Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[elvenarrow3000]

than that.

Well yeah, but if I'm across the stage and need to get to the edge quickly, I can't wavedash... Marth's wavedash isn't quite that long.

Yeah, I figure I should probably learn to turnaround waveshine... kinduva pain, and you can't use it out of a dash, which is also annoying.

 

[St. Viers]

yeah you can....why couldn't you?

 

[eighteenspikes]

I tend not to dj out of sh uairs because the timing is pretty strict; I'd rather just ff l-cancel uairs and have consistency over that little extra bit of control

 

[Roman.]

if im juggling with uairs, i just let it auto-cancel, just a bad habbit i guess

 

[Bailey]

How do you guys finish off the Chain Grab on Fox and Falco?

 

[Dogysamich]

You can either

1) u.air -> d.smash.
2) f.smash
3) uncharged u.smash -> f.air
4) u.tilt (if they're not DIing)
5) throw them *****s off the stage.


__

And by "finish the chaingrab" im assuming you mean when the chaingrab actually ends (around 55%)

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Dunno, I'd be facing the wrong way... and too far to wavedash there... I guess I could turn around and wavedash all the way over, but that seems like it'd be slower than just running and bairing.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

uair > dsmash is what I tend to use. I never tried usmash > fair, sounds sexy

 

[otg]

At around 55-60, if they don't DI/softDI left or right you get a free fsmash. If they DI hard to the left or right, Uair->dsmash/fsmash based on your spacing, although connecting the Uair->fsmash is sex.

 

[eighteenspikes]

You can only finish with wd-f/dsmash or fairs on people who just DI hard away. Uairs and usmashes send them too far to follow up if both the throw and the hit thereafter are di'ed hard in either direction. The only reason uair to f/dsmash works is because people expect a hard hit after the throw and start to survival-DI towards you; some expect a combo and will escape the finisher. Try to predict the opponent's DI and punish accordingly.

 

[Dogysamich]

uair > dsmash is what I tend to use. I never tried usmash > fair, sounds sexy

i honestly didnt think anybody else did use it.

I randomly thought of it one day about a month or so ago because i was trying to see how long of a guarenteed string you could get on FFers after a chaingrab.

If you do an upsmash at the right time, it does the one where they're otg (lol otg), so they dont go flying away, and it gives you enough time to jump up and throw a f.air at em.

Of course the fair makes it so they wont really go anywhere, but it's a jump from 55-90ish.

 

[otg]

origional tool gangsta baby

H00ker with a *****

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Guys how does Doc (or Mario) beat Marth?
Since marth outranges, outspeeds and has less lag (in general) then Doc I really can't think of a way for doc to get around his range lol
Like if a marth wiffs a fair or something, how the hell would you punish that as doc

 

[SpruceTengu]

Fairs have so little lag its really hard to punish them in the first place. I find alot of the slower moves are easy, like tilts and smashes, especially when the Marth is smart enough to leave room for a second Fair before they hit the ground. One way I've used is to wave dash in after they wiff it by WD into a shield in case of a second aerial, then be sure to shieldgrab promptly so they dont get you first. The spacing might be a bit of a *****, given that Doc's grabrange is atrocious, but this is generally safe from mad aerial spam. Also, generally speaking, I like to get some heavy pillspam along with smart spacing to wait until a marth F's up. It's often way too hard to get in on them without it, but if you're good at pressure play you can really make it hurt when they do.

Hope that helps : )

 

[St. Viers]

um, you can punish whiffed f-airs with f-tilt, depending on how badly they whiffed, or b-air.

I generally just pill spam when they are far away, jab at them when they are close up, and run when they get into their optimal range... Seems to work. Also, I try to CC their approaches if they like coming in through the air, and baiting grabs if they stay on the ground.

Yeah, it's a painful matchup, but not impossible to win.

 

[otg]

Yeah Marth ***** Doc pretty hard but here are a few more things:

- CC his *** at low percents w/ dsmash and try to get him off the stage all the time, your edgeguard game > Marth's recovery.
- Wavedashing with your shield up is a good way to get in, same thing with wavedash -> spot dodge.
- Pill spam, yeah he can swat pills away but atleast you are controlling the pace of the match. That being said, let him approach you, let him take the first swing.
- Don't approach with Nairs, don't roll a lot, try to get in close.....
- If he whiffs an Fsmash, or Fsmashes into your shield, you WD in and get a free Dsmash or Grab.


Just don't get greedy, force him to approach, read his mistakes and try to get him off the edge for low percent edgeguards. You NEEEED to keep your invincibility frames on the ledge to make edgeguarding Marth possible.

 

[Dogysamich]

im feelin a little too lazy to type my marth advice, but i'll give you cliffnotes.

1) CC only works if they space poorly. M2k let one of the biggest cats out of the bag about doc vs marth. As long as marth properly spaces aerials (more specifically n.air) doc cant do ANYTHING vs the aerials. You cant CC d.smash cause you're out of range.

2) Speaking of aerials; as long as he's l cancelling them, Dont cant really do alot to punish them in general.

3) Contrary to what people think, you initially can make marth approach you because of pills. However, once you get just outside of his tip range, you have to approach him. (for those who like to go with the initiave-response theory of fighters.)

4) Unless Marth will let you, you have to pill to approach him, and then figure out what he's going to do after he deals with pill. As long as he has room, his best response to pills will be to move (because he stays in neutral, never entering ANY recover frames).

5) In spite of what some people try to say, you can combo marth. You can u.air juggle him. But whatever God you pray to wont save you if you try to cheat marth and start early.

6) You can d.throw -> f.air him. 90-110% or so is SH, 110%-135% or so is FH. Something like that, i dont remember numbers, i just know "ARound 100%, d.throw -> f.air -> profit."

7) And the absolute most imporant cliffnote i can give you about marth iiiiiiiiiis.

If marth ever. EVER. ever. F.smashes and f.tilts and you block, you are allowed to wavedash in. If it's tipped, i think you're guarenteed a wavetilt (im not exactly sure, i never think about this situation and i'll have to try it). However, if it's untipped, you are guarenteed a wave(down)smash.

EVERYTIME MARTH F.SMASHES AND YOU BLOCK IT, YOU WAVESMASH
EVERYTIME MARTH F.SMASHES AND YOU BLOCK IT, YOU WAVESMASH
EVERYTIME MARTH F.SMASHES AND YOU BLOCK IT, YOU WAVESMASH
EVERYTIME MARTH F.SMASHES AND YOU BLOCK IT, YOU WAVESMASH
__

That's it for my marth cliffnotes. I'll type more about it later if needed... and when I stop being lazy.

 

[St. Viers]

just to elaborate on a couple of dogy's points:

1/2)--unless he uses d-air to approach, or unless he messes up spacing, don't try and punish his aerials. However, remember that messing up their spacing can range from pilling to DDIng, to simply walking, which is actually better than people think, as you have the most options. However, it's still marth your dealing with, so I'm not saying that these strategies are going to always help.

3) This is really important, because most people don't think about it. But at a certain point, marth is going to work his way into the range he is good at, if you simply play completely defensive. While he is approaching that range, pilling is great, as his means of getting there is limited. However, you need to be able to take advantage of him before he gets where he wants.

5) I used to do this alot--tried to do stuff out of grabs at really low percents--it doesn't work, and ends up with you getting punished. Pretty much, at around 60% you can start d-throw, rising d-air, to ffed up air, but before that, nothings guaranteed (if there is, please let me know--I can't remember, and don't have marths to play with much anymore).

7) Can't stress it enough--he's hard enough to punish, so why let you few opportunities slip away?

 

[Roman.]

nahhh you guys are missing the most important and useful things to do against marth

trade hits

approach with bairs, nairs, dairs, whatever

just exchange hits until someone takes advantage of the situation

it's really the only way to deal with high level marths

that and f/utilt

those tilts will work wonders

but yeah, TRADE HITS!!

 

[otg]

Trade hits? wtf, a good Marth won't even let you get close enough to trade hits.

 

[Roman.]

marths can't do anything about it

i mean i guess ocassionally you'll get utilted or something without trading hits but if they miss then you get a free hit

 

[St. Viers]

Roman., There are 2 things, trading hits and clashing. Trading hits involves both hitboxes missing the other hitbox while still hitting the character's body. Clashing is when hitboxes collide, while neither of them (or both of them) touch the opponents body. It's almost impossible to trade hits with marth, as his sword will usually hit you first. Clashing, until you get inside his range, it simply impossible, for the most part.

B-airing though his f-air *might* be the most realistic, as it has the shortest range of any of his sword-like attacks, but that's probably it. However, once you get into that range, yeah, try and clash as much as possible, as your jabs are quicker than anything but his upB

 

[otg]

Ah, well clashing makes sense, but trading hits does not. Ftilt is really good for that, but you still have to watch out for Marth's aerial game because most of those wont clash and will most likely beat you out.

 

[Roman.]

ummm yeah so am i thinking clashing? hmmm never heard of it called that way.

so clashing is when they ting but both characters still get hit? learn something new everyday

edit: you'll get beat out less than 'clashing'

 

[St. Viers]

clashing is when they ting. trading is when they both get hit. When there is a ting and one gets hit, it's due, iirc to multiple hitboxes.

 

[Roman.]

k so im sticking to what i first said, trading hits ^.^

 

[Dogysamich]

I'd love to see you make this work.

 

[otg]

Agreed. Trading hits is not possible bro because Marth has... DISJOINTED HITBOXES. You must be thinking about clashing.

 

[Roman.]

worked on kdj a couple weeks ago

edit: that may have sounded wrong.... it was the only thing that worked on kdj is what i meant to say

 

[St. Viers]

well, to be honest, he's much more used to characters with less range, so his spacing w/ marth be a bit off >_>

 

[Dogysamich]

well, to be honest, he's much more used to characters with less range, so his spacing w/ marth be a bit off >_>

*slap*

you say that like KDJ doesnt play marth.

___

And roman, gets some vids up of this.

Im not trying to be an *** and sound like "OMG YOU'RE WRONG THERE'S NO WAY THIS CAN WORK", but i honestly dont believe this works and i'd love to see you prove us (read: me) wrong.

 

[St. Viers]

@Dogy, just saying.

Also, he plays a much more high risk, high reward >_>

 

[otg]

(read: me too).

KDJ's Marth is ****ing good. Vids? Even if it's not against KDJ, I'd like to see this in action.

 

[St. Viers]

^^to be honest, I have beaten a marth this way >_> like so but neither of us were that good.

@otg--I know he's good, but that's because he's good, not because of particularly good spacing with marth. That's all I'm saying. Trying to trde hits with someone like M2K would be much harder, just because he spaces like a machine >_>

 

[Roman.]

first of all, kdj > m2k

second, just to avoid confusion, in St. Viers' video, at 0:07, that's what I'm talking about

third, i wish i had videos but it was at a tournament and no tournament matches were recorded

fourth, this only worked on his marth and im just guessing (so don't stab me for saying this) that it's because marth has low priority moves or something

fifth, St. Viers, you're wrong in your last 3 posts XDDD

sixth, @ 3:34 EVERYONE LOOK it's like slow-mo matrix **** (marth's ftilt)

 

[Falcinho]

wow, after having watched shroomed vs P i just HAD to pick up Doc again as my quartary or sth.

I mained him for a while but i felt too limited with him.

Now that i saw shroomed play i find fox trotting really useful for him and Mario =O

I mean, you just run up/behind someone and then fsmash them, how awsome is that =D

 

[otg]

first of all, kdj > m2k

second, just to avoid confusion, in St. Viers' video, at 0:07, that's what I'm talking about

Ahh ok, after watching the vid I feel you... but I don't see how you could pull off things like that consistently throughout a match. That Marth's spacing was pretty awful and it's not reliable enough to change the matchup imo. Useful to throw out every so often to get inside yes; game changing no.

Also, m2k > KDJ RIGHT NOW! If KDJ had kept playing instead of retiring I think he'd be ****** the pants of M2k but right now I have a hard time believing he's actually better than him.

 

[Roman.]

right now, kdj > m2k

he's just been hiding o.O

but he's still out there playing, and winning

i might be playing him this week so i'll get some vids marth v doc

 

[St. Viers]

um, roman.
He uses shiek, and fox, and pichu more aften than marth, ALL of whom have less range than marth.
POST 1
He gets away with random things other top players don't do.
POST 2
His awesomeness isn't due to knowledge of Marth, but rather his own skills
POST3

How are any of the above false?

I never said M2K was better--I said that he spaces better with marth. I personally dan is much better.
Also, marth has insane priority, the best in the game, so that isn't the reason.

 

[Roman.]

XDDD = sarcasm

um St. Viers, he has been using marth since he came back, not shEIk or fox, marth