Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
thats because the link brings you to
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg***9xS814
because of the stupid SWF censors
replace *** with "fck" and it'll work.
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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.
- Thread starter P. O. F.
- Start date
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg***9xS814
because of the stupid SWF censors
replace *** with "fck" and it'll work.
_eternal
Smash Apprentice
ohhh lol, that makes sense. I knew the asterisks were the problem but I forgot about the ***ing censors.
Zinth
Smash Apprentice
Hmm, it seems that "***" ("f" + "c" + "K"), which appears in the url, gets caught by the language filter, so the url is getting censored. I don't know how to post a direct link, but it should be easy enough to find the video in the broken link from the video in the working link. They really need to relax the language filter -- this is absurd.
EDIT: Looks like I was beaten to the punch. Thanks, Tai.
Winston
Smash Master
Well they don't need to relax it really; they just have to make it not apply in between url tags, right? haha
But yeah that's very silly.
As for the vids, I did watch them, but I don't know what to say for general stuff exactly because you pointed out a ton of stuff yourself. Besides tactical mistakes (many of which I assume were due to tourament/nerves/not being on point/etc.), my main thought was just that you should be a little more proactive with your dashdance when they aren't approaching you. I rarely saw you present them with threats when you were both dashdancing, which gives them more freedom to control the engagements. Of course you always want them to shffl an aerial at your dashdance so you can dd back grab it, but they don't have any incentive to do so unless they think you might hit them with a run forward dtilt or dash attack/fsmash.
A couple times you did a pretty halfhearted shffl aerial when he was really far away; when you jump you should be close enough so the aerial has a purpose. Mixing up how much you move forward with your nairs is a reasonable way to get hits (in place/overshot). sh late fair / sh early fair/ sh waveland is another set of options for aerial mixups.
But yeah that's very silly.
As for the vids, I did watch them, but I don't know what to say for general stuff exactly because you pointed out a ton of stuff yourself. Besides tactical mistakes (many of which I assume were due to tourament/nerves/not being on point/etc.), my main thought was just that you should be a little more proactive with your dashdance when they aren't approaching you. I rarely saw you present them with threats when you were both dashdancing, which gives them more freedom to control the engagements. Of course you always want them to shffl an aerial at your dashdance so you can dd back grab it, but they don't have any incentive to do so unless they think you might hit them with a run forward dtilt or dash attack/fsmash.
A couple times you did a pretty halfhearted shffl aerial when he was really far away; when you jump you should be close enough so the aerial has a purpose. Mixing up how much you move forward with your nairs is a reasonable way to get hits (in place/overshot). sh late fair / sh early fair/ sh waveland is another set of options for aerial mixups.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Zinth, your self-critique is pretty much what I got from watching you.
I think you're using defensive aerials that are good for "not getting hit" but in exchange you don't really capitalize on a lot of favourable positions as well as you could. I mean, obviously some of them could be substituted with generic stuff like fair, but I think you're pretty good about getting your opponent blocking and you can do more with that than just fair their shield...
I think you have to use Marth's intimidation more effectively; when blocking, a lot of people wait for Marth to swing his sword to respond to timings (because there's no way they can beat it) so empty jump > grab / u-tilt (if you call a jump oos) / etc. are actually really good with him and apply a lot of pressure to low range characters.
Learn how to position yourself under a platform to cover more options with tipped u-tilt immediately after throwing. It's an invaluable skill and you dropped some punishes because of it.
.
I think you're using defensive aerials that are good for "not getting hit" but in exchange you don't really capitalize on a lot of favourable positions as well as you could. I mean, obviously some of them could be substituted with generic stuff like fair, but I think you're pretty good about getting your opponent blocking and you can do more with that than just fair their shield...
I think you have to use Marth's intimidation more effectively; when blocking, a lot of people wait for Marth to swing his sword to respond to timings (because there's no way they can beat it) so empty jump > grab / u-tilt (if you call a jump oos) / etc. are actually really good with him and apply a lot of pressure to low range characters.
Learn how to position yourself under a platform to cover more options with tipped u-tilt immediately after throwing. It's an invaluable skill and you dropped some punishes because of it.
.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEakndRO6Sc
I really am having hard time against peach I just suck at the matchup. I have tried fox, falco, cf and now marth too. When I play fox/falco I eat one dsmash and thats a stock. I am too rusty with cf to play him so thats out of the question at the moment and with marth I always get to last stock high percent but I end up losing. If anyone has some tips or see something I could be doing better or shouldn't be doing at all, please give your advice
I really am having hard time against peach I just suck at the matchup. I have tried fox, falco, cf and now marth too. When I play fox/falco I eat one dsmash and thats a stock. I am too rusty with cf to play him so thats out of the question at the moment and with marth I always get to last stock high percent but I end up losing. If anyone has some tips or see something I could be doing better or shouldn't be doing at all, please give your advice
stelzig
Smash Lord
Not gonna critique too much as I think there's quite alot of people more qualified than me, but you should probably start realising how long peaches airdodge actually takes and how simple it is to punish. You let him airdodge past you a few times (and iirc you even attacked after he airdodged, but missed), and one time you decided to punish it with a Fair instead of an easy fsmash KO as if you had to hit him before he could protect himself again. Waiting for the airdodge when peach has no options in general works pretty well in my experience (I haven't played against peach that much though). And even if he doesn't airdodge you usually don't lose your advantage. You also ran into dsmash a few times so perhaps the same comment there, heh. Try playing more reactive, and know how much time you have to punish I guess?
I also think you use your jump on recovering a bit too quickly (a spacie thing? - want to stay above the stage) and get edgeguarded a bit too often so you should probably work on your recovery vs peach. wtf at your recovery @ 11:40 for instance... In addition to this btw, you seem perfectly capable of grabbing turnips on-stage so why don't you try to do that off-stage?
Someone shoot me down if i'm wrong on all of this, i'd be happy to learn something
I also think you use your jump on recovering a bit too quickly (a spacie thing? - want to stay above the stage) and get edgeguarded a bit too often so you should probably work on your recovery vs peach. wtf at your recovery @ 11:40 for instance... In addition to this btw, you seem perfectly capable of grabbing turnips on-stage so why don't you try to do that off-stage?
Someone shoot me down if i'm wrong on all of this, i'd be happy to learn something
Winston
Smash Master
^ Just to add a little to that, often times you can shffl uair when Peach is trying to get down and even if she airdodges, you recover way earlier and get to do whatever you want.
Dart!
Smash Master
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YBjeiTCZX3w&feature=feedu_more (winners finals)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBNJN_bteSo&feature=feedu (grand finals)
critique?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBNJN_bteSo&feature=feedu (grand finals)
critique?
Thank you for the advices Stelzig have to keep those in mind next time I face a peach . I will probably try to get the matchup working for me with fox though. It is my best character I just get ***** by couple of characters at the moment. But I will definitely keep marth in my repertory so help was appreciated
. I will probably try to get the matchup working for me with fox though. It is my best character I just get ***** by couple of characters at the moment. But I will definitely keep marth in my repertory so help was appreciated
stelzig
Smash Lord
By all means the airdodge thing should be very welcome to fox as well -> upsmash kills :D
It's probably also easier to scare paju into airdodging onto the stage or down to the ground with fox since he's faster and his aerials are more scary.
At least i'd think so, I hardly ever play fox and the only matchup I think i'm ok at with him is ice climbers
It's probably also easier to scare paju into airdodging onto the stage or down to the ground with fox since he's faster and his aerials are more scary.
At least i'd think so, I hardly ever play fox and the only matchup I think i'm ok at with him is ice climbers
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
vs sheik I'd say you could add a little more late fair spacing midstage. Like late fair about 1.5 wavedashes away. Generally fair spacing right outside diagonal needle range. You like to go close with your spacing, which you're really good at so I'd keep it up, but I think you could benefit from adding a little distance spacing to your game. Basically the empty hop late fair mindgames but to cover run up grab/dash attack. Hover back with your jump if they start their approach and lean in if they move back. If you pay attention to the times you got hit, you'd notice they are almost all at the 1.5-2 wavedash range.
Watch TAI matches (hes very, very good at it) if you don't know what I mean. His recent Okami sets are great material. You are spectacular once you get control, which you generally get through forcing with a wavedash dtilt or an aggressive late fair/nair, and I think your dtilts are the best of any Marth, so you do a lot of things right. Good ****.
Archangel
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF_4ZNl8Lr4
Make fun of my Marth/Mario.
Game 1 was more or less me trying to play serious but he was 100% determined to sandbag with C.Falcon......*******! Anyways it ended up being a good set even though he refused to play his Luigi.
Make fun of my Marth/Mario.
Game 1 was more or less me trying to play serious but he was 100% determined to sandbag with C.Falcon......*******! Anyways it ended up being a good set even though he refused to play his Luigi.
Archangel
Smash Hero
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Wow this **** is straight up embarrassing...lemme have it. I've reread Niko's post a thousand times since though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsWNxbyzPl0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsWNxbyzPl0
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
<333 come to arizona. you are by far me and taj's favorite person on the marth boards, and probably our favorite person on smashboards that we don't know personally<333
omg dajuan's pills were absolutely ruining you
don't let them do that LOL. i'll just type what comes to mind and separate it into parts
pills: OMG HIT THE PILLS. just fair them like a homo like kevin did... in other words, don't let him control you with pills. be careful about how you work around his pills. i'd imagine avoiding the pills (retreating or jumping) is a useful mixup too when he tries to get inside your sword's rhythm, but IMO, you should rely mostly on swiping the pills, and i think fair does the job best because it doesn't clink with the pills like all of marth's other moves (i.e. jab and d-tilt), plus it's probably marth's best zoning move against doc anyway.
also, a trick that kevin told me is that if you DO get hit by doc's pills, smash DI backwards so they can't get in as easily.
if you always try to dashdance/shield/run away from the pills, you're just giving doc so much control over your movement. marth is good against doc because of his ability to space with his sword, not because of his ability to bait and juke the mother****er. try to be safe while defending against his pills, but still remember to keep an eye out for what he's doing to get in. i'd imagine dajuan has some tricks up his sleeve for countering your counters. so just hit them very carefully. retreat when it feels unsafe to swipe, but try to stand your ground.
punishing/juggling/anti-airs:
don't do horizontal throws on doc unless you're trying to get him offstage. f-throw/d-throw to dash attack and f-smash will not work on him unless he messes up royally, which is not something you should rely on. juggles are way more reliable, and that's why you should u-throw (in my opinion. i know there was some huge drama about u-throw against floaties on the marth boards back in the day).
when you're jugging doc (and most other mid/low tiers) and trying to keep him in the air, i personally think tipper f-air is a better move than u-air. i don't know what the general consensus is, but my ability to anti-air floaty characters has gotten at least twice as good once i ditched u-air as my go-to move and replaced it with f-air (this is tried and true against taj's luigi, doc, and samus).
fair hits pretty high (keep that in mind); it's not as high as u-air, but i think it has a few qualities that make it better overall (against certain characters, probably).
the tip is a little weaker, but it still sends them up, so i find that landing it usually has nicer setups than u-air. also, f-air is 11 frames faster than u-air, so you have more time to follow up. on top of that, if you miss, you can just do another move (probably another f-air, or a u-air). also, since u-air is slower/longer, he has a bigger time window in which he can punish a missed u-air.
now i'm going to talk about the main reason why i think fair is amazing: you get to utilize marth's horizontal spacing while still being able to anti-air effectively. i think that when doc is coming down, he's probably going to try to use a move like d-air, and i think fair is a lot nicer because you get to abuse marth's horizontal range. positioning yourself directly under him (a la u-air) makes it a lot easier for him to hit you, because if you miss, he's right on your vertical plane, and he can go in for the hit. also, i think when marth does his u-air, his hand reaches out further, so it's easier for your opponent to hit your hand.
plus, if you use u-air, he probably has a little bit more freedom to challenge you on either side of your body. using f-air allows you to abuse marth's horizontal range on top of its pretty-good vertical range, and it makes it so that he HAS to try to challenge you from the front if he wants to challenge you; he doesn't get to pick whether he wants to hit you from the front or the back.
u-air still has a place, but i think f-air should be your go-to move. i think u-air should be used only when you have more confidence in your ability to connect the hit, or if he's DIRECTLY above you and you don't have time to space to make the f-air worth it.
ground game: stop swinging your sword so much. when you use one thing too much, your opponent will be able to deal with it VERY effectively. that's why you can't shut people down by dashdancing exclusively or by sword spacing exclusively. marth's attacks are always good (spacing/pressure-wise) when they hit at the tip, but this doesn't mean that you'll automatically get a strong punish in for a tipped f-air. the main problem is, though, that they don't always hit, and they don't always hit at the tip. if you whiff, he can go in and whoop that ***. if you don't tip, he's gonna crouch cancel and whoop that ***, and if you only swing your sword, he will be able to focus all of his energy into making those small positional changes that ensure you whiffing or mis-spacing.
what can you do, then? move around a little more with wavedashes and dashdances, swing your sword less, be mindful of what he can do in each spacing, and observe what he does in each spacing. doc HAS to try to get inside, so you just have to figure out how he's trying to do that and counter. if he's trying to muscle his way in with crouch cancels and stuff, retreat a little bit more and/or do retreating tipper f-airs or d-airs to deny his crouch cancel. if he's waiting outside your sword range to punish your lag, you can either move around to confuse his spacing or you can call his waits and push forward little by little with late fairs and properly spaced d-tilts.
try your hardest not to do punishable whiffs (some whiffs are good, but that's a different story), and try to not miss your tippers.
edgeguarding/recovery: i'm gonna be honest; i wasn't paying attention to your edgeguarding. all i noticed was that his pills ruined your edgeguarding, too. as i mentioned earlier, you can fair them to eliminate the threat if he's close. however, if you hit doc far out, and he throws a pill at you to try to deny the edgehog from you, do the marth killer edgehog. the pill will hit your shield and you'll fall onto the ledge. then you'll have the edge, the pill will be out of the way, and then you can have your way with doc.
also, it would be useful to learn doc's recovery and figure out when you do and do not have to give him respect. i'm not too familiar with it myself, but i do know that there are some instances where doc is just BEGGING to get edgeguarded, and it would help you a lot to learn and recognize what these situations are.
you only got caped by him once, but marth CANNOT vertically sweetspot against doc's cape. to recover safely against doc's cape, you have to recover a LIIIITTTTLE bit high, but further away (horizontally) from the edge. that way, you're out of his cape range, and once his cape misses, you can float down and grab the edge.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
holy hell, did i seriously write this?
Winston
Smash Master
DI down + away doesn't get them out of fair stuff? Uair works beautifully for me, but I don't play against floaties regularly, so I'll give fair-emphasis a try next time I get the chance.
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
No, I wrote it, forgot to log out of your account on your computer.
Dart!
Smash Master
think about your moves before you do them. marth gives too many chars free hits because of CC
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
u-air feels a lot harder to land for me, and i also feel like i get punished more for missing u-air
for reasons outlined in the wall of text
for reasons outlined in the wall of text
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Took me a year to read Tai's post. I'm gonna start mixing in fairs because I'm too stubborn not to use uair. What are some different ways to get out of over-committing a short hop? Every time I just do an aerial and get *****.
Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
^ just do empty short hops. Marth's empty shorthop is actually dangerous....If you can react in time if they come within range you can do a late fair and you are safe. They are waiting for you to land with an aerial, so wait a few times, see what happens.
Tee ay eye
Smash Hero
imagine how long it took me to write it
Palpi
Smash Hero
If you shorthop for an approach and you realize that you will get punished when you land, you can just double jump backwards.
Niko45
Smash Master
Some quick thoughts for Moon:
Seemed like you knew what to do but were a bit anxious in doing it. You had a lot of sourspot dtilts which are killers. Turn sourspot dtilts into retreat fairs and you'll be fine there.
Jab pills. Don't fair them unless he's pilled from so far that he can actually catch up to the pill and attack behind it. He doesn't have frame advantage at all if you just clank your jab with his pills. You don't NEED a hitbox to go through the pills to protect yourself there so don't commit to the air as he waits outside your range because that's exactly what he wants.
Once you get him in the air you jump straight into dairs a couple of times. Again, anxious to punish once you see you've pushed an advantage. Even on offense think defense. All you have to do is not get hit by dair there so just focus on dair completely. You can also not rush into the air at all and wait to see what he does and you'll probably find him just floating down helplessly into up tilts and fsmashes (going in the opposite direction).
You never did anything with your throws. It looked like fthrow dash attack would have worked fine but if you were scared to try that you should at least up throw to get him really playing defense. Fthrow/dthrow to nothing just won't get it done. You're good at grabbing him though which is the harder part so if you just remember to up throw him some and get good at exploiting him from underneath you'll improve vastly at the MU.
Focus on that minute or so that you had on battlefield where you were really doing well because that was largely textbook for beating Doc.
Seemed like you knew what to do but were a bit anxious in doing it. You had a lot of sourspot dtilts which are killers. Turn sourspot dtilts into retreat fairs and you'll be fine there.
Jab pills. Don't fair them unless he's pilled from so far that he can actually catch up to the pill and attack behind it. He doesn't have frame advantage at all if you just clank your jab with his pills. You don't NEED a hitbox to go through the pills to protect yourself there so don't commit to the air as he waits outside your range because that's exactly what he wants.
Once you get him in the air you jump straight into dairs a couple of times. Again, anxious to punish once you see you've pushed an advantage. Even on offense think defense. All you have to do is not get hit by dair there so just focus on dair completely. You can also not rush into the air at all and wait to see what he does and you'll probably find him just floating down helplessly into up tilts and fsmashes (going in the opposite direction).
You never did anything with your throws. It looked like fthrow dash attack would have worked fine but if you were scared to try that you should at least up throw to get him really playing defense. Fthrow/dthrow to nothing just won't get it done. You're good at grabbing him though which is the harder part so if you just remember to up throw him some and get good at exploiting him from underneath you'll improve vastly at the MU.
Focus on that minute or so that you had on battlefield where you were really doing well because that was largely textbook for beating Doc.
mers
Smash Ace
Moon:
You looked mad nervous. Your other videos from that tourney are sick as hell, but not so much that one. Were nerves an issue that game?
You looked mad nervous. Your other videos from that tourney are sick as hell, but not so much that one. Were nerves an issue that game?
Archangel
Smash Hero
I don't think it's nerves as much at is knowing your going to have difficulty and then realizing your right....then kinda half giving up.
Winston
Smash Master
Or waveland! Underused, imo
Archangel
Smash Hero
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF_4ZNl8Lr4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwQHmQNQjdo
why can falcon kill me sometimes....I don't get it. also Link is a *** and so is doc. -_-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwQHmQNQjdo
why can falcon kill me sometimes....I don't get it. also Link is a *** and so is doc. -_-
t-iceman
Smash Journeyman
Ya i commented on the second video, but to reiterate you approach way to much (like in almost every neutral state you would always run in and do something) and as far as falcon goes, falcon marth is really hard as marth when the falcon knows what he's doing. Again you have to realize that falcon only has 2 good approaches, nair and grab (the latter being when you don't space an approach well). You need to bait him into doing something stupid because you get way less off grabs than falcon and falcon is faster than you. This MU would be 60-40 imo if falcons recovery wasn't such trash. But since it is you have to abuse that, aka get him off the edge, kill him dead. Analyzing the video, there are several points at which decisions to get ahead were available to you. At like 0:38 on the first video you went for a nair that ended up being reverse when you should have just f smashed. At 0:49 you went for a dair when you should have just f smashed. At 1:05 you misspaced a neutral b edgeguard (guess what's harder to mess up, give you a hint starts with an f ends in smash). At 1:17 you should have daired seeing as you had the edge and he was below you (properly timed nair would also work). At 1:28 there was no reason to wavedash back. At 2:05 you got a d throw and he MISSED THE JUMP SWEETSPOT (aka falcon should be dead) you threw out an fsmash which isn't wrong but you can get a lot more edgeguards if you wait for them to make a mistake (if you had just turned around and crouched you would have covered more options safely). what i like to do when i know falcon is sweetspotting the jump, go out and fair him. In this situation probably timed down tilt would have worked best. At 2:43 see just fsmash. At 4:54 you sort of gave him the edge, idk. Im pretty sure there is more but i don't have the time to post on this whole match. Basically just practice and you should get better.
Palpi
Smash Hero
You try to be too fancy on too many edgeguards. Just poke him away 1,000 times if you have to. Stop going for dair spike if you aren't 100% sure it will work. The first 3 times you tried it, you missed.
at 4:35 you fair him and then do nothing, this was another easy kill with a ftilt or dtilt, or even an fsmash.
Really, just work on edgeguarding, im not sure how serious your matches were, just...more simple
at 4:35 you fair him and then do nothing, this was another easy kill with a ftilt or dtilt, or even an fsmash.
Really, just work on edgeguarding, im not sure how serious your matches were, just...more simple
Archangel
Smash Hero
Thanks both I'll keep it in mind. To be clear he's a friend of mine and we agreed to split so it wasn't extremely serious. However admittedly I have trouble figuring out the mechanics of Falcon. He doesn't even play falcon except vs me in friendlies. He's not good with the Falcon combos at all so he just kinda space camps....knowing this I tend to charge in simply because of inpatients....I can see this is the main problem. That and I tried for some creative/fancy attacks that didn't work out too well.You try to be too fancy on too many edgeguards. Just poke him away 1,000 times if you have to. Stop going for dair spike if you aren't 100% sure it will work. The first 3 times you tried it, you missed.
at 4:35 you fair him and then do nothing, this was another easy kill with a ftilt or dtilt, or even an fsmash.
Really, just work on edgeguarding, im not sure how serious your matches were, just...more simple
The Mario match I thought was funny though
MasterShake
Smash Lord
Ha, nerves are always an issue for me, though I've got them down pretty well now. The disparity in skill level just makes it look like that. I think my biggest problem, and maybe for other marths as well, is just flat out lack of character control. When I watch a video of Tai or Dart, they are very smooth and have little wasted movement, or at least, perceived by me they do. My next goal is to iron that out and become mad consistent, and maybe some of my decision making mistakes will correct themselves.
.Chipmunk.
Smash Ace
I started listening to dubsteb when I play. You may not be a fan of it, but the constant beat of the music reminds me to keep my Marth moving. Apart from that, the only thing I really think about during the match is constant spacing. It doesn't always work, but combos are becoming much more natural for me so I don't really have to think about what move I'm gonna toss out. Getting hit is a different story. I'm still working on that east coast DI and stuff.
I used to get mad nervous, but that's when I rarely won a match. Now that I'm winning pretty consistently (Not all the time, just consistently), nerves aren't so much an issue anymore. The music helps with that too.
Oh, also. No, I don't listen to music during most matches, just when I'm training.
Dart!
Smash Master
thanks for the shoutout, i can back you up here. nerves ****ing wreck. I almost got 4 stocked by kage because of that. You got that *** next tourney ^_^
Dart!
Smash Master
thanks, i checked his last set vs okami. not baddddd
TheCrimsonBlur
Smash Master
I totally want to but I don't see you guys hosting anything till like....that Nicknyte thing half a year away. Host anything, and I mean anything, and I'll come with a car full of Socal people.
(Its ****ing dumb that DEVASTATION doesn't carry Melee anymore. what the hell)
(great post on Doc btw. I didn't know about that up-B recovery trick. gotta try that out)
<3
t-iceman
Smash Journeyman
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RyZaeyHTuU&feature=feedu
I throw out too many nairs and sheild grab at stupid situations lol. Other than that, Im happy with this
EDIT: if you haven't already SUBSCRIBE TO MELEEPACWEST!! all the homies are on it
I throw out too many nairs and sheild grab at stupid situations lol. Other than that, Im happy with this
EDIT: if you haven't already SUBSCRIBE TO MELEEPACWEST!! all the homies are on it
Archangel
Smash Hero
you and I seemed to have made alot of the same mistakes in this MU lol. Fsmashing at full shields...why do we do it?
