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Counterpicking Made Peachy

Crystanium

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No. The walls will prevent Samus from backing up and zairing, and retreating to the edge while camping lines you up for low percent kills.
That can be said of anyone. I beat a King Dedede on that stage, and we know King Dedede has the advantage against Samus. Also, please watch this. Oh, and in that video, the opponent that is being fought is a heavier character than Peach.

Peach has more kill options than Samus, and unlike other stages, doesn't have to worry about sale moves nearly as much (plus, can refresh stale moves via turnips and peach bomber against the Greens blocks).
The same can be said for Samus with the blocks as well as KO'ing early, since that stage has a small blast zone. She doesn't need anything more than her Charge Shot or f-smash to KO someone off the stage of Green Greens.

I can't see how Greens is anything but a Peach advantage stage here.
And I can't see how Green Greens isn't anything but a stage that favors Samus. See how both of our opinions mean nothing when we say this very thing?
 

deepseadiva

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That can be said of anyone. I beat a King Dedede on that stage, and we know King Dedede has the advantage against Samus. Also, please watch this. Oh, and in that video, the opponent that is being fought is a heavier character than Peach.
Did you plank? :psycho:

We also take ROB to Green Greens too!

The same can be said for Samus with the blocks as well as KO'ing early, since that stage has a small blast zone. She doesn't need anything more than her Charge Shot or f-smash to KO someone off the stage of Green Greens.
Yea, but I don't think Samus has to worry too much about her fsmash decaying as much as we have to worry about fair. Both KO earlier, but Peach's moves gain a better advantage.

And I can't see how Green Greens isn't anything but a stage that favors Samus. See how both of our opinions mean nothing when we say this very thing?
Both character can be good on a stage, nobody says they can't. But Peach does better since her KO options widen and kill earlier, while Samus just... kills earlier.
 

Crystanium

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Did you plank? :psycho:
Nah. I stayed in the center when he was in the air. I'd use my u-air, thanks to the passable platforms. It's closed in, so those bombs mess you up if you're not careful.

Both KO earlier, but Peach's moves gain a better advantage.
Explain.

Both character can be good on a stage, nobody says they can't. But Peach does better since her KO options widen and kill earlier, while Samus just... kills earlier.
Killing earlier is all we need.
 

deepseadiva

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Unfortunately as Peach, our best moves also happen to be our KO moves. Decay wrecks us. But on a stage that nullifies this, Peach excels.

Everyone kills earlier on Green Greens - MK, Game & Watch, even Samus.

The thing for Peach is that our Tornado, our Turtle, our zair, actually KOs on this stage.

Killing earlier is all we need.
Ah, but same goes for Peach.

When both parties can do so earlier, it's the one who can do so faster that wins.
 

Crystanium

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Ah, but same goes for Peach.

When both parties can do so earlier, it's the one who can do so faster that wins.
I don't know how it would be easy for Peach to land a f-air at the side of the stage. Let's take the side for example where the edge is at. Often times, I see a Peach player use f-air when hovering, but never when short hopping. That's going to be difficult to land, especially if those blocks and bombs are dropping. There is very limited space on each side. I guess this stage just shouldn't be used at all, since it seems to work both ways.
 

Snakeee

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Sorry to post about a different character, but I couldn't find much of anything on Diddy here and I'm not sure if he was covered or not yet.

See I used Peach against ADHD yesterday in tourney, and I was able to win a game and have a close set. I was wondering what would be good counters for him besides RC (he always bans that). I figure Brinstar is the best choice, but he's really good there and I lost on that stage although it was close and a couple of stupid things happened there, but no johns lol. Meh, most likely Brinstar is actually the best bet, but I'd like to hear the other options.

Btw, I disagree on what's there for ZSS. I wouldn't say you should worry about PS1. I'd say they go about even there. And Rainbow Cruise you have completely backwards O_O. That's the first stage you should BAN against a good ZSS main. The rest of them are good, except you should also avoid Lylat against her. That would be the second worst stage to fight her.
 

deepseadiva

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I'll amend the Zamus info then. ^^

We didn't seem to have much info on Diddy...
We did discuss him before though. I'll go ahead and do a bit of research soon regardless, as I've been planning on fleshing out the character notes once we finish up the weekly match-up discussion.

We move on to discussion Ganondorf in the meantime. :bee:
 

Squirrely

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Ganons prefer flat ground for easier auto canceled aerials, and have sub-par recovery.
Most stages aren't great for Ganon unsurprisingly.

My picks when it's Peach vs. Ganondorf:

-Good for Ganondorf-
Battlefield
Smashville
Brinstar
Norfair
Pirate Ship

-Bad for Ganondorf-
Jungle Japes (ganoncide victims go down stream first but immediately floating out ruins this idea :-/ )
Luigi's Mansion
Rainbow Cruise
Distant Planet
Frigate Orpheon (getting jammed by stage flips :( )

Everything else is pretty neutral. Ganon has a very punishable recovery so picking places where he's forced to recover is always a good idea. He's good at attacking chars on platforms. Delfino is usually in Ganon's favor but since Peach can float forever during stage flights and can avoid stomps in the beach area it's probably closer to even here.
 

Praxis

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Yoshi's Island seems like it'd be good- Peach can turnip camp like crazy there and it'd mess up his autocancels, plus being on a platform above Peach is a BAD IDEA with her utilt xD

Also, Delfino is a curious one. Peach can groundfloat in water (Waterfloating/Jesuswalking xD) and back up- if you whiff your dair because she moved, she gets a free aerial of choice since she can perform any aerial while floating in the water. But her float speed is slow and if she gets spiked she's screwed xD Doubly effective on pirate ship where aerial of choice = a fair into the boat for a stagespike- but Pirate Ship seems like it'd be your CP of choice here, since getting gimped is your worst problem in this matchup.

And of course, Japes = good. Peach can always float out of water for a guaranteed recovery, so no Ganoncide, she can turnip camp with the stage's sides, she can side B to the ledges for invulnerability, and she can still gimp Ganon since he'll have a hard time getting out of the water.
 

hiROI

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I say its 70-30 Peach. With Ganon's natural size, he is easy to rack up damage. But as Praxis said, her Float Speed isn't to brag about, but what are the possibilities of Peach being under Ganon? Not many, I suppose. Too bad in Florida, Jungle Japes is banned :(
 

Eddie G

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I say its 70-30 Peach. With Ganon's natural size, he is easy to rack up damage. But as Praxis said, her Float Speed isn't to brag about, but what are the possibilities of Peach being under Ganon? Not many, I suppose. Too bad in Florida, Jungle Japes is banned :(
Peach is always on top. O.~
 

Praxis

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I say its 70-30 Peach. With Ganon's natural size, he is easy to rack up damage. But as Praxis said, her Float Speed isn't to brag about, but what are the possibilities of Peach being under Ganon? Not many, I suppose. Too bad in Florida, Jungle Japes is banned :(
WHAAAAAT?

Seriously, get me in contact with your tournament organizers, I will convince them to legalize it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it- the Klaptrap is on timer, not random.
 

Noa.

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WHAAAAAT?

Seriously, get me in contact with your tournament organizers, I will convince them to legalize it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it- the Klaptrap is on timer, not random.
Florida's stage list is pretty conservative. We have the five neutrals, Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat Cruise and Yoshi's Island.

Our counterpicks are:
Norfair
Brinstar
Frigate Orpheon
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium
Pokemon Stadium 2
Pirate Ship
Delfino Plaza
Luigi's Mansion
Castle Siege

Very limited and small. We play on a total of 15 stages. I would honestly kill to have either Green Greens, Corneria or Rainbow Cruise legal.
 

hiROI

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WHAAAAAT?

Seriously, get me in contact with your tournament organizers, I will convince them to legalize it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it- the Klaptrap is on timer, not random.
Please do! I feel as if many players are being constricted. But I think the organizers is Mwarhead. He hosts Gigabits, which are FL's biggest monthlies. In March, we reached 146 or around there players for singles.
 

Praxis

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Wait wait.
Luigi's Mansion is legal while Japes is banned?
wow. 0.o Japes is universally legal on west coast, while Mansion is banned in NorCal and WA and Oregon IIRC but not SoCal. Any complains you can use on Japes (camping) are 10x worse on Mansion.

Greens is questionable, Corneria is questionable, Rainbow Cruise and Japes are pretty universal. I'll try to get in contact with Mwarhead (is there a good email? PM me perhaps).
 

Noa.

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Mwarhead is only a TO for Gigs, but he doesn't play smash himself. He just uses the ruleset that the players give him. The people you would really want to talk to are Seibrik and Hungrybox. Seibrik is the best in state and hold a lot of influence I guess you could say. Hungrybox is 5th and he hosts a couple of tournies(WATO). THose people might be better suited fo convincing. I'm not sure if they have emails, but they do have accounts and they go on regularly.
 

hiROI

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I would recommend to talk to Seibrik. At tourneys, he is usually the one going around organizing and making sure things run smoothly. Also, the number one player in FL, people would most likely take is opinion into consideration. But there are other tournys, like the Florida Gaming, which is run by Florida Gaming (thats the users name) which also ban Japes.
 

deepseadiva

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Thanks Rick - I'm thrilled about Corneria. What else was fully banned?

So, the Captain...

I'm thinking Jungle Japes and Luigi's covers him pretty well. FD even if we wanted to camp him to death.
 

Winnar

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Falcon player here!

I wouldn't count too much on being able to camp a good Falcon. Not if you're using turnips to camp.

I don't play too many peaches, but if I had to counterpick Peach (as Falcon) I'd probably go...battlefield? Maybe Brinstar?

Actually I probably shouldn't be the one giving advice here! D:

Also anything with a () after it has been moved to fully banned, nothing has been unbanned:
Banned
75m
Big Blue
Bridge of Eldin
Corneria (moved from C)
Flat Zone 2
Green Hill Zone (moved from C)
Hanenbow
Hyrule Temple
Mario Bros.
Mario Circuit (moved from C/B)
Mushroomy Kingdom I
Mushroomy Kingdom II
New Pork City
Onett (moved from C/B)
Rumble Falls
Shadow Moses
Skyworld (moved from C/B)
Spear Pillar
The Summit
Wario Ware
 

t3h n00b

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I'm thinking Jungle Japes and Luigi's covers him pretty well. FD even if we wanted to camp him to death.
The first two are probably Falcon's best stages, or at least close. I know Peach is pretty light, but it takes insane amounts of damage to KO Falcon at the top blastline because of his weight and fall speed there. And he has knee shenanigans at Luigi's Mansion. Basically, on Japes, Falcon just has to DI everything up, and can abuse Raptor Boost for a relatively safe spike attempt, and the platform allows for decent amount of uair spamming. If they are your most comfortable stages, it's not like Falcon will **** you there or anything, but they probably help him more than they hurt Peach. FD is decent against him, it's probably the best neutral for camping like you said, but Falcon is the one of the best against camping out of all the characters with no projectiles. He has extremely high jumps, bair or jab (among other things) can stop turnips, and Falcon has an extremely fast dash, so I don't think camping will be very effective, but FD isn't a great stage for Falcon. Norfair is the only other stage besides Japes and Mansion that you wouldn't want to take Falcon, imo.

As far as bad stages go, I actually took a lot of time thinking about it and asking someone, and I really can't think of any terrible stages, although there are some counterpick stages I don't play much. The only thing, to me, that would be a pretty good cp for Peach against Falcon is Frigate Orpheon. I don't think it's a terrible Falcon stage, but he has a crazy edge sweetspot reach on Falcon Dive, and without a grabbable ledge on the right side of the first transformation, recovering is tougher. And, if the stage flips when both are in midair, Peach has a far better horizontal recovery, but watch out for Falcon Dive latching onto you, Falcon can use it again afterwards.
 

deepseadiva

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Okaies, with the match-up thread done with, we've still been mysteriously left with one character! It's Wolf. Let's wrap up this space animal and then we can all share the cookies.

We also didn't do Lucario, but we ended up with information on him anyway. :p
 

Razmakazi

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Japes, Lylat.

can't recover at all.

i wanna say RC but that stage kinda forces us to fight in the air more meaning moar bair abuse. ;o
 

deepseadiva

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Oh, look what you people bumped.

The list is still up to date - Ruleset v.2 is the most current version, no? I'm still including Counter-Banned, which is why you'll see odd stuff like Luigi's Mansion.
 
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