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Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

Neon Ness

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:dedede: destroys Ness.

Nah, it's not that bad, but the penguin has the upper hand for a number of reasons.

Dedede outranges the
out of Ness on land; forward tilt comes to mind. I don't know about veteran Nesses, but personally I find approaching difficult. Fortunately, Ness can deal with Goons in a number of ways. Forward air and neutral air do the trick, normally. He also has the option of creating a PK Fire Wall off of a Goon as a means of defense... As far as defense, Ness also has short hopped down air walls. It's Ness' greatest defense in my opinion. The sour spot has an enormous hitbox and sideways trajectory, in case anyone wasn't sure.

Ness has to stay airborne in this fight. Unfortunately, it's nigh impossible for him to win by staying grounded. I find that retreating forward air works adequately in most situations, but the spacing has to be pretty much perfect. The transcendental hitboxes make this the safest move to get close with. Normally PK Fire is useful against heavy characters like Bowser or Ganondorf, but Dedede has a lot of lethal methods of punishing a missed Fire, so this move should be used sparingly if it all. What's more, should the Dedede DI the bolt towards Ness, he can take advantage of Ness' cooldown and initiate a chaingrab. Which leads me to my next point: offstage. Forward air is the best tool for fending off a back air wall of pain. If I recall correctly, Ness' fair outranges the back air, but I'm not 100% certain. Goons and Walls of Pain will shut down Ness' recovery pretty good. The important thing here is to keep Dedede away with neutral/forward air. When Dedede is recovering, I find PK Flash a useful tool, although I'm probably gonna be the only Ness who says that. Other than that, Ness has a hard time guarding the edge, what with all of the super armor frames flying about. He can't even punish the Up B when Dedede lands with a grab because of the stars that shoot out. Should Dedede cancel his up B mid flight, this opens up the opportunity for Thunda juggling. Because of his weight, Dedede can take a good deal of Thunder/Flash juggling damage if he isn't careful.

Uhm... I don't have too much experience, but I hope that at least helps a little.
 

Uffe

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D3 is tough for Ness. It's not every day that I fight some, but I have and there were times where I won and lost. I'm not sure if you guys fight like other D3's, but here's what I've fought. Good Farming, spot dodging, overly protective D3's. And before I start, let's avoid the talk about how easy it is to gimp Ness' recovery, because even Ness has a hard time gimping himself. Anyway, those are the kinds of D3's I've fought. You may think that it's n00bish of them to do that, but believe me, it works.

D3 is quite heavy, so going for a simple back throw doesn't work easily. Not that I always rely on that anyway. Though many may disagree, I believe this match up to be 60:40 in D3's favor. Of course it could just be the people I've played that make it seem this way. D3 has a very good spotdodge, but nothing that can't be struck. Ness has some pretty laggy attacks or attacks that sustain which make it possible to punish D3's spotdodging.

Goon Farming is annoying, but can be dealt with by Ness' PK Fire. He can create barriers of his own and get closer. Ness' PK Flash can also make good edge guarding when D3 returns. His multi jumping is rather slow. But this is all situational, so eh. You're probably better off using PK Thunder to juggle him. I've never seen a D3 main use his Inhale and I've had this happen quite a few times on myself. Of course I've come to realize that I can still attack him while getting pulled towards him. Anyway, D3 is hard for me to defeat and I don't know what other Ness mains do to win against him.

I say 60:40 for D3.

I forgot to mention that PK Fire isn't good for D3 since he's heavy. Of course I'm not sure if he has an easier time escaping it than Bowser. If D3 is at stage level, when recovering, it is possible for Ness to pillar spike him. Ness' recovery could be gimped by a simple bair or possibly a Goon. Just pointing that out. I'll probably come up with some more things as I read on.
 

AdmantNESS

Smash Ace
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Check out when the Ness's discussed D3(needs a revisit imo):

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5907686#post5907686

Ness is an aerial atacker, who's moveset supports getting people into the air for juggling and throws build dmg and knock into air.

Anyway, D3 needs to be careful of that waddle spam as Ness can absorb Waddle Doo's lasers for like 30% if he absorbs all of them.

Also, if Ness gets D3 in the air or inside his defenses, he gets aerially jugggled as Ness can chain his aerials in succession. And with D3's weight, its gonna hurt.

But that's only if Ness gets D3 in the air which means getting into D3's defense and knocking or throwing him into the air without getting grabbed or sheild grabbed. And most of Ness's ground moves knock someone into the air.

As for Pk Fire, if Ness does it from a full jump as soon as he jumps, the lag wears off when Ness is still in the air after he throws the bolt and he can do a double jump which means either another Pk Fire or another move. He can also do a rising aerial attack due to the properties of his double jump so if D3 gets hit with a lagless aerial Pk Fire Ness can drift over to him and do a rising aerial. Or if a D3 persues Ness high enough into the air, Ness can do an aerial Pk Fire. If Ness is too close, he gets grabbed of course.

Concerning gimping, Ness has a large 2nd jump and he can do a rising aerial during that 2nd jump as it curves. Of course, D3's bair could take care of that unless he does a rising fair early enough but it depends on the space. Another thing is not let D3's up-b land him on Stage as if the Ness camps your landing spot(even away from the stars) he can use a fully chraged Pk Flash, which is very strong and a Ko move at med/high dmg. Though its not that easy as D3's can alter his landing spot somewhat. Of course, if D3 cancels his Up-B on the way to grab the ledge, you're okay.

Ness can juggle d3 with up-tilt if he gets really close.

If D3 spot dodges(how good is his spotdodge?), Ness' short hop down aerial has a long enough hitbox to hit you which will get you in the air. same with both of his Yoyo smashes as he can leave them out for a bit. Also concerning Ness's Down Air, it is one of the most powerful spikes in the game next to Ganon's. It can intercept the part of D3's Up-B thats not super armor(on the way down). Another thing is watch for the tail of Pk thunder as it can intercept the on the way down also.

As for Pk thunder, it can only be canceled out if you hit the head of it which D3's aerials should take care of if the head is nearby but it depends how maneuverable D3 is in the air. The tail is the real problem. As Ness's thunder is faster(and harder to turn) than Lucas's, air or spot dodging will get you hit by the tail. Shielding takes of it unless D3 is in the air which means you have to atk the head if its nearby. Also if you throw a waddle when Ness sends out a PKT and that waddle hits the tail of Thunder, that waddle may stop moving and land. Ness can wiggle the Thunder around you to bait you or juggle(if in the air).

PK Thunder 2/Pk Missle/Pk Jibaku/whateveryouwanttocallit is a devastating KO move if it hits as the move is telegraphed in advanced. Its when Ness hits himself with the thunder and the Ness strikes someone. And unlike Lucas's, its a single strike with a lot of power behind it on startup until the later weaker part of it which can be intercepted. And it does have invincibility frames on startup. Since D3 is a big target, getting hit by this one is a nono.

Now, the only ways Ness can hit you with that move is

1. D3 is in the air(which he shouldn't be unless he is edgeguarding or ness kocks him in the air), and Ness is nearby and you get hit by the tail. Ness then directs the head of thunder back to himself and hits you while you are still stuck in the tail. Now can this only be done thru either mindgames or if D3 gets hit by the tail with Ness nearby in a position to redirect the head to himself at an angle.

Since d3 is a defensive guy(is he?), this shouldn't happen unless Ness gets you into the air and even then its still not always a sure thing as it takes The head of thunder hitting Ness at the right angle to launch him into someone that is stunned. On the ground, he can only be launched sideways and slightly diagonal. Just aim for hitting the head of thunder and there will be no problems unless its in D3's blind spot(does he have one?). Also if D3 stays grounded. And of course Ness is vulnerable when hes using Thunder.

2. You try to intercept Ness's recovery and you get hit by the tail and Ness hits you on the startup of PKT2, which is when its the most powerful. Of course that extremely fast back air of D3 takes care of that unless you are too close and get hit by the tail. Just know that most good Ness SHOULD recover with 2nd jump w/rising aerial unless hes too far away from the stage. Wall of pain or Dededecide or swallow and spit out under stage should work.

Any other way is too easy to intercept I believe by a good D3.

Ness has a bad grab-range (nice running grab or pivot grab though), but if he gets into your defenses and grabs you, he'll throw you into the air with any of them as all of his throws put em in the air. From there he will start his aerial assault or Pk thunder.

Ness''s Fair is a fast multi hit move with seperate hitboxes that Ness can use to atk and space. He can also do more than 2 when in the air. When spaced right against D3's sheild, it can sheild stab. D3's back air can trade hits with it if both are done somewhat at some time. depends on the spacing anyway

His Nair is a even faster get out move thats similar to Peach.

His Up-Air can be used to Ko or get someone even higher in the air.

Back-air can also Ko, and has some good knockback.

Down air can knock someone to the ground or spike really fast. And Ness can fast fall to the ground, wait until the get-up atk is initialted and short down-air you to knock you into the air again to resume his assault or just wat until get-up atk is over and then grab.

D3's aerials can trade hits with Ness's sometimes depending on spacing and who initiates them first. D3's vertical aerial moves has more range.

As for KOing, Ness's isnt a light weight. He's a near middle weight(slim) that's near to Mario. Like Mario=1.000 and Ness=0.980. Once D3 gets to around 120, Ness'll try to grab into back-throw, which is a instant ko. Since D3 is heavy, Ness should wait until D3 is around 140 or 150. Also, dont get grabbed on the edge when at high % and Ness's back is to the stage. Back throw will ko even earlier then.

So yeah, just keep Ness grounded and try to gimp once you get him off-stage. Watch out for his aerials as D3 is a big target and don't let him knock you into the air and recover by cancelling up-b by the edge. And watch out for that thunder. This is a 60:40 D3 advantage as D3's tools prevent Ness from doing too much to him but once D3 gets knock into the air, its a bit closer. Ground=D3 Air=Ness to an extent as D3 has a good down and up air.

These vids arent too bad in demonstrating the matchup somewhat.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOttqA0X9XQ
That one, the Ness stayed out side of D3's range and did aerials when close enough which juggled and sheild stabbed and he camped the ledge to avoid grabs. Though he still got grabbed and the match was close. The small stage also helped.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MJYNRfBe5do&feature=related
This one, Ness got edgeguarded when thunder was used and D3 used swallow when Ness's jumps were predicted. It was harder for Ness to stay out of range as the stage was bigger also causing more damaging chain grabs. Some of the times Pk Fire was used grounded and D3 punished the lag.

I know they are the same people but basically what Im getting at is that D3 can keep Ness at bay, but Ness can juggle him if he gets inside. And since Ness needs to get close to fight aside from thunder and fire its not in his advantage if D3 plays a strong defense.

These are old but nice too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlUPjSNzCEA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjKNb-tNb7w
 

_clinton

Smash Master
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The Ness boards thought it was 60:40 D3 when they talked about it the 1st time...but now it is up for debate again it seems...personally I feel it is even...but whatever...

D3 is Ness' favorite type of character for PK Fire and PK Thunder...and certain other air moves

D3's babies make good firewood, leaving him alone with a Waddle Doo is not recommended at all, and he can reflect the grodo as well (just saying...not like it means much though...however do note that if he actually does it...it will come back at you with 1.5x the normal speed and power...just giving info on his 21 frame reflector move >_>)

I'd rather see what other D3's think before I go on...
 

Uffe

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I hear that D3 doesn't like stages with curves. Is this true? I fought this tough D3 on Lylat Cruise and he kind of made an excuse as to why he lost. I told him that Lylat Cruise isn't exactly Ness' best stage, either.
 

Coney

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Lylat Cruise is hardly anyone's best level. Lylat Cruise obviously isn't ideal for DDD; the stage tilting can sometimes screw over our super jump (bump head, miss ledge on the cancel, etc). Depending on playstyle, the platforms may or may not have helped him--you are Ness after all, and while I usually love playing on platform levels, going against an aerial fighter might make the fight a bit tougher. It honestly just sounds like he was johning. And you know what we say about that.

As for stages with curves, did he mean the ledges? 'Cause that's all I can figure. I can't speak for every DDD, but I truly could give two ****s if a stage has a curve or not. Not like they're gonna gimp me anyway <33
 

Gates

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I hear that D3 doesn't like stages with curves. Is this true? I fought this tough D3 on Lylat Cruise and he kind of made an excuse as to why he lost. I told him that Lylat Cruise isn't exactly Ness' best stage, either.
lol Lylat Cruise isn't the best neutral for Dedede but it's not a horrible stage for us either. Sounds more like he's got a case of the Johns lol.
 

thesage

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I hate lylat >_>;

Honestly, if it wasn't for the cg, I'd say it would be in Ness' favor. Dumb cg. I played Azen's ddd in tournament (cp'd Delfino against him and he went DDD X_X). We were going pretty even until he cg'd me off the stage on my last stock.
 

Uffe

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Actually, Coney Isle, I'm talking about stages that have slants. What would be a good stage to bring up? Perhaps the first phase of Castle Seige since there is a slant in the middle? I mean something like that. And yes, Lylat Cruise is just a horrible stage.
 

Gates

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Slanted stages really don't get in the way of chaingrabbing that much. Moving stages like Rainbow Cruise and stages with not a lot of room to chaingrab like Norfair are. If anything, Lylat would be good for you guys against Dedede because you can platform camp, not because of the tilting.
 

Coney

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Actually, Coney Isle, I'm talking about stages that have slants. What would be a good stage to bring up? Perhaps the first phase of Castle Seige since there is a slant in the middle? I mean something like that. And yes, Lylat Cruise is just a horrible stage.
The slants would probably only impede our CG'ing. And if that's all this dude has going for him, he's probably not a good DDD.
 

_clinton

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Coney...what game is your sig from?

Still I must agree the only reason why D3 is even with Ness...is the chain

Its not like Ness is really at a dis that much if anything...given the chance he can easilly rack damage on D3 as well...and while Ness' recovery has issues with D3...do keep in mind that Ness can screw with D3's recovery as well...
 

_clinton

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"Enemies of the Crown: The Unofficial Dedede Matchup Thread"

CWUTIDIDTHER?
To be fair...other then the pics (god people they are so boring...you really should go and get good pictures for this thread) this is a nice thread...
 

sMexy-Blu

Smash Lord
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Messages
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To be fair...other then the pics (god people they are so boring...you really should go and get good pictures for this thread) this is a nice thread...
Yeah I'd have to agree... those pictures are too boring.

If you need help getting any cool pictures just ask me Gates. ;)
 

PKNintendo

Smash Master
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Umm yeah. DDD loses in the air, comboed easily, and PKF does some decent damage. But DDD's CG impedes it. In the earlier days of Smash, I thought Ness countered DDD but the CG makes it seem otherwise. I actually think this is even or slightly in DDD favor.
 

_clinton

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Umm yeah. DDD loses in the air, comboed easily, and PKF does some decent damage. But DDD's CG impedes it. In the earlier days of Smash, I thought Ness countered DDD but the CG makes it seem otherwise. I actually think this is even or slightly in DDD favor.
Funny how I said nah to the guy saying D3>Ness...but didn't really add anything else...I feel the match is even to a point...D3 having the chain grab is the only reason why he has really any chance vs. Ness IMO but whatever...I could compare it to Bowser...but I won't...
 

Vayseth

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D3 ***** ness. 60:40 minimum XD

I like this match up thread, it's a lot better than most of the other ones I have seen out there. Great job guys!
 

Raid

Smash Cadet
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I was reading through the strategy's against Falco and the vid as well and I might have missed it reading through everyone's posts here, so if anyone has requested adding this already my bad, but for guarding against Phantasm even when falco is doing it to the stage UTilt and BAir will outprioritize the phantasm.
 

sMexy-Blu

Smash Lord
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The Falco matchup discussion was LONG ago lol, If you want Gate's to add that to the OP you should of PM'ed him.
 

xoxokev

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IMO, the only difficult thing about fighting against Dedede is his annoying chaingrab and his bair WoP. Also, his ftilt can stop PK Fire in its tracks. Other than that, Dedede is one big target for Ness. Ness' fair is great to pressure D3, and once he's in the air, Ness can use PKT to juggle him. IMO this match up can be even, or maybe slightly in Ness' favor. If D3 thinks he can just wait on the ledge and bair when Ness gets close, be prepared to get spiked... srsly, I've spiked plenty of D3's who were trying to use that strategy. Also, this is very situational, but Ness' psi magnet can absorb the Waddle Doo's electricity and D3's stars upon landing his up B
 

CO18

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Umm theres no way this is in ness's favor or even even.

Saying even back to back logcally in a sentence. who can do that?
 

Gates

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You could say "There's no way this is in Ness's favor, let alone even."

Word choice ftw.

And to all the Ness players, I'm pretty sure we outrange you on the ground with ftilt, our bair outprioritizes your aerials (not 100% sure about bair though), you get killed off the top more easily than Mario, and it's easier to gimp you guys than most other characters. Those all give Dedede a slight advantage. The chaingrab (or, more specifically, the fact that you have no way to get out of it) pushes that slight advantage into a solid advantage. That said, you do have a lot of things that we need to watch out for, like PK Fire's unique air properties, bair and dair killing early, dtilt locking, and other stuff that I probably don't know about.

60:40 does not mean that you guys are pushovers and that you have no chance to survive make your time (WHAT YOU SAY!?). It means that, in general, a skilled Dedede who knows the matchup well will beat an equally skilled Ness who knows the matchup just as well. I feel like a lot of people tend to forget this sometimes and blow things way out of proportion, thinking things like Snake vs. Dedede is unwinnable for Snake, Dedede vs. Zelda is unwinnable for Dedede, or Metaknight vs. most of the cast is completely futile.

Sorry, just had to rant a little on that.
 

_clinton

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You could say "There's no way this is in Ness's favor, let alone even."

Word choice ftw.
Nah...

And to all the Ness players, I'm pretty sure we outrange you on the ground with ftilt, our bair outprioritizes your aerials (not 100% sure about bair though), you get killed off the top more easily than Mario, and it's easier to gimp you guys than most other characters. Those all give Dedede a slight advantage. The chaingrab (or, more specifically, the fact that you have no way to get out of it) pushes that slight advantage into a solid advantage. That said, you do have a lot of things that we need to watch out for, like PK Fire's unique air properties, bair and dair killing early, dtilt locking, and other stuff that I probably don't know about.
Do keep in mind that while you guys have an ok gimp game on us...we have one on you as well...do note that things like PKT and PK Flash will if done right sort of give an opening on you.
While we get KOed from something like Utilt a little bit sooner then Mario like you said...we also happen to be seen as someone with an average living rate...we also happen to be overall smaller then Mario...and overall more move able in the air...
You aren't really all that hard for using tricks from PKT and so on (which IMO happens to make up for the chain grab...the fact that all of Ness' tricks work pretty well is a pretty big thing).
You guys do out range us on the ground with Ftilt...but really what isn't out ranged by D3's Ftilt? However, Ness' air game and ground game are overall faster then D3's...and as far as air games go...Nair, Fair, and so on still work just as well...
 

Uffe

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Let's just go with 60:40, D3's favor, if not 55:45. Either way, D3 still tops Ness any day of the week. D3 isn't that hard to hit, but he sure does take awhile to KO. :( I used to hate D3 because of his outrageous bair and spot dodging, but he's a great character to play as. ;)
 

Coney

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Coney...what game is your sig from?
Little Nemo, son.

Some hefty pride from both sides. No, DDD doesn't **** Ness. No, Ness doesn't have an answer to everything DDD does. It'd be 55:45 without the CG, but oh buttons, we have a CG. It's 60:40, leave it at that.
 
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