Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[thesage]

Little Nemo, son.

Some hefty pride from both sides. No, DDD doesn't **** Ness. No, Ness doesn't have an answer to everything DDD does. It'd be 55:45 without the CG, but oh buttons, we have a CG. It's 60:40, leave it at that.

That's pretty much my opinion lol.

 

[Ref]

Little Nemo, son.

Some hefty pride from both sides. No, DDD doesn't **** Ness. No, Ness doesn't have an answer to everything DDD does. It'd be 55:45 without the CG, but oh buttons, we have a CG. It's 60:40, leave it at that.

I agree with this. Pretty much.

 

[Coney]

I forgot in my last to thank all the Ness players who came on the board with timely, thorough analyses on the match-up. Yall're great. And sage, I'll see you next month pal ;D

 

[_clinton]

Little Nemo, son.

Some hefty pride from both sides. No, DDD doesn't **** Ness. No, Ness doesn't have an answer to everything DDD does. It'd be 55:45 without the CG, but oh buttons, we have a CG. It's 60:40, leave it at that.

Little Nemo: the Dream Master...
God it has been a while sense I played the NES...

On another note...I still feel the only reason why D3 can stand vs. Ness is with the Chain...but whatever...

 

[Gates]

I forgot in my last to thank all the Ness players who came on the board with timely, thorough analyses on the match-up. Yall're great. And sage, I'll see you next month pal ;D

I agree. I was actually surprised at how fast you guys posted thorough responses lol.

 

[thesage]

I forgot in my last to thank all the Ness players who came on the board with timely, thorough analyses on the match-up. Yall're great. And sage, I'll see you next month pal ;D

It could be sooner if you go to another tournament. I may go to Katsucon this weekend.

 

[Coney]

Naw, I've got a few friends going to that but I'm just not into anime or manga or anything like that. They're trying to get me to go to Otakon next year since we live so close, and I only said I'd do it if I could be Olimar and they'd be my Pikmin.

We're still working on that one :<

 

[thesage]

I'm not even into anime at all lol. I just have a bunch of friends going.

 

[CRASHiC]

May I recomend you both to a little thing called AKIRA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[_clinton]

I agree. I was actually surprised at how fast you guys posted thorough responses lol.

Why am I the only Ness who thinks Ness can fight back just fine to the point where it is even overall IMO?

 

[PKNintendo]

Little Nemo, son.

Some hefty pride from both sides. No, DDD doesn't **** Ness. No, Ness doesn't have an answer to everything DDD does. It'd be 55:45 without the CG, but oh buttons, we have a CG. It's 60:40, leave it at that.

Lawl. Okay then, who's next. (TC will die in his sleep if he picks Lucas next)

 

[_clinton]

Lucas does better vs. D3 then Ness does anyway...

 

[thesage]

Why am I the only Ness who thinks Ness can fight back just fine to the point where it is even overall IMO?

Ness can fight evenly, he just has to be a lot more skilled than the DDD does. DDD's cg can rack up a lot of damage and set up for edgeguards pretty easily.

 

[_clinton]

Ness can fight evenly, he just has to be a lot more skilled than the DDD does. DDD's cg can rack up a lot of damage and set up for edgeguards pretty easily.

Haven't we talked about how the edgeguard attempt is pretty easy to avoid?
Also its not like D3 is the only character in this match with a skill that can rack up damage well on the other guy...

 

[Gates]

Okay, I think we can close the discussion on Ness now.

POKEMON TRAINER DISCUSSION GO!

Spoiler

I WANNA BE THE VERY BEST, LIKE NO ONE EVER WAS...

 

[_clinton]

PT is fun to play as...

I'm thinking Charizard and Squirtle will give D3 more issues then Ivysaur...but only because of the edge game (otherwise I feel Ivysaur can hold his own pretty well)

 

[Steeler]

i think this matchup is fairly neutral.

squirtle is around 50/50. both ivy and charzy are in the 45-55 or 40-60 range.

 

[Charizard92]

Posted in the PT site.

 

[Ishiey]

DeDeDe advantage up to 60:40, if you ask me. Both Ivy and Char will have difficulty getting back on stage or to the ledge after a chaingrab, so that's the main problem. Squirtle can't be chaingrabbed, but you can still techchase.

CG is the main problem for Ivy, but otherwise she can rack up damage fine. BS punishes any dodged grabs nicely, and razor leaf > waddle dees. Charizard has a larger grab range, but not by much. DeDeDe's huge size makes him a nice target for rock smash and flamethrower though, which helps to even it out. Squirtle should fight an aerial battle here, with his higher aerial mobility and quick attacks. DeDeDe's weight makes it easier to string attakcs together, and water gun owns your recovery if you cancel it.

Spoiler

TO CATCH THEM IS MY REAL TEST, TO TRAIN THEM IS MY CAUSE...

 

[zeta]

over all i think its in ddd favor 55-45

Squirtle juggles ddd very well with utilt and u air. Squirtles aerial movement should be enough to keep ddd guessing and all of his aerials are great for damage. Racking up damage is not a problem however the energy squirtle spends taking ddd to kill percent often leaves him fatigued requiring a switch to kill. DDD does not have the cg but getting squirtle to kill percent (75) doesn't take much ddd will have a little trouble killing a good squirtle that can maneuver in the air and di properly. over all 50-50.

Ivy also does not have to much trouble racking up damage against ddd. Razor leaf, ftilt and bullet seed all do the job well. Ivy was three killing moves: usmash uair and vine whip that can punish ddd up b recover if he is forced to use it. Ivy's fsmash will kill off the side as well as her back throw. DDD has the cg and can force ivy off the edge with a good edge guard its almost a guaranteed kill. so really its about ivy spacing ddd and keeping the grab away. over all ddd 40-60.

zard racks damage well and kills easily. his multiple jumps and great up b will keep him alive a lot longer then ivy. ddd can rack damage well with the cg. really i think this is a toss up on who gets the death blow. 50-50


over all pt can rack damage well against ddd. squirtle can't kill, ivy gets killed and zard is even.

ddd 55- pt 45

 

[Bomber7]

I'm agreeing with the overall neutral match up. Charz and Ivy can rack some damage on D3 and pose a serius threat however D3 got the cg and is more powerful and wont die that easily. lol Ivy vs D3 is a lag battle. Squirtle is at a disadvantage mainly cuz of his weight and one good hit would kill him before he could even reach 70-80%(could be exhagerating)

A good stage to cg on is Delfino, get us in one of those corners and its a infinite cg......

 

[Pichu Sensei]

Overall, it's 50-50, so it really depends on the stage.

Squirtle can rack up combos, but can't finish the king off. Ivy can bullet seed and explode DDD easily, not to mention tether snipe D3's recovery, but DDD can open up a can on the plant. Charizard can take on the penquin, but DDD can easily swamp the lizard with waddle dees.

 

[Elliot Gale]

I've always felt it to be nearly neutral myself. The only issue PT really faces in the match-up is getting that kill, but so many other characters have the same troubles that it hardly seems like a point.

 

[lain]

Just throw out the entire matchup discussion and write:

run around, shield grab a lot, and bair when people are jumping instead of on the ground.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

MY POKEMANS, LET ME SHOW THEM TO YOU!!.

A lot of Pokemon Trainer players fight using one Pokemon specifically, each Pokemon has specific strengths and weaknesses, and adapting to fight each is a must in this matchup.

Squirtle is probably the second-hardest to face in terms of a matchup with DeDeDe, he's very fast, can punish Dedede in-close and we can't chaingrab him or D-throw to F-tilt.
Squirtle is the 3rd lightweight character and his range is rather poor, so it isn't hard to take him down.

Ivysaur is undisputedly the worst of the three for Dedede to face IMO.
Bullet Seed is a phenomenally good anti-air move, and many of Ivysaur's attacks boast good range and good knockback as well - which means that he can play fine at DeDeDe's
power range. Ivysaur does use a tether recovery, so you can Edgehog him really easy, but this may not be the best option depending on the situation. In many cases, you'll find the best bet is to let your enemy come to you and camp. We can chaingrab him so its good but still hard to face.

Charizard is the strongest of the three overall, but he's also the easiest for DeDeDe to deal with. Charizard also boasts strong recovery, and is quite strong too i think it KO's at like 120% I beleive. Where Dedede breaks this matchup is the chaingrab, it destroys him.
Charizard also has massive lag on a lot of his moves so we can shieldgrab him and punish him after.

 

[Vayseth]

Ivy will get simply owned by D3. Almost as bad as Link, if not worse.

Charizard has a few things but the CG will hurt him as he's open to grabs a lot and his recovery is far worse than Dedede's.

Squirtle is about even, maybe even a bit in D3's favor. Can D3 own Squirtle with grab release like the rest of the cast (practically)?

 

[Fearmy]

MY POKEMANS, LET ME SHOW THEM TO YOU!!.

A lot of Pokemon Trainer players fight using one Pokemon specifically, each Pokemon has specific strengths and weaknesses, and adapting to fight each is a must in this matchup.

Squirtle is probably the second-hardest to face in terms of a matchup with DeDeDe, he's very fast, can punish Dedede in-close and we can't chaingrab him or D-throw to F-tilt.
Squirtle is the 3rd lightweight character and his range is rather poor, so it isn't hard to take him down.

Ivysaur is undisputedly the worst of the three for Dedede to face IMO.
Bullet Seed is a phenomenally good anti-air move, and many of Ivysaur's attacks boast good range and good knockback as well - which means that he can play fine at DeDeDe's
power range. Ivysaur does use a tether recovery, so you can Edgehog him really easy, but this may not be the best option depending on the situation. In many cases, you'll find the best bet is to let your enemy come to you and camp. We can chaingrab him so its good but still hard to face.

Charizard is the strongest of the three overall, but he's also the easiest for DeDeDe to deal with. Charizard also boasts strong recovery, and is quite strong too i think it KO's at like 120% I beleive. Where Dedede breaks this matchup is the chaingrab, it destroys him.
Charizard also has massive lag on a lot of his moves so we can shieldgrab him and punish him after.

I see someone doesn't know much about PT? A Good PT player will use ALL 3, not specify on just one pokemon...
Squirtle can EASILY get Shield grabbed, that's all you have to do to block our approach. D3 however will get destroyed in the air, but it's already tough enough to approach him.

Ivysaur's BS is more of a punisher, it's great after a powerhshield. and the bigger the target is, the easier it is to pull off. I personally like doing a BS -> a sh BS, most people find that surprising and it'll deal at least 40%. D3 can gimp ivysaur pretty easily, also just so you know, if D3 slightly messes up the CG sequence, we can get out with BS. I think ivy can actually do the best against d3, you can pull of 3 BS's simeltaniously (that's like 80%...), and Razor leaf will cut through the waddles... U-smash and u-air are REALLY helpful if you can pull them off, and as long as you can read their airdodges that isn't that much of a problem. the gimping is the ONLY problem that ivy really has against D3, and if you really think about it, i've said this many times, TRY to get back on the edge (nair IS SEXY!!! multiple hits gets rid of ledge hoggers!!)

Charizard get's CG... but this is where charizard can play defensive. Flamethrower outranges D3 and Rocksmash is really useful. Charizard has the grab range.. but seeing how they both won't kill each other untill a while makes this even.

And i would say that Charizard isn't best, and ivy the worst, it really depends on the matchup.

 

[sMexy-Blu]

I see someone doesn't know much about PT? A Good PT player will use ALL 3, not specify on just one pokemon...
Squirtle can EASILY get Shield grabbed, that's all you have to do to block our approach. D3 however will get destroyed in the air, but it's already tough enough to approach him.

I know that a good PT player will use all 3 Pokemons but most PT players have one Pokemon that they are best with and that they like the most, thats what I meant. <_<

 

[Fogo]

Just throw out the entire matchup discussion and write:

run around, shield grab a lot, and bair when people are jumping instead of on the ground.

lol made my day

 

[_clinton]

I know that a good PT player will use all 3 Pokemons but most PT players have one Pokemon that they are best with and that they like the most, thats what I meant. <_<

This is one of the things I like about Brawl+...you can use only one of them if you want...

 

[Gates]

Just throw out the entire matchup discussion and write:

run around, shield grab a lot, and bair when people are jumping instead of on the ground.

Did you mean the PT discussion or the whole thread?

 

[Tero.]

Just throw out the entire matchup discussion and write:

run around, shield grab a lot, and bair when people are jumping instead of on the ground.

I fully support this.

@Gates: the whole thread

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Just throw out the entire matchup discussion and write:

run around, shield grab a lot, and bair when people are jumping instead of on the ground.

Isn't that every Dedede matchup?

That aside, PT vs. Dedede is dumb. Obviously in Dedede's favor. I'm going to say 60-40 or 55-45 before I actually think about it.

I'll give a detailed explanation sometime in the next few hours.

 

[Fogo]

Isn't that every Dedede matchup?

Yesss XD

Your avatar is prooooo

 

[Monkey Wrench]

I'll copy/paste my writeup from the PT board(I never did get around to Charizard for some reason):

Dedede matchup stuff:

Squirtle: Dedede is vulnerable to combos. Squirtle has combos. Getting inside Dedede's range means a free 30% or so at low to mid %s, and he's good at harassing D3 with hit and run tactics. But D3 is great at defense, and has some ways to keep Squirtle away. F-tilt outranges his entire ground game. Squirtle is tough to shield grab with most of his attacks being so quick, but it's doable, and usually leads into a d-throw techchase, or a b-throw for a quick 16%. Dedede's bair beats your air game, and it will by far be his most used aerial. If Squirtle is sent offstage at a low angle(as with an offstage d-throw), he's likely not making it back. Finally, KOs: U-tilt is D3s primary kill move and KOs Squirtle in the low 90s. D3 has much greater surviviability and will live to about 120 or even more from any of Squirtle's KO moves. It's Squirtle's damage racking and speed vs. Dedede's power and defensive game.

50-50, maybe 55-45 Squirtle.

Ivysaur: Dedede will be on the ground here more than in most matchups. Ivysaur's bair has huge range and beats D3's bair, but it's very weak. Your fair will probably be a major annoyance here as well. F-tilt outranges all of your ground moves, and if you don't approach carefully, you'll likely get shield grabbed and CGd offstage, which leads into a bair or fair wop and probably Ivy's stock. Both characters can spam, but Ivy's is faster(but watch for the occasional gordo from our side). Bullet Seed is a combo in itself, again, as with Squirtle, if you land the attack, it's 20-30 free damage. As for KOs, u-tilt KOs in the early-mid 100s. Dedede doesn't live as long as he likes in this matchup thanks to your u-smash and u-air, and will probably live to 110 or so if you can land it. Ivy can spam and compete with D3 in the air and in KO power, but is easy to edgeguard and can't break D3's defenses as easily as Squirtle.

55-45 Dedede, maybe 60-40.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Yesss XD

Your avatar is prooooo

I agree.

I'll give a detailed explanation sometime in the next few hours.

I play this matchup pretty much every day, and my older brother is a pretty decent Dedede.

Squirtle has a slight-to-moderate advantage. He can't get in safely on a grounded Dedede unless he powershields a Waddle Dee or a Forward-Tilt, but you can literally spam Water Gun on Dedede all day with a positive outcome.

If Dedede falls off the level, Squirtle will hurt him a lot. When Dedede gets the ledge, he's at a disadvantage, as Squirtle's F-Tilt beats out a normal multi-jump Dedede F-Air after the first one, and Squirtle can give chase after a ledge jump or ledge roll to knock him off the stage again. Dedede is also notoriously easy to footstool, so Squirtle can mix up annoying F-Airs and B-Airs with simple footstools. If Dedede is recovering, he's probably going to die, since Squirtle can pelt him with aerials until he's forced to Up-B, where he can restart the process all over again. Squirtle's D-Air has the ability to "kill" a recovering Dedede at as low as 90-ish%, as well; if Dedede runs out of jumps, you can D-Air him out of his Up-B, dealing significant-enough knockback to allow you to Water Gun the next Up-B.

The only thing Dedede has in this matchup is much better range on his grounded attacks and his grab. Dedede can kill Squirtle at low percentages, but he has no solid way to land those attacks if Squirtle just stays away from him. Dedede cannot chaingrab Squirtle, so getting the free 16% from a B-Throw is usually the best option from a grab. While Dedede has better range on his aerials, the fact that Squirtle maneuvers much better makes this point almost moot. It's usually a very long, since Squirtle can't kill well, Dedede is fat, and fatigue will set in fairly quickly. Still, Squirtle doesn't have to approach on the ground at all, which makes this a tough fight for Dedede. I'm going to say 60-40 in Squirtle's favor.

Ivysaur vs. Dedede isn't as bad for Ivysaur as one might think. A good Ivysaur will be doing everything in his power to prevent himself from getting grabbed, and he has good tools for that. Some lesser-known ways of doing that is short-hopped Razor Leaf and his incredibly-safe D-Tilt, which is sort of like a B-Air that doesn't move, but has good knockback.

Ivysaur will B-Air all day if it means that Dedede doesn't get inside...but it's a bit nerve-racking for both characters. If Dedede whiffs something on the ground, he eats a Bullet Seed, which is usually a free 30-40%. If Ivysaur whiffs something on the ground, he eats a chaingrab -> D-Tilt, which is usually a free 20-40%, as well as setting up for a potential edgeguard. As a result, it's usually a waiting game...and Dedede is better-equipped for it, honestly.

However, Ivysaur is well-equipped for killing a recovering Dedede. B-Airs essentially force another jump, and D-Tilt outspaces Dedede's F-Air/B-Air at the ledge while doing significant knockback. An Up-B from Dedede is just begging to get Up-Smashed by Ivysaur, as well, killing him at about 90%. Getting Up-B'd by Ivysaur is also a good alternative, and is a potent kill move.

And, while you don't need me to tell you, Dedede can edgeguard Ivysaur pretty easily with F-Airs and B-Airs. Simple and effective; if Dedede can use a throw to get Ivysaur off the level, he's in a good position to potentially take a stock.

I'd put this at about 60-40 or 55-45 in Dedede's favor, and that's mostly because of Dedede's speed (You don't hear that often, XD) over Ivysaur. This is mostly about who gets the other off the level first, and we all know how good Dedede is at that.

Charizard vs. Dedede is probably the most comfortable matchup for Dedede, because Charizard can't really space Dedede out via aerials. Charizard is going to be spamming Flamethrower all day, since Dedede can't really get around it. If Dedede is lucky, he might get a Gordo to go through the fire if he does it early enough, but otherwise it'll be shielded.

If he gets above Dedede, Charizard can't land on the stage safely at all, because none of his aerials are safe enough. Dedede should seek to get immediately under Charizard and grab him when he hits the ground. The only things Charizard can do is attempt to Flamethrower Dedede before he gets in range, or use Rock Smash as soon as he gets into range. Flamethrower is easily telegraphed this way, and Dedede should be able to roll behind and grab him with little problem. Rock Smash can usually be shield-grabbed, but if Dedede's shield is low, he might eat some damage instead. Since Dedede is a large character, it's not difficult for Charizard to space Rock Smash so that it deals that dreaded 45% from the shards. Either way, Dedede should be able to deal with a falling Charizard with little trouble.

Charizard can attempt to space you out with B-Airs, but any other aerial will be getting shield-grabbed. If Dedede throws a Waddle Dee while Charizard is on the ground, it's probably going to get powershielded, and Dedede is probably going to get grabbed.

Charizard's best bet for damage is going to be doing a F-Throw/B-Throw to get you off the level, and attempt to edgeguard. F-Air has massive gimping potential, so if a Dedede is recovering from high, you should try to land that for a KO. If Dedede is recovering from really high and you expect an airdodge to safety, a short-hopped N-Air from Charizard will always hit him when he lands. If Dedede is recovering from below, Flamethrower pretty much renders the edge ungrabbable, and if Dedede is caught in the fire, he's almost forced to take a large chunk of damage...and U-Smash is a reliable kill move around 120-130%. F-Smash is a given if Dedede lands on the ground from an Up-B. If you can outsmart Dedede, sometimes a D-Air spike is in order, as well.

Charizard is easy to edgeguard because of his large size and lack of helpful aerials while recovering. A couple F-Airs or B-Airs from Dedede will put him out of the game, or at least in a position where he has to land with Fly, which starts up another chaingrab. Charizard also has no reliable means of getting back on the stage from the ledge, as every realistic option can be shield-grabbed, so Dedede will take full advantage of that.

This is probably 60-40 in Dedede's favor. Charizard hates being in the air against him.

As such, the matchup itself is probably at about 55-45 in Dedede's favor. Hardly an easy fight, but it's doable on both sides if they play right. Mostly about who gets the momentum first.

 

[Vayseth]

What a really informative post. I think you give Ivysaur a bit too much credit in the match up, leaving it at a serious 60-40 in D3's position but then again, you have way more match up experience.

Do you have any videos? We're starving for good PT vs D3 videos.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

What a really informative post. I think you give Ivysaur a bit too much credit in the match up, leaving it at a serious 60-40 in D3's position but then again, you have way more match up experience.

Do you have any videos? We're starving for good PT vs D3 videos.

I wondered if I was giving Ivysaur too much credit, but I think it sounds right, since Ivysaur shouldn't really be approaching in the first place. He can sit at the edge and give Dedede a lot less room to raise his damage. It -might- be a bit worse at 65-35, but I can't say for sure, and if that's the case, that would put the overall matchup at 60-40, really.

As for videos, I'll try and get some replays if I can send them to someone who will upload them.

 

[Phiddlesticks]

Just get the percent lead with Squirtle and then air camp Dedede and use Water Gun to keep him away for the rest of the match!

80-20 Pokemon Trainer's advantage

 

[Steeler]

Just get the percent lead with Squirtle and then air camp Dedede and use Water Gun to keep him away for the rest of the match!

80-20 Pokemon Trainer's advantage

this man knows what he's talking about