Enemies of the Crown: King Dedede Matchup Thread (SERIN IS IN CHARGE NOW NOT GATES)

[bludhoundz]

I think this is slightly in DDD's favor.

Lucas outcamps DDD. However DDD shouldn't have too much trouble approaching. PK fire? Jump or Ftilt through it. PK Thunder isn't really a viable camping tool, unless edgeguarding.

They both rack damage pretty quickly. DDD is fat and easy to land chains of attacks on, but he can also chaingrab Lucas across the stage for a good amount of damage. DDD wins weightwise. Lucas wins recoverywise.

DDD can't really gimp Lucas easily, because of so many recovery options and such a great recovery length. Lucas can harass DDD with PKT offstage, but a well timed Up B will superarmor through it, and even if he takes some damage will return to the stage generally.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

of course

Zap jump- if lucas immediatly does a PKFire after a jump, it'll send him up about twice the distance of a double jump. the button input has to happen quickly. some of us set L or R to jump
Wavezap- its when u do a wavebounce combined with zapjump. so not only will you go up really high, but it'll be like u wavebounce your PKFire. This is beneficial because you can immediatly do a magnet pull from this spot.

here's a video. if that isnt clear or if something happens that you dont understand, let us know. someone else can probably explain it better than i
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvuUzJ-eOsw

Doesnt the C-stick need to be set to Special in order to be able to perform these? Last time i checked, i could only Zap Jump with the c-stick set to special's.

 

[Buuman]

I will say this match up is 50:50. Lucas can keep u at bay with pk fires...his air dodge is nuts. He can short hop fairs and nair, and side Bs...then mix and approaching short hop air dodge into you followed up with a short hop nair. This is tough when Lucas gets inside of you...he can cover himself with up tilts f tilts and jabs. Also beware of lucas' up b...it can be deadly. His f smash is his most dangerous move in my opinion. Also...his dair will prevent u to do anything from under him...not even an up air... This is 50:50 or 55:45 at most in D3s favor

 

[_clinton]

I think this is slightly in DDD's favor.

Lucas outcamps DDD. However DDD shouldn't have too much trouble approaching. PK fire? Jump or Ftilt through it. PK Thunder isn't really a viable camping tool, unless edgeguarding.

I think you seem to underestimate the air use of PK Fire with Lucas...

They both rack damage pretty quickly. DDD is fat and easy to land chains of attacks on, but he can also chaingrab Lucas across the stage for a good amount of damage. DDD wins weightwise. Lucas wins recoverywise.

Too bad Lucas is staying out of D3's grab range better than Ness does...

DDD can't really gimp Lucas easily, because of so many recovery options and such a great recovery length. Lucas can harass DDD with PKT offstage, but a well timed Up B will superarmor through it, and even if he takes some damage will return to the stage generally.

Actually when you have to Up special...I've got my Usmash for a nice hello and good bye...

Doesnt the C-stick need to be set to Special in order to be able to perform these? Last time i checked, i could only Zap Jump with the c-stick set to special's.

You can Zap Jump without the C-stick...but some of them do need the C-stick (Zap Jump to Magnet Pull for example IIRC)

I will say this match up is 50:50. Lucas can keep u at bay with pk fires...his air dodge is nuts. He can short hop fairs and nair, and side Bs...then mix and approaching short hop air dodge into you followed up with a short hop nair. This is tough when Lucas gets inside of you...he can cover himself with up tilts f tilts and jabs. Also beware of lucas' up b...it can be deadly. His f smash is his most dangerous move in my opinion. Also...his dair will prevent u to do anything from under him...not even an up air... This is 50:50 or 55:45 at most in D3s favor

Meh...I feel Lucas has the slight favor overall actually...

 

[Commander_Beef]

Beef, I thought you just posted that in the vid thread. That would have been fine. But in every thread, all at once. That's a bit much :/ especially the stickies. Come on man, don't get banned.

Yeah crashic! lol It's alright. It's already done with. Don't worry about me hehe.

 

[Gates]

Sorry for the late update. We can close the Lucas discussion now.
IKE DISCUSSION GO!

 

[Commander_Beef]

Oh, perfect.
Guys, when playing against Ike and hes recovering right below a ledge with his upB, immediately do F-tilt, but keep a little space so you don't get hit by the upcoming sword. It's amazing, and it's satisfying. It is very easy to time it too, right when he rises from saying "aether".
It helps a lot for this matchup and it'll work more than once. (Spam it at that moment!!)
I hope this helps!

 

[sMexy-Blu]

Ok I love this matchup.

DeDeDe ***** Ike badly. I think Ike is EVEN easier to gimp than Wolf.

The only problem is his Jab, Its really good and he can jab cancel into another jab really easy and that helps with to rack up damage very fast.

Ikes usually tend to use Nair when they are going to land but a smart player would punish that easily.

DeDeDe is one of Ike's worst matchups amirite?

 

[Jupz]

Ok this is one of DDD's best imo. Just one or two bairs off the edge and ike is helpless with his zero diagonal recovery. I find myself killing him on rediculously low percents. I've never played a great ike but imo the matchup is 70-30

 

[Kimchi]

Dedede is one of Ike's worst matchups. Even if we try to space perfectly, that obscene grab range that Dedede has will get us. Ike however does have his jab cancel which will crush Dedede on the ground. Ike can easily take a stock off Dedede if the Dedede recovers wrong by either edgehogging DDD, Dtilting the DDD, or pulling out a really strong attack if the DDD lands on stage. Ike has to play extremely smart against a DDD, because Fairing a DDD's shield will just get Ike grabbed with that crazy grab range. DDD has some disadvantages though against Ike. He has a hard time KOing. The chain grab will degrade from 8% to 4% if used excessively. DDD has his Bair, his Fair, and only his Utilt in terms of killing moves that are quick and fresh. I'd say for DDD, the best stage against an Ike is either Final Destination or Smashville, because it's a flat stage so there will always be CG opportunities and plenty of space to pull out a Fair or a chain of Bairs.. Overall, I'm going to have to say the match up is either 60:40 or 70:30 DDD's favor.

 

[Ussi]

Personally I think its 65-35 DDD but nvm that.

@kimchi, DDD does not need to kill Ike. He gimps him well enough. Course when it comes to killing, DDD is at a disadvantage since his utilt is too short ranged to hit a spacing Ike. And I think DDD's smashes are slower than Ikes o_o (at least pre lag is)

Ike can't space nair since DDD's grab range exceeds it. So Ike can only use fair and jab safety but he has to be spacing fair to the max.

Now the simply strategy of CG > gimp works... on noob Ikes. You actually have to THINK how to gimp Ike since he CAN do something about it.

Sometimes during the CG if you just keep dthrow only Ike will slide and grab the ledge. (Although I think you can ftilt before he grabs it, I don't remember well enough since I don't go Ike vs DDD much)

Anyways, Ike is off stage, you are gonna gimp him. If you go out too early, Ike will fair you before you get to him. Ike can only do one aerial when recovering so you have to avoid it then bair him and he's gone. But, Ike can also UAIR to stop you. Not only will it stop a bair, it will stop an AD > bair since it lasts longer than ADs. The 3rd thing is Ike aethers RIGHT AWAY not giving you time to go and bair him.

Oh and just fsmash aether, you'll even sweetspot it.

The thing about DDD though, he's PRIME spiking material for Ike once DDD is offstage and recovering. walk off dairs and dtilt pretty much get the job done. And if DDD uses Up B Ike can easily do some major damage. if DDD ends up landing on a platform, he's gonna get fsmashed.

And platforms help with this match up for Ike.

So yea, I think its 65-35 since Ike can space and spike DDD easily. Heck thanks to stage striking, I think it can become a 60-40 match up with platforms and slants (if not BF) with Ike's strikes being FD and SV to avoid long flat surfaces.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I personally hate fighting D3 with a passion, but then again, the only D3 experience I have is against Forsaken, and someone else, both were way out of my league...

Anyhow, the main things Ike has going for him are Jab Canceling and spiking. D3 is the slowest in the air, so it's fairly easy for Ike to spike him, and his super jump is spiking material as well. And because D3 is heavy, Jab Canceling can rack up a lot of points.

That being said, D3 is a pain in the rear to fight as Ike. Waddle Dees and Co. are annoying, the CG is annoying, D3's range that is nearly equal to Ike's along with about the same amount of power is annoying: it's almost like fighting a slower in the air, CGing, Minion Chucking version of Ike who also has a not bad chance of recovering.

I'd say most stages are 65-35 D3's favor, FD and SV are 7-3, and Pirate Ship is 6-4, simply because of how easy it is to spike D3 in the water. Delfino has walk-offs, so it keeps it at a 65-35 ratio.

 

[Ussi]

Pirate Ship puts the match IN OUR FAVOR since Ike will NOT get gimped and DDD has no spike. Course the spike doesn't matter, Ike has aether to protect him from aerials.

Super Jump thing has SA so it's not getting spiked.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

I thought SJ lost the SA on the way down.

That is stupid though that it has more SA then Aether. Ike needs the SAFs more dang it....

And D3 can still CG and tack on a lot of damage on PS, and when the wind comes, he can do a fairly good job of not letting Ike back onto the ship. Maybe 5-5 then, but I don't believe that PS puts it into Ike's advantage. D3 has too many things going for him.

 

[Ussi]

Well no armor on the way down but Can Ike put DDD in that position that his peak is on level to the stage.

 

[metroid1117]

A lot of the things have already been said... this match-up is more like "lolz, it's Ike."

All D3 has to do is to keep Ike away with Waddle Dee spam, then go for the grab for free damage. Ike cannot NAir, so all he can do is FAir; even then, Ike will have to be extremely careful, because D3 can still grab him if it's not spaced perfectly. If on the rare occasion Ike does get close, D3 can take some heavy damage; he doesn't seem to have any good get-off moves on the ground to deal with the jab (pardon me if I'm wrong), and his size makes him an easy target. Jab -> jab combo will do about 16 or 17%, jab -> kick -> jab combo will do some 20-ish%... he can also jab -> BAir if he's fast enough (but that's avoidable if you DI down and buffer a shield). The only thing Ike can do to get in is to mix up his approach with running in spot-dodges or rolling behind D3 to avoid the grab; he has to be creative, otherwise he will lose.

Off-stage, Ike can pose a major problem for D3 if he tries to come in low; walk-off DAirs are very easy to get off on him, and DTilt will spike him if he's not cautious with his spacing. That, however, can be avoided by coming up with an UAir. If D3 is forced to use his up+B though, be VERY wary of Ike's USmash and FSmash, since they cover an enormous area and do a lot of damage/knockback when charged. D3, however, can edgeguard Ike VERY well with his BAirs to gimp and FTilt or FSmash for Aether.

The only place where Ike has an advantage over D3 is KO power; BAir is very powerful for it's speed, USmash covers a huge area, and D3 is tall enough to be hit by a falling UAir. D3's weight and UTilt, however, even the odds and negate this advantage somewhat. D3 doesn't have to kill, either; he can just go for the gimp.

It's very bad for Ike, I'd say either 70:30 or 65:35 in D3's favor on neutrals.

 

[Ussi]

The thing about waddle spam. If you do it too close to Ike, he can fair you in that lag.

 

[Somebody Else]

Hmm... Doesn't Eruption near the ledge totally destroy any chance of recovering with D3's UpB?

 

[Ussi]

Hmm... Doesn't Eruption near the ledge totally destroy any chance of recovering with D3's UpB?

lol no... he can Up B around it..

 

[sMexy-Blu]

If the DeDeDe wasted all his jumps... Yes.

 

[YagamiLight]

65 : 35 for Dedede for reasons stated above.

Dedede can take a colossal dump on Ike for non-perfect spacing and it's hard to avoid the CG to gimp with Ike. Possible, but hard.

Main saving grace that makes Dedede not a hard counter is that close up Ike can really screw with Dedede using jab cancels and whatnot. Ike's also fairly good at edgeguarding Dedede using his plethora of options.

But yeah, everything else has been stated. Ike wins in power, range, mobility and priority but the CG is really a nuisance in this match-up due to it putting Ike in the place he hates the most: Off the stage.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Normal Ike's will abuse their jab in this matchup because it is what every good Ike player should be doing, and by several experiences, Ike's will rarely approach King Dedede, which will make the match very extensive.

 

[Ussi]

Ike's are forced to approach since DDD can waddle spam till the gordos go moo.

 

[Commander_Beef]

Ike's are forced to approach since DDD can waddle spam till the gordos go moo.

Heh, well it just so happens that I was playing a great Ike earlier this evening, and trust me, I spammed the servants. But he stood there anyways, shielding them one after another. I am sure other Ike's would do the same ;D

 

[Deleted member]

this match is unwinnable for ike. ike loses to shield camping, DDD has the best shield camping. autowin for DDD.

 

[Zip.]

this match is unwinnable for ike. ike loses to shield camping, DDD has the best shield camping. autowin for DDD.

Its winnable, but Extremely difficult for ike, the d3 has to mess up big time..
i'd say 65-35 Dedede.

 

[Mikey7]

Its winnable, but Extremely difficult for ike, the d3 has to mess up big time..
i'd say 65-35 Dedede.

65-35 is basically unwinnable

 

[Nidtendofreak]

65-35 is basically unwinnable

Nah, anything over 7-3 is unwinnable.

75-25 is "If you won, you're opponent was sandbagging."

7-3 is "Once in a blue moon it can happen without sandbagging, but highly, HIGHLY unlikely"

65-35 is "Hah, good freaking luck or they are someone like Kirk (when it comes to Ike) therefor it's an auto reduction to 6-4. XD"

6-4 is "Up hill, but completely doable"

55-45 is "Slight advantage, nothing a little bit of skill/luck/mindgames can't overcome"

 

[Gates]

Nah, anything over 7-3 is unwinnable.

75-25 is "If you won, you're opponent was sandbagging."

7-3 is "Once in a blue moon it can happen without sandbagging, but highly, HIGHLY unlikely"

65-35 is "Hah, good freaking luck or they are someone like Kirk (when it comes to Ike) therefor it's an auto reduction to 6-4. XD"

6-4 is "Up hill, but completely doable"

55-45 is "Slight advantage, nothing a little bit of skill/luck/mindgames can't overcome"

That is actually a really good explanation of that. I'm putting it in the OP.

Also, I've found that I'm most successful against Ike when I just forget about racking damage and go for the gimp right away. Does anyone else play the matchup like this?

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Forsaken did. CG -> Front Throw -> Bair/Fairx2 -> repeat 2 more times = GG. >_<

And cool, I actually worded that right. Just change the Kirk example to a D3 main I suppose.

 

[Zip.]

Nah, anything over 7-3 is unwinnable.

75-25 is "If you won, you're opponent was sandbagging."

7-3 is "Once in a blue moon it can happen without sandbagging, but highly, HIGHLY unlikely"

65-35 is "Hah, good freaking luck or they are someone like Kirk (when it comes to Ike) therefor it's an auto reduction to 6-4. XD"

6-4 is "Up hill, but completely doable"

55-45 is "Slight advantage, nothing a little bit of skill/luck/mindgames can't overcome"

Thank you for proving my point lolz..

 

[Ussi]

That is actually a really good explanation of that. I'm putting it in the OP.

Also, I've found that I'm most successful against Ike when I just forget about racking damage and go for the gimp right away. Does anyone else play the matchup like this?

That's how you are SUPPOSED to play like against Ike. The only reason DDD wrecks Ike so badly is because his CG puts Ike off stage so easily.

This is also why i said Pirate Ship puts the match up in Ike's favor. He can't get gimped there.

EDIT: You guys might want to add Pikachu to the re-discussion. He just discovered he CG'd DDD to 90%. with a buffered dthrow.

 

[Deleted member]

Its winnable, but Extremely difficult for ike, the d3 has to mess up big time..
i'd say 65-35 Dedede.

if you think this match is only 65% in your favor, the ike you played against to form that opinion is outplaying you HARD. This match is at WORST for DDD 90/10. This match is so bad I have to question if it was ever played once before the game was released so both testers involved would realize what a **** up they had created. This is at least one of the 3 worst matches in the game.

 

[Buuman]

I can't believe we're discussing this match up lol

100-0 dededes favor

 

[Tero.]

I 3 stocked every freakin Ike I've ever played.
I would say the correct MU ratio should be "lolgimp".

 

[Deleted member]

I 3 stocked every freakin Ike I've ever played.
I would say the correct MU ratio should be "lolgimp".

wow tero you play DDD? I thought we were friends

 

[Gates]

EDIT: You guys might want to add Pikachu to the re-discussion. He just discovered he CG'd DDD to 90%. with a buffered dthrow.

Added, but I thought they've known that for a while.

 

[Ussi]

Added, but I thought they've known that for a while.

Pikachus just recently learned that they were never buffering their dthrow. Like 4 days ago we took this seriously and started testing it and it worked to our surprise o_o


Also, Ike really doesn't need more discussion on nuetrals. It really is a lolgimp match up. You just have to get past Ike's jab and fair pressure which is not hard with your massive grab range.

However on stages where CG is hard/impossible or Pirate Ship where gimps don't exist, Ike will be a threat.

besides RC, what stages can DDD not CG on? I'm thinking Norfair..

 

[BlackKnight23]

Pikachus just recently learned that they were never buffering their dthrow. Like 4 days ago we took this seriously and started testing it and it worked to our surprise o_o


Also, Ike really doesn't need more discussion on nuetrals. It really is a lolgimp match up. You just have to get past Ike's jab and fair pressure which is not hard with your massive grab range.

However on stages where CG is hard/impossible or Pirate Ship where gimps don't exist, Ike will be a threat.

besides RC, what stages can DDD not CG on? I'm thinking Norfair..

Ike is less of a threat because of the speed he puts out by staying away from those gangsta smashes and coming back for that grab Ike doesn't really stand to much of a chance. Espiecially on the off chance Ike gets caught by a good chain grab following a Fsmash off the map then he is really boned.

 

[Ussi]

CG > fsmash is a mindgame therefore an invalid statement. Ike can easily use counter then DDD is boned. Plus Ike has faster smashes. Also Ike doesn't rely only his slow attacks, he also has a 3 frame jab that combos into itself.

Have you even played a good ike on a stage against DDD's favor?