Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Mr Wizzrobe]

Don't counter, grab more, practice more. There were many times where you were just standing there and he just walked up and hit you. It also seems like you're just throwing out moves without any purpose. Use Dtilt to poke at him, dash-dance more, and work to get those grabs. Follow up better on the grabs too.

It just looked like you were playing uncomfortably, as if you were rusty or had cold hands or something.

However, your tech skill is nice and consistent and you WD out of shield and stuff, which is good. One of your recoveries wasn't sweetspotted to the ledge, so make sure you do that because I'm pretty sure you got punished for it.

Not a Marth main but that's my two cents.

 

[BeLia]

It just looked like you were playing uncomfortably, as if you were rusty or had cold hands or something.
.

I was uncomfortable because Lguy is really better than me, and falco's pressure is really tricky to get around, so i had trouble moving.. But usually, my tech skill is really solid and i've no trouble moving around, I don't mess up things that easily, but well I should work on that.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I was uncomfortable because Lguy is really better than me, and falco's pressure is really tricky to get around, so i had trouble moving.. But usually, my tech skill is really solid and i've no trouble moving around, I don't mess up things that easily, but well I should work on that.

Skill isn't really skill until it's put under pressure. The more you play, the more you'll get used to it and adapt and feel more comfortable so just keep playing. Learning to deal with pressure is the best because when you encounter that player that doesn't pressure and you have so much freedom you'll really wreck them.

 

[MT_]

Help me fight Sheik!! The reason the first match is on Brinstar is because we were trying a more liberal ruleset at this tournament and ended up striking (from like 20 stages) to Brinstar. Any ideas for edgeguarding Sheik when you're above 100%? I usually time a regular getup from the ledge with her up-b and that lets me punish pretty easily, but you can't time it as easily if you're over 100% damage.

@Tai there is a downsmash from the ledge somewhere in here, was totally thinking about you when I did that lol.

1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uwDJGAxCP4o
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1C1TRMIVpI
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCSJJmnOUsk
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=82YRDEHhKqk
5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGb9rM-KAlg

 

[Metal Reeper]

Uugh I am so sick of posting this answer. Im just gonna make it my ****ing signature I swear. When Sheik is recovering if you regular stand up from the ledge at the right time it covers the option of her grabbing ledge. It also puts you on stage ready to punish. If you want to hold the ledge and let her land on stage and then trying hitting her off again....Just do a Ledgehop>Dair. Sometimes you can Ledgehop>Dair>Dair for a spike. Or you should always be able to Ledgehop>Dair>Fsmash. % should not matter.

 

[Winston]

Did you read his post? >__> doesn't work if you're over 100, which is the case he's asking about.

In that case, stay on the ledge and try to react with a waveland the best you can. If you can't get an fsmash in the right direction, it's probably best to take a grab. When you are over 100 it may also be better to look for more aggressive offstage edgeguard opportunities.

Ledgehop dair kinda sucks... they have to be at a really high percent for it to be good, or else they can just CC, and sometimes platforms can mess with it, etc. Sometimes its the right choice, but not that often I think.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Did you read his post? >__> doesn't work if you're over 100, which is the case he's asking about.

In that case, stay on the ledge and try to react with a waveland the best you can. If you can't get an fsmash in the right direction, it's probably best to take a grab. When you are over 100 it may also be better to look for more aggressive offstage edgeguard opportunities.

Ledgehop dair kinda sucks... they have to be at a really high percent for it to be good, or else they can just CC, and sometimes platforms can mess with it, etc. Sometimes its the right choice, but not that often I think.

Can you not simply begin getting up from the ledge sooner?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

edit- this refers to belia's video from the last page...

i just watched thinking ur post said "this is a match of my falco" so i had tips about the falco... instead i guess ill just point out that the falco has a really simple pattern. If he has frame advantage he will attack, if he doesn't he will shield or laser. If he shields and cant attack oos he will roll into you immediately.

Watching the first game again, i can assume that the falco player wins more often than not. His tech skill is fairly good and while he has habits he kinda knows what works. On the other hand, you seem to want to play marth very mindlessly. Dont take that the wrong way, i simply mean that marth requires a bit of forethought as to your next action. Some characters can rely on self sufficient moves (fox's bair) but marth doesn't really have any. One thing i really noticed is you seem to have two modes; one mode you are attacking hard and another where you are defending hard. When you are aggressive you attack with lots of risk, often attempting overshooting dash attacks and fsmashing. On the other hand when you are defensive you stand in place and throw an attack. If they get inside you will shield and try to just run away until you are safe. If you attempt to break these molds and find middle ground strategies you should see some improvement.



edit2- on the edgeguarding sheik thing, i didnt read everything but ill just pop in and say this: if you are above 100% you can simply recognize this and start getting off earlier. Other than that, it is almost always better to roll from edge as marth since it gives you position to tip her landing that you cant unless you roll. This does leave the classic straight up recovery open, but you can still 1) keep her off the edge from there or 2) condition her to not do this.

 

[MT_]

I try getting off the ledge earlier when I'm at 100% but I guess I haven't tested it enough to know the exact timing. When below 100%, I always get up normally right when her explosion happens which is very easy to tell, because the animation before her explosion is very clear and distinct. I think the timing for getting up at around the same time for over 100% (not exactly sure, but guessing0 happens right around the time she actually inputs the up-B, which is many times harder (though of course not impossible) than it is to just do it when her explosion happens. Guess if I need more practice haha.

Any comments on the actual videos? It was a pretty good set I think.

 

[Winston]

Can you not simply begin getting up from the ledge sooner?

oh, maybe I'm being a moron. Idk actually. Can you? I feel like you can't do it on reaction to what she does, at least.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

oh, maybe I'm being a moron. Idk actually. Can you? I feel like you can't do it on reaction to what she does, at least.

It just seems like you could, Marth taking longer to get up would seem like a better edge guard just in case she wanted to try to grab it and not actually get back to the stage.

I think you could do it on reaction just fine. But I don't know the timing, maybe it would be something like as soon as she turns invisible or maybe partway though that extra little 'hop' she gets before going invisible. Someone would have to do some research and find that out.

 

[KingClubber]

INSANECRAZYGUY Trains a Marth, looking for advice for helping him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TpmMroLuqU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZbawn5Fg14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F08TYkib5xQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9oWw27xI7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiNZ9EzMD80

 

[OverLord]

That Falco is amazing.

 

[Mr Wizzrobe]

The Marth should probably start doing stuff.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

INSANECRAZYGUY Trains a Marth, looking for advice for helping him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TpmMroLuqU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZbawn5Fg14
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F08TYkib5xQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9oWw27xI7Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiNZ9EzMD80

At this point I think we are preaching fundamentals over MU advice. Get his tech skill down and his speed up. He should be moving more in general.

 

[Dart!]

My only serious advice is to play with someone better.

 

[Palpi]

Not really, he would just get ***** harder. He doesn't even seem to grasp the basics of marth...practice tech skill...watch what marths do at a very basic level etc..

 

[.Chipmunk.]

My only serious advice is to play with someone better.

First of all, nice new avatar. I'm liking it. Secondly, reading the description of the falco vid led me to believe that that guy was very drunk at the time of play. Also, while I validate playing with someone better, he still has some basic learning to do before stepping up in the world.

 

[Mahie]

Alright I'm in need of advice !

I'll post a few videos but here's one for now : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pGif1orswrc

 

[OverLord]

I saw that set man, I really think you should've won. It doesn't seem you are playing that well.

(anyway, I know what "cocu" means >__>)

 

[Mahie]

I had sleep johns and controller johns but overall Willy played better than me in that set. Anything gameplay related that I could correct ?

(And lol I didn't know you'd know. Sick told me he'd tell you, and I asked him not to explain until I did, but if you already know it's cool.)

 

[OverLord]

(cool xD)

Anyway, I don't really know what to tell, I think you should've waited more, Willy really liked to throw out jabs and FSmash to cover stuff instead of reacting, so you could've capitalize better on punishments if looked more for that stuff.

Overall I think you would've won on a better day.

 

[MasterShake]

Hey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wed1CvxhTc

please.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Hey

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3wed1CvxhTc

please.

Only watched the first stock so far, but you guys battled for bottom position. You absolutely ***** him when he was above you on the platform. Why you jumped and faired him off I'll never no. Next time try another uair or a nair to keep the combo going or to push him back to the center of the platform. You never want to be above any character as marth. Especially fox. He has alot of high damage/kill moves from that position, and I didn't see you trying to get back down off that platform and you lost your stock because of it. I'll edit this with more as I continue watching.

Looks like you did a pretty good job of realizing that after that first stock and adapting. Kudos on that. I'm starting to really be a fan of dtilt instead of jab or counter on battlefield when fox is below or above the stage. If he's above the stage and angles towards the sweetspot, a jab will usually miss, a counter will miss, but a dtilt will hit. If he doesnt go for the sweetspot, dtilting and holding away from the stage will give you that IASA so you can still punish his recovery (Or you can read it and not even dtilt). Underneath and close, fox is gonna go straight up every time. You can jab that, but dtilts offers the better knockback. I don't know the frame advantage of jab over dtilt though. (Strongbad where you at?) If the angle is somewhere around 45, you could probably get away with counter, but look for that dtilt **** on BF for sure.

Can't really say anything bad about DL. That was an awesome game. Looking like M2K out there minus all the gayness of camping. Good decisions, good approaches. All around good stuff. Only thing I toss is there is basic stuff like work on the edge guards, some of your approaches were predictable so add a little more mix up to it. There was something else I was gonna say but I can't think of it now. Ended up watching that game twice. Oh...I guess I can say get that SDI in on that uair from fox. It's hard to do, but well worth the effort to get it down. You did a much better job of staying underneath fox or on the same level. Onto RC.

Well, nevermind. I can't really comment on RC because I didn't see anything in the MU that stood out. It's all level specific, and I don't really know that stage so I'm going step away from that game.

 

[MasterShake]

Thanks for critiquing. I've really been meaning to work on SDI'ing that uair, no practice buddies though. Also I get REALLY scared whenever I'm above Fox + any character. Would like some ideas for that, I feel forced to double jump and dair and what not. Also think I'm going to stop jabbing...really not liking it atm even for interrupting stuff because they just cc it anyway. And I notice I still spend too much time in my shield, that certainly isn't threatening anybody. RC is lol, I actually had some confidence going in there after I saw Dart vs some guy, but then it fell apart right at the end. Alas. Though I promise next time I'll really have something worth watching.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Thanks for critiquing. I've really been meaning to work on SDI'ing that uair, no practice buddies though. Also I get REALLY scared whenever I'm above Fox + any character. Would like some ideas for that, I feel forced to double jump and dair and what not. Also think I'm going to stop jabbing...really not liking it atm even for interrupting stuff because they just cc it anyway. And I notice I still spend too much time in my shield, that certainly isn't threatening anybody. RC is lol, I actually had some confidence going in there after I saw Dart vs some guy, but then it fell apart right at the end. Alas. Though I promise next time I'll really have something worth watching.

I'm really not that terrified being above any character unless it's sheik, fox, or marth. Everybody else I'm relatively okay with. I tried doing that SDI that was explained earlier in the thread with the quarter moon, but I've had absolutely 0 success with it. I'm just gonna go back to trying to SDI up. I'm a big fan of jab, but alternatively if you don't want to use jab you can try a side b and see how that works out. It draws them closer so you can be punished out of it, but it's also never expected so you can get some cheeky grabs in. *shrug* Probably something best left for friendlies and out of tourney play.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

shouldnt you be pretty afraid of being above anyone? I mean, marth has a really bad time covering his *** (literally). One of marth's prime weaknesses is how ****ty he is at defending his feet.

 

[Niko45]

Air dodging to top platform is pretty good. Fastfalling with a nair is ok and sometimes catches.

Against certain characters (CF comes to mind) you may even want to use counter because they tend to go berzerk with up airs once they see you're in the air.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i had a paragraph of ideas for handling this, but i was typing it as an edit and then pressed alt+s and it was forever lost.

Basically what i was saying tho, is that you should take your time and force them to leave the ground in order to actually attack you. In the instant they attempt to hit you, you will have an opportunity to evade and get to the ground.

 

[MasterShake]

What are some things to look for when dealing with fox and how to handle them? Specifically when he's pulling platform shenanigans.

 

[Dart!]

What are some things to look for when dealing with fox and how to handle them? Specifically when he's pulling platform shenanigans.

condition him to run in with nair when you want him to, i.e. wavedash back after walking up to him and uptilt or grab him. then put him on a platform and **** his stock. on dreamland it takes a little bit more work but you can do it.

 

[Winston]

friendlieeees of meeee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwkmaOdCw60

I feel like I really suck at recovery/defense as marth, feel free to offer suggestions in thatregard (and in general)

 

[Zinth]

The other week there was a mid-sized tournament in Arkansas, ARK IV, at which I placed third in Melee singles (results and bracket). I'm pretty happy about this accomplishment, as I sent ihavespaceballs (I know the Samus matchup really well thanks to my crewmate Gravity, who is a pretty good Samus himself) and Ace (a good Falcon player who is apparently the original "John") to losers. Anyway, my sets against Lee Martin (known mostly for Brawl, but he is also a pretty good Melee player) in winner's finals and Chamberlin (a good, old school Fox from AR) in loser's finals were recorded, and I'd like to share them here for public scrutiny.

Zinth (Marth) vs. Lee Martin (Sheik/Fox)

Zinth (Marth) vs. Chamberlin (Fox)

It was really helpful for me to watch these, because I was really able to see the general things that I was doing incorrectly. I didn't feel as "on" during these sets as I did when I played ihavespaceballs and Ace (there was a fairly long break for me between winner's semis and winner's finals), but looking at my playing I also feel that I really didn't entirely know what I was doing in these matches. I feel that I didn't consistently apply good positional pressure, as I notice that I often unnecessarily backed off and gave my opponent space. I also felt that I moved around (particularly by dash dancing) more than was necessary, rather than maintaining good position to properly space punishes or baits. I also noticed that I often missed punish opportunities because I was doing this. Against Fox, I let myself get shine-spiked several times when I could easily have avoided them. Against Sheik, I attempted to recover onto the stage when Sheik was positioned near the ledge, which always got me punished and is generally not a good idea to do. I also choked on a lot of possible punishes (including either not going for a punish or choosing the wrong option to punish), often spot dodged unnecessarily, and made lots of other kinds of mistakes. So, as my disclaimer, I do not generally endorse the way I played these matches. Anyway, if anyone has any comments, I'd be happy to hear them, and hopefully others can learn from my mistakes (or things I did well).

 

[Niko45]

friendlieeees of meeee

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwkmaOdCw60

I feel like I really suck at recovery/defense as marth, feel free to offer suggestions in thatregard (and in general)

Recovering with Marth is all about reacting to what they are doing. There is sort of a pivotal moment when you need to either FF and up B, jump fair, air dodge, etc. lesser Marths tend to side B at this juncture a lot which takes all their options away and afterwards its too late.

What in regards to defense? Like retreat fairing and WD oos?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Idk i think sideb is a great recovery move if used correctly.

 

[Niko45]

Well yea, I'm saying bad Marth recovery is often tied to poor use of side B, not that side B is bad all together.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When i watch azen recover he just spams sideb to beat any attacks that come for him

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Well yea, I'm saying bad Marth recovery is often tied to poor use of side B, not that side B is bad all together.

Side b is ****. It slows your descent and is great for mixups, juggles, mindgames, resets, you can use it out of DD 100% of the time, you can use it out of run. It's a great move. The recovery portion of it only sucks when it's predicted. Then the marth is stalled in one place and the opponent doesn't have to toss out a move where the marth is going to be, but rather where he is. Makes it easier. Sometimes you just gotta get punished 1,000,000 times to figure out when to use it and how to use it properly.

 

[Winston]

^ I think that's pretty much what Niko was saying >__>

And yea I know improper side B is the leading cause of offstage Marth deaths in America, was just kinda hoping if anyone watched the match they could offer specific advice pertaining to the recovery situations in it.

And the defense thing, just like, when I start getting hit and am above them on a platform or something but not in a true combo. I usually get ***** anyway

 

[_eternal]

The other week there was a mid-sized tournament in Arkansas, ARK IV, at which I placed third in Melee singles (results and bracket). I'm pretty happy about this accomplishment, as I sent ihavespaceballs (I know the Samus matchup really well thanks to my crewmate Gravity, who is a pretty good Samus himself) and Ace (a good Falcon player who is apparently the original "John") to losers. Anyway, my sets against Lee Martin (known mostly for Brawl, but he is also a pretty good Melee player) in winner's finals and Chamberlin (a good, old school Fox from AR) in loser's finals were recorded, and I'd like to share them here for public scrutiny.

Zinth (Marth) vs. Lee Martin (Sheik/Fox)

Zinth (Marth) vs. Chamberlin (Fox)

It was really helpful for me to watch these, because I was really able to see the general things that I was doing incorrectly. I didn't feel as "on" during these sets as I did when I played ihavespaceballs and Ace (there was a fairly long break for me between winner's semis and winner's finals), but looking at my playing I also feel that I really didn't entirely know what I was doing in these matches. I feel that I didn't consistently apply good positional pressure, as I notice that I often unnecessarily backed off and gave my opponent space. I also felt that I moved around (particularly by dash dancing) more than was necessary, rather than maintaining good position to properly space punishes or baits. I also noticed that I often missed punish opportunities because I was doing this. Against Fox, I let myself get shine-spiked several times when I could easily have avoided them. Against Sheik, I attempted to recover onto the stage when Sheik was positioned near the ledge, which always got me punished and is generally not a good idea to do. I also choked on a lot of possible punishes (including either not going for a punish or choosing the wrong option to punish), often spot dodged unnecessarily, and made lots of other kinds of mistakes. So, as my disclaimer, I do not generally endorse the way I played these matches. Anyway, if anyone has any comments, I'd be happy to hear them, and hopefully others can learn from my mistakes (or things I did well).

Just pointing out that the first link seems to be broken