Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno about best priority in the game. He doesn't have invincibility frames =P

Plus priority is such a subjective... subject anyway.

 

[St. Viers]

oh, really? Guess I'm out of touch--I know that dark cloud's anti-fox game is up thanks to dan, so didn't think he was using marth as much >_>

 

[JonaDiaper]

lets all start maining falcon shall we?

 

[SpruceTengu]

lets all start maining falcon shall we?

AUUUGH GET OUT

Go drool over Scar's combo videos. >: (


Annd to maintain relevance to this thread-- (and apologies if this has already come through) Good combos for peach? I've been playing against some friends of mine that play a decent peach, and, while I don't have trouble approaching (she seems rather pill-sensitive, at least alot more than marth) I'm never sure exactly what to do once I get there...

 

[JonaDiaper]

=[ i know you like the combos...everyone does.....

even if you hate falcon you must respect the sexy amazing videos...

and to maintain rel..whatever to the thread

why do people approach with u air so much if his legs are soo tiny. its not like he has falcons legs

 

[St. Viers]

because it's fast, you can autocancel the lag with the right timing, and it lets him kinda juggle people.

@Spruce Tengu: use pills, pills, pills, and then try and get her with f-air at like 90ish... also, caping takes her out of her float, which can be useful to mess with their approaches. If you grab her, just pummel and d-throw to watch them and try and provoke them into doing something punishable.

 

[Dogysamich]

^^

Peach isnt a character you specifically combo. For the most part, you want to keep her above you because she is floaty, and her d.air isnt the greatest thing ever. One thing you have to realize about juggling a peach is that you have to actually read when she's doing to d.air (or do anything to get out of the air), and to keep her up in the air doesnt mean you have to SH u.air. You might have be able to slide in FH u.air, u.smash, u.tilt, dash attack, etc etc. You goal is to just keep her in the air.

__

As for once you get in, that's kinda a funny thing. You dont specifically WANT to be in on peach. Peach has plenty of means from stopping you from getting in, and she has plenty of means of ****ing your *** up once you get in. However, once you get away from her, she cant really do all too much to keep hitting you so long as you dont go towards her. Now, that's not saying you must flat out run from peach the entire matchup, but it's another way to look at the matchup.

With that being said, you dont ever really want to be "in" on peach. Realistically, all you want to do is f.air.

F.air
F.air
F.air
F.air
F.air.

Why? Because in the event she wants to CC, she's going to get pushed out unless she's at low %s (cause she's going to block it or get pawnched in the face). So if you want to get "in" you F.air. Period.

Now, that's not saying dont use other aerials, but you have to use them with the intent of not landing next to her. I.E., FH D.air if you read her being >>>> _____ here in the air, b.air to stop her from floating in, etc etc. But you really should not be allowed to do something like n.air and land next to her (Hell, you shouldnt be allowed to do that to anybody, but peach is high on that list).

As for pills, because of how slow peach is, she has to be fairly close to punish you for pills. The only exception to this rule is if she pulls toad. And ironically, toad has more range than anything Doc has. So feel free to pill, but if she's not in shield, keep the "ace in the hole" in the back of your mind.

 

[SpruceTengu]

because it's fast, you can autocancel the lag with the right timing, and it lets him kinda juggle people.

@Spruce Tengu: use pills, pills, pills, and then try and get her with f-air at like 90ish... also, caping takes her out of her float, which can be useful to mess with their approaches. If you grab her, just pummel and d-throw to watch them and try and provoke them into doing something punishable.

Word; thats really what I've been doing, but I wasn't sure if that was too roundabout a route. My main tactic now is keeping pretty far away and using some complicated pillgames to maintain proper spacing and inflict alot of % over time.. and yeah, generally pillrushing with Fair and such. Also, I wanted to ask about peach's priority; how baller is it against Doc's stuff? I know the Nair is pretty harsh..

Edit: Ilu Dogy. <3

 

[JonaDiaper]

...ace in the hole?

or is it supposed to be hold as in grab?

also, tell me why you main doc? i know someone who mained doc but doesnt want anymore "up hill battles"..what keeps you playing doc? i think thats weird.

 

[Dogysamich]

Word; thats really what I've been doing, but I wasn't sure if that was too roundabout a route. My main tactic now is keeping pretty far away and using some complicated pillgames to maintain proper spacing and inflict alot of % over time.. and yeah, generally pillrushing with Fair and such. Also, I wanted to ask about peach's priority; how baller is it against Doc's stuff? I know the Nair is pretty harsh..

Eh, it's pretty much about hitbox location.

__

In a nutshell, to beat nair, dont try to challenge it on the same level as peach. Only exception to that is if you want to try to space a f.air, but you're going to trade cause her entire upper body is a hitbox for her n.air.

Her downair is pretty ballin too, since the hitboxes go around her feet.

And then her spacing with her ***. XD Peach spacing with B.air can be dangerous as all hell.

__

But the problem from her aerials isnt really any one in general, it's the floating that goes with it. Float cancelling is what makes everything so hard to deal with.


_____

@jona:

It's hole. *shrug* i know what im supposed to be typing but my fingers do something else. I dont really proof what i put on forums. XD

_____

Ok, so I started to type the WHOLE story of why I main doc, but that **** is too long. The story included ALL of the details of why I main doc. But, in true dogy fashion; im going to post the cliffnotes version, just to save some people from the dreaded green wall of text.

1) I started playing smash semi competitively (against my friends, 1v1 no items, nothing serious) in 02. I mained Mario and Peach

2) I lose interst cause the people I play graduate before me (they're older than me)

3) I say Im never going to smashboards because of the denial to the backroom (kind of a funny story goes with this. When I think about it, i think this is THE tragic flaw to my smash to this day, assuming I had a real chance to get in)

4) I graduate high school in 04. In college, I meet a small crew of people interested in SSBM (semi competitively again).
I come back maining Mario and Peach again

***5) Eventually, I go back on smashboads to see if Falco and Sheik are still "the best characters in smash". I notice Doc is higher than Mario on the tierlist. I start playing Doc to experiment and see why. This is realistically when I start maining doc.
- Yes, that is the reason why I main doc. I looked at a tierlist and saw him higher and wondered why. Ask me about any other character I "play", there are alot of stupid reasons behind them

6) A year or so passes, and I pick up more characters just to play (cause there's only a few of us, lets be real). One of them being Falco.

7) I keep getting good at falco, but the one guy who's left complains that falco is "overpowered". For fear of losing the ONLY good person I play smash with, I rarely play falco. This is the reason i dont main falco, yet another tragic flaw in my smash.
- The irony to this point is that the guy I played with mained jiggs, and played peach and sheik. But falco's overpowered (Not better than them, broken and overpowered. Lol)

That's pretty much where the list stops.

The only other character i put real seriousness with the intent of tourney play after this point were

a) Kirby, for teams.
- First tourney I went to and played teams, I teamed with Rayku. He asks me "Who do you main?" I reply "Doc." he goes "Oh, I can play Fox for fast matches and Ganon for slow matches." I didnt know any better, so I thought EVERYBODY had a fast and slow character. So when I went home, I was like "Man, I gotta come up with another character to be able to work with people. But I dont want some character I see all the time. Who's a good team character that I dont see all the time *goes to look up some bull**** teams tier list* .... KIRBY!"
- This is seriously why I play kirby.
b) Ness, Low tier main
- yo-yo glitch. That's seriously the reason why I even looked at ness for more than 3 seconds. Im glad I did.

__

And yes, that is the cliffnotes version of why I main doc. One more funny thing to note is, even to this moment, I still like playing mario more. Thing is, first tourney I went to I played doc and I did pretty well. (First tourney I went to was MLG orlando. Got out of my pool 2nd seed and beat 2 people in brackets.)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dogy... what the hell...? You make my character choice look legitimate.

 

[Dogysamich]

90% of my mains in any game I play usually come from dumb reasons.

I mean ****, I main May in guilty gear cause she looked like she was supposed to be annoying as **** and she has the squeaky shoes.

__

And hey, dont knock my kirby. That thing is feared and respected by alot of people down here in the south. I mean not really, but it's got some fame. From stuff like the random matches I play against people down to my first gigabits tourney when I got ***** in pools, so I just sat on the tv playing kirby for 2 hours beating everybody who sat down. (I didnt know FL at the time, so i cant remember if anybody beastly sat down, I know there was no shiz or speedn at my tv. XD).

 

[elvenarrow3000]

My only impression of your Kirby was in that one Ironman or whatever that you did where you like... dtilt'd a Marth off the stage, crouch canceled the double jump nair into a dtilt and he died. And I was like... wha... wah... wuh... what just HAPPENED?!

 

[Dogysamich]

*laughs* i think that was against tom if I remember right. That was a long time ago.

He'd **** the everlasting **** outta my kirby now, but he probably still hates it.

A good kirby is just a ****ing fly, it's annoying as **** and can get away from some dumb ****; but in the end it gets ***** by just about everything you can throw at it.

__

yeah, that's why i picked up kirby teams.
Ness for YYG like i just said.

I recently started getting back into ICs cause I saw the f.throw -> f.air bull**** in brawl and i was like "Dude. I forgot that works. Lemme see if I can kill people with it in melee."

Yup. :D

 

[eighteenspikes]

also, tell me why you main doc? i know someone who mained doc but doesnt want anymore "up hill battles"..what keeps you playing doc? i think thats weird.

cause he owns

 

[Dogysamich]

........................................................................................................................................................................................ a liger!

 

[Falcinho]

Does anyone use upB-cancels out of shield?

Is it even worth learning?

 

[Roman.]

absolutely not

 

[Dogysamich]

Actually, if you could do it consistantly out of shield, that would be the BEST time to do it.

Good luck with that, though.

There actually was a guy around here who could do it.

Really and truely, up+b out of shield by itself can be good, but its harder to get right than samus'

 

[eighteenspikes]

lol I am super good at upb cancels, like 80%, but they suck. just learn when to do regular up-b's. if you have platforms to hide under after they get popped up, up-b is extremely good at relieving pressure and neutralizing momentum

 

[Bullet Bill]

Why are you saying upB cancels suck? And why would you want to do a regular upB as opposed to an UpB cancel which when just upBing has about 5times the amount of lag as an UpB cancel.

Seriously though why do people think UpB cancelling is useless? It isn't, against fox or falco it will beat any aerial to shine and unlike samus' escape it's completely safe if you do it right.

 

[Dogysamich]

it sucks if you cant do it because you run the risk of putting yourself into retardedly bad situation. No im not trying to slam on you roman, i cant up+b cancel oos to save my life, therefore i dont do it.

And up+b is not better than up+b cancel, but i did say up+b is good in general because of the obvious; the hitbox comes out frame 3. But for up+b to be good, you have to consistantly be able to get away from people when you up b (which is why samus' screw attack is so good, it's almost automatic).

I guess in hindsight doc's isnt so hard to use, but there are situations where you cant use docs vs using samus' (i.e., near ledges on FD)

 

[Roman.]

When did you try slamming me? You agreed with me for the most part.

 

[Falcinho]

omg it's like almost impossible to do it when facing to the right =S
I'll let those upB-cancels be

wow today i played a ton of friendlies and i just love this character <3

Tell me what's the worst about the matchup vs Sheik
I play PAL, so i can DI out of Sheik's throws (well not at low% i think) and the uair is no killer move.
However i can still cg her forever =D
Iono, but i feel like in PAL Sheik doesn't counter Doc =O

I mean the Sheik i played against isn't at my skill level, but on the other hand i don't know the matchup very well.
I won all Sheik vs Doc matches today =D

 

[Dogysamich]

sheik cant chaingrab doc in ntsc anyway. I think if she can, it's like, some bull**** low % chaingrab that doenst really do anything.

But pal sheik.

*thinks* Still has f.air and tilts. And needles. So yeah, it's still pretty bad. And it's not so much of how far the fair sends you (since that got nerfed in pal), it's that she can lock doc down with f.air and f.tilt, properly spaced.

And then sheik edgeguarding doc is still just as bad, since she still has needles. One well placed needle kills docs recovery. Literally.

 

[St. Viers]

It's definitely worth learning, if you have the time to get it down. It's not super useful, but there are definitely times that it's the best option.

So yeah...I can't do it consistently, so I don't try, but using the upB on platform stages is too useful, and very underrated

 

[eighteenspikes]

if you have platforms to hide under, up-b cancels do not have a single advantage over up-b's. there's not much point in learning how to do a frame perfect motion out of shield that only works on the stage most space pets ban vs doc

 

[St. Viers]

^^ that was kinda my point... though it's useful on some of the counterpick stages too.

 

[eighteenspikes]

yea that wasn't directly at you, just a general response as to why I think learning WHEN to do up-b's is more important/efficient than just learning HOW to do up-b cancels.

 

[Tyser]

Is jab canceling very effective with Doctor Mario?

 

[Dogysamich]

if you mean the standard jab->grab/jab->d.smash/jab->other ****, then yes, very.

If you mean like, repeated jabs, then.. *cringes a lil bit* it can be, but not really.

I mean, because doc has 2 jabs before his last hit, you can do more to play around with somebody's shield, but unless you're behind them you're not really safe cause you're more-than-likely in grab range.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Can you up B cancel in the air?

 

[Roman.]

no but there is something you can do with the upb in the air

iirc, you do something to make it go higher but less horizontal or something

this was found out in order to do BtT with doc a little faster

 

[JonaDiaper]

Can you up B cancel in the air?

im sorry but for someone that knows alot about frames and stuff this is just a ridiculous question.

i had to lollollolllooolooolollolollolololololololololololl for like 15 seconds

 

[Tyser]

if you mean the standard jab->grab/jab->d.smash/jab->other ****, then yes, very.

If you mean like, repeated jabs, then.. *cringes a lil bit* it can be, but not really.

I mean, because doc has 2 jabs before his last hit, you can do more to play around with somebody's shield, but unless you're behind them you're not really safe cause you're more-than-likely in grab range.

None of that. Jab cancel = jab, crouch, jab, rinse, repeat. It's just using your first jab except continuously and its super fast (at least with Samus). Im a Samus main so I was just wondering how effective it is with Doctor Mario. If you dunno what Im talking about its cool though, Ill probably test it out next time I play games.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

=( I have to learn stuff from SOMEWHERE! I don't just randomly know this stuff... I looked it up from all over the Intertubes.

EDIT: Jab cancels are overrated, in my opinion. Check it out.

Total: 17
Hit: 3-4
Window of the swing: 3-25
Swing starts: 12

That's Samus' jab frame data. You can technically save eight frames by jab canceling, but that's only if you were going to jab again. Which means you still have fourteen frames of lag after the jab - meaning seventeen frames of lag between jabs because you have to crouch for a frame - which is more than enough time to get shieldgrabbed.

Let's look at Doc's. Man this is a long edit.

Total: 15
Hit: 2-3
Window of the second punch: 3-25
Second punch starts: 14 (or later)

Thirteen frames of lag after the jab. If you jab cancel with only the first jab, you've got fifteen frames of lag between jabs, which is still shieldgrabbable. If you use the second jab...

Total: 18
Hit: 3-4
Window of the kick: 2-25
Kick starts: 17

You have fourteen frames of lag between the jabs, which, again, can be shieldgrabbed, although the window to do so is one frame smaller. After the jab, you have fifteen frames of lag, so if you jab cancel, you've got seventeen frames of lag between the second jab and the next first jab. Still shieldgrabble.

In conclusion, jab to dsmash or jab to grab.

 

[JonaDiaper]

your definitely not the same person that argued with me using frame data to prove your ish.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

It's because I don't want to have to search up if it's possible to up B cancel in the air.

 

[Dogysamich]

None of that. Jab cancel = jab, crouch, jab, rinse, repeat.

I said repeated jabs, that's what i meant.

It's kinda useful, but not really for doc cause pretty much anytime you're in range to do it you're in range to get grabbed, and the shieldstun from his jab isnt anything special.

Is it as useful as samus's? No.

 

[JonaDiaper]

that edit u did is more like it.

thats something that you just dont ask, thats like me going to the falcon boards asking if you can cancel a falcon punch