DK Advancement of Metagame thread |Updated Random ideas 10/28/10!!!

[daisho]

If you want i could make a video of all the AT's we got and put them up here. I already have a vid for the up-b break, and b-reverse headbutt for DI purposes. I could do up b tricks on different stages, and down b and dsmash on platforms to hit tall opponents. Jab locks, jab lock/punch/whatever after knocking someone off of platform.

Yeah?

This would be ridiculously awesome... if you wouldn't mind I (or you) could even record commentary over the videos to show exactly what is going on.

 

[Chaosgriffin]

This would be ridiculously awesome... if you wouldn't mind I (or you) could even record commentary over the videos to show exactly what is going on.

Sounds good, the mic on my camera broke a while back. Not sure if you have applications to add sound to an already existing video file, if you do than i can record the vids, and commentate. (just thought i would let you know about the sound thing)

Or whatever works better for you.

 

[daisho]

Yeah you can just send me the video file and that'd be easy.

I have a capture card at my home and I generally record call of duty gameplays, put my commentary on and then upload it to youtube but the same principle should work for Smash. In fact I'd really like to start commentating smash matches but unfortunately I don't have my wii/capture card at school...

 

[daisho]

Sorry for the double post, but do you guys think it's better if I just rewrite the paragraphs for each AT?
Here is an example.



Grounded Footstool Head-butt

Donkey Kong can get a guaranteed head-butt from a footstool. This is a more difficult technique but it is pretty reliable once mastered. The idea behind this is to jump on the grounded opponents head and head-butt him into the ground. The issue is that a normal head-butt won’t hit the opponent. Luckily this issue can be fixed. Donkey Kong can do a b-reversal headbutt which will result in his hitbox hitting the opponent. The b-reversal headbutt is done by inputting right, B, left (or left, B, right). The timing is strict but if you get it right then you should see DK staying in one place but hitting behind him rather than in front of him.

 

[¿Qué?]

Sorry for the double post, but do you guys think it's better if I just rewrite the paragraphs for each AT?
Here is an example.



Grounded Footstool Head-butt

Donkey Kong can get a guaranteed head-butt from a footstool. This is a more difficult technique but it is pretty reliable once mastered. The idea behind this is to jump on the grounded opponents head and head-butt him into the ground. The issue is that a normal head-butt won’t hit the opponent. Luckily this issue can be fixed. Donkey Kong can do a b-reversal headbutt which will result in his hitbox hitting the opponent. The b-reversal headbutt is done by inputting right, B, left (or left, B, right). The timing is strict but if you get it right then you should see DK staying in one place but hitting behind him rather than in front of him.

I was trying to master that a while back, lol. It's extremely amazing to use. It's almost as much of a ***** as free pulling and bone walking. lol

 

[Chaosgriffin]

Ok, i can record the vids and then send them to you, probably gonna put em on rapidshare and post the links.

I think a re-vamp/re-wording of the At's would be good.

 

[daisho]

Okay guys I redid all of the ATs and put them in collapse-able tabs. If there's something you think I can do to make it look nicer PLEASE let me know. I also left the old ATs there in a collapsed tab.

Do you think I should change from having each AT in it's own collapse-able tab or just put them all in one.

Trying to make this thread as easy to read and professional as possible so PLEASE give me your feedback.


Thanks,
Daisho

 

[Scabe]

I don't think it's necessary to have collapse boxes for the AT stuff, because most of it is really short.

 

[daisho]

I hear... though I feel it's going to be extremely concise and easy to maneuver once I finish if I have all the major topics in collapse-able tabs.

 

[DtJ S2n]

I like the collapse boxes. Organized and everything. I think that the titles of the lists should be outside of the collapses though. I'll be the first to contribute new stuff for you. Not sure where this would go.

When your opponent has just respawned, you can punch them towards the end of their invincibility. They'll extend the hitbox of your punch, including the super-armor like a Brinstar glob would, and will last until after their invincibility. Easy way to start their stock off with 29%, that's like 1/3rd of a stock vs. DK.

 

[daisho]

hey DKs just updated again. Please post random ideas like we used to, there has to be new things in the past year... Sold2, just saw that post. I'll edit it in eventually don't worry, but things like that are perfect!

 

[Scabe]

Looking better than before

Good work Daisho!

 

[Dumbfire]

Looks good now.

 

[Cable]

Front page looks awesome good stuff Daisho

 

[Judo777]

DK mains never forget. You are HUUUUUUGGGGGEEEEEE! Who cares if MK gets tons of free hits. You always can turn the tide with one good read. Donkey Punch is an automatic Im hitting you cause i guess when you were gonna attack. Dont get me wrong i dont play DK that much (although i kinda play everyone) and DK seems to be one of those characters that you just have to stay and calm and realize that ur bigger than ur opponent and they arent allowed to stop thinking. That is DK's biggest strength IMO.

Idk just felt like posting

 

[Neon9837]

Under dealing with specific moves we need to write something about falco's lasers and side-b. Obviously it's very hard to deal with and is the main reason i think falcos does better vs dk than mk does.

It's extremely difficult to PS all of his lasers because he can time them differently with each jump because we are so tall. This means we can't get into a rhythm when it some to shielding. This wouldnt be so bad if he didnt have side-b though, they go hand in hand. Phantasm comes out fast and makes him invincible (or SA, I'm not sure) during the beginning of the move. You're reactions to these moves must be precise or you will take a lot of unnecessary damage.

I'm sure most of you have seen this match, but I just wanted to show how effective this strategy even in high level play. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2lrLWQ6XQM

I honestly can't think of any realistic counters to this strategy, it needs to be addressed.

 

[Eazy23]

Step 1: avoid chain grab by either camping the platform, or camping the sides. Going for risky dtilts/ftilts that arent even safe on hit= getting cg'd.

Step 2- Jump alot. You can minimize the damage you take by forcing falco to hit you with only lasers and nair. If ur on the ground, dacus will **** you so quickly.

3. Bait side B. Alot of players for some reason can not do this. As most falco players tend to jump into auto pilot, its easy to get them to side B. Condition them and punish.


Also, I believe SV is the worst stage for this matchup...so ban it.
Dk lives longer on fd, has less of a chance of getting spiked from cg, the stage can gimp falco, and all around adds an increase in Dk's movement.

 

[Cable]

Also, I believe SV is the worst stage for this matchup...so ban it.
Dk lives longer on fd, has less of a chance of getting spiked from cg, the stage can gimp falco, and all around adds an increase in Dk's movement.

We spoke about this before and I have to agree with you I do believe FD can be a bit better than SV due to the CG living more etc.
Another thing I've been thinking about is I believe its better to fight Diddy on FD rather than SV just because you have more space to get away from those bananas just dnt mess up and get banana locked

Btw I see you posting now Eazy good stuff new DK main LOL

 

[DtJ S2n]

It's hard to say how to deal with Falco's camping, because he can be versatile with it. I don't think there's a set way of doing it, other than watching for patterns in his lasers and side-bs and try to predict them. Just be patient if he has his camping already set-up.

I can see what you mean by FD decreasing the chances of getting CG > spike, but I think the moving platform is too valuable for DK to give up. It's just a really safe place to charge punches, which what I think DK should be spending most of his first 50% doing here; charging punches and looking for opportunities to get it. After all, one good punch does nearly 30%, and relative to weight that's the same amount as a CG does to us.

 

[Neon!]

Theres a bunch of random stuff I did at MLG Dallas and Im not sure whether it's guaranteed or not. Unfortunately I left my SD card in one of the wiis and wont be able to upload the replays.

"Neon Combo" This combo worked on every mk and snake i played as well DEHF's falco. Seems to work best when opponents are 10-20% (Note: didnt work every single time)

Grab>Cargo Hold>Short Hop>Jab

If the opponent mashes out right before you reach the ground and Dk does not get caught in his cargo grab release animation you can usually get his jab out. Seems very situational but it worked so many times throughout the tournament Id like to think it might turn out to be very useful.

Dk has a legitimate CG on some characters that I have not seen many players using. I was able to CG Havok's mk twice when he was at 0% and then finished with ftilt. The damage may be insignificant but his dthrow follow ups needs to be explored more.

 

[¿Qué?]

Theres a bunch of random stuff I did at MLG Dallas and Im not sure whether it's guaranteed or not. Unfortunately I left my SD card in one of the wiis and wont be able to upload the replays.

"Neon Combo" This combo worked on every mk and snake i played as well DEHF's falco. Seems to work best when opponents are 10-20% (Note: didnt work every single time)

Grab>Cargo Hold>Short Hop>Jab

If the opponent mashes out right before you reach the ground and Dk does not get caught in his cargo grab release animation you can usually get his jab out. Seems very situational but it worked so many times throughout the tournament Id like to think it might turn out to be very useful.

Dk has a legitimate CG on some characters that I have not seen many players using. I was able to CG Havok's mk twice when he was at 0% and then finished with ftilt. The damage may be insignificant but his dthrow follow ups needs to be explored more.

DK shouldn't be too based on damage from a chain grab, anyway. He does enough of that and on top of that, kills early. It's just really nice to get some great placement set ups at early percents like that, because it leads to more damage for easier kills.

I definitely agree that the chain grab should be explored more.

 

[Scabe]

Is there any way to make DK's cargo release an advantage for DK when he goes offstage?

I somehow got cargo released and then footstooled to my death.

 

[Neon!]

Is there any way to make DK's cargo release an advantage for DK when he goes offstage?

I somehow got cargo released and then footstooled to my death.

I've done this to a ness before. Im not sure how the mechanics work but if the opponent ends up below you after the cargo hold you can footstool them.

 

[Cable]

Is there any way to make DK's cargo release an advantage for DK when he goes offstage?

I somehow got cargo released and then footstooled to my death.

You can do a footstool but also if you cargo grab your opponent and if you jump off stage and when they get released you can automatically bair them and it would it.

 

[Ripple]

buffer an Up-b. it'll beat every attack in the game that they buffer except MK's up air

 

[¿Qué?]

buffer an Up-b. it'll beat every attack in the game that they buffer except MK.

Fixed.

​

 

[Chaosgriffin]

DK has no CG on any character. I personally tested it on every character, and every character can either side step or jump away before DK can grab again.

Only CG DK has is on Smashville, RC and picto i think.

 

[Neon!]

DK has no CG on any character. I personally tested it on every character, and every character can either side step or jump away before DK can grab again.

Only CG DK has is on Smashville, RC and picto i think.

I'm pretty sure he has at least one guaranteed re-grab on mk and falco, and i know he has at least 2 on zss. These werent just one time occurences, i performed these chain grabs consistently at mlg dallas against a few well known names (havok, dakpo, dehf).

 

[Ripple]

I'm pretty sure he has at least one guaranteed re-grab on mk and falco, and i know he has at least 2 on zss. These werent just one time occurences, i performed these chain grabs consistently at mlg dallas against a few well known names (havok, dakpo, dehf).

there is no guaranteed chaingrab. I told you this personally. everyone expects a f-tilt or down b after the d-throw and just shields instead

 

[¿Qué?]

there is no guaranteed chaingrab. I told you this personally. everyone expects a f-tilt or down b after the d-throw and just shields instead

I'm sry Neon. I don't mean to shoot out your idea so suddenly, but that makes ridiculously good sense. It's a great mix-up though. Keep that in mind.

 

[crifer]

DK´s only true CG @ 6:28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeYL5UGC8TY

 

[Neon!]

Like I said I dont have any videos from dallas but i know the cg is guaranteed on zss its just really hard to do. It's almost as hard as marth's grab release spike on metaknight. Mike Haze and MR. R are beginning to perform this technique more often when just a few months ago the majority of the communty would have consider it a gimmick. More dks need to practice this technique even if all you do is dthrow>dthrow>ftilt. That extra 7% is worth it.

 

[Chaosgriffin]

I am sorry but it is not garunteed. The people who you did it on probably did not expect a CG from DK. So they did not sidestep, thats what hapenned to me and my friends. THey did not expect a CG so they did not sidetsep.

Every character can either sidestep or even jump away in time. including ZSS.

 

[DtJ S2n]

Has anyone tried to d-throw CG going up a slope? I know that I've gotten regrabs that looked really solid like that, but I'm not sure if it's guaranteed. It's worth testing at least.

 

[Silfa]

Ripple's right, most people will sheild after a dthrow which generally lets you get another grab. I'm guessing (with no real basis, let me know if I'm wrong) that it takes longer for ZSS to recover from the throw and this can help in getting a second grab. Chances are they won't be trying to dodge or jump most of the time.

 

[Big O]

I just wanted to point out you can actually CG a few characters with Dthrow. You need to be pretty much frame perfect for it to work though. Dthrow, run for like 7 frames, and then dash grab. I don't remember who it works on, but I know it works on MK for sure. I think it works on Falco and ZSS too but I'm not 100% sure on those 2.

Even though it is probably too hard to do consistently, it still works nicely as a 50-50 mixup. They are forced to spot dodge if they want to avoid the grab so if they think you will go for the grab you can just bait the spot dodge.

 

[Chaosgriffin]

I just wanted to point out you can actually CG a few characters with Dthrow. You need to be pretty much frame perfect for it to work though. Dthrow, run for like 7 frames, and then dash grab. I don't remember who it works on, but I know it works on MK for sure. I think it works on Falco and ZSS too but I'm not 100% sure on those 2.

Even though it is probably too hard to do consistently, it still works nicely as a 50-50 mixup. They are forced to spot dodge if they want to avoid the grab so if they think you will go for the grab you can just bait the spot dodge.

I frame tested it with the frame hack you gave me a while back, and it does not work.
But....you do have more xp when it comes to frames, so maybe i was doing something wrong.

 

[Neon!]

I just wanted to point out you can actually CG a few characters with Dthrow. You need to be pretty much frame perfect for it to work though. Dthrow, run for like 7 frames, and then dash grab. I don't remember who it works on, but I know it works on MK for sure. I think it works on Falco and ZSS too but I'm not 100% sure on those 2.

Even though it is probably too hard to do consistently, it still works nicely as a 50-50 mixup. They are forced to spot dodge if they want to avoid the grab so if they think you will go for the grab you can just bait the spot dodge.

Thanks for backing me up, I dont know too much about frame data but I was able to pull it off consistently at dallas against every mk i played (usually just 1 sometimes 2 regrabs) and a few falcos and zss's. I figured it had to be frame perfect since not too many dks do this.

 

[Big O]

I frame tested it with the frame hack you gave me a while back, and it does not work.
But....you do have more xp when it comes to frames, so maybe i was doing something wrong.

Well the thing is you have to run for a very specific amount of time. Basically you run as close as you can and start the dash grab 9 frames before they recover (since spot dodges are active frame 2 they can't avoid it). If you don't buffer the dash or hold the control stick all the way forward, it may not work. In general you get like 17-20 frames of advantage after the Dthrow on those characters, so the time you spend running varies a bit with character and %.

 

[Neon!]

Well the thing is you have to run for a very specific amount of time. Basically you run as close as you can and start the dash grab 9 frames before they recover (since spot dodges are active frame 2 they can't avoid it). If you don't buffer the dash or hold the control stick all the way forward, it may not work. In general you get like 17-20 frames of advantage after the Dthrow on those characters, so the time you spend running varies a bit with character and %.

Ive been performing it without dashing at all, i usually just walk after the d-throw like most falco's do now.