Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[ranmaru]

He certainly does not. Lookie here:

His head looks to big for his body. Body is too skinny. His facial expression doesn't seem like a fighting expression. In the first pic he looks like he was dancing. Ugh.

 

[otg]

I got way more vids coming, (including vids of my mario). Get ready. Should I just make a new thread? I don't want them to get lost amongst the spam, and I def want to see comments/critique.

I don't need to hear "oh you spot dodge too much." That was the first thing I noticed immediately upon watching vids, I want to hear some actual useful ****.

 

[TemPesT-]

someone should make a flow chart representation of OTG's doc wherever everything inevitably leads back to spot dodge.

 

[otg]

It would be something like this:

Are they Sheik/Marth?
Yes -> Switch to secondary
No -> **** them -> spotdodge.

That's about it.

Oh and don't forget the ever classic.

Did you KO them?

No -> spotdodge
Yes -> spotdodge anyway


Seriously tho, my movement/wavelands are amazing... smoooth.... LIKE BUTTAH.

 

[unknown522]

yeah, ****ing sheik/marth. They're the big half of why I main fox now.

 

[Dogysamich]

So I've officially come to the conclusion that Mario does better than Doc in the following matchups, AND ONLY the following matchups:

Sheik, Falcon

Ganon is a maybe, tho I think that Mario and Doc's specific advantages over the other are both effective on ganon equally, so it probably comes down to preference.

I origionally put Marth, but I think that matchup comes down to preference as well.

I'm glad you came to the conclusion of something We (probably maybe me and every other doc who has or does play mario) said a while ago.

Mario/Sheik is like, 45/55 Sheik
Mario/Capfal is 50/50. That matchup is hilarious cause it's just both of them comboing the crap out of each other.

I honestly think Doc does as well against Ganon as Mario because where Mario has a long range move to deal with ganon's range, and more combos; Doc can control his airspace.

Where mario (tends to) start lacking is in matchups where he cant control air space, or in situations where he pretty much cant gimp. Jiggs is the obvious answer in that situation. Peach comes at a distant second.

Beyond that, it really comes down to preference between the two.

I honestly think Mario has better matchups overall. To the point of where I question why I don't play mario at all anymore (although I realistically don't believe a mario main has a big reason to play doc.)

I could keep going on this, but.

I need to partake in a Doc conference. Either I can't combo well with him, or he can't combo. This is like... life or death. I NEED TO COMBO PEOPLE, OR ELSE I'M SWITCHING TO FALCO AND JIGGZ!

I mean, he's not capfal, but doc can do some stuff. It's kinda, unorthadoxed, and it's not long-winded combos unless you find ******* with horrible di.

what can you do when someone DIs away from uair?

what other combo moves does doc have?

1) Hope they change their mind and DI back into you.
2) U.smash, D.air (D.air combos STRAIGHT into u.air, n.air, or b.air if you're in the right place, can lead to other stuff if you can predict DI out of it), U.tilt,

im not hatin......lol it will just become punishing after time.....why would u spotdodge after u waveland from edge if u get invincability frames.....to avoid a grab???

Something where they move out of range and back in, be it jumping, DDing, etc. Say somebody is like, DDing into grab. Sure you can f.tilt if you KNOW they're coming in, but you could take the super defensive route and spotdodge.

It kinda comes down to a preference thing (preference as to how you would defend against it)

Waveland -> spotdodge isnt like, the FIRST thing you outta be thinking, but you really shouldn't rule it out.

they really want him dont they...

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=254522

You know why i'd play that Doc? Because Mario's cape in brawl is dumb good. I'VE SEEN YOUR CAPE **** **** BOSS. XD

 

[otg]

Dogy, I think you might be right when you claim Mario's matchups might be better than Doc's overall. Doc in theory has more potential I feel, and he's also more useful in the current metagame imo. Learning them both to cover matchups you don't feel comfy about seems like an interesting idea, tho I still see a Marth problem.

Dogy care to elaborate why Mario v. Sheik is good? I'm officially integrating Mario discussion into this thread because honestly, no one posts in the Mario boards and people here use him.

 

[St. Viers]

his f-smash is better than docs. That's pretty much why. Everything else about the matchup plays out the same (as you can't really control her w/ pills, and mario can combo her/not get chaingrabbed as well). But when it comes to ground control/range, and followups after a throw, he has a better tool.

 

[Dogysamich]

Dogy, I think you might be right when you claim Mario's matchups might be better than Doc's overall. Doc in theory has more potential I feel, and he's also more useful in the current metagame imo. Learning them both to cover matchups you don't feel comfy about seems like an interesting idea, tho I still see a Marth problem.

I've always had, and probably always will, have this crazy idea that the best way to go about Doc/Mario is to actually play both. They both cover each other's bad matchups, although Mario has less (or less drastic) bad matchups overall.

With the way things are, with the way people swear the game works, mario is realistically better because he has better combo potential outside of grabs than Doc. And apparently you cant grab a good ______. If that's the case, then what's better, an u.tilt that's going to guaranteed'ly net you damage and/or a grab, or one that's going to push people away 90% of the time and reset the situation?

Not to mention Mario has less lag on his aerials, so he can, in general, keep more pressure on an opponent than Doc can.

Dogy care to elaborate why Mario v. Sheik is good? I'm officially integrating Mario discussion into this thread because honestly, no one posts in the Mario boards and people here use him.

his f-smash is better than docs. That's pretty much why. Everything else about the matchup plays out the same (as you can't really control her w/ pills, and mario can combo her/not get chaingrabbed as well). But when it comes to ground control/range, and followups after a throw, he has a better tool.

Pretty much. Where Doc has a kill setup vs sheik (which "according to the current meta should never happen because you can never grab a good sheik -rolls eyes-"), Mario actually has something to combat sheik's range with.

Not to mention once again, mario has less lag on his aerials. So in the event he lands something on sheik's shield, he actually has a better chance to flat out move (or put pressure), as opposed to doc.

As for the not-get-chaingrabbed part, first and foremost sheik cant even chaingrab doc. Maybe like, ONE regrab at low%, that's it. But in the realm of not-getting-grabbed, it comes down to defensive style. Mario has the better options of a longer ranged f.smash, to keep sheik out, lower lag aerials, and a real jab mixup. The key thing is being able to actually REACH SHEIK and do something.

 

[otg]

How is Mario's jab mixup better than docs? I've never heard that before.

Also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9AT-XIfouto&feature=sub

Go to 3:40 for Doc. There is one more match I think we recorded that is RAAAPE, so hopefully that comes up soon too.

First match here too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngoTFPIe6z4&feature=sub

 

[Dogysamich]

How is Mario's jab mixup better than docs? I've never heard that before.

because it's fast enough to where you can legitly mixup being doing an un-interruptable string, staggering attack, or jab-grabbing.

Doc's jab string is a gimmick. If you know doc is going to jab, all you have to do is atleast CC the first hit, and you can grab (or hit if you have a < i7 attack). If you do it on reaction, doc has to predict you trying and avoid your response. If you straight predict the jab, Doc cant do anything once he jabbed you.

That's one of the dumb things I like to do to people in doc dittos

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Doc's jab

Punch 1

Total: 15
Hit: 2-3

Shield stun: 6
Shield hit lag: 3
Advantage: -10
Punch 2 advantage: -9

Window of the second punch: 3-25
Second punch starts: 14 (or later)
-------------------------------------
Punch 2

Total: 18
Hit: 3-4

Shield stun: 6
Shield hit lag: 3
Advantage: -12
Kick advantage: -10

Window of the kick: 2-25
Kick starts: 17 (or later)
-------------------------------------
Kick

Total: 22
Hit: 5-9

Shield stun: 8
Shield hit lag: 4
Advantage: -12

Mario's jab

Punch 1

Total: 15
Hit: 2-3

Shield stun: 6
Shield hit lag: 3
Advantage: -10
Punch 2 advantage: 0

Window of the second punch: 3-25
Second punch starts: 6 (or later)
-------------------------------------
Punch 2

Total: 18
Hit: 3-4

Shield stun: 4
Shield hit lag: 2
Advantage: -13
Kick advantage: -1

Window of the kick: 3-25
Kick starts: 7
-------------------------------------
Kick

Total: 22
Hit: 5-9

Shield stun: 7
Shield hit lag: 3
Advantage: -12

 

[otg]

Wow I had no idea...... even more reason to pick up mario.

 

[Dogysamich]

*High fives Elven* Thanks.

But yeah, like he posted, and like i said.

Mario's jab game = complete viable
Doc's jab game = pretty gimmicky.

There's a reason why I keep saying Doc's jab is bad and everybody looks at me crazy.

Jab hits on frame 2 (the hell if you could do a meaty jab in this game XD), and then you have to wait till frame 14 before the next hitbox CAN BE PRESENT.

that's 12 frames. Take out shield stun, which is like, two or three frames. You're still lookin at 9. And that's if they just blocked it.

 

[Vulcan55]

Yeah, Mario's pretty cool.

 

[Dogysamich]

Until Doc can do some dumb **** like this, I'm never going to write mario off as a bad character.

And yes, to save some people the time, that's an old clip of the cat mario combo.

____

Edit: Nobody wants to post in here tonight lol

So, after a bunch of slacking and missing a crapton of vids (that arent on here), I finally capped off my first Playlist on Youtube.
Here's a link to it
NOTE THAT THIS PLAYLIST IS ACTUALLY DOC/MARIO (kind of ironic, I know), SO THERE IS A BIT OF MARIO ON HERE.

This list includes is pretty much everybody you know, some recent some old as hell, some import docs, and a few videos of me that I didn't upload. (I'm going to get around to making a list of all of Dogy vids not uploaded by Dogy. Probably will do that tomorrow now that I think 'bout it)

So, if you like it, enjoy. If not, well piss off.

Gunna sit down sometime, catch a bunch of old videos I know of that I just didn't put on the list at the time while I was lazy, and start crackin on list 2.

 

[otg]

Until Doc can do some dumb **** like this, I'm never going to write mario off as a bad character.

And yes, to save some people the time, that's an old clip of the cat mario combo.

So priceless. Cat mario combo gets me every time lol. I might just update the video thread with your Playlist lol. I'm way too lazy to update, their have been SOOOOOOO many vids.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Until Doc can do some dumb **** like this, I'm never going to write mario off as a bad character.

Or like that.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Speaking of which, Gimpyfish needs to get the original download of that back =(

Also, Dogy should get his combo video back =D

 

[Dogysamich]

Or like that.

Ya know, except for the f.air to start it, Doc can actually do that.

It's nowhere near as easy as it is for mario, but it's completely do-able.

Also, Dogy should get his combo video back =D

F***ING NO. NO I'DONT. OH GOD

Uuuuugh. I was skimming through my general SSBM playlist and saw that that combo video was gone and I was like "Ya know, I'm not really upset at that."

I just grew to not like that thing. I think it was because I didn't make it myself. It's not that I'm not capable of making one, I made 14 TFC avis (which i STILL need to frickin try and put on youtube. People loved some of my later ones).

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

so ive been lurking here for a while



i'm watching you

 

[Dogysamich]

-rolls eyes-

Until you pull some crazy bull**** like playing a g&w in a set vs me in tourney and intentionally jacking 1st port as to **** the match up, I could care less.

That, or something of that caliber.

*punches fist into hand*

 

[InterimOfZeal]

Sooooooooo guize, I think Imma either drop Doc, or just make him my "wtf" character. Falco has the combos/pressure I want, and Jiggz has the bair/fair I want, AND multiple jumps.

But Doc is still soooo cool. =(

 

[boss8]

sir you've said enough...GTFO....

xD imma never leave doc or mario

 

[Doromac]

my bad wrong thread.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I might use Mario more. Doc is madd fun, but I have more fun when I'm doing super duper extreme pressure. BUuuuuuuuuuuuuut

I dunno. Maybe I just need to see how a good Doc handles people that hard DI away. I'll prolly play him some at Pound/if I'm baked.

 

[Shroomed]

I beat scar in a $30 MM today =D

doc is a great character

except when he fights sheik, then he sucks

all of you, USE UPSMASH OUTTA SHEILD, it is very amazing

 

[boss8]

I beat scar in a $30 MM today =D

doc is a great character

except when he fights sheik, then he sucks

all of you, USE UPSMASH OUTTA SHEILD, it is very amazing

i already use it....time to do work...

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Can you only SDI fox's dair in a certain version of the game? Like i know in some versions, you can SDI out of stuff like ice climbers utilt and in others you can't, is this the same for fox's dair?

everyone should learn how to SDI it to grab.

 

[Vulcan55]

The only version I've ever owned is 1.0.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

in 1.0 you couldnt SDI something that didn't do any damage

or was it you couldn't SDI something that didn't have hitstun?

XD idk... all i know is it effected zelda's usmash and made it much easier to escape than before.

 

[St. Viers]

^^prolly damage under 1 percent--I remember some other attacks like that.

 

[SoldierRift]

Can someone explain to me the diffrence between Dr. Mario and Mario.

 

[Ocean]

Can someone explain to me the diffrence between Dr. Mario and Mario.

ones a doctor.

 

[SoldierRift]

Thank you, you helped me so much.

I was about to do a bunch of research. Which includes the physics of mario and the dr.

I was also going to count all of thier attack frames.

 

[St. Viers]

Alright, even though there may be a sticky in the board about this.

Doc has slightly more lag on aerials, slightly more powerful attacks, and shorter ground range. His Tornado takes mashing a master than mario's, but less than luigi's. His cape has a slightly bigger vertical hitbox, making it easier to edgeguard. His cape doesn't give him a vertical boost, but rather acts like mario's 2nd or 3rd time using it. Mario's jab has less lag between the hits.

Doc can cancel his up B, mario can walljump after his upB. Mario can walljump, Doc can't. Doc's b-air has a better trajectory for knowcback, and their f-airs are very different.

 

[Dogysamich]

Can someone explain to me the diffrence between Dr. Mario and Mario.

One
two

yeah

 

[St. Viers]

^^its cool. i summarized them for him

 

[SoldierRift]

Thanks yaaaaa

 

[Dogysamich]

^^its cool. i summarized them for him

*looks up*

I dont see anything jab differences, upsmash properties, uptilt properties, projectile zones, and for the record, their tornadoes are the in terms of recovery, but different when it comes to the knockback hit.

Deal with it.