Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[MaxThunder]

green marth is probably sick... or something...

 

[Fregadero]

Spoiler

Shameless repost for attention

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBSbKI_cZUA

Advice/tips plz

 

[Winston]

I only watched the first minute or so, so far...

-Dashdance grab the **** out of him. I mean, you did it sometimes, but his spacing on his approaching aerials so bad you should have gotten him every time. That's one of the fundamental aspects of the matchup.

-I don't think you should charge fsmash like you do to edgeguard illusions. He can see what you are committed to doing before he has to choose his option. Generally you should position yourself as close to the edge as possible and try to react to cover as many options as you can. jab/ftilt/dtilt/neutral B are generally better for covering illusions imo.

 

[Archangel]

Fun fact: When grounded Jab and Dtilt Protect your weakness(feet).

 

[Niko45]

So I got a chance to play Phish It for a while last night who is a really good DK/Ganon player a lot of people probably don't know about.

As far as Ganon goes, I seriously think bigger stages are just better so I may stay away from BF next time and try to get FD or DL64 or even PStadium. The more room I have to exploit my dash dance game the better I feel, and the less I will feel cornered by Ganon. I'll gladly sacrifice platform tippers and Ganon living a bit longer sometimes for the extra stage control advantage. It just felt like after I killed Kage and he came back down into the middle of BF with invince frames I just felt like I had literally nowhere to go almost automatically. He was calling my shield with grabs, if I go on platforms it's jut up airs, and if I try to ledge camp more often than not I'm just gonna get ***** coming up onto the stage.

I need to use lightshielding more but I need specific spots where it's really useful (not just vs Ganon). Can anyone help me out?

 

[Beat!]

I like FoD vs Ganon haha

Agreed about large stages being pretty good in general against him tho'

@lightshielding
Maybe against spacie shield pressure? I've yet to try/implement it myself, but I've heard decent things about it, and it seems pretty good in my head lol

 

[Niko45]

I don't really mind FoD in any matchups but I don't love it either. Only Sheik do I particularly not want to fight on it.

 

[Strong Badam]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqQYzsltzE0#t=1m45s I went Marth game 1. My only recorded Marth video of recent. Critique if you want but most of my improvement would come from a more solid neutral game and heavier punishes.

 

[Ørn]

The best thing you can do is stop using my tag!

Oh and if anyone wants to comment on ^ that match feel free to do so, but I think my biggest problem in the match was just not respecting DK's range and recovering like an idiot.

 

[Fregadero]

Thanks for the tips. Its hard to improve when you only play one other person. I'm gonna try to record more so I can get some more feedback.

 

[Smasher89]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAq2qYGaWqM#t=5m28s

I have a couple of questins for certain parts of that 3rd match there which I played Marth.

5.33: When I know he is going for a grab in that situation, which options are strong against that?

5.46 Anything I could have done better/differently to not get grabbed there?

5.57grab Which options do I have there to prevent getting grabbed?
And if theres other general tips it would be appriciated^^

 

[MasterShake]

Well I guess if you KNOW he's going to grab you could have just waveland -> rolled m2k style at 5.33

The other times idk because he probably would have done something else if you did something else. Maybe empty hop instead when you think you're going to miss an aerial and scared of him punishing?

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JqQYzsltzE0#t=1m45s I went Marth game 1. My only recorded Marth video of recent. Critique if you want but most of my improvement would come from a more solid neutral game and heavier punishes.

The oddest thing and I seriously don't mean this in a bad way but....you do a very good impersonation of Marth mains. If I didn't know you I'd have sworn you were a good Marth player having an off day/sandbagging.

When it comes to edge guarding Fox...he can be so lucky sometimes it makes me sick. trading or beating out the sword.....ewwww. Anyways if you are at any point unsure I've found the best thing to do is counter. However make sure your foot is past the ledge(makes it more difficult for fox to sweetspot out of the counter. or you can Dtilt, Ftilt, Jab, FF Fair at the ledge. Ken Edgeguarding still works also but it's sometimes more difficult to time(it's also easier to for the opponent to see coming and time a ledge tech.)


Best thing I can say is turn time on and play the waiting game. Especially when you have a lead against fox. He's got no choice but to come to you eventually so do 2 things.

1. Avoid being a stationary/vulnerable target. Dash dance camping tends to work out well.

2. The approach is inevitable on fox's part if you are tied/have the lead so you want to control how/when/what/why.(options). For example spacing F-airs, try to catch him with a retreating fair when he rides in on the N-airplane.

 

[Dart!]

I don't really mind FoD in any matchups but I don't love it either. Only Sheik do I particularly not want to fight on it.

ganon will lose to tech chasing. despite what kage may tell you.

 

[Archangel]

ganon will lose to tech chasing. despite what kage may tell you.

Kage only says it won't work because he doesn't want you to use it . I've used it before and it leads to rage-quits.

 

[Phoenix~Lament]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PozZ-qx1Xec

I'm not Hyprid but i'm curious how you guys would critique this match :D

 

[Archangel]

Match was legendary....Not sure how to advise him though....It's S2J.

I'd say get better at fighting S2J. He for the most part did everything ok except every once in awhile trying the same thing more than once or twice(refuses to say mix it up).

 

[Niko45]

His combos are really well organized and he did a great job of killing Falcon as efficiently as possible once he got hits.

In general his tech skill seems to be a bit lacking as I see a lot of players seemingly overwhelming him and running circles around him. Sorta uncharacteristic for a WC player (they all tend to be really techy) but it could just be really techy people making him look relatively slow. He does just miss fastfalls and stuff sometimes tho and while he tends to make good decisions and space well if given enough time it seems like he's a little slow or hesitant in coming up with those decisions/measuring his spacing and often that is too late when you're trying to keep up with a player like s2j so basically he needs to keep making good decisions but more instantaneously and work on his tech a bit to extend his punish game even further. Edgeguarding looks like it needs to be a bit less conservative as well (comes naturally with more experience I think).

 

[Niko45]

Yea that was the point I was least sure of. It was based off watching Articanus play the matchup on the TO7 stream. Watching him play it again he doesn't actually fair that much, but he jumps a lot as if he's going to fair at that spacing. It seems like it pressure the Ganon into throwing out moves to wall, but he's not really at risk of getting hit.

Idk though. That one was just an idea.

http://www.twitch.tv/zydin/b/301722951

his set vs. Linguini starts at around 1 hour 7 minutes if you're interested

So this is really late but I actually just got around to watching this and wow, impressive, really solid stuff. I think this really reinforces my theory about bigger stages (as the entire set is played on the ideal stages for the MU imo).

It wasn't so much walling (at least to me, the way I think of it) as much as just having the extra space means from total neutral position he can do big wavedashes and long dash dances back and forth safely outside of Ganon's range and this puts a lot of pressure on ganon to throw out moves prematurely to try to protect himself. By having so much space he really exploited Marth's mobility advantage on Ganon and the biggest thing was that it led to....more grabs. Lots and lots of grabs which is clearly the way to go in beating Ganon. Yea I feel pretty confident that this is just a better way to go in the future.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

From what I remember from watching those matches, Art plays Chaddd first, then Linguini right after. He beat Chaddd but lost to Linguini. I think his staple move in the MU was nair. Now again, I haven't seen it in a while, but I'm working my way around to uploading it to my youtube page so when it's the higher quality version we can talk about it then.

 

[PolishSmash]

Hey guys can I get some critiquing? Thanks (I don't L-cancel yet but I still need help on my Marth, I have trouble against a Falco that doesn't even use lasers :/ )

http://www.twitch.tv/robinhooodgfx/b/303723199

Skip to 10:40

 

[Metal Reeper]

Hey guys can I get some critiquing? Thanks (I don't L-cancel yet but I still need help on my Marth, I have trouble against a Falco that doesn't even use lasers :/ )

http://www.twitch.tv/robinhooodgfx/b/303723199

Skip to 10:40

You really need to follow up your grabs. Don't grab>wait a second>throw. It gives them a chance to DI. Just do it as fast as possible. You should be Uthrowing Falco. Unless you are throwing them off stage (better option IMO)
You also really need to work on your movement and trying to be unpredictable.
When you're edgeguarding Falco, just use Ftilt. It really will save you tons of trouble. Experiment with that.
Get better at following up attacks. Don't forget about those dash cancelled Dtilts and Fsmashes.
Try and Powershield those lasers, it's not that hard. And the sooner you practice it the faster you'll get better vs Falco. I love fighting Falco.\
You also need work on your shield grabs. This Falco wasn't spacing anything. You could of gotten TONS of more grabs in on him.
Around 14:40 you go over the ledge when recovering, giving the Falco a perfect change to Dsmash or Fsmash or whatever you to your death. You need to sweetspot that ledge so you don't go above it.
You also should REALLY practice wavedashing out of shield (WD OoS) This leads to even more grabs and follow up and gets you out of tons of situations. And if you WD correctly you can use it to space which is a great counter.
Oh yeah, don't forget about counter lol.
Hope this helps. Goodluck!

 

[PolishSmash]

You really need to follow up your grabs. Don't grab>wait a second>throw. It gives them a chance to DI. Just do it as fast as possible. You should be Uthrowing Falco. Unless you are throwing them off stage (better option IMO)
You also really need to work on your movement and trying to be unpredictable.
When you're edgeguarding Falco, just use Ftilt. It really will save you tons of trouble. Experiment with that.
Get better at following up attacks. Don't forget about those dash cancelled Dtilts and Fsmashes.
Try and Powershield those lasers, it's not that hard. And the sooner you practice it the faster you'll get better vs Falco. I love fighting Falco.\
You also need work on your shield grabs. This Falco wasn't spacing anything. You could of gotten TONS of more grabs in on him.
Around 14:40 you go over the ledge when recovering, giving the Falco a perfect change to Dsmash or Fsmash or whatever you to your death. You need to sweetspot that ledge so you don't go above it.
You also should REALLY practice wavedashing out of shield (WD OoS) This leads to even more grabs and follow up and gets you out of tons of situations. And if you WD correctly you can use it to space which is a great counter.
Oh yeah, don't forget about counter lol.
Hope this helps. Goodluck!

Thank you so much dude I appreciate your help

 

[Metal Reeper]

Anytime man. Always here for a fellow Marth. Practice and post more!

 

[MasterShake]

You also really need to work on your movement and trying to be unpredictable.

What does this mean?

 

[Metal Reeper]

Watch his video. He just stands around a lot.

 

[MasterShake]

Haha I'm guessing.

I mean tell me what you mean by that. That statement was too general for me, and I'm sure you can go more in depth than that.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Yeah you're right Shake, it was really general. Sorry.
I just ment he needs to dashdance more and waveland on platforms, constantly moving.

 

[Archangel]

 

[PolishSmash]

Watch his video. He just stands around a lot.

I know how to wavedash good but I noticed I kept dodging a lot and it looks ******** lol I think it's because I'm not fully confident with it. I mean sometimes I'll mess up and jump by accident. And the thing is, I practice it a lot I sit down and just wavedash for like 30 min. but I always mess up like once. How do the pro's always wavedash that consistently? Plus once my X button gets sweaty I mess up :/ I can't wavedash back and forth consistently at a high speed like the good players do is there something I'm missing?

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I know how to wavedash good but I noticed I kept dodging a lot and it looks ******** lol I think it's because I'm not fully confident with it. I mean sometimes I'll mess up and jump by accident. And the thing is, I practice it a lot I sit down and just wavedash for like 30 min. but I always mess up like once. How do the pro's always wavedash that consistently? Plus once my X button gets sweaty I mess up :/ I can't wavedash back and forth consistently at a high speed like the good players do is there something I'm missing?

Just keep practicing it. It's one thing to do it just cause you can, and another entirely because you are under pressure. Put yourself in those pressure situations and get used to doing it.

 

[Metal Reeper]

It honestly just takes practice. We all had to clock in a lot of practice. Nobody is different. It will all be second nature soon.

 

[PolishSmash]

I'm trying to start to learn L-cancelling and I'm already having trouble. I go to VS Mode and put Level 1 Falco against my Marth and I try to L-cancel my Fairs (both dj, SH, and when I hit him) and I don't even know if I'm doing it correctly. And there are so many different situations. Like I can hit him from a fast fall or without one. I can hit him from a full jump. This is so difficult I feel like giving up was everyone in this situation when they started to learn this technique? (I can't even imagine how hard this can be with characters like Fox, Falco who are fast fallers) How long does this take to get use to? And should I start with my main character (Marth) or another character? Thanks

I'm trying to practice L-cancel nair with Marth but I can't get it I have 1/4 speed and still cant do it what the F am I doing wrong, I'm so frustrated Every time I land my shield goes up. Am I pressing L too late or early? I'm only tapping it too.

 

[Metal Reeper]

You have to L cancel RIGHT before you touch the ground. Think of it as the same timing as teching. L cancelling is very hard but the most rewarding. Eventually it will all be second nature and you wont miss any. Do your attacks late with Marth. And when you L cancel, use those frames that u cancelled into a dash or something, make it useful, don't just stand around. It is very frustrating. But when you get through this you will be worlds better.

 

[Archangel]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdnfimB7wmE

I'm interested in hearing what the Pro's of this MU think.

 

[OverLord]

I recently played a Samus for a while.

After starting a bit "meh", I focused on what I could reliably do to make her helpless.
It took 1 hour and half to 3/4 stock her solidly.

 

[Ørn]

I also 2-stocked you pretty solidly at Beast 2, as I recall.

I don't think Marth/Samus is as bad as some people make it out to be. The way I see it, Marth has an easy time getting Samus up to 100%, but after that he has a lot of trouble KOing her. Samus has some pretty decent combos on Marth and actually KOs him fairly easily.

I think it's 55:45 in Marth's advantage or something like that.

I think some Marth mains have a tendency to believe Marth can just shut down a bunch of mid and low tiers with his range when in reality, it's not too hard to get close to Marth.

 

[PolishSmash]

You have to L cancel RIGHT before you touch the ground. Think of it as the same timing as teching. L cancelling is very hard but the most rewarding. Eventually it will all be second nature and you wont miss any. Do your attacks late with Marth. And when you L cancel, use those frames that u cancelled into a dash or something, make it useful, don't just stand around. It is very frustrating. But when you get through this you will be worlds better.

Ok thanks for the help I'll be practicing

 

[Niko45]

I also 2-stocked you pretty solidly at Beast 2, as I recall.

I don't think Marth/Samus is as bad as some people make it out to be. The way I see it, Marth has an easy time getting Samus up to 100%, but after that he has a lot of trouble KOing her. Samus has some pretty decent combos on Marth and actually KOs him fairly easily.

I think it's 55:45 in Marth's advantage or something like that.

I think some Marth mains have a tendency to believe Marth can just shut down a bunch of mid and low tiers with his range when in reality, it's not too hard to get close to Marth.

Yea I agree. Marth is by far the worst of say, the top 7 characters, at fighting the characters below. All he has on them is a range advantage (and in the case of something like Samus, that's only slight) plus a general mobility advantage on a lot of them. Lower tiers often harass him with projectiles which makes him uncomfortable or unable to fully protect himself with his sword and creates openings. Generally his trump card is just outspacing these characters forever and if they ever get in they can all toss him around for a good 40-50%. He's also a pretty easy edgeguard, himself, so it's basically a clock battle to not let them hang around forever and have opportunities to catch up.

Idk if 55:45 is accurate, maybe, but he definitely has to work for it.

 

[Ørn]

I agree.

I don't really like tossing match-up numbers around since they're fairly arbitrary, but what I meant to say was that I think Marth still has a small advantage in the match-up.