Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[blackghost]

I personally think that Smash players are far too quick to jump the gun on talk of bans, and even when something actually kind of problematic presents itself (like Brawl MK or Sm4sh Bayo) the community cannot universally agree on bans. Wobbling is still a controversy after almost 20 years of existence, and people can't unite on a position regarding it.

Smash players have also never seen a genuinely problematic character. Super Turbo Akuma and Alpha 3 Gill make MK and Bayo look like mid tiers.

I think arguments toward banning the Hero are silly (RNG in a character and RNG in a stage are two entirely different things.. banning based on RNG also is a slippery slope because then people are gonna start ******** about the other examples of character RNG because why pick favorites right?) and I also don't even see an actual ban coming to fruition, even in doubles.

This thread also probably isn't the ideal place to discuss why you think Leffen is right and The Hero should be banned.

the discussion of a ban does belong in this thread as the ban would be purely competitive in nature. but I find the idea of a ban ridiculous. i'm watching the hero games and some of these stronger spells show up maybe once or twice a set and often can't even be used for a variety of reasons. the smash community doesnt know what a real problem character is i agree with you. smash has never seen a war machine, red venom, mvc 3 phoenix, or sc4 hilde. most of the top tiers in the series history outside of brawl mk didnt have arguments for bans.

banning a character becuase of something he COULD do is a bad precedent. keep in mind ultimate has genuine 0 to deaths already. it has inescapable shield break setups, and these characters always have access to them and arent on a resource. i genuinely believe if this character was not DLC i wouldn't hear a word about a ban.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I personally think that Smash players are far too quick to jump the gun on talk of bans, and even when something actually kind of problematic presents itself (like Brawl MK or Sm4sh Bayo) the community cannot universally agree on bans.

If anything, the community is too bad at actually banning things in time. Duck Hunt (the stage) should not have lasted until 2016, and even then some prominent players (such as ESAM) defended it. One could make the argument that Bayonetta shouldn't have been banned in Smash 4 (she wasn't), but doubles Cloud and Brawl Meta Knight almost definitely should have been banned (doubles Cloud was near the end in some places).

Hero is a very new case because unlike Meta Knight, Bayonetta, and doubles Cloud, he's not clearly the #1 character in the game right now (although perhaps he will be in the future), but he brings a lot of RNG to the table, more than any character ever before. Playing against Hero is, in some cases, comparable to playing with Items On. It's no surprise many people don't want him in tournaments, since the introduction of that much RNG can severely harm the competitive environment.

All this being said, I suggest we take this discussion elsewhere, or else it'll dominate the thread for quite some time.

So... Mewtwo is pretty good now, eh?

 

[ZephyrZ]

I guess I just don't see Hero's RNG as being fundamentally more dishonest compared, say, going for random Ganondorf F-smash "reads" out of the blue. Either way you can clutch a game away from a better player if you're lucky but you're not going to be able to be consistent with it unless you're really smart with how you do it.

I suppose there is a case that a Ganondorf F-smash is a player interaction that depends on Ganon's for slipping up, but Hero's needs breathing room and a decently full mana gauge to fish for a down b as well. If you're offstage and he has enough mana to kill you at 40% with a mana burst it might still be "dishonest" but he still had to something to find himself in that position in the first place.

It's not ideal but its not quite the same as random item spawns that can happen anywhere in a match regardless of how either player is playing.

I also think too many people are seeing him as Down Special: The Character. That may be his main draw but his aerials, tilts and neutral/side specials are really important to his gameplan as well and aren't dependant on RNG.

 

[Spinosaurus]

The menu isn't even what's bonkers about the character. (Or rather, it's bonkers, but he's not short on stuff like that lol.)

My personal opinion right now is that Hero's best move is Frizz, largely for the uncharged version, but they're all very good. Same for his other specials.

 

[Emblem Lord]

To clarify it does not drop, it skips frames. The actual inconsistency in this regard boils down to stages (which skip frames variably) but it does not eat inputs unless there is a super flash OR the game slows down during projectile hit.

Its actually programmed to skip frames at preset intervals. Now if you're talking about RNG you can probably make a dissertation about how bad its random damage and stun is, but the actual variance is exaggerated by most people. It's not truly "random" so much as it is a value that has a minimum and maximum number, and it rolls and does math based on damage tables per move. So while your Shoryuken might do a bit less, it will never do less than a specified minimum amount, and it will never do more than a maximum amount either.

There are other interactions too like the 50/50 coin flip on same frame throws, and etc. But I can't call it a disgrace because there was no precedent for anything before SF2. Its more a testament to how much RNG you can have if the basic game has a competitive enough structure under the hood, and SF2 proves it is very possible.

Just felt like clarifying.

I call it laziness.

ALOT of this stuff still existed in ST (you could throw soften though), but that was magically acceptable Oh, wait it was not. Not now and not back then.

I won't pull my punches because it's a classic.

They tried some things and those "random" elements were dumb. They didn't make the game better.

/endrant

 

[TTTTTsd]

The menu isn't even what's bonkers about the character. (Or rather, it's bonkers, but he's not short on stuff like that lol.)

My personal opinion right now is that Hero's best move is Frizz, largely for the uncharged version, but they're all very good. Same for his other specials.

I think you're on the money with this, but I specifically think uncharged and partial charge Side-B are his best moves interchangeably, depending on how much resources you have to burn.

I call it laziness.

ALOT of this stuff still existed in ST (you could throw soften though), but that was magically acceptable Oh, wait it was not. Not now and not back then.

I won't pull my punches because it's a classic.

They tried some things and those "random" elements were dumb. They didn't make the game better.

/endrant

I think this is a really narrow way of looking at how like, a game that literally defined a genre was made. Yes its technically "bad design" but my argument was never that it was good, it was that in spite of that the game's fundamentally good elements outshone it, and that the bad elements were there because the game was old and trying new things. Old Capcom used to push the bill a lot in Fighting Games and I kind of miss that, that's what spices the genre up. Children of the Atom had throw teching locked behind meter usage (lmao) but it also didn't give you meter on hit. Yes this is an objectively bad idea, but it was experimental and trying new stuff.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I suppose these past experiments didn't teach Capcom much judging by the current state of SFV and losing the main Sunday slot at EVO to Ultimate.

On Topic: Hero is solid. No way is he top tier. But no worse than mid tier.

 

[SwagGuy99]

What does anyone think of the Hero's potential MU's

I'm not sure as he's only been out for about 48 hours.

I can make some guesses though, based on what I know.

So what are some of hero's defining attributes?

• Poor movement in the air but decent movement on the ground.
• He has disjointed attacks.
• Several of his normal attacks are a bit laggy. This (in combination with his fast fall speed, weight, and poor air movement makes him susceptible to combos).
• He has a shield.
• Decent attack power on normals.
• Is able to use different attacks of varying utility when using down-b. All of these attacks use MP which is limited to 100 max.
• Hero has some very good gimmick attacks which can be used to do things like OHKO the opponent or put the opponent into a bad position.
• Hero also has some very bad gimmick attacks that can actually harm Hero.

So, Hero is a pretty mixed bag when looking at his attributes and characteristics. However, Hero (like Bowser) is a character you always have to be afraid of due to the fact that he can randomly kill you at times if he has a powerful spell.

So, I think that characters with some combination of decent frame data, a balance of good offensive and defensive capabilities, good disjoints/long range, high combo potential, and decent survivability will do well against Hero.

So here who I think might do well against Hero (take this with a grain of salt).

Characters who can approach Hero before he can react and deal lots of damage when they do:

Characters with decent disjoints/projectiles that can keep Hero away from them:

Characters who can survive for a while against Hero and can still approach/keep him away despite their high weight (and oftentimes slow speed): and maybe .

Keep in mind, these aren't necessarily losing matchups for Hero, but I can see all of these characters having one or two things about them that can make their matchup verses Hero much harder for Hero to do well in. (Again, take this list with a grain of salt).

Edit: Hero is probably a high tier. Too much RNG to be a top tier at the moment, but in a few months, if Hero is optimized (or not played by anyone of note) my opinion on how good he is will probably change.

Edit 2: Grammar

 

[Nathan Richardson]

As an old man, I will be the first to tell you that the rng present in SF2 is a disgrace and it never should have existed.

SF2 drops frames randomly for heaven's sake. That is why ST is not a link heavy game despite every character having high damage link combos. A 3 frame link will sometimes turn into a 1 frame with no indicator until you actually land the first hit of the combo.

Can you translate what ST stands for? I know that SF2 stands for Street Fighter 2. What does ST stand for? For the clueless guy over here.

 

[Guynamednelson]

Can you translate what ST stands for? I know that SF2 stands for Street Fighter 2. What does ST stand for? For the clueless guy over here.

Super (Street Fighter II) Turbo.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Super (Street Fighter II) Turbo.

Thank you, btw what do the new patch buffs mean for characters aside from zard (which I main) I took on an Isabella that utterly trashed me due to her buffed Lloyd trap easily shutting down any aerial attempt to approach and even though I was only caught by her rod a couple of times when I was caught it HURT.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Video title says it all.

 

[Anomika]

So it seems like that some fighters that get jab buff are also able to do wobbling with it. First R.O.B. and now Isabelle. Hopefully they'll fix this.

https://twitter.com/kyle_roath/status/1157134683890544642

 

[VodkaHaze]

So it seems like that some fighters that get jab buff are also able to do wobbling with it. First R.O.B. and now Isabelle. Hopefully they'll fix this.

https://twitter.com/kyle_roath/status/1157134683890544642

That'll probably get fixed in a future patch. Hopefully they compensate for it as well.

 

[Anomika]

They almost definitely will. R.O.B. and Little Mac got their jabs nerfed in this patch, so Isabelle will almost definitely be the next.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Ok messing with Hero more and more.

I said before he has amazing option coverage and land traps with spells, which is factual. He can even trap characters such as Joker and ZSS, which is HUGE.

But....

He NEEDS mp to do this. Without his spells his ability to apply pressure is mediocre at best.

His jab combo for example, creates a ground techable scenario even at low percents. But without a level 2 or 3 neutral b, he has problems locking down his opponents. Jump forward level 2 Zap is also a great option.

If you try to rely on his normals alone he just won't function properly.

 

[DungeonMaster]

I too am old and have seen my fair share of RNG in traditional fighters. In this particular engine I think having RNG the character is fine.

My reasoning isn't a debate on RNG as a mechanic, more the other mechanics of the game downplay the impact of his specific RNG. The game has some very powerful moves and some very damaging combos as it stands. Several characters can take you from zero to 100 in 2 confirms and kill on the 3rd. There are many moves like ganon f-smash, charge shot offstage, even basic normals like bairs offstage that can kill sub 50. There are already before hero excellent edge guard and ledge trap tools. Hero gets access to some of those aspects randomly.

In other words: If this was a Brawl engine at its core, with few poor combos, all stocks going to basically 150+ because of overall weak knockback and crazy sdi, no good ledge traps and pretty basic edge guarding - for sure giant magic bursts that cover the screen would be broken. But in ultimate, it's more like par for course.

And there's also a built in mechanic for reducing hero's RNG: AVOID THE SWORD. That simple. Don't let him hit you with his sword. You can starve him for mana very quickly. Don't let him hit your shield, spot dodge or roll. Shield the magic at far and mid range, when he gets close dodge. Hero is criminally weak with no MP.

My assesment is he's a fine mid tier and competitively will be used as a pocket for those desperate moments when the main and secondary have failed and you go for broke, as he should be. Similar to Ganon.

 

[|RK|]

I keep accidentally going to the first page of this thread, and I get so baffled by the takes until I see the date.

Anyways, Hero's MP & risk management seems major key. Some of his most ridiculous stuff comes from people messing around, but... May be good later on to just watch his MP bar.

Fun fact, if he charges a Kafrizzle and doesn't have the MP for it, he cannot use any of the Frizz series until he gets enough MP. So you can safely ignore the option for a spell.

 

[blackghost]

i think i've seen enough to be more confident of my assessment of him. He cannot handle the extremes of either rushdown nor zoning. i do not consider hoping for bounce to be a gameplan nor is it a sustainable one.

much if his counter play is simple rush him down so he can't breathe or read his menus to fish for answers. even character with poor frame data: bayonetta or ganon ect and the works can rush him. the only things to watch out for are frizz lvl 3 and side b. side b is a good move but it cannot be stored and as a result is highly telegraphed.

if you are going to zone him don't block friz lvl 3 with your face and you should be fine. even if bounce comes up all that does is put him on a timer to start offense the zoner isnt on a timer. the zoner just waits it out.

he is not mobile, he has a eak recovery game, very few combos, no grab game, slow normals, and has glaring holes as stated in a few posts above me. he will show up in tournement play because people like playing him but he's not a higher top tier not even potentially in his current state. while he launches in a much better state than PP did, he is not joker.

other than that Mus that are gonna be a bad time for hero that i've seen: fox, zss, palutena (like this is painful that shield doesnt care), pikachu, and joker. villager i can see being bad but i havent seen it for myself yet.

 

[Gleam]

Hero's RNG, or specific moves brings up a very real issue with the character. People act like "Well Game and Watch has RNG" but GW has ONE RNG element and frankly I think Judge9 needs to be severely weakened and be less likely to appear. But imagine if Judge9 was a projectile. Imagine if Judge9 wasn't a small hammer but a giant Double Dedede sized mallet? What if every so often GW could go to the edge, Down-B and instead of a bucket, he put down a half-staged nuclear bomb that killed at 30%.

Hero isn't broken like Brawl Meta Knight or Smash4 Bayonetta, he's not the kind of character who can oppress you. But he's the kind of character who every so often is given tools that are, with very rare exceptions, impossible to deal with. I think it would be fair that, if nothing else OHKO moves and Magic Burst should be banned. Hero's already killing at 30%, he doesn't need two different OHKO moves, one which is a projectile and the other which is fatter than Dedede. Because it's not a question of how "rare" it is, it's a notion of (especially in Magic Bursts case) creating a problem that can't be avoided whatsoever.

I'd say the same thing about Hocus Pocus due to "Giant Form" and "Invincibility" but there is such a risk in using that move that I'd kind of be willing to let that one pass. There is a high risk to reward there, probably far more risk than reward actually.

And then there's issues that have been brought up before such as language barriers. You have international tournaments in which opponents will not be able to read the list which just gives Hero another unfair advantage. But it's the issues of things like "Magic Burst" that I think need real discussion.

 

[SwagGuy99]

But it's the issues of things like "Magic Burst" that I think need real discussion.

Well, speaking of Magic Burst...

I haven't seen this mentioned on this thread yet but I found it interesting and I thought I'd share. I know what most people's opinions on Reddit are but I found this on there today. Apparently, Bowser can Tough Guy almost all of Hero's Magic Burst until Bowser reaches around 400%. Given the amount of time that Magic Burst is active for and Bowser's fast movement speed, the move is basically useless in that specific matchup because it will almost always be punished (and we all know how good Bowser's punish game is...).

 

[Thinkaman]

Aside: I just want to push back on the retrospective consensus that Brawl Metaknight was blah blah blah, and acknowledge that there are plenty of (non-MK) Brawl players like myself who believed (and still believe) the idea of a MK ban to be utterly ridiculous.

In fact, we were the majority, which is why the feeble ban attempts never worked. What, you think *M2K* manipulated the community with charisma and deft political maneuvering?

I don't bring this up to resurrect a meaningless debate on a dead game, but The Legend of Brawl MK has become an increasingly inaccurate folk lore, especially as it gets repeated by folks who weren't even around in that era. (And now the same thing is happening to Bayo.) Chances are allusions to Brawl MK do not help whatever point about Ultimate you are trying to make.

The real lesson from Brawl MK is the cost of bad stage policy and stage apathy. Casually saying "let's just go to smashville" had costs and consequences, as will playing every game on hazardless PS2.

 

[Sean²]

I don't think Hero's down B RNG is that big of an issue. It's more the random critical hits that make him scary. Otherwise he's easy to combo, with an awful disadvantage state, and human error can decimate his RNG down B. Kamikazee is something you can do to yourself with a finger slip. Or Kaclang offstage. Like, if you're looking for a K in the menu for a different attack, you can just end up dying for splitting your attention too much. Or end up too deep without enough Mana to recover.

He's bad against rushdowns, bad against heavy zoners without Bounce, and can be comboed to hell and back because he has no real free exit from disadvantage. His best OOS option is up B, which you can't really rely on to free you from those situations.

I think he's good, just really inconsistent due to the RNG nature of his attacks. I always see people talk about his RNG like there are no negatives to it. Like, you can completely screw yourself with one misclick or take a chance that doesn't play to your favor. I've killed at 30% but have also had people live to 200 because RNG wasn't on my side for that stock. Crits are great for him but could be possibly a bit too powerful. But at the same time, someone has to run into your smashes or get Snooze'd to really die to one at an unrealistic percent.

I dunno, just seems like a big overreaction to me.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Right now, Hero writes off for me as a mid tier character.

He seems to struggle a lot in quite a bit of the common matchups in the game (especially rushdowns and zoners), due to his glaring weaknesses. While he may cause some issues in the face of low-level play (and maybe mid-level, but not as much) due to the pure jank of his spells, I don't really see it do much in high level play at all.

Even now, more and more counterplay and loopholes are found against some of the Hero's best spells. Half of his strongest spells (like Thwack and Snooze) gets canceled out pretty easily by shields while not doing that much shield damage. Magic Burst, although it is a strong overall tool when ledgetrapping, is risky as hitting him out of it still wastes all of his MP and certain characters can stall offstage long enough until the move ends.

Still, his absurd KO power, ridiculous damage output, and great edgeguarding with his spells sort of prevents him from being low tier imo in the current moment, but I am still rather cautious about how good he truly is. His current very polarizing viewpoints (some people think he is top tier, maybe even broken; while others think that he is a mediocre-at-best character) kind of reflects the nature of his moveset.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Btw, where do you guys think the big winners of the patch (namely Mewtwo and Ridley) are after the buffs? Do you think they moved to a noticeably higher tier, or do you think they are about the same or only slightly higher than before?

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Aside: I just want to push back on the retrospective consensus that Brawl Metaknight was blah blah blah, and acknowledge that there are plenty of (non-MK) Brawl players like myself who believed (and still believe) the idea of a MK ban to be utterly ridiculous.

In fact, we were the majority, which is why the feeble ban attempts never worked. What, you think *M2K* manipulated the community with charisma and deft political maneuvering?

I don't bring this up to resurrect a meaningless debate on a dead game, but The Legend of Brawl MK has become an increasingly inaccurate folk lore, especially as it gets repeated by folks who weren't even around in that era. (And now the same thing is happening to Bayo.) Chances are allusions to Brawl MK do not help whatever point about Ultimate you are trying to make.

The real lesson from Brawl MK is the cost of bad stage policy and stage apathy. Casually saying "let's just go to smashville" had costs and consequences, as will playing every game on hazardless PS2.

I'll be a little redundant with Thinkaman's post, but I wanted to take this as an example against phrasing like "we all know that MK should have been banned" or "the majority of competitive players believe this to be a problem". Whenever I see that kind phrasing saying something I disagree with is some kind of consensus I think, "who tf elected you to represent everyone?". Obviously, feel free to speak for yourself, but don't pretend to be the voice of a diverse community.

 

[Rizen]

Aside: I just want to push back on the retrospective consensus that Brawl Metaknight was blah blah blah, and acknowledge that there are plenty of (non-MK) Brawl players like myself who believed (and still believe) the idea of a MK ban to be utterly ridiculous.

In fact, we were the majority, which is why the feeble ban attempts never worked. What, you think *M2K* manipulated the community with charisma and deft political maneuvering?

I don't bring this up to resurrect a meaningless debate on a dead game, but The Legend of Brawl MK has become an increasingly inaccurate folk lore, especially as it gets repeated by folks who weren't even around in that era. (And now the same thing is happening to Bayo.) Chances are allusions to Brawl MK do not help whatever point about Ultimate you are trying to make.

The real lesson from Brawl MK is the cost of bad stage policy and stage apathy. Casually saying "let's just go to smashville" had costs and consequences, as will playing every game on hazardless PS2.

How do you know you were the majority? Was it ever put to a vote?

The issue was that it's hard to change the status quo; too many players were MK mains and would have been put off by removing him. Banning MK was the metric system of smash.

_______________________
On the topic of hero: he's probably upper mid tier. Hero has slow frame data, several poor hit boxes on his quicker moves, and poor mobility. This is to balance out having OP spells.

Like I said Frizz is the line of spells to watch out for. They're unique in that you can store a charge. Kafrizz is huge and can kill at 70% which makes it deadly for landing traps or punishing disadvantage in general. Easily Hero's best moves.

Zap can't be stored and is overrated. Kazap (these sound like something from Spaceman Spiff comics) takes 50 frames and shouldn't be hitting in 1vs1s even as a ledge trap. The lower charges of zap will be what's used.

Woosh is a good recovery and has applications in doubles by trapping the opponent in place so the partner can hit with an aerial. It's f7 OoS, which is decent.

Down B is too laggy to connect with opponents who watch for it most of the time. It takes 19f before a chosen spell can begin, plus the time taken to choose it and additional startup frames. The main thing I see it doing is buffing Hero after launching opponents or him standing by the ledge hoping for magic burst.
Hero can fish for buffs on platforms like Kalos and TnC. These will probably be his best stages in several MUs.

The reason why Hero isn't ranked lower is he can get lucky and kill you at 30% or even 0% in 2 cases (sleep>charged crit Fsmash and thwack). A good read from Hero and Fsmash kills much earlier than Ganon's with a crit. Buffs improve him even further.
He's more likely to hit with downBs in doubles and has a good amount of powerful spells which can pop up.

 

[SwagGuy99]

He's more likely to hit with downBs in doubles and has a good amount of powerful spells which can pop up.

Yeah, Hero in doubles is going to be a lot better than in 1v1s, especially if he is teamed with a character who is good at keeping the opponents away from Hero while he chooses his down-b.

Hero + a character with good disjoints or a really good projectile game () is actually much scarier IMO than Hero in Singles.

 

[Myollnir]

I'll stray away from the Hero topic to talk about another character who keeps getting relevant buffs and I'm not exactly sure why him over lower characters.

4.0 was no exception for him, I'm obviously talking about .

What do you guys think of Mewtwo in the current metagame? Why do you think this character isn't seen often? What made him drop from his top tier status in Smash4?

Surely, the airdodge changes nerfed him a lot, and like most other fighters, he lost some combos & confirms during the transition to Ultimate.

But I feel like he's still really solid. His neutral is kinda amazing with one of the best projectiles in the game, good buttons and a good reflector (although not the best, it's probably the most versatile). His grab game isn't stellar until kill %, but it's more than fine. His start-ups aren't amazing, but definitely not slow enough to be a big weakness. Not the best OoS either, but both N-air/F-air and footstool are really good options he has.

He still has an above average combo game, he's probably top5 at killing (his D-Smash is ridiculous now, reminds me of U-Smash, but horizontal), he has decent edgeguarding and amazing ledgetrapping. His juggle isn't the best, though, but it's still fine.

Contrary to popular belief, he's not particularly floaty (sharing 's fallspeeds), he has high mobility in the air and good hitboxes, along with a teleport, which makes landing not as hard as people think. His big hurtbox is still pretty tough to manoeuver, and he has a subpar ledgegame, so going there isn't really recommanded, although his ledge roll got buffed a few patches ago and it's only really abused by the characters who likes to shield (fishing for an u-smash/b-air usually) at the ledge, which Mewtwo has an answer to with Confusion. His get up attack also has one of the best ranges in the game.

However, he is insanely weak to certain combos and strings, but I feel like those aren't as hardcore as they were in S4. Still his major weakness. His weight remains a weakness, but please remember that he weighs as much as now (tied for 5th worst with 77). And when you have such a good neutral, it is something you can manage.

Am I missing something there? definitely has potential to reach high tier to me.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I'll stray away from the Hero topic to talk about another character who keeps getting relevant buffs and I'm not exactly sure why him over lower characters.

4.0 was no exception for him, I'm obviously talking about .

What do you guys think of Mewtwo in the current metagame? Why do you think this character isn't seen often? What made him drop from his top tier status in Smash4?

Surely, the airdodge changes nerfed him a lot, and like most other fighters, he lost some combos & confirms during the transition to Ultimate.

But I feel like he's still really solid. His neutral is kinda amazing with one of the best projectiles in the game, good buttons and a good reflector (although not the best, it's probably the most versatile). His grab game isn't stellar until kill %, but it's more than fine. His start-ups aren't amazing, but definitely not slow enough to be a big weakness. Not the best OoS either, but both N-air/F-air and footstool are really good options he has.

He still has an above average combo game, he's probably top5 at killing (his D-Smash is ridiculous now, reminds me of U-Smash, but horizontal), he has decent edgeguarding and amazing ledgetrapping. His juggle isn't the best, though, but it's still fine.

Contrary to popular belief, he's not particularly floaty (sharing 's fallspeeds), he has high mobility in the air and good hitboxes, along with a teleport, which makes landing not as hard as people think. His big hurtbox is still pretty tough to manoeuver, and he has a subpar ledgegame, so going there isn't really recommanded, although his ledge roll got buffed a few patches ago and it's only really abused by the characters who likes to shield (fishing for an u-smash/b-air usually) at the ledge, which Mewtwo has an answer to with Confusion. His get up attack also has one of the best ranges in the game.

However, he is insanely weak to certain combos and strings, but I feel like those aren't as hardcore as they were in S4. Still his major weakness. His weight remains a weakness, but please remember that he weighs as much as now (tied for 5th worst with 77). And when you have such a good neutral, it is something you can manage.

Am I missing something there? definitely has potential to reach high tier to me.

A lot of it comes from the changes to airdodges. His airdodge in SSB4 was basically a get-out-of-jail free card due to how good it was. That airdodge was also attached to a character with a big body and light weight, which is beneficial to Mewtwo.

In Ultimate, not only that they remove this airdodge, but his directional airdodge is one of worst in the game, which makes him easier to juggle, which somewhat exliberates his status of being big but light (despite his weight increasing from SSB4). Down tilt's tipper being worse for combos doesn't help too much either.

I can definitely see Mewtwo being a really solid character right now, especially after 3.0.0's and 4.0.0's buffs to him (SDX managed to get A51 with pre-patch Mewtwo, despite retiring after Frostbite). However, his difficulty landing and the overall increased power of the cast is the main two reasons (and probably only reasons at this point considering the numerous things he gained in the transition) why he is not as good as in SSB4. If his weight increased further and/or buffed his airdodge, then he has the potential to meet or even exceed his SSB4 incarnation imo.

 

[Rizen]

's hard to place because he keeps getting buffs yet is uncommon. The meta shifts so much from patches that it's hard to judge several characters like . I agree that Mewtwo shouldn't have been first on the buff list when there's characters like . Everything's moving toward the middle; low characters are getting buffs and top tiers get nerfed. This also makes it hard to judge the power creep on characters who are largely ignored like the Links. Are the changes overall good because weaker top tiers or bad because lower characters creep up on them? It really depends on who ends up common in tournaments.

 

[Myollnir]

I'd disagree on the meta shift, I'd argue that the meta has been pretty much stagnant since the release of the game. No nerf except (and ironically ) has been significant enough to change anything (one could argue about but that was a bug fix).
And on the other hand, there are very few characters who received a relevant buff (, possibly ). None of these buffs had enough of an impact to make one these characters jump more than one tier, and none of them is top tier.

If Nintendo cared about actual balancing, considering they only update the game every 2 months or so, minor patches like this definitely wouldn't be the move.

 

[The_Bookworm]

No nerf except (and ironically ) has been significant enough to change anything (one could argue about but that was a bug fix).

What do you mean about Dedede's nerf? Dedede's Gordo hitbox reduction wasn't really that big of a change. It only really affects him at online play where Gordos are harder to deal with. It didn't really affect Dedede's results when the small Gordo nerfs occurred.

 

[Myollnir]

What do you mean about Dedede's nerf? Dedede's Gordo hitbox reduction wasn't really that big of a change. It only really affects him at online play where Gordos are harder to deal with. It didn't really affect Dedede's results when the small Gordo nerfs occurred.

I think 's design is really flawed and that they made him rely exclusively on gordos. The hitbox nerf was definitely huge, this is the kind of character that enjoys low levels of gameplay (everyone during early meta) and then starts to fall off as people get better at dealing with gordos (and projectiles in general), the nerf really accelerated that, if you didn't play a character with big range it was painfully obnoxious to deal with gordos (moreso on wifi, but that was still true for offline play).

That change definitely made him go from scary to a non-existent threat. Really takes an insanely skilled player to make him work at top level, and he's not even that deadly at lower levels of play anymore.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I think 's design is really flawed and that they made him rely exclusively on gordos. The hitbox nerf was definitely huge, this is the kind of character that enjoys low levels of gameplay (everyone during early meta) and then starts to fall off as people get better at dealing with gordos (and projectiles in general), the nerf really accelerated that, if you didn't play a character with big range it was painfully obnoxious to deal with gordos (moreso on wifi, but that was still true for offline play).

That change definitely made him go from scary to a non-existent threat. Really takes an insanely skilled player to make him work at top level, and he's not even that deadly at lower levels of play anymore.

There are plenty of Dedede mains doing well at lower, even mid levels of play. zaki continues to do pretty well in Japan since the beginning and that hasn't changed much at all today. Although Big D shifting his focus to Ice Climbers did hurt the character a little bit, he focused on ICs due to him simply liking ICs design/potential better (plus he co-mained them in Brawl) rather than Dedede getting a few nerfs.

The hitbox nerf was specifically 4.8u -> 3.8u (spikes) and 4.5u -> 4u (body). It is still a pretty generous hitbox (almost 3x as large than it was in pre-patch SSB4).

 

[Emblem Lord]

I'd disagree on the meta shift, I'd argue that the meta has been pretty much stagnant since the release of the game. No nerf except (and ironically ) has been significant enough to change anything (one could argue about but that was a bug fix).
And on the other hand, there are very few characters who received a relevant buff (, possibly ). None of these buffs had enough of an impact to make one these characters jump more than one tier, and none of them is top tier.

If Nintendo cared about actual balancing, considering they only update the game every 2 months or so, minor patches like this definitely wouldn't be the move.

Oh goodness.

"Only" update the game every two months or so.

How often would you want massive meta shifting patches? Every other week?

 

[Myollnir]

Oh goodness.

"Only" update the game every two months or so.

How often would you want massive meta shifting patches? Every other week?

If you're going to make such small changes, one every other week wouldn't be as bad as you make it look. They're making some progress, but it is very slow and the game would probably be more enjoyable by now if there were more updates. No update shifted the meta as of now. Even the projectile one didn't have a huge impact (even though it had one).

I'd rather have them updating ~every other month like they do, but actually make noticeable changes.

As for , I do not claim that the gordo nerf killed the character, he was already not that good to begin with, it just made him less likely to win due to match-up inexperience (and straight up nerfed his match-ups with the bad characters who couldn't handle gordos well like ). I however think the character is not suited for higher levels of play (we're still relatively early into the game, 8 months isn't that long), and aside from Zaki, I don't see any player who could do great in a big tournament with him. But you never know in smash.

Edit for below : I believe Snake's U-Throw interacts differently with grenades since the patch.

 

[The_Bookworm]

We have yet another stealth change.

When they gave Joker's Makarakarn a cap on what projectile strength he can reflect, they also marginally adjusted the move's detection radius.

There was a problem fetching the tweet

It is barely anything, but it is something to note.

Edit: Another stealth change is that Snake's up throw collateral hitbox can now be blocked. This change is completely irrelevant and pretty much everyone is not going to notice that, but it is another stealth change.

 

[Gérard Majax]

M2's main issue was that his advantage/neutral weren't good enough to compensate for how awful his disadvantage was.

He had good range but without disjoints, good speed but a poor short hop game, combos last for 3 moves at best, and no dumb spammable kill confirm. His saving grace was shadowball (which is just gross, especially on a character with top 10 run speed) and his good offstage/ledge game.
Also the worst thing ever about him was pressing his advantage. Even if you won neutral you just had to keep guessing again and again, because well, no disjoints and any trade is a lost trade because his weight sucks.

So in the end, you were just playing neutral with relatively fair tools (except shadow ball), for a reward which was alright but not stellar, and if you lose neutral twice you lose your stock. Combo food, light, can't land, awful ledge game, terrible double jump, recovery is the worst of the 3 teleports. He had some good matchups, but there are other where he just couldn't do anything but spam shadow ball, because anything else had a terrible risk/reward (you can see old SDX tweets for this, he dropped the character because playing campy was the only way to survive in a lot of mu, and it wasn't even that good).


Then patch happened. Better reward on some moves, slightly better weight, ledgegame is no longer atrocious. Its good I guess, but still not really worth playing the character when you still have to guess everything in a game where other glass canons (pre patch pichu xd) just pressed buttons mindlessly and got 40%+ confirmed out of anything.

Then finally, 4.0. I unfortunately don't have much data to show because well no one played m2 and the patch has been out for like 3 days, so it will be mostly personal impression, from a guy who played m2 at release and finally dropped him after 1/2 months just because he was awful.

He feels like a good character. No more "hey he is above him but if I uair in his dair I lose my advantage and probably my stock haha fun game". Now it's just "uair". Coupled with the ****ton of buffs he got on all of his moves over the patches (dsmash disco party anyone?), and the fact that side b is now a really good move because it's not frame 56684 (you hit a shield with it, the opponent gets to play "pick the right option or get destroyed : the game". Also it actually reflects stuff instead of being too late everytime!), well you got a scary character. Get 3/4 neutral wins (jab deals 25% lmao), then get kills with his (now) really good smashes, ball, edgegard, ledgetrap, or side b "pick a card".

I still have to try him more, especially in mu which I felt were atrocious before (basically anyone who killed him in 3 hits and had some tools against shadow ball abuse, zelda in particular felt awful because she killed you at 60 for any mistake). Both zss and ken felt alright at least. But I wouldn't be surprised if he ended up in high tier, just because he now deserves his title of "glass canon", instead of "glass why-are-you-playing-this-instead-of-any-character-with-better-confirms". I'm looking forward to see him in competition (just seeing him would be good lol, he was just invisible in tournaments).

 

[blackghost]

I'd disagree on the meta shift, I'd argue that the meta has been pretty much stagnant since the release of the game. No nerf except (and ironically ) has been significant enough to change anything (one could argue about but that was a bug fix).
And on the other hand, there are very few characters who received a relevant buff (, possibly ). None of these buffs had enough of an impact to make one these characters jump more than one tier, and none of them is top tier.

ultimate has a stagant meta? are you watching the same game? since launch we have had the following:
snake sucks, snake is good, snake is god.
pichu rose and fell based on nerfs and is now considered too low by some people
pikachu rose and is sometimes questioned as claims made by players like Esam aren't proven by other players consistently
joker was a shake in the meta.
zss is a giant shake in the meta right now.
superheavy players are still pushing for bowser to get repect
k rool fell off the planet post release
and much more.
the state of ultimate metagame is great no overbearing character and many (not most) have a decent shot to win. Nintendo doesnt need to do any major patches cetain playerbases still want fixes, trust me i'm in one of them, but theres no immediate character that needs fixing except maybe sonic.

next regarding ken and ryu buffs. i know they aren't common they never will be they are high execution characters requiring inputs and matchup knowledge to perform with and can be hurt if the player has no idea how to skillfully ban stages. all that being said they are both good characters. they are both likely high tier prepatch they were not. ken Shoryuken connects properly (most of the time) and ryu had his zoning game buffed. ken and ryu are the only characters in the game with extensive combos and shield break setups based entirely on grounded moves and pressure.

ask someone that plays them for a better analysis but from what I've seen from a player like N post-patch is very supportive that they are elite characters.

 

[Myollnir]

ultimate has a stagant meta? are you watching the same game? since launch we have had the following:
snake sucks, snake is good, snake is god.
pichu rose and fell based on nerfs and is now considered too low by some people
pikachu rose and is sometimes questioned as claims made by players like Esam aren't proven by other players consistently
joker was a shake in the meta.
zss is a giant shake in the meta right now.
superheavy players are still pushing for bowser to get repect
k rool fell off the planet post release
and much more.
the state of ultimate metagame is great no overbearing character and many (not most) have a decent shot to win. Nintendo doesnt need to do any major patches cetain playerbases still want fixes, trust me i'm in one of them, but theres no immediate character that needs fixing except maybe sonic.

next regarding ken and ryu buffs. i know they aren't common they never will be they are high execution characters requiring inputs and matchup knowledge to perform with and can be hurt if the player has no idea how to skillfully ban stages. all that being said they are both good characters. they are both likely high tier prepatch they were not. ken Shoryuken connects properly (most of the time) and ryu had his zoning game buffed. ken and ryu are the only characters in the game with extensive combos and shield break setups based entirely on grounded moves and pressure.

ask someone that plays them for a better analysis but from what I've seen from a player like N post-patch is very supportive that they are elite characters.

never sucked, some people just put too much importance on some top players' opinions.
was mentioned, and yeah he fell off due to nerfs.
was overshadowed by Pichu so it's the same problem.
did take some time to be considered a threat, I'll give you that.
Same goes for , although some mod/admin here (I think Shaya) warned us that she was super duper good when her only results were like Choco, and if you caught up on that, there was no surprise to see Marss eventually doing great.
People always had a relatively high opinion on, considering him the best heavyweight of the game, if I'm not mistaken. But I was personally surprised to see the character do so well, I really look forward to seeing if LeoN can keep up with how high he set the bar.
was ever only good on wifi, everyone knew it wasn't a good character lol...

The metagame is in a pretty good state (excellent for a smash game), but considering we had like 4-5 balance patches, the metagame really didn't change that much.