Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Bob Money]

Hey Austin, Great Marth

For the shiek Matchup I didn't see you bait much at all.
Everytime Iori shielded it looked like you felt you had pressure him.
In this match up what you want to you is get shiek to jump before you. I know, sounds easier said than done but I'll show what I mean.

From neutral position on the stage, you notice shiek isn't jumping, this is where you might want to throw some dtilts that assert your position and see how the shiek reacts to it.

Also I felt you didn't try to CC grab enough or Wavedash out of shield or even roll. Even though rolling isn;t a great option you didn't make Iori aware of that possibility.

Another great way to bait is empty short hops against a shiek that is shielding.

Also fairing the air when shiek is shielding might look pretty but it doesn't do much. I understand if you're covering the WD toward you, but down tilt or even grab is much better. If you had just empty hopped or dtilted against his shield you could have caught his jump out of shield without already being in another fair. Overall you are not letting him dig himself a grave, you are giving him scripted shield pressure and all he has to do is wait till your done. Make him afraid of the grab after you down tilt. If the grab misses so what, kudos for him but you're letting him shield way too much.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfRv9j91VhE
Iori never or hardly jab grabs, so watch out for that and you can get some CC grabs and "free" rolls.

Also use your shield offensively to bait side steps and stop your dash dances to catch rolls. He was rolling a bowl of blunts around you. You dash dance sometimes without reacting. you dont have to dash dance to catch rolls (I know you know) you can turn around and gran or fsmash or down air etc. you are giving up so much stage every time you dash dance when he's shielding at the ledge. Sometimes the greatest shield pressure is no shield pressure. It makes them sometimes have to make a move before you.

Also why;d you agree to go back to brinstar?

Overall good marth, happy to see marths doing well.

http://bobmoneydbr.blogspot.com/2009/08/day-1-is-this-how-it-starts.html

Read that it might help you =) Watch that vid of ken vs CJ. that is how you want to play vs shiek .

 

[Diakonos]

I just played some of the best sets of my life vs Sion. I had this disgusting dair ledgecancel dair to reverse up+b combo on Yoshi's (the platforms are so close together you can do whateverr you liiike).

Does anyone know how much capture cards cost?

 

[TemPesT-]

i think 50-80 for an average one.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Sion's Falco is pretty sick. I wish I could see more of him.

 

[Archangel]

Ah, my bad. Sorry, I'm kinda coming out of the blue here, and with it, ignorance.

Have there been any good new Marth combo videos lately? I haven't frequented these boards in ages, but I'd love to see how Marth is changing before Apex.

I will presume my Marth project soon. I just had to get my computer fixed. If you have any footage go to The Marth Mains where you at thread and link them.

TEASER
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvaUdgfotnk



APEX! We need Marth's to have a stong showing at Apex.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZchnFuAVzrE

 

[Diakonos]

I'm going to make the other high tiers bleed at Apex. Or at least, that's the kind of confidence Kage wants to instill in me.

That teaser video was cool =D

 

[booshk]

manuel give a good clip of your marth to spam arrows ! u better be in that vid man.

 

[Diakonos]

Sion's Falco got REALLY good right after BCPM. I have quite a bit of trouble with it. We played 3 serious sets and he beat me in 2 (BARELY), and in the third set we went to last match to SUDDEN DEATH.

 

[booshk]

Sion's Falco got REALLY good right after BCPM. I have quite a bit of trouble with it. We played 3 serious sets and he beat me in 2 (BARELY), and in the third set we went to last match to SUDDEN DEATH.

LOL shift of topics.
dang i wanna play you juys.
maybe he's getting used to your play style manuel... : O : O
were u marth though? or just advanced slobs
uh ohhh omg maybe the veteran top 3 will be changed :o


btw should you even be playing right now man? don't u have a final to study for? LOL
mines on thurs, lets play lots after man! go to sions or wherever
mini smashfest for richmond ppl and u guys at my house if u want lolol

 

[Dynamism?]

lol thanks manuel T_T( im going to destroy your falco next time we play )

edit: dont you live really far james?! i live in richmond

LOL it was your marth he fought? hahah

Yeah I'm 4/5 hours from richmond... o.O

I just played some of the best sets of my life vs Sion.

Niiiice

Sion's Falco is pretty sick. I wish I could see more of him.

Oh, you will.

Sion's Falco got REALLY good right after BCPM. I have quite a bit of trouble with it. We played 3 serious sets and he beat me in 2 (BARELY), and in the third set we went to last match to SUDDEN DEATH.

LOL nice. Step it up!

LOL shift of topics.
dang i wanna play you juys.
maybe he's getting used to your play style manuel... : O : O
were u marth though? or just advanced slobs
uh ohhh omg maybe the veteran top 3 will be changed :o


btw should you even be playing right now man? don't u have a final to study for? LOL
mines on thurs, lets play lots after man! go to sions or wherever
mini smashfest for richmond ppl and u guys at my house if u want lolol

LOL at the Vancouver smash>life modo. You guys play so much, gives me a headache.

The top 3 will just turn into top 6, all order indecisive. word?

 

[booshk]

yes it was my marth. it was weird, because i felt like i was playing really well against his fox and marth. but then he pulled out his falco and i had troubles i was like WTF!
he was playing like he was only a bit worse than eric.. LOL IT WAS SO WEIRD. w.e i will destroy it next time

 

[I.B]

I got some vids of me playing at a recent local which featured Raynex, Unknown522, and KirbyKaze. I have 2 Bo5 sets I would be grateful to get critique on.

http://www.justin.tv/magicsauc3/b/265209274

http://www.justin.tv/magicsauc3/b/265207255

I realize there's a lot of nerves/pressure related issues, but I welcome any and all types of advice.

 

[Bob Money]

Solid Marth IB, def one of 2-3 best in the world.

Vs Fox I never see you jab much to stop approaches/control some space. Trust your reactions more. If you play just outside his run up Nair range (about 1/4 of FD, I know that seems like a long range but it really isn't considering how fast fox is)(M2k vs Jman FD) You can control the tempo the match better. In this range fox will most likely do 1 of 4 things. Dash dance,run up or full jump sex kick, or laser.
This is where you trust your reactions. Remember if you play at a certain range vs fox you are in control of his offensive options. When you recognize what option he has chosen you capitalize . I've said it before Dash dancing isn't overrated, whats underrated is standing in the same place with marth and not moving.. Don't give up stage for no reason. Ken was really great at this, making a wall of space(not just aerials and moves). you said you were kinda nervous , so i dunno how you really play vs fox. Once you;ve established a strong ground game then you can get into your opponents head a bit (kinda like how did vs KK) but rule 1 vs fox stop his approaches consistently dont just avoid his approaches.

You are very good against shiek and have the match up down , only critique i can give is use more wavedash to down tilt, its less predictable than dash to down tilt , just something nice to mix in. Kirby Kaze is very good, and I suspect he could even give m2k's marth a run for his money.

 

[I.B]

thanks a ****load for the advice, Bob$

you said you were kinda nervous , so i dunno how you really play vs fox.

my combo game was on point for the most part, but my nerves got to me with other things (mainly edgeguarding and push vs pull)

 

[Dart!]

I got some vids of me playing at a recent local which featured Raynex, Unknown522, and KirbyKaze. I have 2 Bo5 sets I would be grateful to get critique on.

http://www.justin.tv/magicsauc3/b/265209274

http://www.justin.tv/magicsauc3/b/265207255

I realize there's a lot of nerves/pressure related issues, but I welcome any and all types of advice.

IMO way too many hope they hit Fsmashes, but you kept it close because you knew the matchups well other than that. Good stuff and Bob money's spot on with the critique.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought u had that set vs raynex for sure.

 

[Niko45]

IB is the ****, as is Canada smash. It seemed to be a trend that you would play exceptionally well early in matches, gain solid leads and then have them come back on you due to a nervous recovery or just approaching a little anxiously at times. Marth to me seems particularly prone to comebacks due to not having like a spacies bair type of move that can just end high % stocks universally. Marth needs to do a lot of work even in the 140+ range to finish stocks, so I think its a matter of just staying focused and doing what you did to build that lead straight through to the finish. When they are at very high % you can use Marth's jab more freely bc they won't be able to CC and it creates some opportunities by knocking them down or out of position.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I love marth's jab, its so good.

 

[Dart!]

I love marth's jab, its so good.

Til it get CC rested on yoshis story at 15 percent and i die >.<

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

lol josh you suck at jabbing bro

 

[Dart!]

No, i just got careless XD the only stage i have trouble beating anthonys puff on is Pokestadium. but then again that seems to be my worst neutral. thank god it isn't anymore.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

How? Its so good vs puff and peach and sheik and other floaties. Plus you can mindgame them cause they don't know if you're pulling out a spacie or not lol

 

[Archangel]

No, i just got careless XD the only stage i have trouble beating anthonys puff on is Pokestadium. but then again that seems to be my worst neutral. thank god it isn't anymore.

Thats odd as ****! I also seem to struggle a bit with a friend of mine's puff who's name is also anthony.............wth?

How? Its so good vs puff and peach and sheik and other floaties. Plus you can mindgame them cause they don't know if you're pulling out a spacie or not lol

I never thought about that. I'll have to try that out this week during my semi-tournament I'm having at my house lol. It's a tournament but no money is on the line only pride .


aaaanyway! This is all of my marth in a nutshell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2d0iQmGZ3ek#t=8m07s

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Bob$'s critique is so on point. His comment about Arc's indecisiveness when his opponent puts up their shield was genius. Really good observation.

IB, you have a fantastic Marth. One of the best. I suspect you will do very well in APEX. Some simple observations I made were that you got really impatient, especially when you desperately wanted kills, messed up some simple edgeguards, and have a bad habit of pummeling off grabs at 0% (sounds small, but since Marth's grabs are so devastating, letting someone mash out of your grab is a huge missed opportunity). Oh and you probably already know this but cover the airdodge recovery option with jab or shieldbreaker; don't go for dair or fsmash. A lot of these problems are probably nerves so I recommend just keeping at it and putting yourself in as many high pressure matches as possible.

I learned a lot from your matches so I hope this does a little to return the favor.

 

[I.B]

thanks a ****-ton man, i appreciate it.

glad to see i've helped

also, thanks to Niko as well!

 

[Niko45]

Give me some tips, sorry these are friendlies:

Vs. Sheik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8tLlHsMX1M

Vs. Doc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhhHqC3hX0A

Vs. Marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMjy0wbFXVk

I think I need help particularly with what I'm doing wrong getting up from the ledge/when sheik is on the ledge. Any help with that is much appreciated. I'm also hoping maybe Bob Money could shed some light on fighting doc. I kinda just suck against Marth in general, so even though I'm doing well here, if you pick up on something I should or shouldn't be doing let me know.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

nice icon niko.

are they friendlies or seriouslies?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Niko, you jump too much (vs Sheik). Don't SH -> delayed fair or nair in place so much. Sheik can get in on you. She's not Doc or some character who can't beat you at the spacing game. In that matchup, you need to be low to the ground. You want Sheik above you, not level with or below you. Don't waveland on platforms so much. Only do that as a last resort escape, not randomly in a neutral position. You also got grabbed/hit a lot when you were just staying in one place doing a move. Like, occasionally you do an aerial -> some ground move, and Sheik would just jump over your ground move and slap or dair you. Dash dance and grab more, then uthrow to put her above you where she's in huge trouble. Whenever you're in close quarters with Sheik, you'd do retreating fair or something. The problem is that it takes a little bit for Marth to jump, and during that small window of jumping and your aerial not being out, you'd get hit. It's much better to simply dash behind Sheik and grab her or run away even. It only takes a few frames to get out of her range that way.

 

[Bob Money]

Give me some tips, sorry these are friendlies:

Vs. Sheik: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8tLlHsMX1M

Vs. Doc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhhHqC3hX0A

Vs. Marth: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YMjy0wbFXVk

I think I need help particularly with what I'm doing wrong getting up from the ledge/when sheik is on the ledge. Any help with that is much appreciated. I'm also hoping maybe Bob Money could shed some light on fighting doc. I kinda just suck against Marth in general, so even though I'm doing well here, if you pick up on something I should or shouldn't be doing let me know.

I'd be happy to tell you a bit about the doc matchup. In fact I just played and beat Shr0omed yesterday. He's arguably the best doc with HMW. there will be vids of that tourney up soon along with a set with SS I had which i won as well.

good marth niko
First thing you're doing kinda bad is throwing out "scared" down tilts. remember if your trying to stop the dash attack all you have to do is shield. It takes less unneeded reaction speed to just block. I know you know this already but it's easy to loose sight on simple things during the match. you have basic premise of the match-up down. But you are not letting the doc dig himself the grave. (you're attacking before him)Remember how safe you are in front of doc. . I know this is going to sound like my usual advice..but
Trust your reactions be calm, you're character can outspace/and OUT prioritze his characters moves. Dogysamich also made a good point, don;t go for offensive grabs(grabs that arn't guaranteed). its totally letting doc get back into the game. if he side steps or rolls all your spacing is gone. Just keep him out the entire game and you will win dont worry about how your going to kill him. Understand docs options and trust your move set. If you mis space, no worries(concentrate on getting out of danger ) just work on establishing that space again. also dont dash dash in front of doc in general, its not going to do much. if he's at higher percent hes going to take less risks coming in, this is where you can "spam" more moves because if it trades..he's off the stage. but at lower percent you want to take what he gives you and understand how he deals with being staredown.

Marth dittos are bleh, just be as stingy as possible with laggy moves and punish. marth dittos with people with semi equal skill can go either way dramatically depending on who guesses or punishes right. thats not good advice but i think watching some m2k vs ken marth dittos will help you.

Vs. shiek just wave land on. dont roll up on the ledge.remember to refresh your invincibility has often as you can so the explosion doesnt harm you. That'll make it easy easy. also if shiek lands on the edge of stage just do a nair so the back part of it hits her off again.
I hope this helps. Tell Tommy I said Hi =).

 

[Niko45]

Thanks so much guys.

I think you're both kinda getting at the same major point, and thats that my neutral position spacing isn't putting any/enough pressure on my opponent, and they're picking me apart for it. I'm doing aerials in place from a distance where the sheik has no worries and can prepare a well timed approach around them to get in on me. Other times I'm rushing sheik from too far away and getting sidestepped/hammered for that.

Against doc, Bob, those scared dtilts are for doc's wavedash in, not dash attack. If he wavedashes in right in front of me successfully he can really hurt me with CCing or shielding. I also have to worry in general about him just coming at me with a SH fair, which is also a major problem, so between doc's ground approach and legitimate SH aerial threat, I don't have a move that covers all of his options. At this point in my game I'm struggling to believe I can really hope to sit back and wall doc out. Maybe my reactions need to be better. But I do see that I need to not be dtilting right in front of doc like that. His wavedash from that point puts him right in front of me, so I need to me recognizing that I need to adjust my spacing there instead of being scared spamming lag.

Bob I'm surprised you feel marth can just wall doc out. I understand Marth's range puts pressure on doc and forces him to approach, but don't you think doc has pretty decent approaching options, considering marth's vulnerability to CC tactics? It's not like ICs, where there is no aerial threat really and dtilt is just stuffing them completely. I'd be curious as to what you think. I'll definitely say hi to Tommy haha, and I guess I could just watch you vs Shroomed when it goes up and then all my questions will be answered anyway.

Edit: Thanks Sveet, ATHF fan? and these are most definitely seriouslies.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Who isn't an ATHF fan?

 

[Bob Money]

Thanks so much guys.

I think you're both kinda getting at the same major point, and thats that my neutral position spacing isn't putting any/enough pressure on my opponent, and they're picking me apart for it. I'm doing aerials in place from a distance where the sheik has no worries and can prepare a well timed approach around them to get in on me. Other times I'm rushing sheik from too far away and getting sidestepped/hammered for that.

Against doc, Bob, those scared dtilts are for doc's wavedash in, not dash attack. If he wavedashes in right in front of me successfully he can really hurt me with CCing or shielding. I also have to worry in general about him just coming at me with a SH fair, which is also a major problem, so between doc's ground approach and legitimate SH aerial threat, I don't have a move that covers all of his options. At this point in my game I'm struggling to believe I can really hope to sit back and wall doc out. Maybe my reactions need to be better. But I do see that I need to not be dtilting right in front of doc like that. His wavedash from that point puts him right in front of me, so I need to me recognizing that I need to adjust my spacing there instead of being scared spamming lag.

Bob I'm surprised you feel marth can just wall doc out. I understand Marth's range puts pressure on doc and forces him to approach, but don't you think doc has pretty decent approaching options, considering marth's vulnerability to CC tactics? It's not like ICs, where there is no aerial threat really and dtilt is just stuffing them completely. I'd be curious as to what you think. I'll definitely say hi to Tommy haha, and I guess I could just watch you vs Shroomed when it goes up and then all my questions will be answered anyway.

Edit: Thanks Sveet, ATHF fan? and these are most definitely seriouslies.

Yeah my advice wasn't as well thought as it should have been .
Well you make a good point , doc can have decent approaches but if he's going to wavedash in alot(and not learn from getting punished) then you spam down tilt. in those matches you can use some movements to bait that option out like jump back empty jump or fair then react to his next move. also if you stand closer like jab range docs wavedash will overshoot your position so right there you can stuff that option. as soon as doc shields. the key is useing your jab to make him block or side step. he has to respect it. also if duck in front of doc they sometimes expect a down tilt. also doing a missed down tilt isnt that bad but take notice to when the doc starts to look out for it. this is where you close the distance a bit with a forward b or jab or wavedash in down tilt etc. also try standing in different places and see which distance gives that doc the most trouble. im sorry i made it sound like A+B=C that was a shallow assessment overall. but overall dont be afraid to stand/pressure in different spots in front of doc during the match to mix up the scenerios. of course the match up isnt 100-0 but as you get better in the matchup you will understand that the risk reward for doc is really bad for doc. the main thing is not to get beat with same doc approach two or 3x. adjust your spacing through out the match covering this docs preferred approaches adapt etc. of course if the doc is just reading your spacing all the time, tough luck but no one is perfect. and if he's catching you alot on stuff, (since they are freindlies) ask him why he did that move etc. because it will help you catch your habits etc. About aerial approaches just jab them or jump back fair (i saw you do this ). if you dont have the time to jab just block and punish or wavedash out of shield.
sometimes analyzing vids doesn;t do as much justice as simply asking the person your playing with some questions. I'd have to say the latter has made me a much a better player overall. i only see habits and some things over the course of 2-3 matches where they see habits over the course of months etc. Hope this was clearer. good luck!

 

[Niko45]

Thanks Bob. Looking forward to your vids.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I love stuffing approaches with jab. It's amazing range for a 4 frame move.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Too bad it doesn't do anything except a couple percent. I used to think it frustated opponents, but then my opponents stopped getting frustrated.

 

[CA420]

Well this is my first SSBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUaH_PeCUk
Ref code: CA42

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

don't play lvl 9 computer

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well this is my first SSBM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tUaH_PeCUk
Ref code: CA42

The title of this thread is a little misleading. We're critiquing Marths who post matches here. Combo videos are subject to a different kind of critique (editing, music selection, etc.). Those should be posted here.

 

[CA420]

don't play lvl 9 computer

Then what do I fight?
Also i didnt have any other smash videos, this isn't to show off

 

[Diakonos]

IB scored a 6.0