Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[yuki]

Just because Sheik is harder to play in PAL doesn't make PAL Sheiks the best in the world.

Alright I'm sorry if you thought that was a crude assumption.
But seriously, I need help approaching sheiks.

 

[Dogysamich]

So, does anyone have any tips for Ganon? I got wrecked pretty hard by Linguini at winterfest

(I'll get a lil more indepth when I get back)

You'll laugh at this AL, but you'll get this reference pretty **** well.

Think of Doc/Ganon like anything vs Sagat, except you're the one doing **** at long range.

You're whole goal vs ganon is to get in on him and stay on him. When you're there, there's not a whole lot he can do. However, you're abusing the **** out of him, cutting off options left and right. When you get there, his whole goal is to either punt you back out or gtfo. It isn't easy.

The thing to know, though, is that getting in isn't the easiest thing in the world. Contrary to popular belief, ganon is actually fairly quick. Not in his movement, but in his attacks. So granted he can't flat out RUN from you, he can put stuff out quickly.

Also, his jumps are TOO GOOD FOR HIM. Like, by themselves they're not great, but when combined with the range and speed of his attacks, he starts covering areas in ways that some characters straight up can't. You have to understand that and be ready for it. (I.e., if ganon ledgejumps, if you're not already up there to punish him, you CANT punish him. He'll double jump d.air, and win. Every time.)

__

I'll go more into it later, g2run for now.

 

[VGmasta]

*Points up at the last post*
Dogy knows what's up.

So, does anyone have any tips for Ganon? I got wrecked pretty hard by Linguini at winterfest

I wish I was there to at least see that match. Reminds me of the times I got beat down by Renth and RockCrock. I only find myself winning or at least keeping up with them if I play completely unpredictable. Predictable play means you will probably lose since good Ganons can kill you in just 5 or 6 attacks. You have to land at least 10 short ranged attacks before he lands just 5 or 6. I would think Ganon would be too slow for Doc, but Ganon's attack speed is actually decent. Ganon's retreating f-air alone outranges EVERYTHING that Doc has and it kills pills. Ganon's attacks drain Doc's shield in no time (you're screwed after blocking just three).

I would suggest moving in and out of Ganon's space unpredictably until you can get combos on him. Make sure your pill game is accurate and that you keep plenty of distance away from Ganon while pill spamming. Otherwise, Doc gets f-aired or d-throw comboed since the pill throwing animation lasts too **** long and Ganon can turn into his human coconut (whenever he air-jumps) to maneuver around the pills. So if you're gonna pill spam, work it from far away unless you can gaurantee the pills are going to hit your target.

Pill spamming alone is definitely not recommended unless the Ganon doesn't know how to work his way around that. But as for fighting great ones like Linguini/RockCrock, it's probably better to work your way inside Ganon. Find a way to keep Ganon grounded and out of the air so much. If you do approach, keep Ganon under as much pressure as you can without letting him escape. At early percents, look out for the crouch-cancel to d-tilt combos they have. Punish crouch-cancelers and shielders with grab to d-throw combos to rack up damage quick and fast.

And just remember that your attacks/combos must be accurate since most of Doc's attacks just kind of poke Ganon rather than place him in decent hitstun. This means Ganon can do his human coconut trick at anytime and just air-jump out of anything and retaliate with d-air/f-air/whatever if you give him too much space between your attacks.

As for recovering after being knocked off stage, against a good Ganon you really don't. Like there's literally no way around a Ganon that already knows how to cover all of Doc's recovery options. D-airing from above just gets up-aired. Throwing pills at him while Ganon's by the edge seems worthless because they can attack through the pills and hit you. Believe it or not, Ganon's big, slow *** can just flat out run under the pills and up-air Doc as if he's Captain Falcon.

The real way to recover is to airdodge past his attacks as you get to the stage where he is edgeguarding; probably your best bet to coming back. You could up-B right when you think he will knock you out of jump since that move has good priority, but you risk crashing it with Ganon's priority. Turning yourself around with reverse pill or reverse cape so that maybe you could throw a b-air is another decent maneuver back on the stage. You kinda have to just pick a way and pray.

Overall, you should move around Ganon until you can get inside his attack range. Keep him under as much attack pressure as you can without giving him room to think about attacking/escaping. If you think Ganon is going to do retreating attacks to keep you from coming inside, just answer with pills and spaced capes. Just keep track of whether or not he's attacking defensively or aggressively since he could switch up at anytime.

 

[JPOBS]

Or roll towards/away from them. Careful vs mango, tho. That guy'll pew pew behind him and then run behind you and then you're like omg what do i do and then you sidestep and he rests you and ur liek wtf falco can rest?

and then you buy him a drink and he loses.

best post ever

 

[Scidadle]

I think I'm only gonna play fox/falco in friendlies because I need to learn the game better before I go to a character whos not that good at all.

My game will improve once i learn everything that I can't with doc.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Yep, cuz that's how mango got good

 

[otg]

I did that too, and guess what happened? My spacies became better than my Doc. Surprising? No, Doc sucks. I still use Doc cause he's my fav, so I hope you do the same Scidadle, but don't be suprised if your Doc falls behind drastically.

 

[yuki]

I played a Ganon main at Alliance.
I found it almost impossible to get around him once I was on the ledge. His attacks outspace anything you can do once you´re on the edge.
I tried throwing edge/cancelled pills but he just jabs through them . ledgehops and **** get punished by his fair and wavelands and rolls get you Ftilted.
What is the best thing to do when you get in that situation except praying ganon messes up?

 

[Shroomed]

i almost NEVER play doc in friendlies
i play other chars and learn a crapton about them/improve my techskill
that's how i got good

linguini's pretty good, i was playing him at genesis and i won every match methinks =D
i wonder how much better he's gotten
i have like no ganon practice

waveland utilt yuki

unless he's super spacing in which u need to shield the fair or w/e and wavedash closer to him and spam uairs

if you spam uairs fast enough, he'll b trapped!

 

[Scidadle]

I did that too, and guess what happened? My spacies became better than my Doc. Surprising? No, Doc sucks. I still use Doc cause he's my fav, so I hope you do the same Scidadle, but don't be suprised if your Doc falls behind drastically.

Oh I won't be.

I'm expecting it.

Doc will forever be my main. I'm not a *****

 

[eighteenspikes]

upb and utilt completely ruin ganon

 

[TemPesT-]

taunt cancel, upb cancel, and yodel guards also completely ruin ganon. but actually i just try to bait his laggy aerials and punish. shoot a lot of pills when you have space. idk i play it pretty campy and gay, but i do well vs any ganons i ever fight with doc. full hop dair to w/e works pretty well iirc. idk i suck

 

[Scidadle]

full hop dair means your gonna eat an up air.

DO NOT ATTEMPT

srsly

 

[VGmasta]

taunt cancel, upb cancel, and yodel guards also completely ruin ganon. but actually i just try to bait his laggy aerials and punish. shoot a lot of pills when you have space. idk i play it pretty campy and gay

As much as I hate to play that way, this is the best way to play vs. Ganons: CAMPY and GAY! Wait for them to throw out ******** attacks and then punish them when you think you see an opening an their attack bubble (Ganon's way of protecting the space around himself by spamming attacks to keep his opponents from approaching). With that said, the more attacks that Ganon decides to throw out, the longer you have to wait to get inside his range, and the gayer the match will look. But that's how it is as long as Ganon has his attack bubble up. If you fail to play gay, you kinda just run into attacks.

full hop dair means your gonna eat an up air.

DO NOT ATTEMPT

srsly

Ganon's up-air does counter Doc's aerial approaches very well. But the full hop d-air should work as long as Ganon doesn't expect Doc to approach high in the air.

 

[Scidadle]

Honestly you see a doc full hop into the air gives you plenty of time to react with a simple up air.

And ganon should be able to pull it off

 

[TemPesT-]

i dont mean run around Full hop dairing tho <_< i mean like from a grab or something. like use it when you can, not just as a tactic to stop ganon from doing something. doc never strats that work on people he just has things that can work sometimes, and dair 2 w/e CAN work on ganon if you can catch him with it. thats all i was trying to say. but once again, i'm a doc noob. so disregard all my advice.

 

[Shroomed]

if you tell us disregard your advice, why would you post it in the first place?

but im a doc noob too, i kinda jus attack him lol

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Seems like it'd be a good idea to throw pills, then react to how he reacts to the pills. Ganon's attacks do have a bit of cooldown, save for like... his jab, which isn't great for killing pills.

Just my two cents.

 

[Shroomed]

hey guys i just had an epiphany about my playstyle

some voice in my head jus told me

APPROACH WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN NEUTRAL AIR!!!!!

hopefully this will improve my performance and skill level

 

[Angrylobster]

hey guys i just had an epiphany about my playstyle

some voice in my head jus told me

APPROACH WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN NEUTRAL AIR!!!!!

hopefully this will improve my performance and skill level

This always used to be my worst habit. I'd randomly approach with nair and HOPE it would hit. Took me a while to learn that that its not always a useful approach because it got so easy to predict and counter. Gotta mix it up and set up your offense imo

 

[otg]

hey guys i just had an epiphany about my playstyle

some voice in my head jus told me

APPROACH WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN NEUTRAL AIR!!!!!

hopefully this will improve my performance and skill level

I think you should stop approaching all together. I know that that is impossible, but your mentality seems to be "approach approach approach approach". That's going to catch up with you at some point. My .02.

Anyway, I no longer fear luigi/peach (my two most hated matchups outside of Sheik/Marht), so yay.

Merry christmas *****s http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5MoZ5PzDQo&feature=related

 

[TresChikon]

Approaching is scientifically proven to fail.

 

[yuki]

Merry Christmas Doc Boards!

 

[VGmasta]

Honestly you see a doc full hop into the air gives you plenty of time to react with a simple up air.

And ganon should be able to pull it off

Trust me, Doc's d-air is a beautiful thing if you catch Ganon in the air doing something dumb. Otherwise, yes, you will get Up-air comboed if Ganon has not already committed himself to doing a move yet.

i dont mean run around Full hop dairing tho <_< i mean like from a grab or something. like use it when you can, not just as a tactic to stop ganon from doing something. doc never strats that work on people he just has things that can work sometimes, and dair 2 w/e CAN work on ganon if you can catch him with it. thats all i was trying to say. but once again, i'm a doc noob. so disregard all my advice.

D-air to whatever is beautiful.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVq3jbvOBU#t=57s
Yeah, I know it's a Mario and not a Doc. But the point is that a random d-air is not a complete fail. Green Mario loves his d-airs and there were a number of times he did full hop d-airs without being punished for it.

hey guys i just had an epiphany about my playstyle

some voice in my head jus told me

APPROACH WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN NEUTRAL AIR!!!!!

hopefully this will improve my performance and skill level

This always used to be my worst habit. I'd randomly approach with nair and HOPE it would hit. Took me a while to learn that that its not always a useful approach because it got so easy to predict and counter. Gotta mix it up and set up your offense imo

I had the same epiphany, about six months ago that I spam f-airs too often. Then, I discovered the n-air and how much quicker it comes out that the f-air and found it to be effective. Now people have caught on and began shieldgrabbing/spacing away and punishing those approaches. I play a lot smarter than that now though.

 

[Dogysamich]

I played a Ganon main at Alliance.
I found it almost impossible to get around him once I was on the ledge. His attacks outspace anything you can do once you´re on the edge.
I tried throwing edge/cancelled pills but he just jabs through them . ledgehops and **** get punished by his fair and wavelands and rolls get you Ftilted.
What is the best thing to do when you get in that situation except praying ganon messes up?

Yeah, like some people said, waveland u.tilt works. Waveland u.smash is also good in that it has head invin. Sometimes, you just have to come up and move the **** out of the way.

If he's giving you room, you might want to just ledgehop right onto the edge and work from there.

linguini's pretty good, i was playing him at genesis and i won every match methinks =D
i wonder how much better he's gotten
i have like no ganon practice

waveland utilt yuki

unless he's super spacing in which u need to shield the fair or w/e and wavedash closer to him and spam uairs

if you spam uairs fast enough, he'll b trapped!

Lol. I want you to play chaddd one day and see how many f.airs you eat for doing some nonsense like that. Chaddd or Iori. They're real spacing heavy with their ganons.

I'd say Rockcrock, but I honestly forget how he plays. I tend to think of him as the median of ganon.

full hop dair means your gonna eat an up air.

DO NOT ATTEMPT

srsly

... Lol. If you want to telegraph it, then yeah you deserve to die for it.

Seems like it'd be a good idea to throw pills, then react to how he reacts to the pills. Ganon's attacks do have a bit of cooldown, save for like... his jab, which isn't great for killing pills.

Just my two cents.

Yeah, you kinda do that to everybody.

But pills vs Ganon is one of his banes. He's a very upright character. (I'm starting to like that term. XD. It means his animations cause him to be a tall target.)

You're really looking for two things against him (and most characters)

1) How does he deal with the pill itself. Does he shield it, does he run from it, jump over it, hit it, etc.

2) After he does 1) What does he do? -This one has to be in relation to what YOU'RE doing. I.e., you cant bank on ganon doing a jab if you don't atleast ACT like you're going to run in. Likewise, if you never fake a jump, he might NEVER u.air.

__

I swear I have a ridiculously in-depth theory of how DJN uses pills. If I'm right, it's something you'd use vs Ganon, although I've only worked the defensive end of it (Seeing is that's ALL DJN does anyway. XD)

The concept works like this:

Instead of spacing around the actual line that the pill bounces (which is something I do, so I end up mixing FH/SH/Ground pills trying to stop lines), DJN probably spaces in relation to the "point of bounce" (bounce point, whatever dumb term you want to use here).

Instead of trying to control where the target goes in vertical sense (Trying to block the target from jumping when you dont want them to, or staying on the ground), DJN tends to control the horizontal of the target.

I laugh, because it reminds me of years ago when $mac talked about making a wall with pills. It's the same concept, it's just DJN is ridiculously heavy into it as compared to $mac.

-shrug-Just some food for thought for you guys.

hey guys i just had an epiphany about my playstyle

some voice in my head jus told me

APPROACH WITH SOMETHING OTHER THAN NEUTRAL AIR!!!!!

hopefully this will improve my performance and skill level

... I'da swore I told you this somewhere. YOU HAVE GROUND APPROACHES N****.

Cause I swear to god if your dumb *** starts trying to f.air approach all the time I'm going to personally fly to Cali and slap you in the face.

 

[VGmasta]

Lol. I want you to play chaddd one day and see how many f.airs you eat for doing some nonsense like that. Chaddd or Iori. They're real spacing heavy with their ganons.

I'd say Rockcrock, but I honestly forget how he plays. I tend to think of him as the median of ganon.

Chaddd spams a crapton of f-airs, lol.
RockCrock does not allow Doc to recover AT ALL. Ganon has ******** edgeguarding vs. Doc. Seriously, you'd be lucky to recover on like 20% of all of your attempts at recovering. As a matter of fact I remember asking him "How am I supposed to recover against that?!". He just looked at me and laughed and goes "I had Smashmac practice back in the day, so yea...lol"

 

[Scidadle]

Thats what I meant by dairing guys.

Out of a grab yeah. Or when ganon's doing something dumb than yeah

 

[yuki]

I felt so bad for green mario first match of the set.
No KO moves, playing so well against RockCrock and just not being able to KO the *******.
Shoulda played Doc.

 

[otg]

I just felt like RockCrock was figuring out Green Mario and started gaying him that first match. Lost the momentum and couldn't do anything about it.

 

[Dogysamich]

1*Chaddd spams a crapton of f-airs, lol.
2*RockCrock does not allow Doc to recover AT ALL. Ganon has ******** edgeguarding vs. Doc. Seriously, you'd be lucky to recover on like 20% of all of your attempts at recovering. As a matter of fact I remember asking him 3*"How am I supposed to recover against that?!". He just looked at me and laughed and goes "I had Smashmac practice back in the day, so yea...lol"

1* I beg to differ. It might look like spam, but he's really just rapidly spacing. Same idea as the current spanimal meta to approach and pressure with shine. It LOOKS like they're just running in, shine -> waveshine -> waveshine, but it actually is "I shined, I think he's gunna roll here (waveshine), he's still in shield I'm going back (waveshine), he's gunna roll now (waveshine), f*** it (b.air)."

2* I beg to differ. I mean, first off, Doc's recovery blows. I keep saying that and laughing when people try to tell me otherwise, it doesn't take much to stop it, but it doesn't get stopped cold. You've gotta learn what kinda gimmicky bs you can do to get back on the stage. Spacing from edgeguards, defending your recovery (to the point of turning backwards to b.air), you gotta learn all the bs you can so that you can cheat people out of recoveries you, as Doc, really don't deserve.

3* I beg to differ. *Points up*

 

[VGmasta]

I felt so bad for green mario first match of the set.
No KO moves, playing so well against RockCrock and just not being able to KO the *******.
Shoulda played Doc.

Yea, there were plenty of situations that match where I was like "If only you were Doc right there...". But at least Mario has the better recovery.

I just felt like RockCrock was figuring out Green Mario and started gaying him that first match. Lost the momentum and couldn't do anything about it.

That, plus he kinda stopped going for grabs when it was down to last stock. I know the openings for grabs were hard to get in on Rock. But at that point, Rock was playing to carefully to be hit by straight up attacks. I think he could've possibly won that first match if he would've done a b-throw right here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEVq3jbvOBU#t=275s
Maybe he meant to b-throw and ended up doing a d-throw instead. OR he could've been going for d-throw to n-air, but saw that RockCrock Di'ed too far back to be hit by a n-air.

Anyways, Merry Christmas Doc boards!

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Merry Christmas ya'll.

...

I can't think of anything witty to say in relation to the character.

Smooth Criminal

 

[eighteenspikes]

Merry Christmas docs!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBts5ktOYbc

 

[yuki]

Aww man.
I played a lot of games versus a Peach main today.
This match-up just frustrates me to no end.
What the hell do you do against Nair / Dsmash and such gayness?

 

[Dogysamich]

D.air/jump it or halfshield -> f.air

 

[eighteenspikes]

run away, throw pills, uair a lottt

 

[Vulcan55]

Dogy, your green WOT's aren't quite as menacing in
W I D E S C R E E N

 

[otg]

Pill the **** out of Peach. If you think she is going to try and Dsmash you, Dsmash first. Bair and dair are pretty good. Fair will make you happy.

 

[CanISmash]

how the hell does doc have a crappy recovery... with a god priority up b that can be used at any moment and will wallspike you at zero. not to mention cape and stuff...

 

[otg]

CanIsma-

NO! Sup?

His recovery sucks cause of how easy it is to gimp him and that it doesn't cover that much space.