Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[meleebrawler]

I'm still catching up on reading this, but I am glad that the combo counter seems to be competent now. With the inclusion of hero, that may be giving a bit of a skewed perception of his combo game since now it's more "correct" for everyone.

Concerning Hero's recovery, the second version of his upB, swoosh I believe, has much more horizontal distance and also covers more of his body, up to his head. With projectiles, a fast up air, and the ability to alter the timing of his recovery due to charging, I think his recovery is overall at least average. Compared to other sword characters, I think that's a bit of a step up for most of them.

Other than zap, I think people are generally underrating his other uncharged projectiles. Woosh still deals an OK amount of damage for a good out of shield option that covers both sides. Frizz moves slowly, deals good damage for its frame data, and pops the opponent upwards.

Uncharged Zap seems to be Hero's main poke, one of the safest-on-shield moves he has, not a role you expect a special move to occupy. The move as a whole is not projectile based despite appearances, which has obvious no-reflect or absorb benefits and makes the medium version always safe to use against characters with those, though this also gives it a negative quirk in that if he trades with another hit, part of the attack animation gets cancelled, resulting in less damage.

 

[Untouch]

It's funny how many people are sleeping on kazapple, it feels insane when it comes to covering getup options.
Your only option here is to jump, but you can't jump over because of the thunder, it has i-frames so you can't attack, and the range is large enough that rolling or normal getup will get hit.
The only problem is that its slower than the normal getup, but you can just use kazap.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I must say. I did not expect a Smash rep from DQ. A JRPG series whose main title mostly to traditions of the genre, and a like the most beloved gaming series in Japan, to be the kookiest, nutty and utterly most random character in Smash history.

The Hero's moves and attributes are either terrible, or busted AF, there is no middleground with this character at all

 

[meleebrawler]

It's funny how many people are sleeping on kazapple, it feels insane when it comes to covering getup options.
Your only option here is to jump, but you can't jump over because of the thunder, it has i-frames so you can't attack, and the range is large enough that rolling or normal getup will get hit.

Eh... while Kazap can be useful in ledge scenarios, several things hold it back: massive MP cost, long mandatory charge time that can't be cancelled making it very telegraphed, the vertical bolt is frankly not very threatening unless you're close to Hero, and it's not very good on shield. Where it works best is actually trapping landings (if you can call out them moving towards you) and tech-chases, where it can work in conjunction with Zapple to cover multiple options.

For ledge scenarios, I notice the Woosh line putting in more work. Cheaper, more flexible with all versions doing the job, and safer due to launching you away from reprisal, especially with platforms around. In particular the Swoosh tornado has a downward trajectory that makes it very annoying against vertical recoveries, even causing stage spikes if you're lucky, and Kaswoosh gives just as much coverage as Kazap with less risk.

Ziodyne 21 But then, Dragon Quest kind of is a pretty goofy, at times self-aware series when you think about it. JRPGs are the kind of game where the wrong moves are liable to cause the most spectacular failures, after all.

 

[Minordeth]

Kazap is an unreal tech chase move.

Considering that Hero can put you into a tech situation early on, it seems like a fair amount of his actual ability in advantage can come from tech chase coverage and jab locks.

Both jab 1 and 2 lock, and locking someone becomes trivially easy with Acceleratl on board.

He can also use Fizz-cancel based movement with no MP, which helps him mix up an opponent trying to get in on him.

In tougher MUs, it seems like he needs to rely on Fizz and kazapple to keep opponents off him to get his buffs. If he can get them off stage, his ledge and edge guarding is pretty great.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I checked how the PkMn Trainer mains feel about the changes to the overall character.

Lets just say, joins the ranks of characters like Palutena, Ike, R.O.B., Ridley, and Yoshi in terms of having crazy neutral airs (probably not as good as the characters I mentioned, but still pretty dang good). The move's hitboxes last for a long time, and the decreased landing lag not only opens up quite a lot of combo potential, but it is somewhat tricky to punish especially if spaced.

 

[Kiligar]

Are we going to make a Competitive Character Impressions 4.0? This thread has gone on far through many patches after 2.0. Significant changes have occurred within this patch as well as the inclusion of Hero who has a lot of potential to further his meta.

 

[Thinkaman]

The Ivysaur changes are somewhat small. The up-b nerf is only a 80 -> 70 BKB decrease, and only on the sweetspot hitbox of the aerial version. The 2 frame slower Razor Leaf matters but has no bearing on her ability to confirm out of it. The dair nerf is only sweetspot size and making the soutsport aerial knockback match the (1/9th lower) grounded knockback.

Meanwhile, Charizard got a very noticeable nair improvement; both the SHAC use-case and true landing variants are better+safer. (and now comparable frame-wise) Nair is now -5 on shield in the best case, down from -8. (Huge!) You probably aren't Charizard often vs opponents at sub-50 percents, but if you are: nair now true-combos into jab for an extra 13% off your safest move.

On top of this, he got ~8% better knockback and damage on both sweet and sour f-smash, ~4% better knockback on f-tilt sweetspot, and a better f-throw. But it's really about that nair.

This looks, on paper, like a reasonable trade.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Are we going to make a Competitive Character Impressions 4.0? This thread has gone on far through many patches after 2.0.

It's been called 2.0 since the beginning of the thread, it's not based on patches.

I'm not sure if there ever was a 1.0 though, maybe for some previous game?

 

[Arthur97]

Okay, looking over some data, is the Heroes' dash attack just better than Link's?

 

[Laken64]

https://twitter.com/TheSorgon/status/1156530233648078848?s=20
A list of all of hero's moves on shield with oomph boost also accounted for.
His grounded moves look really unsafe, especially his smash attacks though with how powerful can be it makes complete sense. His aerials on the other hand are much safer (nair, fair)

 

[Rizen]

Okay, looking over some data, is the Heroes' dash attack just better than Link's?

They have some trade offs. Link's starts 1f sooner and is longer but hero's ends sooner and deals 1% more damage. If I had to chose the best I'd say Link's because it has more range. TBH neither are very good because how slow they are (f20 or 21).

Edit, just tested it. Link's DA can hit opponents on PS2's platforms. Hero's can't even hit them on BF's platforms.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

What does anyone think of the Hero's potential MU's

I think the Hero is really gonna have bad MU's vs high-mobility characters that can apply lots of pressure or are good at evading/baiting. The Hero seems like he needs some room to breathe to pull off most of his potential RNG Jank and he does not have the frame data really to keep such characters off him. Plus his disavantage seems pretty suspect barring getting some RNG down-b moves like Zoom.
are likely going to be pretty rough top-tier level MU's to say the least.

But the Hero may do well vs characters who generally play a spacing or zoning game. may be an.. interesting MU but I dont think its a winning one.

 

[Rizen]

What does anyone think of the Hero's potential MU's

I think the Hero is really gonna have bad MU's vs speedy characters that can apply lots of pressure or are good at evading/baiting. The Hero seems like he needs some room to breathe to pull off most of his potential RNG Jank and he does not have the frame data really to keep such characters off him. Plus his disavantage seems pretty suspect barring getting some RNG down-b moves like Zoom.
are likely going to be terrible top-tier level MU's to say the least.

But the Hero may do well vs characters who generally want to space or zone out. may be an interesting MU but likely not a winning one.

This is based on day 1 Hero so take it with a grain of salt:
seems to solidly beat Hero. He's faster in CQC, has blaster for mid range pressure plus much better air speed and reflector can turn Hero's laggy magic against him. Wolf also has the raw KO power to keep the MU from dragging on.
probably goes even. YL generally controls mid range much better than Hero and can play keep away fairly well. Hero's frame data is comparable to YL's and his sword is longer so YL can have some trouble when it's time to go in close for a kill (the story of his life). The issue is Hero potentially kills so much earlier and can bring jank into the MU. Bounce is annoying but Hero has trouble pinning YL down so it's not that bad.
slightly wins because his sword is longer than hero's so he can zone him with it. Link also has projectile pressure to keep hero from setting up.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

This is based on day 1 Hero so take it with a grain of salt:
seems to solidly beat Hero. He's faster in CQC, has blaster for mid range pressure plus much better air speed and reflector can turn Hero's laggy magic against him. Wolf also has the raw KO power to keep the MU from dragging on.
probably goes even. YL generally controls mid range much better than Hero and can play keep away fairly well. Hero's frame data is comparable to YL's and his sword is longer so YL can have some trouble when it's time to go in close for a kill (the story of his life). The issue is Hero potentially kills so much earlier and can bring jank into the MU. Bounce is annoying but Hero has trouble pinning YL down so it's not that bad.
slightly wins because his sword is longer than hero's so he can zone him with it. Link also has projectile pressure to keep hero from setting up.

I also guess how easy a character can get kills can factor into the Hero MU. The longer games go on, the more chances Hero will have to roll the RNG he want..and dont get me thinking about the insanity they are capable of with rage.
Hero may have some of the craziest comeback factors in the game albeit unreliable

 

[Gleam]

Been playing with Hero for a bit and you know, my first impression was of a very bad character with many flaws and a gimmick that wasn't going to do much for him in the long run but the more I play him, the more I'm not so sure about that. There are a few things that make me question how much this character is pushed competitively.

1.) Perhaps most of all, is just the insane damage output and knockback this character has. You can kill bullsh*ttingly early with Hero and it's not like, you have to use some 10 second long Special or Smash, no, one good Crit Smash attack or a full charged Neutral B will literally kill around 30-70%. Mind you, even Ganon has to get you up to around 60-70% before his F-Smash will kill you. Also Hero isn't as badly effected as say, Ganon for making a mistake meaning he is giving a huge chance for a reward for perhaps moderate risk.

2.) The possibilities of his specials (minus Down B which I'll get to later) Kazap is insanely fast, has huge distances and can kill early when charged while providing an AoE effect. Kafrizz can be charged up, shoots out insanely quickly and can kill insanely early too. Kaswoosh, while a bit manipulative, acts as a fine form of distance recovery and probably more so edge guarding tool

3.) Command Selection (Down-B)
Now my first thoughts on this was, what a garbage move. Why would I want to divert my attention from a fight to look at some list while my character is helpless. But I find that Down B provides a plethora of possibility. I find that it's best used when you're in an advantage state or you've created some distance between your opponent and yourself.

I find it best to quickly open up the option, check the first one and, unless it's something like "Kamikazee" I'll choose it regardless of where my opponent is. Because even if I miss, chances are I won't be punished. You have multiple options for status boosts such as "Accelerate, Oomph and Psyche Up"

Status Effects like "Snooze" which is pretty much Improved Sing.

You've got insane AoE super moves like Magic Burst.

Bounce which protects you from all projectile based moves.

And some moves like Sizzle, Kaboom, Kakcrackle Slash which are insanely fast and/or powerful as all heck. Kaboom, just as an example, has a suctioning effect. You can get someone offstage, use Kaboom and will pull them back regardless of their position. The amount of options you get through Down-B is kind of something and while you probably want to be careful with moves like Kakcrackle Slash which requires you to get up to your opponent. Other moves provides plenty of benefits without need of risk yourself.

I thought Hero might be bad and he does have noted flaws but I'm starting to question just how bad he actually is.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I thought Hero might be bad and he does have noted flaws but I'm starting to question just how bad he actually is.

I still think he's top tier, some of his tools are just so overtuned, I looked at his frame data and it's not that bad, slightly worse than Lucina's, bit better than Ike's overall I'd say. Hero is probably one of the hardest characters to master though since you need to be able to quickly adapt to your down-B, and RNG is a huge factor. Sometimes you'll get super early kills at 25% thanks to a lucky Magic Burst.

It'll probably take a while until we see his full potential though, if ever. I doubt many top players would want to main such an RNG-based character, but who knows, maybe Salem or Dabuz or someone will pick him up?

Anyone got to try Isabelle post-buff? How much better is she now?

 

[$.A.F.]

I still think he's top tier, some of his tools are just so overtuned, I looked at his frame data and it's not that bad, slightly worse than Lucina's, bit better than Ike's overall I'd say. Hero is probably one of the hardest characters to master though since you need to be able to quickly adapt to your down-B, and RNG is a huge factor. Sometimes you'll get super early kills at 25% thanks to a lucky Magic Burst.

It'll probably take a while until we see his full potential though, if ever. I doubt many top players would want to main such an RNG-based character, but who knows, maybe Salem or Dabuz or someone will pick him up?

Anyone got to try Isabelle post-buff? How much better is she now?

Yes he has busted tools but not consistently. And again down b is a horrible move in itself even if it leads to some very ridiculous moves. Hero has amazing strengths but due to his RNG element those aren’t even consistent. Otherwise he has one usable aerial above frame 10. Up air is 6 but it’s a horrible move and has no use in anywhere really. Nair is literally just worse Ike Nair even if it’s decent. Fair comes out literally more than twice as slow as Lucina and Dair has a worse hitbox and is far slower. His jab is trash sitting at frame 6 without killing. His tilts have somewhat slower frame data than lucina while retaining almost none of the actual use. That’s not good at all. His movement speed is overall around if not a little better than Ike but without retaining Ike’s great aerials, range, etc. Besides his specials his moves basically function as a worse version of another character’s moves which comes together to create mediocrity at best. His OoS game is average at best, his disadvantage is very questionable, he doesn’t really have an answer to rush down characters, and also doesn’t have any non RNG answer to zoning. And to even get that he’s gotta pull up the menu without being harassed and select his choice while simultaneously being lucky. Overall I definitely don’t want to make any extreme takes after 29 hours but I personally don’t think he’s top at all even if magic burst is the best move in smash

 

[KirbySquad101]

Out of all the characters that were buffed, 's the one that's scaring me the most; they (mostly) solve his problems with his gigantic hurtbox, but on top of that, they give him 's back throw....? Whyyyyyyy, he already has up throw as a kill option lol

Oh yeah, and down smash is pretty much only -8 frames on block now; in other words, they basically gave him 's forward smash.

WaDi mentioned in a tweet that he'll be trying him out in locals, so there's a big chance he might start to see some representation again.

 

[$.A.F.]

Out of all the characters that were buffed, 's the one that's scaring me the most; they (mostly) solve his problems with his gigantic hurtbox, but on top of that, they give him 's back throw....? Whyyyyyyy, he already has up throw as a kill option lol

Oh yeah, and down smash is pretty much only -8 frames on block now; in other words, they basically gave him 's forward smash.

WaDi mentioned in a tweet that he'll be trying him out in locals, so there's a big chance he might start to see some representation again.

Gosh that sounds amazing. I have been wrapped up with Plant Hero so far so I haven’t paid much attention to the teenage mutant ninja space cat. I honestly believe that this patch singlehandedly moved him up a tier or more. They fixed his biggest issue by quite a bit gave him a kill move that’s hard to punish and opened up his grab game to be even more deadly for killing. I know this take is semi hot but this is a high tier

 

[coolmancool]

I'm surprised nobody is talking about that : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVF-Bty2cZk

 

[NairWizard]

A lot of the RNG power will probably come down to 3 out of the 4 options in the menu (so in other words, one extra press at most to quick pick things)

if you use C stick you instantly pick one of the 4 options (up right left down), so all 4 are just single press


Edit: ignore this, it's wrong

 

[Myollnir]

if you use C stick you instantly pick one of the 4 options (up right left down), so all 4 are just single press

Huh? That's just wrong lol, I just tried with both tilt and smash stick.

Am I missing something?

 

[Adol Christin]

Huh? That's just wrong lol, I just tried with both tilt and smash stick.

Am I missing something?

Perhaps he meant the D-Pad. The Taunt buttons.
Haven't tried yet.

 

[Rizen]

Game 2 of this is a good example of what I was talking about with YL being a counterpick character. Spiffy loses game 1 as Wario, CPs YL and takes a commanding win game 2. Unfortunately game 3 he seems to get tilted and does really unfortunate things like goes for hard reads with upB and Fsmash, drops from the ledge and regrabs it and accidentally jumps and upBs nowhere near the opponent at the end.

Still game 2 at least is a good example of how YL can deal with Joker. YL's good at controlling mid range space and can wall Joker really well. It's hard to find examples of YL's MUs.

 

[Game7a1]

Perhaps he meant the D-Pad. The Taunt buttons.
Haven't tried yet.

D-Pad (as taunts) just navigates the menu just like the control stick; however, one could use the D-Pad to find the right spell while having the control stick ready for a spotdodge, roll, or just to DI.

 

[Nate1080]

D-Pad (as taunts) just navigates the menu just like the control stick; however, one could use the D-Pad to find the right spell while having the control stick ready for a spotdodge, roll, or just to DI.

Even better, have a jump button mapped to a trigger (in my case L) and just jump out of the way when possible.


Speaking of jump, you have to short hop almost everything as Hero for his aerials to be effective. C stick to attack and L as a jump button helps. Full hop aerials are too much of a liability for Hero in most situations I find.

Also short hop makes u-air useful. Still trash in the grand scheme of things, but better.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Flame Slash and Kacrackle Slash are deceptively larger than they might appear. It seems they can even reach below the ledge. I caught a Ryu with one of them when he attempted to recover to the ledge.

What does anyone think of the Hero's potential MU's

I think the Hero is really gonna have bad MU's vs high-mobility characters that can apply lots of pressure or are good at evading/baiting. The Hero seems like he needs some room to breathe to pull off most of his potential RNG Jank and he does not have the frame data really to keep such characters off him. Plus his disavantage seems pretty suspect barring getting some RNG down-b moves like Zoom.
are likely going to be pretty rough top-tier level MU's to say the least.

But the Hero may do well vs characters who generally play a spacing or zoning game. may be an.. interesting MU but I dont think its a winning one.

From what I've seen he loses to rushdown characters. I've only tested the Hero match up with a very few characters, and one of them was Joker. Hero seems to be at a disadvantage against characters who apply a lot of pressure against him and are constantly on his face. I'm not confident enough to give an accurate prediction on how some match ups might look like, but at the very least I'll say that Hero struggles against Joker.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Well, what Hero have as a zone-breaking tool?
Meaning what can he do to get in versus Olimar (who has Pikmin versus two of his specials), Snake, Robin, Zelda, Snake or Samus? Granted, not all of them are zoners but still pretty defensive in general.
I recall him having slow aerials and slow air speed, so an aerial approach isn't really viable, so how is he getting in?
If you play a zoner correctly, you'd corner such a character and he has a really hard time getting something like Accerelatle to work.

Just interested. I need to play against a Hero but I haven't the option to do so now. So I'm wondering how he's supposed to get in.

 

[blackghost]

I still cannot place hero on a tier list. But he loses to rushdoen so hard that its gonna be a rough time for him in high level play.
honestly i can see him as a scrub killer in lower levels of play rather than dominating a high level event.


Also credit to this thread for not acting a fool like some of these pro players and youtubers. Requesting bans and calling this character op is either clickbait (zero, shofu, ect) or an agenda.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I still cannot place hero on a tier list. But he loses to rushdoen so hard that its gonna be a rough time for him in high level play.
honestly i can see him as a scrub killer in lower levels of play rather than dominating a high level event.


Also credit to this thread for not acting a fool like some of these pro players and youtubers. Requesting bans and calling this character op is either clickbait (zero, shofu, ect) or an agenda.

Most of these people are miliking this "hero drama" the reality is that most of them doesnt really care about the situation but them clicks are money and relevancy(in leffen case), so the more people are talking about this "controversy" the better for them, what could possibly go wrong?

 

[Lacrimosa]

I still cannot place hero on a tier list. But he loses to rushdoen so hard that its gonna be a rough time for him in high level play.
honestly i can see him as a scrub killer in lower levels of play rather than dominating a high level event.


Also credit to this thread for not acting a fool like some of these pro players and youtubers. Requesting bans and calling this character op is either clickbait (zero, shofu, ect) or an agenda.

Actually, the reason isn't that he's broken as being SSSSS-Tier but because the amount of RNG seems unbearable.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Well, what Hero have as a zone-breaking tool?
Meaning what can he do to get in versus Olimar (who has Pikmin versus two of his specials), Snake, Robin, Zelda, Snake or Samus? Granted, not all of them are zoners but still pretty defensive in general.
I recall him having slow aerials and slow air speed, so an aerial approach isn't really viable, so how is he getting in?
If you play a zoner correctly, you'd corner such a character and he has a really hard time getting something like Accerelatle to work.

Just interested. I need to play against a Hero but I haven't the option to do so now. So I'm wondering how he's supposed to get in.

Against zoners, all the Hero can do is hope that Accelerate or Bounce appears in his down special. He has a quite a bit of trouble approaching them due to his mediocre frame data and poor air mobility. Most of his own projectiles doesn't really do too much to shields.

I can see this be a difficult matchup to deal with for him, unless he gets really lucky.

 

[blackghost]

Actually, the reason isn't that he's broken as being SSSSS-Tier but because the amount of RNG seems unbearable.

The more i watch im not even sure command list will see much use. His neutral b is good enough to not spin the rng wheel. Youd be better off charging it or setting up a ledge trap or edgegaurd than fishing in commmand list.

 

[Browny]

I'm going to drop this here as a historical reference I can go back to and say "I told you so!"

--

If Hero gets banned in tournaments, watch Nintendo sponsorships of grassroots tournaments evaporate in an instant. If Sakurai is offended enough, Nintendo might even revisit their ways of 2013 and ban tournament streaming like they tried to with EVO. No ones saying that some of his stuff isn't ridiculous and needs fixing, but such a rapid, negative response to something they spent months of time working on is probably going to piss them off a lot, and they have a history of exerting the highest level of pressure when it comes to who can and can't stream their games.

 

[Nabbitnator]

I do not think banning hero would cause all of that. Competitive is not the majority of the userbase after all.

 

[xzx]

Hero sucks and needs critical buffs. For once, he's really inconsistent: his Command Selection is random and a commitment leading to Hero being wide open. Second, his MP is a resource, so even if you do find the right spell, you still have to have enough MP for it. Third, his mobility is poor. Bad air speed, run speed and fall speed. He can't approach well and have difficulty handling approaches and landings.

His smash attacks are bad and slow, easily punishable. His aerials are also slow. His tilts are medicore at best.

Though, he hits hard, but with that comes great risk, huge commitment and dealing with being unsafe. His other specials are good at least, but they are kept in check by MP, so he doesn't have his best tools at hand all the time.

If I could redo the Command Selection then it would be that every spell is ordered, so you know where every one is on the lists. (For example, Boom is on Menu 2 Row 4.)

I'm sorry, but I don't see how he is a good character. He isn't viable, sadly. (But only time will tell though.) Please fix this character, best Sakurai.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Ah yes let’s talk about buffing (and nerfing/banning) a character that has just gotten past 24 hours since his release that literally no one knows how to use properly.

First impressions are one thing and being honest my first impressions of Hero are muddled and I don’t think he’s going to be that strong in the long run as of today, but let’s be reasonable. Can we see how the character actually develops over even just two weeks for you impatient folk before we try to make definitive statements on his viability?

 

[Nate1080]

The more i watch im not even sure command list will see much use. His neutral b is good enough to not spin the rng wheel. Youd be better off charging it or setting up a ledge trap or edgegaurd than fishing in commmand list.

Sparingly using the command list seems to be best, especially against rushdown characters. Using Bs to zone them out (I firmly believe Hero is a zoner rather than a normal sword), and then command when they’re off stage or respawing.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I'm seeing such polarizing impressions of this character. He's either really good or really bad lol.

I'm personally leaning former just because I think he has the biggest robbery potential (in multiple ways) of any character, even Wario and PT. Time will tell though and I'm excited to see where he ends up.