KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
That actually produced a chuckle.
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Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!
- Thread starter otg
- Start date
Wake
Smash Master
Was that an actual question? LOOOOOOOOL
lol
The Good Doctor
Smash Champion
I mean, Ive thought things but I've never asked or talked to anyone about you in that way so I didn't know?
Lol.
Lol.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Say I happen to land in someone's shield with a nair, bair, uair, am I doing it wrong already or does Doc have shield pressure options?
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
Doc ain't falco, but a quick Jab or Dsmash after an aerial will often interrupt grabs or push the shield far enough away to keep you safe.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Ok cool then I gotta work on my L-cancels on shield with the Doc then.
If you hit the top of their shield, you're screwed. If you hit late, you can d-smash to push them away, jab if you think they want to grab, or pull a 2007 doc and just dash away and reset the situation.Say I happen to land in someone's shield with a nair, bair, uair, am I doing it wrong already or does Doc have shield pressure options?
It's important to l-cancel ofc, but you still gotta hit close to the ground to not get punishes super hard for hitting their shield (even with l-cancelling)
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
Yeah. If you're going to try to shield pressure after aerials, the best ones are late Uair and low-hitting Fairs. Spacing the aerial is usually safer, but an immediate follow-up can catch opponents by surprise.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I keep utilting approaches too early -___-
Max?
Smash Champion
Ur gonna have a bad time.
Shroomed
Smash Master
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
How does Doc counter cc? I'm tryin to run the jab->grab game but keep getting cc'd.
boss8
Smash Hero
then don't jab? just grab...
or mix it up...
Dsmash em n the face...
or mix it up...
Dsmash em n the face...
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
This character can be quite frustrating at times. Having a ton of trouble against Peach. I feel like even when I'm on my best game I can only go 50/50 with her or less. EVERYTHING is trades trades and trades. I try to keep the distance from her but she always manages to get in.
Some positives to walk away from playing tonight, didn't land as many times on the top portion of peoples shields. Or at least I was able to recognize this time when I did. Was able to hold chain grabs on spacies/falcon for a good amount of percent.
Also, when I used to play Pika it was really easy for me to waveland tech chase grab but with Doc I just seem to slide ALLL THE WAY OFF the damn platform. Any suggestions on that?
I have more to discuss/ask but I'll do that another time. I'll attribute my lacking knowledge of Doc to picking him up only about a week ago.
Some positives to walk away from playing tonight, didn't land as many times on the top portion of peoples shields. Or at least I was able to recognize this time when I did. Was able to hold chain grabs on spacies/falcon for a good amount of percent.
Also, when I used to play Pika it was really easy for me to waveland tech chase grab but with Doc I just seem to slide ALLL THE WAY OFF the damn platform. Any suggestions on that?
I have more to discuss/ask but I'll do that another time. I'll attribute my lacking knowledge of Doc to picking him up only about a week ago.
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
Hey shroomed what do you listen to when you play? I'm sure someone's asked before lol
Naota21t
Smash Champion
Dajuan listen's to Michael Jackson.
against Peach you wanna control space until you get her to a percent where her cc isn't so strong. full hop dairs are good for that. nair is is what is is. quick uairs are the ****, and so easy to combo off.
at low percents dont approach b/c cc beats everything. so dont try to pressure her on the ground early b/c its a losing battle. pills are good to control space.
against Peach you wanna control space until you get her to a percent where her cc isn't so strong. full hop dairs are good for that. nair is is what is is. quick uairs are the ****, and so easy to combo off.
at low percents dont approach b/c cc beats everything. so dont try to pressure her on the ground early b/c its a losing battle. pills are good to control space.
Max?
Smash Champion
I hate fighting Peach
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
I think this is very key. I'll run my normal Doc game once the Peach gets a little higher percent. And does Shroomed listen to MJ?Dajuan listen's to Michael Jackson.
against Peach you wanna control space until you get her to a percent where her cc isn't so strong. full hop dairs are good for that. nair is is what is is. quick uairs are the ****, and so easy to combo off.
at low percents dont approach b/c cc beats everything. so dont try to pressure her on the ground early b/c its a losing battle. pills are good to control space.
I have some Doc gameplay, but I'll post it tomorrow for critique. Doc vs. Peach/Fox/Shiek
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I remember Shroomed showing me what he listens to and it's based on how well he feels he's playing. I don't remember MJ being in there but it's possible I forgot, he changed his song selection, or he only showed me a part of his song selection.
Naota21t
Smash Champion
There was a phase I think were Dajuan listened to just straight MJ. This was before he was top in norcal tho.
Anyways I've had some talks w/ some ppl who are good with and against doc and I've come to one conclusion: Doc CANT' win against fox/falco if they know the match up well. You can't stop fox's nair shine pressure, same w/ falco pressure. You also don't really have the priority to stop the approach (utilt is decent, but it ain't marth's uptilt). If you KNOW fsmash isn't bad cuz of that priority. You usually aren't going to beat the pressure, but if you trade at least you're back at neutral and not being pressured. You can't beat falco's dair, don't even try.
Getting grabs is key, but its also damn close to impossible against good spacies. If the fox is dumb and still tries to nair shine you just jump when he shines so that you can instantly CC the shine and punish (you can grab if percent is low enough, cc dsmash *****). You also gotta mix up ur jab follow ups (jab to grab; jab to dsmash, jab to NOTHING). ALWAYS UTILIZE THE JAB. Doc has one of the best jab's in the game since it pop's up fairly well and has a long hitbox for a jab.
Those two matches are all gimmicks imo. As in you got only so many lil gimmicks and setups up you can use against spacies but that's really all you got.
Tho you do have a lotta nice *** **** against spacies. If you bthrow one of them THEY HAFTO die.
bthrow to full how pill beats instant side-b
bthrow run out there and nair (dj uair after if u wanna be falcon and sexy) is good against spacies that jump back a bit and then side-b
you get so much w/ bthrow, but you really got to out there
Anyways I've had some talks w/ some ppl who are good with and against doc and I've come to one conclusion: Doc CANT' win against fox/falco if they know the match up well. You can't stop fox's nair shine pressure, same w/ falco pressure. You also don't really have the priority to stop the approach (utilt is decent, but it ain't marth's uptilt). If you KNOW fsmash isn't bad cuz of that priority. You usually aren't going to beat the pressure, but if you trade at least you're back at neutral and not being pressured. You can't beat falco's dair, don't even try.
Getting grabs is key, but its also damn close to impossible against good spacies. If the fox is dumb and still tries to nair shine you just jump when he shines so that you can instantly CC the shine and punish (you can grab if percent is low enough, cc dsmash *****). You also gotta mix up ur jab follow ups (jab to grab; jab to dsmash, jab to NOTHING). ALWAYS UTILIZE THE JAB. Doc has one of the best jab's in the game since it pop's up fairly well and has a long hitbox for a jab.
Those two matches are all gimmicks imo. As in you got only so many lil gimmicks and setups up you can use against spacies but that's really all you got.
Tho you do have a lotta nice *** **** against spacies. If you bthrow one of them THEY HAFTO die.
bthrow to full how pill beats instant side-b
bthrow run out there and nair (dj uair after if u wanna be falcon and sexy) is good against spacies that jump back a bit and then side-b
you get so much w/ bthrow, but you really got to out there
iRobinhoood
Smash Lord
That was a depressing post^ lol
Shroomed
Smash Master
I definitely listen to more than MJ. I actually haven't listened to him for a while when I play because the music is too slow.
Smash has become so fast that I almost always listen to house now. Sometimes Trance if I feel I have a good groove going.
Smash has become so fast that I almost always listen to house now. Sometimes Trance if I feel I have a good groove going.
Max?
Smash Champion
I disagree, it's not easy, but it's absolutely winnable. Make your punishes count, space well, DD a lot to get grabs, uair is your friend, make your edgeguards count. I beat spacies who know the matchup really well (PC, Jman come to mind) all the time by just doing Doc stuff.
I'm more concerned with Jiggs and Sheik atm.
Yep
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Sheik is pretty silly vs Doc.
Max?
Smash Champion
Yeah, thankfully most Sheiks' are horrible
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's true. I can't argue on that one.
Max?
Smash Champion
I'm of the opinion Falcon beats Doc pretty bad, but at least it's fun and you can sometimes **** him.
VGmasta
Smash Lord
I wreck Falcons with Doc.
Falcon's n-air spams and dash dancing don't work against me anymore
Falcon's n-air spams and dash dancing don't work against me anymore
Max?
Smash Champion
The issue is Uair lol
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
Don't let him wavedash back and ftilt.
Idk how to stop it, but I'm pretty sure that's what he's gonna do.
Idk how to stop it, but I'm pretty sure that's what he's gonna do.
Max?
Smash Champion
Johnny's another fraud *** Sheik main. Just CC his **** and take advantage of the fact that he can't DI to save his life. He likes to WD back a lot. Don't jump, throw alot of pills and death combo him.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
can you DI out of doc's dair to avoid the uair, or are u just sucked in for the long haul and just better DI the uair cuz it's coming? boss hit me with it a lot in our set, and i couldn't figure out if i just needed to SDI better, or if it's just a thing...
onionchowder
Smash Journeyman
TheLake is in my Big House pool. What stages do I CP/ban against Zelda?
I'm pretty sure you can SDI out. Doc's Dair drags you upwards a little, so try SDI up and double jumping ASAP, or SDI down/back to avoid the Uair.
Max?
Smash Champion
I can't really comment, but from playing with Aziz alot lately I see him DI it so that I can't follow up with anything after the dair, and most of the time now I just land and move the **** out of the way cause going for an uair or another aerial gets me *****. Vs someone like ganon he might be too fat to do anything, or the room for error is way lower.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
yeah, he was approaching with fullhop dair, and i couldn't get my uair in position to beat it, and he would proceed from there. i'll be more ready for it next time, whenever that may be, and i'll work on it. do you remember if aziz just gets out and away from it, or above it?
Max?
Smash Champion
I don't really recall, but I feel like he would DI in a way that he would end up on the ground and mobile. We keep saying we're going to record our sessions but it never happens
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Tips vs Sheik?
I think Doc's pill is basically the same as Falco's laser vs Sheik in terms of functionality - just much worse. You use it to discourage WD back and get them jumping, shielding, moving forward, standing still, etc. Then do your combat game. For Doc that means a mesh of normals, shield, and crouch because the ground is your friend vs Sheik (for the most part). This is going to be a poking MU.
I could explain all of his options (as I view them from my matches with Shroomed) but at the end of the day, crouch d-smash / grab, juggling her with uairs into simple edgeguards, bairing at the end of combos to force poofs, and u-smashing OOS on bad f-tilts will probably win you the MU. On that note, throws are precious. Make them count. I get some people dislike CGing or think it doesn't work and that's fine I guess but don't waste them. Grabs lead to your damage, kills, edeguard setups, etc. If you take Sheik's jump, decide whether you want to try and sneak under something with a ground move or keep hobbling her with uair. Don't puzsy-foot; make up your mind. You don't have the priority to be allowed hesitation vs Sheik's combo break suite.
Sheik likes to jump with massive priority aerials so you need to know how to work around those. Uair and u-tilt can stuff fairs pretty well if you call them (you might be able to react but it's freaking hard so 90% of your wins vs fair directly will be from calling it or outspacing it as she's landing). Uair and u-tilt are also okay vs misspaced bairs but max-ranged Sheik bair is troublesome in general and probably the hardest part of her wall to get by if she does it well (it also beats your dair so if her back's turned it might be best to back off rather than come down with an attack). Other than getting under it with a poke (f-tilt, uair, u-tilt, even nair and bair sometimes) or eating it and CCing into something substantial (Shroomed used this one vs me a lot) I don't have good advice for it - I think it (and her grab) are her best tools vs Doc so it's obviously very good against him...
Fortunately, Swag plays mostly grounded and uses mainly tilt and DD grab for defense IIRC (which you can interact with in a variety of ways - sidestep can be a good counter to those if you get close enough to hit d-smash on counterattack). Don't worry about long distance ground needle camping. Just block > WD OOS and try to find your footing from there. She can't follow ground needles so it's just troll damage to try and annoy you. Also, learn to WD > FF edgehog so you can steal the edge from the planking. It's not that hard with Doc - he's got a good WD for it.
Oh, and don't jab her shield if she's any good OOS. Jab setups are highly illegitimate but can swing a match if used sparingly & appropriately (because a free d-smash or grab actually can do that). If they don't CC or jump out of jab setups then feel free to spam them though.
I think Doc's pill is basically the same as Falco's laser vs Sheik in terms of functionality - just much worse. You use it to discourage WD back and get them jumping, shielding, moving forward, standing still, etc. Then do your combat game. For Doc that means a mesh of normals, shield, and crouch because the ground is your friend vs Sheik (for the most part). This is going to be a poking MU.
I could explain all of his options (as I view them from my matches with Shroomed) but at the end of the day, crouch d-smash / grab, juggling her with uairs into simple edgeguards, bairing at the end of combos to force poofs, and u-smashing OOS on bad f-tilts will probably win you the MU. On that note, throws are precious. Make them count. I get some people dislike CGing or think it doesn't work and that's fine I guess but don't waste them. Grabs lead to your damage, kills, edeguard setups, etc. If you take Sheik's jump, decide whether you want to try and sneak under something with a ground move or keep hobbling her with uair. Don't puzsy-foot; make up your mind. You don't have the priority to be allowed hesitation vs Sheik's combo break suite.
Sheik likes to jump with massive priority aerials so you need to know how to work around those. Uair and u-tilt can stuff fairs pretty well if you call them (you might be able to react but it's freaking hard so 90% of your wins vs fair directly will be from calling it or outspacing it as she's landing). Uair and u-tilt are also okay vs misspaced bairs but max-ranged Sheik bair is troublesome in general and probably the hardest part of her wall to get by if she does it well (it also beats your dair so if her back's turned it might be best to back off rather than come down with an attack). Other than getting under it with a poke (f-tilt, uair, u-tilt, even nair and bair sometimes) or eating it and CCing into something substantial (Shroomed used this one vs me a lot) I don't have good advice for it - I think it (and her grab) are her best tools vs Doc so it's obviously very good against him...
Fortunately, Swag plays mostly grounded and uses mainly tilt and DD grab for defense IIRC (which you can interact with in a variety of ways - sidestep can be a good counter to those if you get close enough to hit d-smash on counterattack). Don't worry about long distance ground needle camping. Just block > WD OOS and try to find your footing from there. She can't follow ground needles so it's just troll damage to try and annoy you. Also, learn to WD > FF edgehog so you can steal the edge from the planking. It's not that hard with Doc - he's got a good WD for it.
Oh, and don't jab her shield if she's any good OOS. Jab setups are highly illegitimate but can swing a match if used sparingly & appropriately (because a free d-smash or grab actually can do that). If they don't CC or jump out of jab setups then feel free to spam them though.