheik to cover all options by not using ledgedash? Guess I gotta improve my ledgedash during invincibility then.

Vs Sheik in particular you should get better at shieldgrabbing tilts because I think when you get to that point the matchup gets a good bit easier when they can't just ghetto shield pressure you haha

Actually you seem to miss a lot of shieldgrabbing opportunities ... heh

Yeah I do lol. Just gotta the find the right spacing I guess.

Also a lot of pummeling after grab ... nerves ...?

Yeah. I"m considering what direction to throw them when I do that I think.

If they space aerials at your roll range then you waveland in place at the edge of the stage.

If they attack the ledge as soon as you are getting up you roll up past them.

Thanks. I don't know why I forget basic things like that during matches. This makes a lot of sense when you mention it but I guess I'm too distracted by other stuff during the match so I make other stupid decisions..

Thanks for the advice guys. Appreciate it.

 

[Niko45]

Does anyone know how many invuln frames Marth has if he wavelands perfectly from the ledge?

 

[OverLord]

Ebough to avoid a grab in my experience, but just name STRONG BAD to see what happens.

 

[Bing]

Im really finding that practice with spacie is making my marth quite a bit better. Playing Brawl has made my spacing and patience(Im a very aggressive player but Brawl has helped quite a bit... I guess it does have some use XD

 

[Ryuker]

To my better knowledge you don't gain invincibility when you airdodge to the ledge (just when you airdodge but you lose that invincibility when you touch the ground). So marth only has the ledge invincibility. Thats about 1.5/ 2 sec I think which is about 120 frames but I'm prob off by a bit. So take into account that you need to grab on let go, jump and rise above the stage it's between 70/100 frames of invincibility I think.

Just guessing here. Ask strongbad if you wanna be sure.

 

[Wenbobular]

Marth's is pretty bad, but it's good enough to get past the standard options that cover ledgehop aerials
It gets pretty whooped if they think you're going to ledgedash though, I don't think he's invincible all the way through unless you're really good at ledgedashing

 

[MasterShake]

I thought invincibility was 37 frames.

And you definitely don't lose it after touching the ground, otherwise doc's getup would suck.

 

[Wenbobular]

I just meant that Marth's DJ accelerates too slow for him to have a super **** ledgedash (*coughFoxcough*) so if you mess up by even a little then it becomes way less safe if they're aware of it

It's still an option that ever player should learn for characters with usable ledgedashes though

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

thats why you just ledgehop waveland in place to get your feet on the ground after they respect your space a little (you can use ledgehop fair to condition this if needed)

 

[MT_]

If you delay your fair enough, is it possible to avoid getting shield-grabbed? I find myself getting shield-grabbed for ledgehop fairing too much.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yes it is. Marth's fair has 7 frames of lag when lcanceled, so even though the shield stun value is unknown to me atm, we know there is some and thus marth is faster than a shield grab after a latest possible fair.


i guess thats pretty easy to know from experience too. A lot of marths do late aerial into dash away stuff to bait grabs.

 

[Strong Badam]

marths was like 10-13 depending on timing IIRC, been a while since I tested everyone

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Adam we broke our 11k and 10k post marks around the same time. SLOW DOWN I REMEMBER UR 9k POST

 

[Ryuker]

I thought invincibility was 37 frames.

And you definitely don't lose it after touching the ground, otherwise doc's getup would suck.

37 for ledge invincibility O.o I thought it was way more.

I mean you lose the airdodge invincibility when you touch the ground not the ledge invincibility.

 

[Niko45]

marths was like 10-13 depending on timing IIRC, been a while since I tested everyone

Are those all actionable frames or is that including frames where you're still lagging from the ledge dash?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

6 hitlag
6 stun
7 lcancel lag

latest fair is -1 on shield

 

[Kal]

I found this set from another tournament. It's grand finals so it actually ran two sets, but hopefully this can provide for more useful critique than the short set I posted earlier.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

things im noticing:

1- when edgeguarding, stand at the edge and wait. If falco does upb near to the edge just jump and smack him with fair.
2- when edgeguarding, choose hitting them back off the stage over hitting them up. I think think is pretty obvious, but you uair falco (maybe looking to combo?) and then he just lives.
3- if you hit falco out of his jump, follow him off stage since his only option is to upb. This also applies when you jab a sideb and when you counter an upb. They are out of options all you have to do is go down there and smack him.
4- you might want to look into wavedashing out of shield more. So far all i've seen you use to escape shield is challenging falco's pressure with aerials and rolling. Generally its better to stay on the ground since it gives you more options, and attacking from a disadvantage is not a reliable escape method.

theres a couple things to think about, only watch game 1. If i watch more i might post more.

 

[VASH]

hey guys i have been playing smash competively for about 5 months now and i feel that an outsiders perspective would really help me to make a jump in skill so i have two of my most recent sets recorded. one of these was recorded at The test your skills tournament in Houston on December 3rd i just saw the vid and although i won i looked like a complete ******. The second video was recorded at a round robin tournament. Thanks for looking guys!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aajCqT4_Ib4&feature=channel_video_title

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gxu6ndmIuw

 

[Niko45]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy_tdIAWwhs&feature=related

Anyone got tips against Ganon? I know I was way too conservative in my edgeguards but if you guys have specific "should have done this" advice I'd really appreciate it. General tips are cool too.

 

[Archangel]

Stand your ground. I mean that quite literally. You did well when you were tech chasing him to death. Spaced aerials were good but don't jump if you don't have too. Kage loves to swat Marth out of the air.(know from experience) ***** took my money....I want it back.

 

[MasterShake]

Imo, I think you should have stole the ledge more. He just kind of dropped on there a couple times. You can just get up and wait for him to land in his upB right? I think he depends on getting to that ledge so he can do his waveland shenanigans. Very impressive control you had, in what I consider an even mu.

 

[Mahie]

I tried to analyze it as well as I could, but I'm no expert in the match-up and definitely not as good a Marth as you, but who knows, I might have seen stuff you didn't think of.

1st Game

0:32 Make sure to angle your shield up and towards, Ganon can't really shieldstab from underneath when you're on the same level.

0:36 I think Kage teched towards you on purpose there, knowing that you'd be caught offguard and try something like a fair again. Uair or maybe Nair might have been better choices.

0:50 ~ 0:55 I feel like the whole thing happened because you decided to land right above him when he was idle. Like against Falcon, you gotta respect their anti-air game, it often gives them a free ticket through your spacing.

1st game : I think you got punished every time you tried to approach with a Nair, be it because he shieldgrabbed or because he just outranged you with stuff like Fair. You could try to mix it up, like , going in then back out to bait one of Ganon's slow hitboxes and only then going back in with the Nair. I can imagine that being hard against players like Kage though.


2nd game :
5:42 That roll was probably a technical mistake, too bad it happened there as it could have been the best moment to take a substancial lead.

6:00 I'm not sure what you were going for with the sideB, so I can't say much about it.

6:23 You should do that nair to poke his shield with a short hop instead of a full one. That way you can try to push him off the platform while staying safe, and if you actually manage to and he enters that falling animation, you can immediatly follow up and keep it going.

6:42 I think Kage jumping right away after getting hit with the sideB was really likely. I would have gone for a second sideB right off the bat, but I'm not actually sure whether he could have made it out or not. (SideB > SideB > Weak upB > Dair or something)

6:55 Going at a Ganon right from a platform when he's just waiting for you is a pretty bad idea imo.

Round 2 : You did much better and it seemed you had much more confidence going into that round. The first two stocks especially were impressing, and this time your nair approaches all got in because you overshoot them a bit more, and he couldn't jump back > Fair anymore ( when he tried he got hit).



Hope that helps somehow.

 

[Winston]

Waiting for him to land isn't usually a good idea because he's super heavy, and it gives him his jumps back.

Ideally you should spike his down B recovery if you are feeling confident, but if he's at highish percents then up Bing it is much easier to hit and almost as effective. At low/mid percents hitting it with an inside fair is effective because he's likely to survival DI, netting you a ken combo.

I don't know much about fighting Ganon and you were doing some pretty good stuff, but my main thoughts were:

-he wasn't worried enough about you grabbing him when he was shielding. A lot of the time he would miss an aerial, shield, and shieldgrab your attack. I'm not saying you should spam DD grab on his aerials like you would against a space animal, but I think you should threaten him with it.

-whenever you knock him into the air cleanly you just swing wildly and it'll pretty much combo him. Ganon is perhaps the character most prone to getting ken comboed in the game if you start hitting him in the air remotely near an edge. At mid-high percents you can switch to inside fairs which will either force him offstage, or lead to a spike.

-fair can be an effective move in the matchup if you space it against where his hitboxes will be, not where his body is. This tends to lead to repetitive walling patterns that Marth is better at taking advantage of than Ganon is, imo, as long as you are patient.

Uhh again I have no experience vs actual Ganon players so this could all be wrong.

 

[OverLord]

Spike that recovery.

 

[Niko45]

Yea I think I did the overshoot nair thing past his shield a bit too much and should have eventually just started grabbing.

This match really taught me that I need to start taking advantage of lightshielding and shield tilting because I don't do it and instead forfeit so much stage presence because I'm so scared of ganon hitting my shield at all.

Whenever he was in the center of the stage it was really hard to get anything going. When I had center stage it was really easy. So I think with some more confident shielding I can stand my ground more and not go up above him just to get up air'd.

And yea, the edgeguards. My nerves were bad and I even almost SD'd in the first game I just wasn't feeling confident in my offstage game at the time but you have to be in this MU.

@Winston in my experience Marth can't win a walling battle with ganon really but I don't play this MU much at all and maybe if I get more comfortable with his tricks and fair spacing I'll try it out.

thanks alot guys

 

[Fregadero]

Me and my friend just recorded this set last night:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBSbKI_cZUA

I've been looking into the competetive scene for about 5 months now. But I've never been to a tournament and the guy I play against in this vid is the only other smasher I've played who wasn't a casual player.

I'm still getting used to c-sticking aerials (I played casually for 9.5 years and used a the whole time) so I make a lot of stupid mistakes.

Any and all advice is appreciated. I'm sure theres a lot of stuff I do wrong, being that I've only really played one person.

 

[Winston]

@Winston in my experience Marth can't win a walling battle with ganon really but I don't play this MU much at all and maybe if I get more comfortable with his tricks and fair spacing I'll try it out.

Yea that was the point I was least sure of. It was based off watching Articanus play the matchup on the TO7 stream. Watching him play it again he doesn't actually fair that much, but he jumps a lot as if he's going to fair at that spacing. It seems like it pressure the Ganon into throwing out moves to wall, but he's not really at risk of getting hit.

Idk though. That one was just an idea.

http://www.twitch.tv/zydin/b/301722951

his set vs. Linguini starts at around 1 hour 7 minutes if you're interested

 

[Dart!]

Yo moon i'm so mad you didn't beat tang

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Yo moon i'm so mad you didn't beat tang

He was outplaying him the entire time

 

[Dart!]

Too much nair and not killing him when you got your hits
on the real imma say this again. I LOVE moon vids, your marth is so fresh imo.

 

[MasterShake]

Mitchell Tang is the best player in the world...

but thanks for making me smile like a giddy schoolgirl.

And black marth *****.

 

[Archangel]

he does. Red always means blood though.