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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

Gea

Smash Master
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You stay right outside of Marth range and let them commit, then punish. Doc has a few solid moves that extend fairly long away from his body and he's shortish so you have a bit extra time to get under Marth.

And I feel Shroomed. It sucks to work really hard in a MU vs someone like a space animal, learn tricks, do all the time, then realize that the MU boils down to them doing stupid stuff and you never making mistakes while also making hard reads.
 

Svetsunov

Smash Apprentice
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Apr 4, 2012
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Cupertino, CA
You stay right outside of Marth range and let them commit, then punish. Doc has a few solid moves that extend fairly long away from his body and he's shortish so you have a bit extra time to get under Marth.
So more Ftilts and jabs im guessing?
 

Gea

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So more Ftilts and jabs im guessing?
ftilts and jabs are good. Some Docs swear by dash attack in the MU. Bair also reaches forward well if the Marth doesn't space correctly and commits. Run under uair. Run under shield. WD OOS into jab/grab. The MU really plays off of Marth feeling too comfortable against Doc, because a Marth that just stands there pretty much shuts down your options (swats pills, easy to wd back punish anything you do, he has a great DD, controls platforms well, etc). So the goal in the MU is really to force Marth to throw something out and exploit that. I know that sounds really painfully obvious, and there are some more specific tricks and options to the matchup, but really that's what it falls down to.
 

Gea

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Pills are great if he isn't just standing there, I agree. Bouncing them over/under him is great.

Edit: Realized this makes it sound like I'm against pill spamming him from a distance to try to make him move around a bit. I'm not, it's just not very effective if he wants to stand still.
 

Svetsunov

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ftilts and jabs are good. Some Docs swear by dash attack in the MU. Bair also reaches forward well if the Marth doesn't space correctly and commits. Run under uair. Run under shield. WD OOS into jab/grab. The MU really plays off of Marth feeling too comfortable against Doc, because a Marth that just stands there pretty much shuts down your options (swats pills, easy to wd back punish anything you do, he has a great DD, controls platforms well, etc). So the goal in the MU is really to force Marth to throw something out and exploit that. I know that sounds really painfully obvious, and there are some more specific tricks and options to the matchup, but really that's what it falls down to.
Exactly what I needed to know. Thanks!
 

Max?

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I got some matches of me vs. the Moon coming out, should hopefully give some insight into the matchup for y'all
 

Shroomed

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^We'll see...

Marth IS Doc's worst match up

I hope you've all been holdin' down my character in here.
I bet Doc's cape, dash attack, and d-tilt are still being underused.
Marth is not even close to Doc's worst match up. Me and Pewpewu talked about it extensively and agree that Doc may slightly even win (although he only wins cuz humans aren't perfect, I don't like scenarios where people are perfect).
 

Gea

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I've been saying this for a long time. Marth isn't bad, but he definitely wins. Sheik is the same way except more Sheiks tend to be reserved which is what makes the MUs difficult. Fox can overwhelm Doc but Falco forces you to constantly make hard reads and his combos are just cake.

Shroomed I have been playing Sheik now as well. Kind of funny that's where we go, considering Falco/Sheik MU and all. Still feels so much easier.
 

Griffard

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Seconding the opinion that Marth is definitely not the worst for Doc. Sheik is definitely the worst IMO, then falco then maybe fox. I actually enjoy playing against Marth, Doc has quite a lot of tools in the matchup, even though I still lose it more often than not. Against Sheik, Doc just has fewer options.
 

Max?

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Marth is not even close to Doc's worst match up. Me and Pewpewu talked about it extensively and agree that Doc may slightly even win (although he only wins cuz humans aren't perfect, I don't like scenarios where people are perfect).
I agree completely.

I find Falco to be easier than Fox, but I'd rather fight either one over Sheik/Peach/Falcon imo
 

Redd

thataintfalco.com
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Fighting Peach with mario bros just isn't fun lol. It's not bad by any means but from my somewhat-decent experience it's just a pain in the ***. Would rather fight a spacie than Peach/Falcon.
 

Max?

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Fighting Peach with mario bros just isn't fun lol. It's not bad by any means but from my somewhat-decent experience it's just a pain in the ***. Would rather fight a spacie than Peach/Falcon.
That's really what I'm getting at. It's a boring matchup and tedious matchup.
 

VGmasta

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OK, maybe I'm wrong about Marth being the absolute worst for Doc. But Doc certainly doesn't beat Marth. Doc beats Bowser and Kirby. (And other characters obviously)
Maybe Sheik and Peach are Doc's worst.
But he's got tons of not-so-easy match ups in between: Falco, Fox, Falcon, Puff, Luigi, Marth, Ganon, Zelda
 

Griffard

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I sort of like playing against Peach, you just have to be patient. Honestly don't think Marth is that bad, probably like 45-55? Also why do you have Zelda as a bad matchup? I guess I've never played any "legit" zeldas, but I'm curious how it's hard for the Doctor.
 

poega

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Peach is doc's worst matchup if ur not mentally set up for it. If you are tho, it's pretty doable.
 

Gea

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You have to get into Zelda's danger zones often. She just happens to be able to space fairly well on the Doc. Kinda the same for Ganon. It's less terrible matchups and more ones that you have to play differently or know the MU otherwise their standard play will give you issues.

Personally I don't think Luigi is bad but once again, you have to respect their tools and know what's up.
 

Griffard

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You have to get into Zelda's danger zones often. She just happens to be able to space fairly well on the Doc. Kinda the same for Ganon. It's less terrible matchups and more ones that you have to play differently or know the MU otherwise their standard play will give you issues.

Personally I don't think Luigi is bad but once again, you have to respect their tools and know what's up.
I think the deal with Luigi is just knowing that he can scoot up at any time when he's in the ground, and staying out of his way when he's in the air due to his high aerial priority. The Ganon matchup is doable, you just can't get hit :p
 

Gea

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Ftilt stuffs wd in pretty well vs Luigi, and he kinda doesn't like pillspam though he can handle it fairly well considering his relative ranges. It's a MU of lots of poking and ftilt and single aerials.

I think the MU is pretty much even really. Ganon is dumb because our shield lets him tag our head with fair too easily. Hate that crap.
 

onionchowder

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Shiek and Falco are ******** hard. Everything else seems difficult but doable.

I used to have a lot of trouble with Doc vs. Luigi or Zelda, so I'd just play Y.Link and bomb camp them. Luigi is a janky MU, but I don't think it's that bad for Doc; watch his movement, abuse platforms, and be sure to land those gimps. I still have no idea how to fight Zelda.

Doc can duck under Ganon's Jab/Ftilt (as long as it's not angled downwards). I've also found that running Usmash is useful against Ganon/Falcon's sh-aerials.
 

Frisbie

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Yeah I have no idea how to fight Luigi. Zelda's kind of weird, but she's at least somewhat comboable, and she's also pretty slow
 

KirbyKaze

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Yeah I have no idea how to fight Luigi.
Pills stop his WD kind of. Not amazingly, but they offer some disruption. Not a bad way to police how he can come in.

B-throw and d-throw > bair (if they don't DI the throw well) can create good gimps setups. You could probably camp the edge ad constantly go for gimps if you wanted. Once he's offstage, it's not too hard to leverage advantage & cover options to the point where he's forced to recover onstage with an air-dodge or side-B or whatever, which then means free hit for you. Remember that viagra kick is actually really good vs air-dodge sometimes, otherwise try to force him back off with bair (if possible). If he's definitely gonna land onstage and there's nothing you can do about it, hit him with a big move (d-smash, u-smash, fair, f-smash, etc) or throw him back off.

Thing that beats Luigi hardest is a spammable, huge, strong aerial that comes out quickly that he can't really shield-punish or WD OOS on after (Ganon bair, Sheik fair, Falco dair, etc). That and Falcon / Fox's existence. Anyway, bair kind of works for this because it can push him out of range for his crouch-punishes, but its medium priority also opens it up to be cannibalized by his enormous anti-airs (u-smash, u-tilt, every aerial, etc).

In general I think staying on the ground and preventing him from getting the jump on you with a WD approach by whatever means you have (pills, spacing inside his WD but outside his f-tilt & ground attack suite, platform camping even [although Doc's not really built for it]) will probably win you the MU. Luigi can combo you pretty hard for seemingly no reason sometimes.

WD OOS d-smash / grab on his d-smash.

Jab sucks against him. Uair combos that are not tight are likely to incur nair trades. However, nair itself can be punished pretty hard if you bait it so keep that in mind.
 
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