Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Dogysamich]

And yeah, athena is cooler.. I'm going to be switching this to Ciel from MB as soon as I reinstall my tablet driver though.

What!?!

CIEL?!?!

Again, I will not allow it.

Maids, or GTFO. :D

 

[ranmaru]

I agree about using tilts instead--that was my point.

And yeah, athena is cooler.. I'm going to be switching this to Ciel from MB as soon as I reinstall my tablet driver though. I've kept this because I've wanted to see if anyone noticed that I didn't even spell viers right. So far no one has >_>

Haha I notice a t?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Are we talking about sigs? I usually have them off.

 

[otg]

So I think I'm retiring my Doc from tournament play. I've been playing Falco forever, and recently I picked up Fox and I love him. I'm sick of the uphill battles, and I hate the fact that I have to rely on my opponents making mistakes, while I'm getting outcamped/outspaced/edgeguarded/outspeeded. **** that ****.

I'm def going to keep playing the Doc because I love him, and hell I will probably use in tourney here and there and of course in friendlies, but I will no longer be using him almost exclusively in tourney.

 

[ranmaru]

Hmmm, thats too bad, but glad you'll still play him in Friendlies. :3 Hopefully I might get to play you sometime, I am moving to Philly soon, and might make trips to NY sometimes. : >

 

[Dogysamich]

Are we talking about sigs? I usually have them off.

That's where it started, yeah. But I really am talkin about the characters.

The KoF characters pretty much change from game to game, but I will admit that Ciel is pretty ****in busted in MB:AC. Hisui can hold her own, but Kohaku's got nothing beyond her retardedly good range game (RETARDEDLY GOOD, she's basically the marth of MB:AC, but is one of the lowiest tier characters for other reasons ) Im waiting to get my hands on MB:AA and see how the Maids pan out with the new moon phases.

So I think I'm retiring my Doc from tournament play. I've been playing Falco forever, and recently I picked up Fox and I love him. I'm sick of the uphill battles, and I hate the fact that I have to rely on my opponents making mistakes, while I'm getting outcamped/outspaced/edgeguarded/outspeeded. **** that ****.

I'm def going to keep playing the Doc because I love him, and hell I will probably use in tourney here and there and of course in friendlies, but I will no longer be using him almost exclusively in tourney.

Im not going to sit here and be a doc fan boy and be like "OMG NO DONT QUIT DOC". Hell, that's smart. Look at what most of the pro doc players have done.

I will tell you this, save your doc for jiggs. Trust me.

 

[otg]

Dogy your my boy, and as usual your advice is great. I love the Doc, he's been my main since 2005, but I just win more using Top/High tiers. I'm def going to keep playing him and getting better with him because I love him that much. I'm just not going to main him exclusively and I'll probably use him for random matchups (Jiggly/Icies/Ganon/low tiers/marth maybe?). And don't fret, I will still be here all the time because the Doc boards the ****.

 

[eighteenspikes]

am I the last tourney doc purist??

 

[St. Viers]

me, when I go ^_^

@dogy: Ciel is a beast, in MB_AC ^_^ also, she was the only char I could play instinctively--something about her versatility with keys, and her 4C. I've seen crazy maid stuff, but can't play either of them >_>

Also, I that that ciel was S or A tier on some really influential Japanese tier list...or were you talking about the maids?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I... gah... I don't understand fighting games at all. I still remember when you guys were talking about Soul Calibur and were all... is so and so's 358935bk+a still overpowered? Followed by a lot of acronyms and jargon.

Does Doc do well against Jigglypuff? Currently all I can do against Jigglypuff is go Fox and pray that I can get a 60%ish grab before I get space animal slayered/WoP'd.

 

[otg]

Doc's pills annoy the hell out of Jiggly. Camp her the **** out and don't think twice about it. Those pills add damage fast and she really can't do too much about them. You KO her pretty easy. Just be very careful and space yourself really well and Doc ***** Jiggly hard.

 

[Dogysamich]

Dogy your my boy, and as usual your advice is great. I love the Doc, he's been my main since 2005, but I just win more using Top/High tiers. I'm def going to keep playing him and getting better with him because I love him that much. I'm just not going to main him exclusively and I'll probably use him for random matchups (Jiggly/Icies/Ganon/low tiers/marth maybe?). And don't fret, I will still be here all the time because the Doc boards the ****.

Oh, trust me. Im not one of those character fanboys who's like "omg this character can do anything". Now dont get me wrong, Im not saying in Doc has impossible matchups. Retardedly hard, yes; impossible no. But Im not going to fault you for wanting to play better characters. It makes sense. If i would stop being so scared to pull out my falco more (or get off my *** and clean up my fox) i'd do it myself.

But yeah, keep doc for jiggs, trust me. If you drop a game to a jiggs who rests the **** out of you, or ledgestalls you; doc stops that. (Unless you were getting rested off from tech chasing). Doc vs ICs is better than falco too, i think. I could be wrong. I know a good IC player is going to completely jack your d.air timing with the different double shields ICs can do. Ganon? Why the **** not play Falco v Ganon. And low tiers, that's your choice; a good low tier player has to know how to fight spanimals by default.

am I the last tourney doc purist??

Depends on what you define as a purist.

me, when I go ^_^

@dogy: Ciel is a beast, in MB_AC ^_^ also, she was the only char I could play instinctively--something about her versatility with keys, and her 4C. I've seen crazy maid stuff, but can't play either of them >_>

Also, I that that ciel was S or A tier on some really influential Japanese tier list...or were you talking about the maids?

**** yes Ciel is S. ******** *** rushdown and pressure, close second to Sion (3rd on the tierlist though, behind Len). I was only talking down about Ciel's actual character, she ****in ***** and I know it.

Hisui by herself is top of A. She's got some nice pressure, but is beast at tech traps and whatnot. Kohaku is C by herself. she still has her awesome range (2nd to Nero, but she can actually deal with people being inside), but she has to work so hard to get something done since she doesnt have real mixups outside of spinning plant. Even if you do get a plant on them, her mixup game is character dependant (the only hard-to-stop overhead she has is instant j.C, which doesnt work on everybody), and 236[A] (which is deceptive since the regular hit is mid).

Together, they are the bottom of B, although Maids-Hisui lead is the dumbest idea you could have in that game. I'd rather play ****ing Neko Chaos (actually, i like Neko Chaos, he's got some sick *** spacing tricks). Anyways, maids-Kohaku point is my main, and I love that ****. Same Kohaku bull****, but you get an added overhead from Hisui. Awesome range, awesome zoning moves, ok pressure, awesome loop that ends with KD (and plant setup), and to top it all off, you still get to use Hisui's SATURDAY NIGHT FEVAH!!!!! :D

**edit**

I... gah... I don't understand fighting games at all. I still remember when you guys were talking about Soul Calibur and were all... is so and so's 358935bk+a still overpowered? Followed by a lot of acronyms and jargon.

Does Doc do well against Jigglypuff? Currently all I can do against Jigglypuff is go Fox and pray that I can get a 60%ish grab before I get space animal slayered/WoP'd.

First, the important stuff.

I personally think Doc is a hard matchup for jiggs. Nowhere near the worst (That goes to, surprise, Pikachu. Easy), but Doc is bad. And it's just like OTG says. All you do is you set up shop and you start throwing pills. Ground pills, FH Pills, whatever. You just keep pilling. Whether jiggs gets hit or not, you just pick her apart. Dont work to hard to try to combo, and the only thing that should really stop you from pilling is
1) if she got inside and is in shield, which is giving you a chance to grab or more
or
2) She's above you, and you're u.airing like mad to rack up damage and make her go away.

Yes, you get the everlasting **** ***** out of you by jiggs edgeguarding, but you can fight it since you float down instead of dropping like a rock (You actually have the option of reading and fighting jiggs ONCE in the air as opposed to spanimals and capfal who cant defend themselves).

You can only get comboed into rest at low %s by u.tilt and u.air, and that's if you dont DI. Well, you also have to look out for n.air rest, but everybody does. Beyond that, you only have to lookout for mango surprise (rest OoS) or tech chase rest. I dont think jiggs can punish your dash with OoS rest, but dont quote me on that.

And as for ledgecamping, Doc is one of the few characters that can legitly stop it without going anywhere near the edge. Instead of FH pills (like everybody loves to do), walk away from the ledge and do a regular pill so it bounces once on the stage, and then goes right on the ledge on the second bounce. And you just keep doing it. Jiggs can stay on the ledge if they're frame perfect, but once they miss, they'll eat 2 or 3 pills just trying to get back on the stage. Where you back up and continue spamming like the ******* they hate.

___

Now, for the numbers thing.

*points to your Keypad*

Universal fighting game termonology.

So, in street fighter, a hadoken would be 236P, shoryuken would be 623p, and hurricane kick (one day i'll remember the *** name) would be 214K; etc, etc.

I could get a little more technical about the termonology, but that's basically all you need to know, since that's the confusing version of it.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wow, hm... maybe I'll drop Mario and switch to Doc. The whole guaranteed finisher is really nice too.

Yeah, I know what the numbers mean, it's just confusing to read =P

Why is Pikachu a hard match up? Can't he... it... be chaingrabbed by Doc? Seems like a lot of people have a hard time against Pikachu... including Falcon, apparently.

Also, I finally know what the Ice Climbers double shield thing is for. I always just assumed it looked cool/set up grabs because Popo wouldn't be pushed as far away.

 

[Dogysamich]

Wow, hm... maybe I'll drop Mario and switch to Doc. The whole guaranteed finisher is really nice too.

Yeah, I know what the numbers mean, it's just confusing to read =P

Why is Pikachu a hard match up? Can't he... it... be chaingrabbed by Doc? Seems like a lot of people have a hard time against Pikachu... including Falcon, apparently.

Also, I finally know what the Ice Climbers double shield thing is for. I always just assumed it looked cool/set up grabs because Popo wouldn't be pushed as far away.

Doc vs Mario is preference. Nothing more. Dont care what ANYBODY tries to say. I'll argue just as hard for mario as i will for doc.

My main arguement for mario is that he has an easier time racking up damage by comboing the everlasting **** out of everything in the game. AND THEN HE CAN ACTUALLY REACH PEOPLE. And his cape sets him up for way more stuff (gives him more range on his edge guarding, gives him a better recovery, lets him put a kool kinda pressure on people, etc) Sure he has to throw -> n.air where doc can throw -> f.air, but mario is way more likely to land u.air -> f.smash combos than doc.

And no no, i wasnt talking doc vs pika, i was talking pika vs jiggs. Pika is by far jigg's worst matchup, but it's one of those matchups you wouldnt expect because you see so many good jigs and so few good pikas.

__

And yeah, IC double shield.

*nods* I started brushing up on my ICs cause i saw f.throw f.air on some brawl vid months ago and was like "Oh ****, they CAN do that".

.... i play random characters for dumb reasons.

__

and last, but not least

3000 NYUKKA!!!

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I suppose, but it sucks when they're at a high percentage as Mario and I can't finish them off because they're too high to combo. Plus I'm jealous of pills.

Okay, yeah, Pikachu vs Jigglypuff I can understand. I generally pick Pikachu to get around Jigglypuff. It's a boring, evasive match, but it works.

I've never gotten the fthrow fair to work =( In fact... the only throw combo I've gotten to work so far is dthrow to stuff.

 

[Dogysamich]

With ICs?

F.throw -> f.air takes a lil practice, timing is different from character to character, and i still dont know if you're supposed to SH or FH, i just kinda... jump. XD

As for other stuff,

b.throw -> f.smash = wait for nana to be ready, then press back on the c-stick (lol)

f.throw -> f.smash = same thing

i forget b.throw -> b.air and u.throw -> b.air ...cause i just use b.throw -> f.smash when I want somebody to go behind me.

ICs are too **** good.

 

[St. Viers]

Heh, I dunno, my sheik exists solely for the jiggz matchup. I know sheik isn't actually advantaged over Jiggz, but pretty much needle spam, b-air, and d-throw to u/f-air.

I haven't faced a good jiggz with doc recently, but I'll keep those tips in mind.

Also, pichu is much better than people think. Just throwing that out there.

 

[otg]

Pika vs. Jiggly is just gay. A friend of mine always counterpicks my boys Jiggly w/ Pika and it's the saddest matchup in the game. Pika needs an usmash at like 50-60 (might even be less than that) and it's done.

 

[Dogysamich]

Sounds about right. Pikachu is too **** raw with the vert kills.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, I don't really get Nana. I swear, her jump height randomly varies, even her double jump...

My current finisher with ICs is grab attack, Nana charges fsmash. Then just wait. Icky Brawl grab release kills.

Combined with the PC edgehog, and it's like I'm playing Brawl =P

 

[Dogysamich]

PC Edgehog?

waaat.

 

[Roman.]

walkoffs...

no idea why so many decided pc owns that move ^.^

 

[St. Viers]

cause he actually uses it =P Also, cause it's easy with falco, I hear >_>

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno, that's the only name I've ever heard for it. Suggest to me a better one.

I'd say it's easiest with Marth. Falco is... eh. With spacies, I prefer the run off turnaround shine jump canceled into the up B.

 

[St. Viers]

I dunno, that's the only name I've ever heard for it. Suggest to me a better one.

walkoff edgegrab

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Sounds like Brawl =X

 

[Roman.]

well melee had it first so....

 

[eighteenspikes]

ST. Viets?

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I dunno, I haven't really come up with any uses for the walk off edge hog. Most of the characters I play have a long enough wavedash so that I can just turn around and wavedash off if I'm anywhere near the edge, and if I'm not, then it doesn't really make sense to walk across the stage just to do the walk off edge hog.

 

[Roman.]

it's all preferance, everyone does something different

 

[elvenarrow3000]

I suppose so. I've been trying to find new (and faster) ways to grab the edge, but so far all I've come up with are like... shine turnaround Fire Fox with Fox and short hop bair with Marth.

 

[Roman.]

wavedashing with marth is faster and safer

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Than what?

 

[St. Viers]

than walkoff, I think.

@dogy: yeah, that's the intentional typo.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Makes sense, I guess. I dunno, I feel like I should get some utility out of the walk off for the effort I put into learning it.

 

[Roman.]

Than what?

I suppose so. I've been trying to find new (and faster) ways to grab the edge, but so far all I've come up with are like... shine turnaround Fire Fox with Fox and short hop bair with Marth.

than that.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

For falco and fox, fastest way to grab the edge when your running straight at it, is shine turnaround wavedash or edge canceled reverse laser. With doc i either full hop pill, or SH cape wavedash.

 

[otg]

So I finally figured out how to waveland out of a SH Uair. You can DJ after an Uair if you input the Uair fast enough, so immediately after the DJ airdodge into the ground immediately. I don't know if it's practical or useful at all, but it's there.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

interesting, how clean does the wavedash look, is it more like a triangle jump?

 

[otg]

Depending on how fast you are with it, it can be both, and both have uses. Triangle jumping gives you invincibility frames and even a slight waveland is nice.. but.

In the end isn't just a dashed Uair more efficient If you plan on chaining Uairs together? I'm not to sure how practical this for that, but it's actually pretty nifty to space yourself out a little. One other problem is if you get hit at all you might be w/o your second jump and that's never good for Doc.... although this is just another option to throw into your bag of tricks so who knows, it could prove useful.