Jupz
Smash Master
Lol sorry I didn't know someone had already posted the same opionions, I should have read it sorry 
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Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)
- Thread starter Gates
- Start date
Coney
Smash Master
Yoshi's not too big a problem. Don't CG wrong or he'll AAA combo you out of it. Watch out for nair actually, it's vicious, same with uair. He might try SH bairs at the start of the match, just shield and pivot grab that ho.
Try to get the bair train going at early percents. CG Yoshi to the ledge, then fthrow--if the Yoshi isn't careful, you can spin around and hit him with three our four bairs. If the Yoshi is really reckless, he'll use his second jump in the frenzy and won't be able to recover.
But, as we're talking about high-level play here and such mistakes are minimal...I'd say 55-45, maybe a sliiiight lean toward 60-40.
Try to get the bair train going at early percents. CG Yoshi to the ledge, then fthrow--if the Yoshi isn't careful, you can spin around and hit him with three our four bairs. If the Yoshi is really reckless, he'll use his second jump in the frenzy and won't be able to recover.
But, as we're talking about high-level play here and such mistakes are minimal...I'd say 55-45, maybe a sliiiight lean toward 60-40.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
I'd say its even, but I want to hear fogo and Bwett.
Buuman
Smash Ace
The factor in this natchup is what type of yoshi we're fighting. The most effective strat with yoshi, imo, is camping with eggs, side bing when they get cornered....and PIVOT GRABBING!!! omg yoshis piv grab will make it extremely difficult to approach. From my tourney experience if the yoshi and ddd both play to there gayest potential, i believe its 46:54 yoshi.
note: yoshi is one of the most difficult chars to edge guard right up there w/ gw.
note: yoshi is one of the most difficult chars to edge guard right up there w/ gw.
There's none that I know of. Also, we have a Q&A thread for random questions like this so that you don't go off topic in random threads like, idk, this one.
I think RATED has experience with a Puerto Rican Yoshi. I'd like to hear his thoughts on this also.
Inhale>Egg Lay?
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
I'd say the match-up is 50:50 => 55:45 ddd. A good Yoshi can outcamp DDD with eggs which (unless you've got perfect shielding down perfectly) will deal some good damage or weaken ddd's shield considerably. Once the shield is lowered a bit, a Yoshi can approach with a combination of either a turn-around neutral B which can go directly into an up-aerial (14% damage every time and the Yoshi can get away fast enough not to be punished), or the Yoshi can approach with the back-aerial which is guaranteed to hit if the ddd side-dodges or tries to shield because the last portion of the attack will hit after the side dodge is over and since the shield is weakened, it'll hit the vulnerable part on the top portion of the body. The back-aerial is probably Yoshi's best combo starting move; he can use back-aerial => up-tilt => up-aerial (or back-aerial if he's fast enough which can lead to more combo potential) => egg-throw.
If a Yoshi plays defensively like that and waits for opportune moments, he can almost take out the chain-grab entirely. The Yoshi CAN NOT get out of the chain-grab if ddd does it correctly. If the ddd's timing is slightly off, the Yoshi can double-stick DI just far enough away to get a neutral A off which stuns ddd just long enough to escape the chain-grab (but like I said, if the ddd's perfect with the timing, this will never happen). Some Yoshi players will think that side-dodging is the best way to escape the chain-grab. This is entirely false and the reason is that ddd (if you predict the side-dodge) can run PAST Yoshi and do a pivot grab which connects right as Yoshi gets out of the dodge so the ddd can chain-grab back across the stage. Bwett has fallen for this a few times against ddd's (there's one video where he gets chain-grabbed 4 times across the stage (twice right and twice left) and the damage was insane.
DDD can outcamp Yoshi from the edge easily. Yoshi's up-B from the edge (when the Yoshi is hanging on the edge and hits away from the edge and does the up-B toward the stage and regrabs the stage) can only be done 5 times before it doesn't work anymore. Yoshi's up-B is unique in that the first two eggs send Yoshi up a bit, the 3rd and 4th eggs keep Yoshi at the same height, the 5th egg barely slows his down-ward momentum, and the 6th egg onward shows no change in Yoshi's vertical height when falling. Because of this, a Yoshi can only throw 5 eggs from the edge; if he throws a 6th one, he's dead (no question. The lag after throwing the egg is enough where the double jump won't make it back to the edge). To get the vertical height back on the egg throws, Yoshi MUST land on the stage. Once he's back on the stage, everything resets. Because of this limitation, a ddd can easily outcamp from the edge with waddle-dees (and the occasional gordo... god I hate the stupid gordos), drop => up-aerial, etc...
In the air, Yoshi has ddd beat. Yoshi's back aerial and neutral aerial have more priority and are faster than ddd's forward, back, and neutral aerials. Ddd's up-aerial goes through Yoshi's down aerial and ddd's down-aerial goes through Yoshi's up-aerial. Based on that, it's a 3:2 advantage in the air for Yoshi (and most Yoshi players won't use the down aerial unless they're sure at least some of it will connect or they're trying to break your shield with a down-aerial => neutral aerial (44% damage directly to your shield which means if your shield isn't a full shield, it will break)).
The edge-guarding aspect for both characters is pretty close. With ddd's numerous jumps that reset every time he grabs the edge and Yoshi's super-armor in the 2nd jump; it's incredibly difficult to edge-guard either one. Most Yoshi players will save the 2nd jump and instead throw an egg or two first which can grab the edge by itself or just move the Yoshi closer to the edge so he can double jump => air-dodge to be safe while coming back. Something that I've recently discovered is the down-tilt is great for both characters to edge guard. Ddd can use the down-tilt if a Yoshi is trying to throw eggs from the edge to interrupt it and a Yoshi can do a down-tilt to interrupt the up-B and keep Waddle-dee's away safely.
The last thing that I can think of is mentioning Yoshi's chain-grab. I've been told that Yoshi can chain-grab ddd but it's one of the hardest chain-grabs in the game to do. I've only managed it a couple times myself and I think it was only because I caught my opponent off guard. Basically, if Yoshi grabs ddd, he chews until ddd breaks out and then Yoshi dashes forward and regrabs. If done correctly, Yoshi's tongue should knick ddd's foot in the air and he'll get regrabbed. Like I said, I've only been successful a couple times with it, but it's been proven that it exists and it's extremely difficult to do but it was worth mentioning anyway.
So, summary for people who don't like reading:
Aerials => Yoshi's advantage
Ground => DDD's advantage
Edge-guarding => Even
Camping => Yoshi's advantage
Edge-camping => DDD's advantage
Grabs => DDD's advantage
Smashes (though not mentioned up there) => Yoshi's advantage
Tilts => Even
Overall => 50:50/55:45 DDD
Well, that's all the info I can think of right now. If any of you have any direct questions about Yoshi, you can private message me and I'll get back to you. I've had LOTS of experience playing against a ddd so I'm sure I can offer helpful advice on what ddd should do and watch out for in certain situations.
If a Yoshi plays defensively like that and waits for opportune moments, he can almost take out the chain-grab entirely. The Yoshi CAN NOT get out of the chain-grab if ddd does it correctly. If the ddd's timing is slightly off, the Yoshi can double-stick DI just far enough away to get a neutral A off which stuns ddd just long enough to escape the chain-grab (but like I said, if the ddd's perfect with the timing, this will never happen). Some Yoshi players will think that side-dodging is the best way to escape the chain-grab. This is entirely false and the reason is that ddd (if you predict the side-dodge) can run PAST Yoshi and do a pivot grab which connects right as Yoshi gets out of the dodge so the ddd can chain-grab back across the stage. Bwett has fallen for this a few times against ddd's (there's one video where he gets chain-grabbed 4 times across the stage (twice right and twice left) and the damage was insane.
DDD can outcamp Yoshi from the edge easily. Yoshi's up-B from the edge (when the Yoshi is hanging on the edge and hits away from the edge and does the up-B toward the stage and regrabs the stage) can only be done 5 times before it doesn't work anymore. Yoshi's up-B is unique in that the first two eggs send Yoshi up a bit, the 3rd and 4th eggs keep Yoshi at the same height, the 5th egg barely slows his down-ward momentum, and the 6th egg onward shows no change in Yoshi's vertical height when falling. Because of this, a Yoshi can only throw 5 eggs from the edge; if he throws a 6th one, he's dead (no question. The lag after throwing the egg is enough where the double jump won't make it back to the edge). To get the vertical height back on the egg throws, Yoshi MUST land on the stage. Once he's back on the stage, everything resets. Because of this limitation, a ddd can easily outcamp from the edge with waddle-dees (and the occasional gordo... god I hate the stupid gordos), drop => up-aerial, etc...
In the air, Yoshi has ddd beat. Yoshi's back aerial and neutral aerial have more priority and are faster than ddd's forward, back, and neutral aerials. Ddd's up-aerial goes through Yoshi's down aerial and ddd's down-aerial goes through Yoshi's up-aerial. Based on that, it's a 3:2 advantage in the air for Yoshi (and most Yoshi players won't use the down aerial unless they're sure at least some of it will connect or they're trying to break your shield with a down-aerial => neutral aerial (44% damage directly to your shield which means if your shield isn't a full shield, it will break)).
The edge-guarding aspect for both characters is pretty close. With ddd's numerous jumps that reset every time he grabs the edge and Yoshi's super-armor in the 2nd jump; it's incredibly difficult to edge-guard either one. Most Yoshi players will save the 2nd jump and instead throw an egg or two first which can grab the edge by itself or just move the Yoshi closer to the edge so he can double jump => air-dodge to be safe while coming back. Something that I've recently discovered is the down-tilt is great for both characters to edge guard. Ddd can use the down-tilt if a Yoshi is trying to throw eggs from the edge to interrupt it and a Yoshi can do a down-tilt to interrupt the up-B and keep Waddle-dee's away safely.
The last thing that I can think of is mentioning Yoshi's chain-grab. I've been told that Yoshi can chain-grab ddd but it's one of the hardest chain-grabs in the game to do. I've only managed it a couple times myself and I think it was only because I caught my opponent off guard. Basically, if Yoshi grabs ddd, he chews until ddd breaks out and then Yoshi dashes forward and regrabs. If done correctly, Yoshi's tongue should knick ddd's foot in the air and he'll get regrabbed. Like I said, I've only been successful a couple times with it, but it's been proven that it exists and it's extremely difficult to do but it was worth mentioning anyway.
So, summary for people who don't like reading:
Aerials => Yoshi's advantage
Ground => DDD's advantage
Edge-guarding => Even
Camping => Yoshi's advantage
Edge-camping => DDD's advantage
Grabs => DDD's advantage
Smashes (though not mentioned up there) => Yoshi's advantage
Tilts => Even
Overall => 50:50/55:45 DDD
Well, that's all the info I can think of right now. If any of you have any direct questions about Yoshi, you can private message me and I'll get back to you. I've had LOTS of experience playing against a ddd so I'm sure I can offer helpful advice on what ddd should do and watch out for in certain situations.
bigman40
Smash Master
^^^ dude.......spaces....plz (make some paragraghs)? Wall of text is not good to see...
Heh, my bad. I was proofreading it before adding all the paragraph stuff. Didn't think someone would actually read it before I edited it.
Fogo
Smash Shinigami
If i wasn't so busy i'd write something for this 
Maybe tomorrow, or maybe bwett could do it
Maybe tomorrow, or maybe bwett could do it
Does Yoshi's bair really last for that long? I know it's out pretty long, but if it can hit Dedede out of his spotdodge then it it's like G&W bair length.
In my experience playing it does hit after a spotdodge. It's possible that I could be mistaken since I haven't tested it with a perfectly timed spotdodge. In any case, if the spotdodge does last long enough, Yoshi doesn't have any lag after his back-aerial so he can immediately do a neutral-aerial which I'm 100% certain will hit if it's not perfect shielded. I guess to make it clearer, Yoshi's back-aerial is almost the exact same length as ROB's down-smash, so you probably know that the timing to dodge all of ROB's down-smash is difficult so it's more than likely possible but just incredibly difficult.
If the back air is exactly the same length as ROB's down smash, it can be spotdodged. However, I don't recall ever successfully spotdodging your back air. I guess we need to test that.
Buuman
Smash Ace
Something I must add to the peach discussion. If she dairs you in her float, and u sheild it, IMMEDIATELY drop your sheild and up tilt. Works EVERYTIME if u time it right. Compliments to Niko K.
Mythic02
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2009
- Messages
- 210
Can Dedede inhale the egg roll? It would be a good thing to know so you can stop one approach.
And I think Bair is longer than the spotdodge. If not then it is way too close for comfort. To spot dodge it you would need extremely perfect timing.(AKA your probably going to have to get lucky avoiding this.
And though yoshi's aerials are really good he can be gimped. WoP him a bit and he is screwed. You don't even have to go out far just go back to the ledge wait for his second jump then go after him again.
And I think Bair is longer than the spotdodge. If not then it is way too close for comfort. To spot dodge it you would need extremely perfect timing.(AKA your probably going to have to get lucky avoiding this.
And though yoshi's aerials are really good he can be gimped. WoP him a bit and he is screwed. You don't even have to go out far just go back to the ledge wait for his second jump then go after him again.
CRASHiC
Smash Hero
idk about inhale. But powershield grab still works.
YoshiIslander77z
Smash Apprentice
i found bwett, Mmac and the_yoshinator really long write up while looking up some old threadsIf i wasn't so busy i'd write something for this
Maybe tomorrow, or maybe bwett could do it
Originally Posted by bwett1
Alright, I actually was deciding not to do another description because I've done this so many times, but then I read some comments about the matchup and it charged me up so yeah, get ready beyotches!
First off, the CG DDD performs on Yoshi has strange timing and most DDD's have problems pulling it off. You cannot escape it if they have the timing proper, however because it is hard for them to do, always try to spot dodge, roll, or something everytime, just in case they screw up. Most of yall do have the right idea. Spam eggs. If you don't use eggs, the matchup moves quickly in DDD's favor.
Now let's discuss all options if both of you are on the ground. The best range you want to be at against DDD is far away. He can try to spam waddles, but as long as you stay out of that range, then you can punish him for it with eggs.
If you happen to approach DDD, there are only a few things you can do that won't be punished. Retreating bairs, or rising aerials, are really the only safe things to do. If you do bairs through the DDD, he can shield the entire thing and grab you on the other side, or possible grab you while trying to go through. It can happen. Usually you want to do interchange bair and ETS back and forth. It causes your strategy to be split between defense and offense and the DDD won't know how to approach it. If they try to approach, they will get caught by the retreating bair into other attacks. If they back up, you can egg spam. This is the absolute best strategy I have found, in fact it's pretty good against most characters (I use it quite a bit).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mmac
Dair works great here too. It seems to always connect at least a few kicks, even if he shields the entire thing. However it can be punished on the landing if he reacts quick enough and don't get away fast, or even stopped cold by an Utilt before you get in
If he happens to shield grab alot, throw in more grabs and egglay. DJC egglay works wonders on DDD. Pivot grabs should be used quite a bit.
When you are being CG'ed by DDD, you have to keep in mind a few things. If you are at high percentage, the chance of you being CG'ed to the end of the stage is quite rare. Odds are they are going to stop the CG and use dash attack or wait for your spot dodge and utilt (And as a side note, always be wary of his ultilt. It kills at 98% or something when fresh. This is a good DDD's main killing tool besides gimping). Also, I don't know if some of you that have seen my recent vids but I have started implementing something where I will run straight at someone, they spot dodge, and I run past them to pivot grab. It works surprising well, BUT now Fogo stole it from me and is wrecking me with it with his CG's. On FD, he will CG me to the end. I usually try to spot dodge out of the grabs and he will run past and pivot another grab and go across the stage again. I've been CG'ed in one go 3 times around FD...it was the worst experience of my life lol but no other DDD knows about that just yet so ssshhhhh =P. If you do ever get that, might want to try rolling instead, that will break the cycle. He can also dtilt out of CG, which hurts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the_yoshinator
Jab out of the CG instead? That way he can't get around you to pivot grab.
Now, no matter what, you do not want to be above him at high percentage. Utilt has deceptive range and will connect. If yall are both in the air, connect uairs together with eggs and maybe a dair or two. This area is really where a certain yoshi's style comes out so mix it up.
The absolute worst position and what I believe makes this match 55:45 DDD is when you are off the stage and DDD is standing right at the edge. If you are ever in this position, probably the safest thing is to recover high and try to get back on without getting punished. However, if your life has become so incredibly unlucky that you must grab that ledge...personally I believe besides playing against MK in this kind of setup, this is the absolute hardest setup yoshi can be in. Now let's go through your options.
1) Get up attack can be shieldgrabbed.
2) Ledge jump can be grabbed or attacked instantly. Might work once or twice but very dangerous to do since you are so vulnerable doing that.
3) The last option available would be to do drop -> DJ - something. This part all depends on how smart the DDD you're playing is. This is super mind games lol.
3a) If you try bair, he can shieldgrab it and is rather dangerous.
3b) Dair is another option and can be quite good, but only if they don't see it coming. Also can be shield grabbed while you are coming up.
3c) DJAD is probably one of your safest options. In this instance, you have to choose where you will dodge to, either in front of him or behind him. Once again, all depends on how your opponent reacts. If he predicts the dodge through, you get grabbed and CG'ed to the other side. If he predicts in front, you get grabbed and thrown back out in the air.
3d) Egglay can be very useful as well.
3e) Depending how close to the edge they are, ECE can off some good damage, but they can dtilt or ftilt you out of it so watch out for that.
In all these instances with grabs, you have just lost your DJ. He can wait for the release and a quick edgegrab with invincibility will leave you falling to your doom.
In all actuality though, there is no safe option. If your opponent plays smart, you will punished from any of these things. Luckily, though, most DDD's won't have the reactions or timing to perform most of this. However, if you do play a smart DDD, do not put yourself in this position.
Well, it was kinda scattered and stuff but I hope this is what yall wanted. I might sound rather bleak in some situations, but it really is that hard if you are playing someone smart.
55:45 Have fun!
First of all, no "serious" Yoshi player is ever going to use the egg roll as an approach. You can watch all of mine, Bwett's, Juan's, or any of the "good" Yoshi matches and if the egg roll is used, there's a 99% chance that it's a mistake. That move has priority that's in the level of all of Captain Falcon's moves.
Also, along the same notes, good freaking luck gimping a good Yoshi. You say you can wall of pain him but the 2nd jump has super armor enough that unless he's at a considerably high damage (I'm talking 160-170% damage) then the 2nd jump will keep Yoshi safe and at that high percentage, it can't be considered a "gimp" If you've had success with this then I'm sorry, you haven't been playing good Yoshi players.
Buuman
Smash Ace
On the contrary, I've seen good yoshis do it unexpectedly in close range to escape to the other side of the stage to continue their egg camping.
YoshiIslander77z
Smash Apprentice
gimping a yoshi happens by accedent u cant go for a gimp agaisnt him expecting to get it with more then a 5% chance ull get it
bigman40
Smash Master
You can footstool him only if we're not doing anything. If we happen to use any attack, or airdodge, then we can't be footstooled.
bigman40
Smash Master
Oh. No, we'd be screwed then. Our jump is completely negated after being footstooled and we don't get it back.
Yeah; you said "in close range" That's entirely different then what the other guy was suggesting. If a Yoshi does it in close range, then a Dedede can't react fast enough to suck him up. My comment was directed at approaching with the egg roll from far enough away that the Dedede has time to suck him up. Sorry if I was unclear.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
...This is really hard. Jigglypuff has the perfect air mobility to beat out a D3, but a D3 has enough options to keep her out. It MIGHT be Jigglypuffs advantage, since D3 is so big so we can rest easily, our bairs string on him really well, and our uair juggles really well on him.
D3's bair ***** us hard and kills really early, along with fair. Uair can be hazardous to us, though I can't imagine dair being too much of a problem. utilt kills us at like, 90%, if not lower. Inhale, as always, is really good. If we're ever chaining a long string of bairs, you can DI out and probably use inhale. It should be used as a surprise though, lol.
I'd call it 55:45 D3's advantage, but I haven't played any D3's with my Puff, only my D3 vs. other Puffs.
D3's bair ***** us hard and kills really early, along with fair. Uair can be hazardous to us, though I can't imagine dair being too much of a problem. utilt kills us at like, 90%, if not lower. Inhale, as always, is really good. If we're ever chaining a long string of bairs, you can DI out and probably use inhale. It should be used as a surprise though, lol.
I'd call it 55:45 D3's advantage, but I haven't played any D3's with my Puff, only my D3 vs. other Puffs.
Monkey Wrench
Smash Apprentice
Dedede is so imbalanced, lol. He has the tools to beat Snake, but has such glaring flaws(he's practically the epitome of easy combos) that even Jiggly can effectively exploit them.
From a Dedede player's perspective:
Jiggly is really annoying. Jiggly's fast air speed vs. D3's slow air speed is a very bad combination. Otherwise, you have the range and power advantage here, use it the best way you can. Bair is godly here, as is utilt. Even without the CG, D3's grab is still a major asset for him. It's a battle for spacing, and D3's great defense game should be used to its fullest. Shieldgrab and bair are what it really boils down to.
From a Dedede player's perspective:
Jiggly is really annoying. Jiggly's fast air speed vs. D3's slow air speed is a very bad combination. Otherwise, you have the range and power advantage here, use it the best way you can. Bair is godly here, as is utilt. Even without the CG, D3's grab is still a major asset for him. It's a battle for spacing, and D3's great defense game should be used to its fullest. Shieldgrab and bair are what it really boils down to.
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Its DDD's advantage, but it is close as hell. Jigglypuff's grab game is much less useful here and U-tilt rocks, but its close.
Veril
Frame Savant
Rest KOs at ~93% on Final D. Its extremely easy to hit with. F-air also KOs early. Dash attack sets up for the f-air KO pretty well and anytime you use your up-b we can either stage spike or rest.
_clinton
Smash Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2006
- Messages
- 3,189
I play as Jiggs more than D3...and the 180% til death was a joke...
illinialex24
Smash Hero
Lets just take a moment to admire Monkey Wrench's location:
Falcon Punching people... with Jigglypuff
Falcon Punching people... with Jigglypuff
NeverKnowsBest
Monochrome Like A Panda
^ROFL! To be honest that is probably the best location I've ever seen.
I give DDD the win in this fight. The only thing a good DDD has to fear from jiggly is the air attacks and uptilt/upsmash combos. That aside, minions will screw up melee plans and DDD has insane reach to lay down some smash pain. Dsmash will also keep a jiggly at a distance, and the king has an advantage in Bair and Dair. I don't regularly play with the king, but a friend does to great success.
Jiggly can turn the king into a big DDD beach ball, but lacks killing power.
The king can make jiggly a cute pink gum ball and a solid smash attack at anything about...what...45%??? and jiggly is done for.
60-40 DDD at least.
QSTN: Does the kings B swallow Jiggly's overB roll attack? It swallows sonic like no tomorrow (who I noticed was missing from the matchup list).
Jiggly can turn the king into a big DDD beach ball, but lacks killing power.
The king can make jiggly a cute pink gum ball and a solid smash attack at anything about...what...45%??? and jiggly is done for.
60-40 DDD at least.
QSTN: Does the kings B swallow Jiggly's overB roll attack? It swallows sonic like no tomorrow (who I noticed was missing from the matchup list).
7ACE7
Smash Apprentice
I don't think I ever congratulated you. Mad props on the thread Gates.
Maniclysane
Smash Lord
Play a good Jigglypuff before you say 60:40. You don't know how hard her air mobility ***** D3's, letting her practically weave in and out without him being able to catch up.
DonkeyKongUh
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 30, 2008
- Messages
- 63
Are you eventually going to go over the infinite matches without the infinites as they are often banned