Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[AustinRC]

"This one time I four stocked Jman's Fox with Jigglypuff... In a friendly."

 

[Diakonos]

Didn't i four stock you in a mm and crew battle? pretty sure i know how to combo

didn't you get 2 stocked by andale's falco on FD LOL

Sveet, how do you have the balls to talk about some other player in defense of yourself, considering we're talking about multiple four-stocks? I'm actually puzzled.

Also, man, I really have no idea about the Marth community. Introduction? Hey guys, I'm Diakonos. I play Marth and powershielding and ledgecancelling are oh so good.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sveet, how do you have the balls to talk about some other player in defense of yourself, considering we're talking about multiple four-stocks? I'm actually puzzled.

Also, man, I really have no idea about the Marth community. Introduction? Hey guys, I'm Diakonos. I play Marth and powershielding and ledgecancelling are oh so good.

Welcome. Thanks for being a douchebag when me and dart are friends and were ****ing with each other.

ima **** dart next time i see him (YOU COMING NEXT WEEK!?)

 

[Diakonos]

Ah, my bad. Sorry, I'm kinda coming out of the blue here, and with it, ignorance.

Have there been any good new Marth combo videos lately? I haven't frequented these boards in ages, but I'd love to see how Marth is changing before Apex.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

No combo vids except spam arrows'.

don't you play falco and marth?

 

[Diakonos]

No combo vids except spam arrows'.

don't you play falco and marth?

My Falco sucks harder than antimatter.

I play Marth, Fox, and Sheik, in that order. I think my Sheik is starting to become decent. I won a recent tournament using only Fox and Sheik. I think they are good secondaries to have.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Cool Cool... I've gone back to fox 85%... marth is still too difficult for me to control the whole stage with, fox is easy mode as long as you press the right buttons.

 

[Diakonos]

Cool Cool... I've gone back to fox 85%... marth is still too difficult for me to control the whole stage with, fox is easy mode as long as you press the right buttons.

I feel like you have to play every match-up very different as Marth against very good people.

Defensive Marth can be pretty okay against Falco if you take advantage of every mistake. But Defensive Marth gets me ***** against Fox. I feel like with Fox I can just space moves and do nairs and uptilts and bairs and win against most people. I don't have to switch it up as much.

Fox is good against Fox if you play the matchup a lot, he's good against Marth, Sheik, and decent against Flaco. He does well against Jiggs.

Marth is okay at dittos; it's hard to develop a set style in Marth dittos. He is about even with Sheik, not always wonderful against Fox, but he's pretty good against Falco. Marth vs. Jiggs is hard. Falcon is easier with Fox for me too.

I know my marth is my best, but it's so hard not to get nervous with him. Do all of you guys c-stick, by chance?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

yeah csticking is the ****.

I like fox because you can be safely aggressive a LOT better than you can with marth, and im semi-impatient and don't like dash dance camping. at least with fox i can win camp offs with lasers.

 

[Niko45]

I feel like you have to play every match-up very different as Marth against very good people.

I definitely agree.

Marth has much more challenging matchups overall than fox does. I just use Marth anyway.

 

[MT_]

Reference code: MTgetraped

Helppp. Lots of friendlies. All versus falco (except the one labeled fox).

1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0j6bld-JqI
2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka5HW7_gaSk
3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqfD9rv2bK8
4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKkjR_F01gM
5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmmlGoilmFs
6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xd0wcvXGzok
7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKhGPgqXk6k
8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20cn_6zflQ4
9 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SD7t49tPS0M
10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssf1s27cdKs
11 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPEhsx4jPUM
12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxXsjiAY7HU
13 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyf7P-zirVo
14 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrBZwwgwzIQ
15 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKIjrMlO2Hg (fox)
16 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTAXMCdao4g
17 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-Mz2JeaS14

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

only watched game 1. all i can say is do something other than grab out of shield, don't approach recklessly even if it seems you can get a hit, and do something other than ledgehop nair.

 

[Diakonos]

MTgetraped

I agree with Sveet.

It seems like you're being really predictable. (Maybe he has played you a lot and knows how to **** your crap?) He also kept drawing attacks out of you. It worked like a charm. You would go for the shieldgrab, you would go for the fair, and he punished beautifully.

Space moves better out of shield.

 

[MT_]

So... any ideas on getting out of shield pressure? The guy I'm playing against is significantly better than me, but 60-70% of the other matches aren't as one-sided as the first one.

I feel like I have the most trouble dealing with shield pressure and returning from the edge. Other than attempting a shield grab, I'll try to attack out of shield or something but usually by that time he's already inside so much that I don't have the right spacing for a fair or uair or anything. I also try counter OOS but have limited success with that.

So I'm thinking that I can only roll out of shield pressure, but he's waiting for it and follows me with a laser and I'm back inside my shield getting hit. Am I supposed to hit him out of his shield pressure? How can I avoid getting in that situation in the first place.

Also from the edge, I do find myself ledgehop nairing a lot. Guess I should try just rolling in or just anything else?

Can you guys watch some of the other games? There are other parts of my game I wish could be critiqued (like gimping game, edgeguarding, etc). I'll work on increasing the variety of my moves which should help my predictability, but there should be other things I can improve on too.

 

[ComboTurtle]

that falco took a dump on your head... hes pretty good.

 

[TemPesT-]

you did some really dumb counter oos bs a few times, but what was worse is that you did it like after he was done pressuring you... idk just think a little more, don't just plan to do something then do it lol.

edit: watching a match on fd and he just shined you out of your chain grab, i don't know a ton about marth, but i'm pretty sure you can do a dash pivot grab to avoid that shine, and then regrab him. and i believe the % that spacey's can begin to shine out of the chain grab is like 30ish, so once they get up there if you plan to go for a grab again, just make sure you try to pivot. otherwise do an uptilt or w/e.

these are entertaining for some reason... fun falco to watch, fun marth to watch. GG's u two

 

[Ndot]

The shine out of chain grab starts at 20-21%.

 

[Dart!]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUGp4IyZbkU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qHUzxbHmbE

Latest stuff, i'd say i play way better than this usually but i'd like some critique anyway

 

[AceDudeyeah]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUGp4IyZbkU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qHUzxbHmbE

Latest stuff, i'd say i play way better than this usually but i'd like some critique anyway

1st match:
You sure like drop-through up-airs a lot.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

So... any ideas on getting out of shield pressure? The guy I'm playing against is significantly better than me, but 60-70% of the other matches aren't as one-sided as the first one.

I feel like I have the most trouble dealing with shield pressure and returning from the edge. Other than attempting a shield grab, I'll try to attack out of shield or something but usually by that time he's already inside so much that I don't have the right spacing for a fair or uair or anything. I also try counter OOS but have limited success with that.

So I'm thinking that I can only roll out of shield pressure, but he's waiting for it and follows me with a laser and I'm back inside my shield getting hit. Am I supposed to hit him out of his shield pressure? How can I avoid getting in that situation in the first place.

Also from the edge, I do find myself ledgehop nairing a lot. Guess I should try just rolling in or just anything else?

Can you guys watch some of the other games? There are other parts of my game I wish could be critiqued (like gimping game, edgeguarding, etc). I'll work on increasing the variety of my moves which should help my predictability, but there should be other things I can improve on too.

Heres an exercise: What options do you have in shield/on edge? What do these options do well against and what do they do poorly against?

 

[MT_]

Heres an exercise: What options do you have in shield/on edge? What do these options do well against and what do they do poorly against?

From shield: grab, roll, spot dodge, jump (to fair, uair, nair, up-b, dair, counter, wavedash, etc)

Grab against mistimed pressure (but otherwise will be punished). Roll when you can't punish the pressure (but will be expected by the falco). Spot dodge... probably not a good idea at all actually. Jump + attack to poorly spaced lasers/approaches (not good when falco is too deep into your range already); counter out of mistimed pressure or after a laser hits your shield from an approach; wavedash when he's coming from above with no horizontal momentum (but not when he has the horizontal speed or else you still get hit).

From ledge: roll, regular getup, getup attack, jump, ledgehop (to fair, uair, nair, waveland, etc), stall

Roll if he's close to the edge/in the air close to the edge (but not if he's grounded/waiting), getup as a mixup (but not if he's expecting it), getup attack also as a mixup (but not if he's expecting it), jump is usually just bad since it's slow and falco can easily bair you out of it (I find myself doing it on accident instead of a ledgehop), ledgehop + attack when you can hit him out of the air or he is out of CC percentage (but not when he's going to CC or bait it), waveland if hes in the stage or you think you can get behind him quickly (but otherwise no; you'd get punished).

 

[AceDudeyeah]

wavedash out of shield is my top choice if everything ekse is unfeasible.

On a similar note, I used to waveland from edge too often and get totally read for it. I thought waveland from edge was tooo good.
Nowadays, I've come up with just throwing out the ledgehop as if you're going to waveland, but just simply re-grab the edge. It baits them and THEN you can waveland normally, or attack, etc.
Might wanna DI away a lil' to keep yourself outta harm's way before you regrab the edge again.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think you need to explore your options more thoroughly

 

[MT_]

When you say that do you mean there are some key options that I missed, or that I am not matching up the options to their respecting strengths and weaknesses correctly?

 

[Tairseth]

Up-B outa shield is good. Fogot that one.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

When you say that do you mean there are some key options that I missed, or that I am not matching up the options to their respecting strengths and weaknesses correctly?

i think you covered all of the options, though i just skimmed. when you described how to use each option you seemed to think of using them in ways that are no better than flipping a coin.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

Up-B outa shield is good. Fogot that one.

Upsmash outta shield for the surprise! fsmash that missed tech!
or tech chase.

 

[Diakonos]

So... any ideas on getting out of shield pressure? The guy I'm playing against is significantly better than me, but 60-70% of the other matches aren't as one-sided as the first one.

True, but I was referring to some of the other matches too. =D

I feel like I have the most trouble dealing with shield pressure and returning from the edge. Other than attempting a shield grab, I'll try to attack out of shield or something but usually by that time he's already inside so much that I don't have the right spacing for a fair or uair or anything. I also try counter OOS but have limited success with that.

Okay, here's the thing. If a Falco gets inside of you enough (awful mental image), you're in trouble. Angle your shield. I angle my shield TOWARDS Falco, before he hits me. So, if Falco is on your right, you're probably going to angle it at 2 o'clock. Falcos tend to start shield pressure with nair or dair. If it's a dair, you can space yourself behind your shield such that you can fair out of it, in between his moves. Sometimes he'll do a dumb move or lag, and you can up+b out of it. If he is proficient at double-shining and shield grabbing, you cry and hope that eventually you get a feel for when it's safe to try to attack out.

So I'm thinking that I can only roll out of shield pressure, but he's waiting for it and follows me with a laser and I'm back inside my shield getting hit. Am I supposed to hit him out of his shield pressure? How can I avoid getting in that situation in the first place.

Okay, next part. If it is a NAIR that he initially starts attacking you with, just shieldthe initial nair and roll the direction he's coming from. You'll be safe. The same is true if you powershield his approaching nair: he can ACTUALLY shine you, even though you just PS this ngga, and start a combo on you. Just roll in the direction from which he came. He'll likely try to follow up with a laser, but it's not guaranteed. Block it, and shfair OOS for spacing.

If he is doing shield pressure with nair against you (as in, he started the shield pressure with something else, but is shine nairing), you can hit him out. UNLESS he does that nasty retreating nair crap that Mango started doing-- but if he does that, just WD out of shield. The second he gives you room, take it, and think how you can punish him. If you can't, that's okay, just get out of there and reposition yourself to get a grab, an utilt, or a poke to grab etc.

As soon as I get out of Falco's shield pressure, I like to do a rising fair or something onto a nearby platform. Then, I can fall through platform with a spaced fair, and I'm back in business if he doesn't watch out. Rising and falling aerials with platforms (if you're spacing them well enough) can help you avoid being shield pressured. Note: the second you get predictable and spend too much time in the air, Falco will start calling all his friends, because he's going to have a tenderloin Marth steak in a few minutes.

Also from the edge, I do find myself ledgehop nairing a lot. Guess I should try just rolling in or just anything else?

Can you guys watch some of the other games? There are other parts of my game I wish could be critiqued (like gimping game, edgeguarding, etc). I'll work on increasing the variety of my moves which should help my predictability, but there should be other things I can improve on too.

Falcos have the tendency to crouch by the edge these days, and tempt you to fair or something so that they can CC dsmash you.

If he's expecting you: do a fair from the edge, such that the tip hits him, and regrab the edge. Obviously, that means you jump either straight up, or slightly away from the stage. This will piss people off and make them think twice about baiting you. You can also do nair, but you won't be able to regrab the edge (I think) so you'll have to up+b and risk getting attacked. Alternatively, you could learn to WD onto the stage, and surprise him with a grab or utilt.

If he's expecting you, but doesn't have time to punish you (eg he just started running there, or he just did a laggy move), then you can be a bit fancier. You can nair onto the stage here. You might even be able to do a rising dair from the edge and start a combo.

Counter works if you KNOW he's going to attack.

Be careful about doing that drop from the edge regrab thing. You know, the one we all do when we're trying to pry them to come get us? Zhu taught me the hard way that Falcos are now daring enough (pun intended) to run off and do a rising spike. This hurts you and I. Just watch out for it.

Hopefully some of this helps.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Be careful about doing that drop from the edge regrab thing. You know, the one we all do when we're trying to pry them to come get us? Zhu taught me the hard way that Falcos are now daring enough (pun intended) to run off and do a rising spike. This hurts you and I.

Hopefully some of this helps.

M2K often does the ledge roll or stands up normally if he suspects spacies will go for a spike with respawn invincibility.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

just walltech bair them after they spike you.

 

[Diakonos]

just walltech bair them after they spike you.

LOL. Are there others who do this consistently now?

 

[booshk]

i do it pretty consistently.
JOKES

btw manuel, i only saw your tourny match of you vs zhu now.. i thought there was only an mm.. but holy dude if you didn't kill yourself you woulda had a good chance of winning that set...
WHY MANUEL WHY

 

[Diakonos]

i do it pretty consistently.
JOKES

btw manuel, i only saw your tourny match of you vs zhu now.. i thought there was only an mm.. but holy dude if you didn't kill yourself you woulda had a good chance of winning that set...
WHY MANUEL WHY

The sheer intensity of playing a world-ranked player compelled me to forgo my victory. The same is true of when I played against M2K. Also, he's way better at Marth dittos than me.

 

[Dynamism?]

You would destroy any Falco in todays game. ANY FLACOOOO!!!
Mango included.
Dair I say?

Nah but it'd be fun to see. Booshk where you at come play me this week it's my last week in town.

 

[Diakonos]

No, I don't think I'd destroy any Falco. I'm not too scared of him as a character, though. I played as Falco vs. Marth yesterday, and it was wayyyy too easy. I thought they had to at least put some effort in!

 

[MT_]

Diakonos,

Thank you soooooooo much. That helped a lot.

Also, did I ever tell you I'm a huge fan of your Marth? Keep up the good ****. =).

 

[Diakonos]

Ah, no problem, friend. And thanks.

I need some help though. I'm switching to cstick, but it means I have to learn how to jump differently. Are there any exercises you guys used when learning how to jump/ cstick?

 

[booshk]

no, i don't think i'd destroy any falco. I'm not too scared of him as a character, though. I played as falco vs. Marth yesterday, and it was wayyyy too easy. I thought they had to at least put some effort in!

lol thanks manuel T_T( im going to destroy your falco next time we play )

edit: dont you live really far james?! i live in richmond

 

[AustinRC]

Ah, no problem, friend. And thanks.

I need some help though. I'm switching to cstick, but it means I have to learn how to jump differently. Are there any exercises you guys used when learning how to jump/ cstick?

Assuming you mean like a jumping aerial I use the slide motion. I point my thumb up a little using the ball part of it the bottom of the joint. I tap on the x button to jump and slide the joint of my thumb towards the c stick and hit it for a sh fair. Dunno if this is what you were asking or not but I hope this helps.

Okay so I just finished a tournament awhile ago and I need help vs sheik here are the maches.


Grand Finals: Arc v Iori

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkRBxxGgK20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_FsHSZg8I4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfRv9j91VhE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHr3kL2aKSE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oi3tI8y0AnU

I'd really like some constructive criticism. You can be as brutal as you want as long as you help me learn something I dont mind. Thank you for your time and I love all you cute marth players <333!!!

 

[Niko45]

Arc I actually just recently got around to watching the vids from Intimikill. Really impressive stuff. Beating Darkrain? Legit.

Vs. Sheik idk man that matchup is so tough. It looks to me like you could space dtilts more on her ground approach and kill the approaching nairs as much as you can. You have some spots where ur fairing into up airs where I think you should have just kept fairing and possibly gotten an fsmash launch from a platform. I also think ur edgeguarding was a little aggressive. I like to do standard take ledge -> stand up fsmash off again edgeguards for a bit before I try going for WD off back airs and stuff, but you did end up catching with some of them eventually so kudos.