Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[williamsga555]

I think he has the biggest robbery potential (in multiple ways) of any character

100% this, yes. Hero has way more realistic chances to steal/clutch/rob a stock that you can never rest easy with a lead against him.
To be honest, it seems like a much more idealized version of what Lucario was aiming for: someone you can never quite count out, regardless of your lead, because the turnabout potential is so huge. The main difference is that Hero doesn't need to be behind to activate his numerous trump cards.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Something interesting just happened while I was playing. I'm not sure if this is well known by everybody but apparently Magic Burst can be canceled by the opponent if they hit Hero before the explosion happens. Here's a video I took if anyone wants to see a demonstration.

https://streamable.com/k8ha1

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Something interesting just happened while I was playing. I'm not sure if this is well known by everybody but apparently Magic Burst can be canceled by the opponent if they hit Hero before the explosion happens. Here's a video I took if anyone wants to see a demonstration.

https://streamable.com/k8ha1

All his spells work that way, they consume the MP then if you hit him before he can actually cast it they don’t come out unless he has some armor on it like with his fully charge side b. It makes using magic burst just a bit risky for Hero, getting stuffed and you’ve lost all your MP and means to recover.

 

[blackghost]

His tilts are medicore at best.
Inbox
Though, he hits hard, but with that comes great risk, huge commitment and dealing with being unsafe. His other specials are good at least, but they are kept in check by MP, so he doesn't have his best tools at hand all the time.

If I could redo the Command Selection then it would be that every spell is ordered, so you know where every one is on the lists. (For example, Boom is on Menu 2 Row 4.)

I'm sorry, but I don't see how he is a good character. He isn't viable, sadly. (But only time will tell though.) Please fix this character, best Sakurai.

im just going to focus on these points.

1. his tilts are not bad. bad is palutena grounded moves. hero has trample and projectile nullification on his ftilt and a serviceable dtilt. uptilt is a pretty good anti air.

2. Hero shouldnt run out of MP ever imo. if he is landing his he is fine. for example grab 2x pummel and a back throw is close to 25 mp i think. he gets 90 percent of the damage he des with non spells back as mp. if he isnt spamming spells he should be fine. if he misses magic burst thats on him. if he uses hocus pocus for whatever reason thats on him.

3. they clearly just didnt want to do that. im sure they couldve but they wanted him to feel like a mashup of all the DQ characters. its a smash flavor choice. all the third party characters have something like this form their games carry over.

4. i perosnally can't judge him yet. im looking for more evidence.

 

[NairWizard]

Huh? That's just wrong lol, I just tried with both tilt and smash stick.

Am I missing something?

I'm sorry, youre right. I tested it again. C-sticking only changes your directional facing, it doesn't pick a spell. I have no idea why I thought that.

 

[ElectricBlade]

His down b can be crazy but his neutral game with his fizzle and zap moves should not be slept on.

He is a neutral beast with those moves as well as a land trap monster.

His ftilt has trample property as well.

The disadvantage is BAD, which means he probably cannot go past high tier even if we find something crazy imo.

He will probably do fine vs zoners and footsie style gameplay.

I feel he will lose hard to rushdown.

I was wondering how you make the distinction between rushdown and footsies style play? Or do you mean footsie style play as looking for a whiff punish/walling you out with projectiles or large hitboxes.

I think retreating SHFF Zap will be a great tool for whiff punishing.

 

[ARISTOS]

I think Hero is OK

The top character of the current meta all have great, consistent pressure and good OOS, both of which Hero heavily lacks. At the top level I think this character will be pretty heavily exposed.

However, this character will be heavily controversial at mid-level play where many more mistakes are made, as Hero blows all those up with impunity. We're gonna see daylight robberies until the end of time and the playerbase will reeee no matter how many points he scores on OrionRank.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I still cannot place hero on a tier list. But he loses to rushdoen so hard that its gonna be a rough time for him in high level play.
honestly i can see him as a scrub killer in lower levels of play rather than dominating a high level event.


Also credit to this thread for not acting a fool like some of these pro players and youtubers. Requesting bans and calling this character op is either clickbait (zero, shofu, ect) or an agenda.

Meh.

They are trying to pay the bills.

Can't hate the hustle.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

Can someone explain to me why Lucina is better than Marth because "consistency" and yet Hero is broken because RNG?

I know I'm kinda preaching to th choir here, but Hero's RNG looks great only in Twitter clips. It will probably translate to only one cheap stock over the course of a set that he's likely to lose if jank is all he's got.

 

[Arthur97]

My unimportant take would be, they're potentially more inconsistent than Marth. Granted, they don't have a more consistent counterpart. Now, the questions are 1) Are their highs enough to counter the lows and 2) How good are they without down special at all?

 

[NotLiquid]

Can someone explain to me why Lucina is better than Marth because "consistency" and yet Hero is broken because RNG?

I know I'm kinda preaching to th choir here, but Hero's RNG looks great only in Twitter clips. It will probably translate to only one cheap stock over the course of a set that he's likely to lose if jank is all he's got.

Hero's RNG elements don't actually affect his game plan in neutral, so this is a false equivalence. Good players are only going to be rolling the slots if they are in safe neutral spots, or able to push advantage. His best options are still stuff like his neutral B and side B, which are all very consistent. Good players will only be going for the roll when it's safe, and will optimize the most devastating options to be employed in largely consequence free situations.

And as far as Smash attacks are concerned, if Hero hits you with a Smash attack, that's still an exchange the opponent ultimately loses. The RNG just determines how hard they lose it. You already don't want to get hit by any Smash attacks to begin with, this just adds another layer to the cake.

Comparatively, Marth's loss of perfect pivoting, his Dancing Blade being worse than Lucina, his sourspots being overall worse in this game, the sweetspots not being worthy tradeoffs - all of that stuff holds back his basic game plan and has way more to do with player vs player exchanges, but the most damning thing about the comparison is that Marth is still a pretty decent character who's just made obsolete by the presence of a better version of him.

If Hero had an equivalent that had none of the RNG, then this would probably be a better comparison. RNG and consistency aren't mutually exclusive concepts anyway, because it's very possible that you can be graced with consistent RNG.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Can someone explain to me why Lucina is better than Marth because "consistency" and yet Hero is broken because RNG?

Originally, "broken" didn't mean overpowered but rather "not working as it should". Anyway, it's easy enough to show how an inconsistent character could be overpowered:

Imagine that you have a character with a down-B that has a 1/4 chance of dealing 10% self-damage, 1/4 chance of healing 10%, 1/4 chance of doing nothing, and 1/4 chance of healing himself 50%. Fishing for down-B would likely be overpowered (assuming the rest of his kit is reasonably good) because the odds are stacked in his favor.

People's issue with Hero isn't (only) that he's overpowered though, but rather that luck plays too much of a role in the game. Most people who play competitive Smash don't want luck to be a major factor in deciding who wins and who loses.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Can someone explain to me why Lucina is better than Marth because "consistency" and yet Hero is broken because RNG?

I know I'm kinda preaching to th choir here, but Hero's RNG looks great only in Twitter clips. It will probably translate to only one cheap stock over the course of a set that he's likely to lose if jank is all he's got.

I mean there is a big difference between “I mis spaced and didn’t land the tipper Fsmash to get a stock at 40” and “I rolled Magic Burst while my opponent is off stage I will now get a free stock at 40” One has player vs player input, the other is literally a dice roll.

My unimportant take would be, they're potentially more inconsistent than Marth. Granted, they don't have a more consistent counterpart. Now, the questions are 1) Are their highs enough to counter the lows and 2) How good are they without down special at all?

I’m in the camp that only the buff spells and a few others are actually useful for Hero given his Menu’s limitations, the other ones are super situational (but excellent in that situation) I think Hero can get by perfectly fine with his B and Side B those moves are incredibly good. I can see his Side B carrying him in some matchups he needs a quick way to prevent his space from being encroached on.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Originally, "broken" didn't mean overpowered but rather "not working as it should". Anyway, it's easy enough to show how an inconsistent character could be overpowered:

Imagine that you have a character with a down-B that has a 1/4 chance of dealing 10% self-damage, 1/4 chance of healing 10%, 1/4 chance of doing nothing, and 1/4 chance of healing himself 50%. Fishing for down-B would likely be overpowered (assuming the rest of his kit is reasonably good) because the odds are stacked in his favor.

People's issue with Hero isn't (only) that he's overpowered though, but rather that luck plays too much of a role in the game. Most people who play competitive Smash don't want luck to be a major factor in deciding who wins and who loses.

Yeah, that's what I get as well when I read other people's thoughts on Twitter and I have to agree. Same reason why we ban stages: Luck can play a role but doesn't necessarily need to.
Now, Hero isn't a stage but a character so banning may seem a bit too extreme. That's why we have to see how his RNG plays into things. There are locals that already use him and Smash Con is the next big tournament with over 2,5k entrants for Ultimate. Guess if something outrageous happens there, a ban could come or nothing happens and that kinda "proves" that his RNG isn't gamechanging but just an annoying factor to deal with.

 

[blackghost]

here is a competent guide from izaw. goes over basics of the hero and mechanics

 

[Spinosaurus]

I think Hero is OK

The top character of the current meta all have great, consistent pressure and good OOS, both of which Hero heavily lacks. At the top level I think this character will be pretty heavily exposed.

However, this character will be heavily controversial at mid-level play where many more mistakes are made, as Hero blows all those up with impunity. We're gonna see daylight robberies until the end of time and the playerbase will reeee no matter how many points he scores on OrionRank.

Uncharged woosh is a very good OOS. I don't have exact numbers (I suspect it has fixed KB), but I know it's frame 7 and provided you move away from the opponent (guaranteed, since it always launches them behind you) it should always be safe on hit, and possibly on block if you land on a platform since it feels it has very little landing lag.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Latest PGR is out:
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-10-1

10. Light
9. VoiD
8. Nairo
7. Dabuz
(6. Ally )
5. Shuton
4.. Samsora
3. Marss
2. Tweek
1. MKLeo

Full PGR:

Spoiler

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-50-41
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-40-31
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-30-21
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-20-11
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-10-1
50. Captain L
49. Suarez
48. Fatality
47. T
46. Frozen
45. Nietono
44. Tsu
43. The Great Gonzales
42. Umeki
41. Scatt
40. Abadango
39. Goblin
38. Mr. E
37. Prodigy
36. Mr. R
35. LeoN
34. Yeti
33. Ryuga
32. Captain Zack
31. Dark Wizzy
30. Lea
29. Stroder
28. Puppeh
27. MuteAce
26. NAKAT
25. Sinji
24. WaDi
23. ProtoBanham
22. Salem
21. Wishes
20. Raito
19. Kameme
18. Rivers/Shoyo James
17. MVD
16. ESAM
15. Tea
14. Glutonny
13. Myran
12. Zackray
11. Cosmos
10. Light
9. VoiD
8. Nairo
7. Dabuz
(6. Ally )
5. Shuton
4.. Samsora
3. Marss
2. Tweek
1. MKLeo

 

[Rizen]

Also credit to this thread for not acting a fool like some of these pro players and youtubers. Requesting bans and calling this character op is either clickbait (zero, shofu, ect) or an agenda.

People need to stop using "clickbait" as a counter argument to pro players. It's not. If you want to argue against their points go for it but don't assume it's some ploy to get views. Pro players have opinions like everyone else.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Latest PGR is out:
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-10-1

10. Light
9. VoiD
8. Nairo
7. Dabuz
(6. Ally )
5. Shuton
4.. Samsora
3. Marss
2. Tweek
1. MKLeo

Full PGR:

Spoiler

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-50-41
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-40-31
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-30-21
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-20-11
https://www.redbull.com/us-en/pgru-spring-2019-10-1
50. Captain L
49. Suarez
48. Fatality
47. T
46. Frozen
45. Nietono
44. Tsu
43. The Great Gonzales
42. Umeki
41. Scatt
40. Abadango
39. Goblin
38. Mr. E
37. Prodigy
36. Mr. R
35. LeoN
34. Yeti
33. Ryuga
32. Captain Zack
31. Dark Wizzy
30. Lea
29. Stroder
28. Puppeh
27. MuteAce
26. NAKAT
25. Sinji
24. WaDi
23. ProtoBanham
22. Salem
21. Wishes
20. Raito
19. Kameme
18. Rivers/Shoyo James
17. MVD
16. ESAM
15. Tea
14. Glutonny
13. Myran
12. Zackray
11. Cosmos
10. Light
9. VoiD
8. Nairo
7. Dabuz
(6. Ally )
5. Shuton
4.. Samsora
3. Marss
2. Tweek
1. MKLeo

Personally surprised that Light made it top 10 over players like Cosmos and Glutonny, considering that his results kind of grew a little inconsistent towards the end, but kudos to him.

The top 10 of the PGRU was pretty much exactly as expected. Makes me intrigued on what is about to go down at EVO 2019. It right now the largest Smash Bros event of all time, so seeing talented players fall earlier than expected is going to be inevitable.

 

[Bladeviper]

I do have to ask how many people have actually played other fighting games when they say rng has no place in fighting games as rng has been around in this genre for at least 2 decades, with an early example of damage ranges in sf2. Hero is fine imho with his rng

 

[Emblem Lord]

As an old man, I will be the first to tell you that the rng present in SF2 is a disgrace and it never should have existed.

SF2 drops frames randomly for heaven's sake. That is why ST is not a link heavy game despite every character having high damage link combos. A 3 frame link will sometimes turn into a 1 frame with no indicator until you actually land the first hit of the combo.

 

[Bladeviper]

As an old man, I will be the first to tell you that the rng present in SF2 is a disgrace and it never should have existed.

SF2 drops frames randomly for heaven's sake. That is why ST is not a link heavy game despite every character having high damage link combos. A 3 frame link will sometimes turn into a 1 frame with no indicator until you actually land the first hit of the combo.

dropping frames is not great, i was just using sf2 as an example. its not the only fighting game to use rng, and hero wont be the last character in a fighting game to use it

 

[Nah]

I'm pretty sure that people aren't taking issue with the fact that there's RNG at all, just that the potential degree of the RNG in this new character might be too much (for a genre that arguably should have as little RNG as possible).

 

[Bladeviper]

I'm pretty sure that people aren't taking issue with the fact that there's RNG at all, just that the potential degree of the RNG in this new character might be too much (for a genre that arguably should have as little RNG as possible).

ive seen plenty of people complaining that any rng is too much, and like i said this hardly the first or the last, GG has a character that I could argue is worse in terms of rng since you dont get to see the item he is gonna use ahead of time and a crit is just like the damage range for sf2

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'm pretty sure that people aren't taking issue with the fact that there's RNG at all, just that the potential degree of the RNG in this new character might be too much (for a genre that arguably should have as little RNG as possible).

Y'all are going to hate me for this, but this is the part where I remind everyone that Smash is a party game first and a fighting game second.

RNG is a core part of the party game genre.

 

[Tri Knight]

Screw his RNG, what I care about is the incredible Neutral and Side Specials. 37% off a full charged Frizz that charges and comes out fairly fast AND kills pretty freaking early is pure destruction. Or his side-b? Super armor and kills stupid early on full charge? Again, pure destruction.

His frame data isn't that bad either. He's got pretty good range on his sword and good coverage with his aerials too. Even his up-air is a decent juggler with how fast it is and has like zero end lag off a short hop. I'm also a Link main though so most frame data looks good to me.

As for his down-b, I'm not a fan. I don't like inconsistency and I think over relying on it will be a Hero player's demise; especially later in the meta when people learn to how rush him. However, I personally think Down-B sounds better as a bag of tricks or goodies that should be pulled out when you have time to breathe and/or in a moment of desperation. But if I'm playing Hero I would likely not rely on the down-b too much. Good stuff if I get a sleep or a zoom or a buff but I couldn't see myself fishing for it. Takes too long and I just really don't like the inconsistency of it.

What I do like about him is his plethora of kill options. He has short, mid, and long range attacks and abilities that can kill at ganon levels of stupid early while ALSO l having a bag of tricks that can turn the tide as quick as a coin toss. He's definitely a high skill ceiling threat imo.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I'm pretty sure that people aren't taking issue with the fact that there's RNG at all, just that the potential degree of the RNG in this new character might be too much (for a genre that arguably should have as little RNG as possible).

This. No one is pushing for a Peach or Luigi ban, but Hero is a new level of RNG, never seen before in a Smash character.

ive seen plenty of people complaining that any rng is too much

I've literally seen no one say this. By this logic, Villager should be banned because of turnip RNG. So it's clearly a matter of scale, how bad is Hero's RNG and is it bad enough to warrant a ban?

I'd preferably discuss the issue in some other thread though.

 

[Wunderwaft]

I don't really have much of a problem with the RNG of Hero's Command List, if anything the randomness of the spells is what keeps Hero in check as he doesn't have access to the OP spells whenever he wants. The only questionable RNG in his toolkit are the random critical hits. Critical hits is where I think they went a bit too far with the character.

 

[Nah]

maybe should have prefaced my previous post with the fact that I do not have an opinion on DQ Hero at all, but oh well

ive seen plenty of people complaining that any rng is too much, and like i said this hardly the first or the last, GG has a character that I could argue is worse in terms of rng since you dont get to see the item he is gonna use ahead of time and a crit is just like the damage range for sf2

Just because there's other, potentially worse examples of RNG in fighting games doesn't mean that this instance or any of those instances are necessarily ok.

"Police brutality is a problem that needs to be fixed in the USA"
"Yeah but like it's worse in [insert country with an even bigger police problem], so stop complaining"

basically

Y'all are going to hate me for this, but this is the part where I remind everyone that Smash is a party game first and a fighting game second.

RNG is a core part of the party game genre.

It is a party game yes, but it is also not solely a party game either (at least in the case of this specific entry anyway), and we can recognize that the RNG is acceptable for one part of the game but not so much for the other.....probably.

 

[ZephyrZ]

This. No one is pushing for a Peach or Luigi ban, but Hero is a new level of RNG, never seen before in a Smash character.

People would be freaking out if Mr.G&W with judge was first revealed today instead. Being able to land a OHKO out of nowhere is pretty BS even if its a bad move to fish for.

I think part of this is that we're freaked out by gimmicky DLC characters after Smash 4 trauma.

 

[Arthur97]

Y'all are going to hate me for this, but this is the part where I remind everyone that Smash is a party game first and a fighting game second.

RNG is a core part of the party game genre.

Even casual players have their limits. Many will turn off healing items or S Flags. Some stages can't even find much of a home casually either. While, yes, it is a party game, there is such a thing as going too far with the party and not enough with the game.

 

[DelugeFGC]

My impression of the Hero still remains the same, however:

His aerials are all combo starters, you can get follow ups out of all of them. FAir and BAir both combo into things such as jab, grab, FTilt, DTilt and even NAir when landing with them at lower %'s. You can also get a grab out of a low % NAir, but it's very tight. NAir > Jab and NAir > FTilt are also potential low % combos. One of his best combo starters is falling UAir, you can usually get multiple follow up hits such as Falling UAir > UAir > NAir when landing this. I think his most beastly one is DAir. At like 15-20% it starts stage spiking, and up to around 50-60%+ (depends on fall speed) you can combo this directly into a number of things, like UTilt.. or USmash. If you get lucky and the USmash is a crit, DAir to USmash can potentially be a kill confirm at around 35%. That's insane. You can get follow ups out of DThrow and UThrow depending on %, and if you use Oomph at low % and use a combo such as FAir > Grab > DThrow > UAir > DJ NAir it can build a surprising amount of damage in not a lot of time. Also his NAir is decently fast (it's not FAST, no, but the frame data on it compared to his other aerials is much better) and he can use it in neutral to pretty good success in a lot of MU's.. so his frame data isn't even that huge of an issue.

His combo game is there, but it's nothing super crazy or technical.. however, due to the fact his normals hit pretty hard and that he does still have followups on top of spells that buff damage output, I'd say overall his ability to rack up damage with his normals is actually pretty decent. The main takeaway for me is that DAir > USmash can delete your stock VERY early and it's by no means difficult to land. One crit USmash and that's just it most of the time. This confirm doesn't stop working until like north of 60% either, perhaps longer on big bodied fast fallers. When you use the accelerate spell, you can actually extend his potential combo game a good ways, giving him follow ups at a much wider % and some more kill confirms.

His Up-Special is a pretty good edge guard, if you time it right the tornadoes are a big hazard for anyone trying to come back to the ledge, it eats linear recoveries such as Joker's tether alive. Since this recovery has such an immense gain as well, he can edge guard you from pretty deep and still make it back with just his aerials. I'd say his recovery isn't all that exploitable, too. If he gets zoom (a common spell, might I add) he can get back on stage literally for free, and even without it his Up-B has enough gain (QUICK gain, too, so your timing to punish has to be on point) to recover from basically the BZ. His recovery isn't perfect, but it's not as insanely exploitable as some people have said imo.

Side-B is insane. You can condition people with it pretty well, using it as a mid-range zoning tool to rack up damage, then suddenly faking them out and going for a full charge as they try to jump in to avoid it so they can hit you.. then poof their stock vanishes at like 50% as fully charged Side B hits like a nuke and the first hit stuns you. Neutral B is pretty good too, the uncharged version is slow moving as hell so you can use it to move in, and it has a pretty low MP cost. It's not the best zoning tool out there, no, but it can do it and more importantly it can cover options (such as Dash Ins or going into the Down B menu) pretty alright on the ground sometimes. The main takeaway is that fully charged, this move makes Samus' charge shot look like an angry slingshot pellet. It does nearly 40% full charge and can kill pretty early.. this move is insane and not enough people are giving it credit.

Down-B is.. well, Down-B. The ridiculous jank factor has already been pretty well covered on this move.


Overall, the Hero seems like a solid mid tier swordsman, but then you factor in his spells and his Down-B.. well to me personally it becomes clear that this character cannot be anything less than high tier.. perhaps top tier. He can play the game without needing to rely on his RNG, but it's always an option and by god can it be scary when he gets lucky. I love this character, he's a blast to play.

 

[$.A.F.]

maybe should have prefaced my previous post with the fact that I do not have an opinion on DQ Hero at all, but oh well


Just because there's other, potentially worse examples of RNG in fighting games doesn't mean that this instance or any of those instances are necessarily ok.

"Police brutality is a problem that needs to be fixed in the USA"
"Yeah but like it's worse in [insert country with an even bigger police problem], so stop complaining"

basically


It is a party game yes, but it is also not solely a party game either (at least in the case of this specific entry anyway), and we can recognize that the RNG is acceptable for one part of the game but not so much for the other.....probably.

Thing is it really isn’t negatively those games at all. All of the issues like ruining the meta game or winning everything due to luck etc aren’t happening in those games at all with worse offenders. Therefore it stands to reason that the same will probably not happen or at least we should see the effect

 

[TTTTTsd]

As an old man, I will be the first to tell you that the rng present in SF2 is a disgrace and it never should have existed.

SF2 drops frames randomly for heaven's sake. That is why ST is not a link heavy game despite every character having high damage link combos. A 3 frame link will sometimes turn into a 1 frame with no indicator until you actually land the first hit of the combo.

To clarify it does not drop, it skips frames. The actual inconsistency in this regard boils down to stages (which skip frames variably) but it does not eat inputs unless there is a super flash OR the game slows down during projectile hit.

Its actually programmed to skip frames at preset intervals. Now if you're talking about RNG you can probably make a dissertation about how bad its random damage and stun is, but the actual variance is exaggerated by most people. It's not truly "random" so much as it is a value that has a minimum and maximum number, and it rolls and does math based on damage tables per move. So while your Shoryuken might do a bit less, it will never do less than a specified minimum amount, and it will never do more than a maximum amount either.

There are other interactions too like the 50/50 coin flip on same frame throws, and etc. But I can't call it a disgrace because there was no precedent for anything before SF2. Its more a testament to how much RNG you can have if the basic game has a competitive enough structure under the hood, and SF2 proves it is very possible.

Just felt like clarifying.

 

[Anomika]

The buffs for seem pretty solid. Bair having the lowest landing lag out of his aerials is probably his biggest one. Now it's even better for spacing and it's even safer on shield with good spacing. Love it. Jab 1 having one less frame of start-up is good for close range, now being easier to defend from approaches better. Down smash's front hit having more knockback is really needed. It was too weak for a smash attack. While it still is rather weak, it's manageable. Up tilt's lower endlag means it's now easier to combo into his aerials, which is nice. Down aerial having a strong spike is also welcome even though I can't remember when was the last time I successfully managed to land a dair offstage (I'm not that great at edgeguarding though).

Pit and Dark Pit have improved but not by a lot. I do hope that they'll keep buffing (and fixing) them since I have fun using the illiterate boys (like Bowser being able to fall off the rising nair from from the ground even without the Tough Guy...).

 

[Rizen]

Y'all are going to hate me for this, but this is the part where I remind everyone that Smash is a party game first and a fighting game second.

RNG is a core part of the party game genre.

Not competitive smash. We ban like 95% of the game to reduce RNG as much as possible. Items gone, most stages gone, hazards gone. And @ the argument 'other fighting games have RNG' we're not playing them are we? If I wanted a competitive RNG game I'd play Pokémon. Banning things because they have RNG is nothing new to smash, in fact it's been the building blocks of the competitive scene.

I'm not saying we should ban hero (although doubles is a different story) but there's a legit argument to banning hero. There's a reason why we play on BF and not Midgar with hazards on.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I personally think that Smash players are far too quick to jump the gun on talk of bans, and even when something actually kind of problematic presents itself (like Brawl MK or Sm4sh Bayo) the community cannot universally agree on bans. Wobbling is still a controversy after almost 20 years of existence, and people can't unite on a position regarding it.

Smash players have also never seen a genuinely problematic character. Super Turbo Akuma and Alpha 3 Gill make MK and Bayo look like mid tiers.

I think arguments toward banning the Hero are silly (RNG in a character and RNG in a stage are two entirely different things.. banning based on RNG also is a slippery slope because then people are gonna start ******** about the other examples of character RNG because why pick favorites right?) and I also don't even see an actual ban coming to fruition, even in doubles.

This thread also probably isn't the ideal place to discuss why you think Leffen is right and The Hero should be banned.

 

[Rizen]

I personally think that Smash players are far too quick to jump the gun on talk of bans, and even when something actually kind of problematic presents itself (like Brawl MK or Sm4sh Bayo) the community cannot universally agree on bans. Wobbling is still a controversy after almost 20 years of existence, and people can't unite on a position regarding it.

Smash players have also never seen a genuinely problematic character. Super Turbo Akuma and Alpha 3 Gill make MK and Bayo look like mid tiers.

I think arguments toward banning the Hero are silly (RNG in a character and RNG in a stage are two entirely different things.. banning based on RNG also is a slippery slope because then people are gonna start ******** about the other examples of character RNG because why pick favorites right?) and I also don't even see an actual ban coming to fruition, even in doubles.

This thread also probably isn't the ideal place to discuss why you think Leffen is right and The Hero should be banned.

was a genuinely problematic character who should have been banned. I could write several pages on why he was much more OP than any other character but this isn't the place. Brawl should be a lesson to the community.

IIRC double was banned, at least in some areas.

The slippery slope argument is a fear tactic that holds no weight. We're talking about Hero and never said anything else.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

To put some prespective on this RNG debate. I can bring up two recent cases RNG getting clutch wins. it was Marss vs Elegant at LTC when Elegant got a misfire at just the right time to tske a stock, and Smash Factor 8 with Masiter vs MKLeo at the Smash Factor 8 runback .where Maister landed a 9 Judegment.

Those moments were a big factor on Elegant and Maister taking those games Marss and Leo still won the respective sets.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So apparently the ICs got a stealth nerf: Nana no longer has the ability to ledge trump.

To compensate, IC players found this:

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IC players' and the balance team's never-ending battle to "fix" or "break" this character continues.