Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Shaya

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#1
WOAH THE CCI IS BACK?

Well, yeah - it's much too early for anyone to modestly claim they have the highest level of insight and analysis for any character.
But one day, we'll evolve into this form~

While I use the word impressions, we still expect you to be insightful and analytical about what you state - just the onus on you for whether it's bona fide gospel for the game's life time will be a lot less heavy. We're here to have fun, the type of fun that involves learning and advancing our understanding of the game.

This is a general catch all to metagame and tournament discussion. The rules for previous threads have been extensive and will get ported over eventually.
BUT FOR STARTERS: Posting Tier Lists will require you pay the iron price - no matter how good you think it is, wrist slaps or more should be expected. Giving substantial justification to 'tier list' like discussions can be fine though, just be wary.

For a short time only, nostalgia trips and semi-meta (of the non-game variety) will likely not incur much wrath, but please try not to derail anything as you do it!
 
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Liberation

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#2
Please read the rules found here before posting!

Welcome to the Competitive Character Impressions Thread, otherwise known as the CCI. This is the main thread covering comparisons of characters in Ultimate at a competitive level - this includes both to specific characters and the roster as a whole.

You are recommended to use a combination of theory, results and some personal intuition, and this does indeed cover tier lists as well. However, there’s a few rules we’d like to put out:

1. Please follow the Smashboards Global Rules
Please read and follow the general rules of the site. This subforum is intended to be a high-grade discussion area on Smashboards, and infractions that are given in this forum will be much heavier than others.

2. Posts must adhere to the Topic and Substance Rules
Anyone more familiar with previous CCI threads are familiar with the Topic and Substance Rules. We allow a broad spread of interlocking topics, and require more rules to prevent things from going out of control. As a result, we have two categories of acceptable topics: Green Topics, and Yellow Topics. In addition to the 2 major acceptable topics of discussion, there is a more specific category of topics that will be met with infractions for spam and the like, known as Red Topics.

Green Topics are significant topics that are the crux of the thread. You are free to discuss these as much as desired.
  • Off/Online data on character usage or win percentage.
  • Character Matchup Exploration
    • Think about the Opinions, Interactions, Mindset theorem (OIM), including playstyle, known data and stage preferences.
  • Tournament results of characters or players.
  • Implications of rulesets, patches and trends on the metagame.
  • Comparisons of gameplay in different competitive environments or communities.
  • Initial posting of Smash news.
Yellow Topics, without context, can derail the thread, but if properly discussed (often relating to Green Topics) can be spoken about. It’s not really something that you’ll need to worry about; if you’re doing it correctly, it’s fairly organic.
  • Tier lists, including partial or complete ones.
    • See Section 4 for additional information.
  • Character Matchup listings and summarizations
  • More obvious pieces of character info that affect a matchup or a character's viability.
  • Vaccum style comparisons
  • Hypothetical changes or desires out of updates
  • Patch Notes (these will have their own threads)
  • Tournament hype/smalltalk
  • Rulesets
  • Other fighting games
  • General gameplay advice & guides
Red Topics are topics that will typically be met with infractions from the get-go and are not allowed.
  • Tier List-related meta discussion (the existence of tier lists, tier labels, etc)
  • Matchup Ratio-related meta discussion (what is a counter, how to express ratios, etc)
  • Game preference discussion
  • Ruleset preference discussion
  • Non-constructive criticism
  • Meta discussion on the Smashboards Rules or actions of moderators
  • Naming moves, advanced techniques or combos
3. Tier List posts must adhere to the guidelines outlined below

As much as we love (and hate) tier lists, they have a few additional stipulations. Despite their usefulness in describing opinions experience and data across the community, and provide historical snapshots of the meta, they can also spread like a virus and lead to some fairly low-grade discussion. As such, please follow the guidelines below in relation to Tier Lists:
  • Due to the early age of the game, posting a tier list is tantamount to penalties without extensive justification.
  • If a tier list has been posted on the current thread, please refrain from posting another one.
  • Please do not post lists without any sort of observations or conclusions.
  • Replies to tier lists are held to the same standards as the original poster, be it posting clarifications or other users asking questions.
Breaking these rules will likely result in infractions or temporary bans from this thread. If you have any questions, please contact Shaya Shaya and/or Liberation Liberation via PM.
 
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Emblem Lord

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#3
Super early metagame thoughts.

FE gang all look stong. Robin seems to be the "weakest", but even she has nutty stuff with Thoron killing at super low percents.

Watch out for that Hero King bloodline. Especially Chrom. That man is a terror on stage. Sorta free off stage, but hey good luck getting him there. He is not Little Mac.

Item drop during hitstun really screws up risk vs reward. Please everyone bombard Nintendo's twitter about this, I am so serious.

For those that don't know, if you are holding an item and get hit you can hit the Z button to drop it even in hitstun. You can even mash it. Nonsense.

Coincidentally I feel Belmonts are pretty strong right now partly because their playstyle let's them avoid this.
 

Nobie

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#4
Reports of Mega Man's demise may be greatly exaggerated.

Abadango and Kameme were streaming matches against each other, with Kameme as Mega.

While Mega Man might not have the best dash dance overall, and also lost the footstool combos, it looks like he's gained a lot in reliable kill tools.

Having a fair that kills with reasonably quick start-up and low landing lag (10 frames) is pretty huge. In Smash 4, Mega Man had to choose between facing away and threatening with bair or facing front and zoning with pellets. Now he doesn't have to choose, and combined with his characteristic excellent air mobility, it makes it difficult to consistently predict what Mega Man wants to do.

Speaking of bair, Kameme was landing first hit of bair into turnaround up-tilt reliably on Abadango's Inkling and K.Rool. if that's an actual kill setup, that's going to be wild.

I see a lot of top players down on Mega Man, but I think his movement is good enough to keep up with the best, and having that many projectiles that cover that many angles in a game where air dodging is at a premium is going to be a pretty big deal.

Last thing: Kameme himself thinks Mega Man is really strong: https://twitter.com/kameme8808/status/1071381379458318336?s=19
 

Pytonrage

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#5
Robin looks pretty good actually. Their early kill confirms like Arcfire-Arcfire-Levin BAir or FThrow-Thoron make him pretty frightening to fight against. Also Arcfire-Nosferatu is a true combo now at all percents, depending on your initial distance. He also has stuff like Arcthunder-DThrow-NAir for a whopping 42 or 47% (depening on the sword) and many other true combos that do insane amounts of damage.
 

Inking2003

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#6
Lately I've been seeing a few tier lists circulating around here and there, and most of them are placing characters in vastly different places. Some have one character in S tier, while another may have that same character in C or D tier. As we are many, we can have a more collective opinion on where certain characters should be placed within a tier list. Tier lists do help competitive players, and I didn't want this to get lost in the general forum, so I decided that I would be able to communicate with the pros here. I myself am not a pro, but I do wish to become one. Eventually. That's gonna take a while. ANYWAY, back on topic. Since I haven't seen anywhere else on this site where a tier list is being created, I decided to get it started.

I'll just state where I believe certain characters should be to begin with, and others may leave comments putting other characters in and make suggestion on where other character should be placed within the tier list. That being said, if someone should decide to move a character's position in the tier list or add a character to a certain tier, a reason would need to be given explaining why they believe that the character should be in that tier.

Let's first just place the characters in the tiers, and then we can decide what order they should be in. Here are my opinions on where a few characters should be placed in the tier list. Due to the fact that I am not a professional player, and that I have yet to unlock all the characters, I will only be listing a few characters. Please understand.

A Tier
- Donkey Kong
While I have seen the other tier lists place him in B or even C tier, I believe that he should be higher up. If any character, even the heavyweights, are above 50% damage, he is able to blast them off the screen. To do this, one simply needs to have a fully charged Neutral B ready. All that is needed after that is to get the opponent around 45%. Once they are around there, Side B them into the ground and unleash the fully charged Neutral B. It's a KO unless the opponent hits something on their flight off the screen, or if they are launched too far away from the edge of the stage.

- Sonic
Our blue blur of a hedgehog should either be in high A tier or low S tier. He's the fastest fighter in the game, and he can punish mistakes really easily and even get out of being punished due to that speed. Sonic is also able to rack up damage really quickly with his ability to come out of his Side B and Down B and start performing aerials.

B Tier
- King K. Rool
Though he is able to bring it on like Donkey Kong(see what I did there?), and his down throw and down tilt do the same thing as DK's Side B, he isn't able to KO opponents as easily as DK can. He does have the best recovery of all the heavies, though, which keeps him pretty high on the tier list. His Neutral B can also be very satisfying when you are able to hit the opponent twice with the same cannon ball.

- Ridley
He's a great fighter. The command grab, the sweet spot on the Down B, and his inclusion in the game is just a big thing as well. Though he has all those things, and is good at putting on the damage, the sweet spot is rarely going to hit in the heat of battle, and if the command grab is missed, it can be punished so easily. His Neutral B also isn't that great, and his recover can be messed up when in the heat of battle. The directional input on it makes it so that if your timing is off, you could go down instead of up. It's basically Fox, Falco, and Wolf's recover, but it takes longer and is easier to punish. He stays in B tier though because of the damage he can put on in the right scenario, and that he is difficult to send flying off the screen.

C Tier
- Pit
Not much really to say about Pit. He's the same he's always been. Not bad, but not good either. If used correctly, he can be good, but I mainly find myself not using any of the specials except for the Side B.

D Tier
- Kirby
Though I love my favorite pink puffball, he just isn't that good. I rarely use his Neutral B because I'm in the heat of battle and just don't have time to suck up the opponent. Even if I do suck them up and take their Neutral B, I rarely use that because most of the Neutral B's take time to charge up, which is something a light character doesn't have time to do. He always needs to be on the move so that he is less easy to hit, and he is usually KO'd before he even reaches 100%.

- Pichu
Why on EARTH have I seen this guy up in high B tier consistently?! Over half of his moves damage himself, and since he's a lightweight, each percentage point is precious! Unless there's something I've been missing about this worse clone of Pickachu, everyone else is way overestimating his potential. I mean, there are a few pros out there who play Pichu, but he is mainly avoided because, well, he sucks. He should either be in low D tier or somewhere in E or F tier, depending on how low we wanna go.

Well, that's my input. Please feel free to comment on where you believe certain characters should go and provide a reason why so that all may understand your reasoning. There might be a reason that Pichu is consistently in high B tier, but since the other tier lists do not provide a reason as to why, he seems misplaced big time. I hope our wide community can fill in a tier list that will stand the test of time and updates. Yelp, that's that! I hope this works.
 
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#7
YESSSSS. WE ARE BACK BABY! Been missing these discussion posys ever since I joined Smashboards in early 2018.

Super early metagame thoughts.

FE gang all look stong. Robin seems to be the "weakest", but even she has nutty stuff with Thoron killing at super low percents.

Watch out for that Hero King bloodline. Especially Chrom. That man is a terror on stage. Sorta free off stage, but hey good luck getting him there. He is not Little Mac.

Item drop during hitstun really screws up risk vs reward. Please everyone bombard Nintendo's twitter about this, I am so serious.

For those that don't know, if you are holding an item and get hit you can hit the Z button to drop it even in hitstun. You can even mash it. Nonsense.

Coincidentally I feel Belmonts are pretty strong right now partly because their playstyle let's them avoid this.
The FE Emblem gang are indeed looking like strong characters. I can also say the same for the LoZ gang as well (for once lol).
I don't think the Z-drop thing isn't going to affect that much, especially since there are limited characters that can utilize it.



I think for this thread, we should name each of the echo fighter pairs with custom name to describe both. Here is what I got:
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: - The Samus' (Can't really combine their names so that is what I got lol)
:ultpeach::ultdaisy: - Peasy (The other combination is Daisech, but it looks and sounds messy)
:ultmarth::ultlucina: - Marthcina (The custom name we have been using for this pair since the SSB4 days, so this is easy)
:ultroy::ultchrom: - Chroy (The other combination is Rom, but it doesn't roll off the tongue and it sounds to similar to the word 'rum')
:ultpit::ultdarkpit: - The Pits' (Can't really combine their names so that is what I got lol)
:ultryu::ultken: - Ryuken (Fun fact: if you remove the 'Sho' from Shoryuken, you get that custom name)
:ultsimon::ultrichter: - (Edit: Ignore what I say afterwards, and simply call them the Belmonts) Richmon ('Richter' as the suffix name doesn't fix well with 'Simon', so this is the best option)
 
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Shaya

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#8
The extensive list of kill set ups have been thoroughly stripped from Zero Suit.
Some of the big staples we know of like nair to fjk or up air boost kick ironically still remaining.

Hitbox sizes seem notably worse, feels almost impossible (it'll get better I'm sure) to play footsies with zero suits aerials and experiences of point blank jab oos whiffing people is quite demeaning
She's not necessarily neutered to low tier or anything of the like, and we now have a down tilt that can combo (but again, seems smaller hitboxes and definitely a lot less range) with good DI not really allowing follow ups, a forward air that hits on the rise (seems to be the only move she can actually use freely now ;\) and the boost kick fix is miracle fuel (but they halved it's horizontal range....).

They gave back air a more pronounced sour spot/hitbox on the thigh, so when not in spacing situations you won't get blindspotted so much, but they reduced the hitbox size at max range a lot edit: they did not reduce hitbox sizes on bair - difficulty is a result of the new c-stick/buffering system, dislike it a lot, hope itchanges and I believe also either changed the animation slightly to make them 'higher' during the action, making it considerably more difficult to space in neutral; weakening of her most functional (and arguably only) dynamic spacing tool from Smash4 is just insane. Similarly the same 'raising' has occurred with up air - which literally cannot hit missed tech grounded opponents at all (which it could against most chars in S4), back air barely can with near frame-perfect timing it seems, but this doesn't really flow.
Forward Air does a lot but it isn't a poke/spacing tool by design, and i'd like to be able to use more than just one single move over and over again in neutral.

Down Smash being unsafe on hit at a lot of % unless charged is quite ridiculous. It seems like juju magic whether paralyzer will give you anything either (landing with it still seems to provide a little less end lag? presuming because silent laser is still there). With a little bit of charge, on either, magic still occurs, but I'm not really vying with 25+ frame start up requirements for anything 'good' with the removal of the the faster but riskier (getting closer) mix ups taken away off aerials.

Still really fun to play, you weren't expecting to read that after the above, right?
It's not Smash4 release Marth, but I'm not seeing much that much potential to expand beyond\ her having really fantastic capabilities overall if she forces and reads your directional air dodge.
Will probably find match ups against big characters good still, as we will still have aerial variability against them and the likes of her side-b (which they added ko power to and an option for hitting upwards for combos, at the cost of more start up ;\) will naturally be reliable when they're in disadvantage mid air. But basically anyone capable of keeping on the ground with a strong anti air that isn't a heavyweight will have a generic wait and see (and shield) flow chart that will be inhibiting her (potentially even more so than smash4).

To be fair, she was a top tier character who could circumvent her weaknesses and really only had difficulty verses DLC - a lot of 'losses' were expected. If they patch up her down smash she will likely be in a good spot functionally.

Pivot cancel could be pretty good for her too - ftilt is a solid move and easy to do it with, and maybe that'll be a significant part of our glue into the future (it can get combos!).
 
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Rizen

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#9
I'm struggling to imagine Zelda being good, lol. IDK much about her or TL. Link and ganon seem to have too much going for them to be low tier, although it's all relative to the rest of the cast. Ganon got some major buffs in mobility. Link lost his combo/zoning bombs but got some buffs. IMO they're both held back by poor frame data and disadvantaged states and will end up somewhere in mid-tier.

Here's my thoughts on YL:
Edit, I unlocked YL and played vs lv9 Pac Man for a while. He's good but balanced by being light and weak. SHing in this game is hard; you have to barely tap jump. It looks like YL will primarily use Usmash from bomb hits, not Fair except at very high %s. At low %s Fsmash/Ftilt/DA work. Dthrow might combo but it's hard to tell vs CPUs. I think once I tighten my combos boomerang and arrows might go into Fair. ATM I'm having trouble getting the proper distance and attacks.
What I took away from YL is he has good tools but needs tight execution due to small attacks yet good mobility. You do something right and it works well but if you're a little off you wiff. Knowing what %s to use each followup will be important to learn.

He's great at racking up damage; I played lame and was able to kill Pac Man 3 times before he caught and took me down. Like Link, YL needs to be using his projectiles to create openings. His disadvantage state is very good with bombs to cover landings, boomerang for recoveries, a tether, extremely low landing lag and small size. This is all nice because he'll need to dish out a lot more damage than he takes.

His prior mentioned downsides are being a featherweight at 88, 16 units less than Link, and killing late. If I couldn't land a smash or Dair Pac lived to around 180, but my combos were probably off. It's easy to chip away at an opponent but not to land killing blows. Grab is slow but the range is decent, good for pivots. YL doesn't have the best frame data and will get out-buttoned up close. He'll have to work hard for his victories but has the tools and mobility to do it with decent frame data. I expect the type of character who gave Toon Link trouble, with good reach and mobility like Cloud, Mewtwo and Marth, might end up being his worst MUs.

All things considered, YL will be lower high tier or the top of mid tier at worst, imo.
 
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#10
I'm struggling to imagine Zelda being good, lol. IDK much about her or TL. Link and ganon seem to have too much going for them to be low tier, although it's all relative to the rest of the cast. Ganon got some major buffs in mobility. Link lost his combo/zoning bombs but got some buffs. IMO they're both held back by poor frame data and disadvantaged states and will end up somewhere in mid-tier.

Here's my thoughts on YL:
On Link, they literally made another Cloud in terms of air game: his aerials have heavily decreased landing lag and the frame 3 jumpsquat all greatly benefits his air game. He has a bigger sword, which combined with his greater mobility, allows him to throw out far reaching attacks both on the ground and on the air, which is also boosted by the dash canceling mechanic with his tilts. His new bombs are very good, as he can use it ledgetrap and edgeguard the opponents due to how it's knockback works, and he can use it for deadly combo setups. He has other [potent zoning tools as well, like his buffed arrows and his now normal Boomerang.

For Ganondorf, I kind of agree with you there, but mid tier in this game makes Melee's mid tier look like bottom tier in comparison imo.

All of the Links looks bonkers in this game imo.
 

Trifroze

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#11
First Snake impressions:
- Yes

He seems to play very similarly to Brawl (by which I'm implying that all the same things are good about him). The only things I miss so far are being able to chain multiple dthrows and dacus, though of course the regrab mechanics have been universal since S4, and I wouldn't expect to see a Smash character unintentionally slide across the stage with a mortar under Sakurai's piercing gaze in this age of patches.

Grenades are still godlike but there are likely a lot more characters who can contest them with their own projectile game. Also they come out on frame 1, though trading is a bit less good now since Snake weighs 106 instead of 113.

Damage output overall is higher than in Brawl which is just silly considering how much damage he did there, and how everyone got pretty major damage reductions in S4, and most of that wasn't tuned back up going into Ultimate (as far as I'm aware?). Up tilt is still dumb. Good. The range, along with ftilt, is noticeably shorter, but still solid compared to what you tend to see from similarly sized human characters in Smash.

Recovery is a question mark in future meta, but his high recovery is basically the same as in Brawl - B reversing nades all day into instant shield upon landing. His low recovery on the other hand is actually far superior to Brawl's due to up b snapping the ledge and directional airdodge being a thing.

Not fully familiar with his frame data in Brawl, but utilt startup is still 6, ftilt 4 (they both do 18% fresh), jab 3, dash attack 5. Why does a character like this exist.

Might main. Also trying Falcon and ZSS, but something seems off. Shaya probably hit some of those points, I'm still working on intuition. Though, I am very happy ZSS' side b and dtilt are good moves again.
 
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Shieldlesscap

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#12
Some things I’ve noticed:

- Falcon’s Dash seems to have a weird delay to it. This is kinda disappointing, but I can only imagine how ridiculous he’d be with his initial runspeed back at Smash 4 levels. Up B killing is disgusting and I love it, especially since some moves that are safe on Shield like Dair and Knee might just straight up force you to eat an Up B if they’re landed at the right time.
- As both Ryu and Ken, if you run toward the opponent and input Tatsu, they’ll turn around and Tatsu away from the opponent. This is awful, but it doesn’t seem to apply outside of 1v1s and you can still button Tatsu. Either way I think it’s getting patched eventually because it doesn’t seem intentional. Ken’s Up Air doesn’t seem to have enough knockback to be worth it. Also, his Dair is confirmed to Spike in case anyone wasn’t sure.
- Pichu’s uncharged Side B goes stupidly far, going all the way from the end of one Battlefield platform to the end of the Other off of a tap.
- Luigi’s parry can confirm into Shoryuken. Gross.
- Inkling can’t squidbag fast :(
 

Zinith

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#13
It is stupidly easy for Yoshi to juggle opponents with DJ up air. He can punish missed shorthop aerials with his new shield intangibility on his head follow up with ftilt, then a string of up airs...
 

TDK

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#14
Sheik's in an interesting spot in this game from play. While initially he felt like he traded combos for kill power, there's a few notable differences between him and smash 4 Sheik that I've noticed so far:

- Ftilt 50/50 is noticeably worse since you can't trap directional air dodges with Vanish that well
- Bair is stronger but still isn't anything to write home about
-Fthrow is way worse for combos, Fthrow 50/50 is gone unless they DI awfully
- Uthrow 50/50 is also gone and Uthrow isn't strong enough to be a kill throw either
- Fsmash hits link reliably
- You can jump out of needle charge
- SH Needles into tipper up smash is a confirm
- Fair strings are worse somehow, not sure if it's the air dodge system or fair itself being stronger

Overall, this puts Sheik in a very weird spot where his combos are worse but there and his kill power still really isn't. As such, if you can't land a needle confirm (Needles - BF still works too) he really doesn't have anything to go for. In neutral, he feels about the same. Fair might have a tiny bit more range, which helps since that and dash grab mixups are your bread and butter in neutral. Charging needles to bait an approach and then punishing is nice as well. His combo game feels slightly more damaging but less extensive, which is overall a nerf imo since instead of doing 8ish hits for 40 you're doing 4 hits for 30 and then having to reset. You can usually chain a few ftilts then reset into grab or fair to send them away before playing again until high percents. Sheik mains are really going to have to push their edgeguarding this game, his ledgetrapping's still good but edgeguarding is an opportunity for early kills and there looks to be a lot of good characters with more exploitable recoveries (Young Link, Olimar, Belmonts, Chrom, etc). Needles/Usmash or Needles/BF is going to be big, and they're his only kill confirms now so learning them is vital. They both suffer from being fairly situational as well, requiring fully charged needles and perfect spacing to do it.

Overall, he's not going to be bad because a character with his neutral and disadvantage isn't ever going to be bad, but he's even less rewarding than he was in smash 4. so he is overall worse.

I'll probably post on Olimar/Wii Fit at some point tomorrow.
 

Rizen

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#15
On Link, they literally made another Cloud in terms of air game: his aerials have heavily decreased landing lag and the frame 3 jumpsquat all greatly benefits his air game. He has a bigger sword, which combined with his greater mobility, allows him to throw out far reaching attacks both on the ground and on the air, which is also boosted by the dash canceling mechanic with his tilts. His new bombs are very good, as he can use it ledgetrap and edgeguard the opponents due to how it's knockback works, and he can use it for deadly combo setups. He has other [potent zoning tools as well, like his buffed arrows and his now normal Boomerang.

For Ganondorf, I kind of agree with you there, but mid tier in this game makes Melee's mid tier look like bottom tier in comparison imo.

All of the Links looks bonkers in this game imo.
Here's my thoughts on Link.
 

PK Gaming

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#16
Pin aside, Corrin is surprisingly intact in Smash Ultimate. Great damage and solid neutral (movement being significantly improved is legit godsend). KOing is harder now that pin isn't just a win button, but the character overall is fairly well rounded. Oh, and recovering takes a bit of effort on your part since you're helpless if your opponent is right in front of you.
 

Badrat

Smash Ace
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#18
It is stupidly easy for Yoshi to juggle opponents with DJ up air. He can punish missed shorthop aerials with his new shield intangibility on his head follow up with ftilt, then a string of up airs...
Gotta give it to you Yoshi's not the worst character in the game
 

MapleBeasts

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#19
Incineroar seems quite good aside from the recovery. At low percents down throw combos into shorthop fair nicely and fspecial kills super early when timed correctly. Knock back on his smash attacks is also huge, especially after a successful revenge. He can punish poor approaches with ease using shorthop nair into jab and his landing lag on all of his aerials doesn't feel bad though I'm not sure the exact numbers. His downtilt is excellent at confirming kills with uair at high percents. Another good true combo that does about 33% damage I've found at low to medium percents is sourspot fastfall nair dtilt into fair. Also really enjoying K.Rool. He has lots of kill options that work early. Dtilt burying opponents is a death sentence post 60-70% on much of the cast. He also has the best recovery of the heavies.
 
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Fane

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#20
Haven't really participated in competitive discussions before but I've been using a handful of fighters and here's some of my thoughts:

:ultcorrin:: Never played him in Sm4sh, but I can say he's still pretty damn good. I believe the only differences I can notice from gameplay footage of Sm4sh and Ultimate is that his counter is a bit less powerful and side b works a bit differently now? Regardless I think he's still a high tier pick, but not as far up as he was ranked in Sm4sh.

:ultincineroar:: Actually super good, don't know why he's ranked so low. The biggest selling points with Incineroar are his counter, side b, and throws. His counter is almost essential and imo it's the BEST counter in the game. Why? Ever other fighter's counters react to a move instantly and the power scales based on the power of the attack countered. Incineroar on the other hand, can proc Revenge off of little projectiles or tickle damage and gets a flat damage bonus on his next hit and that damage bonus is absolutely scary when combined with side b's lariat, dash attack, a smash, or a throw. The only way it's removed from what I've seen is from being grabbed/thrown, KO'ing or landing a hit, and crazily enough, landing a hit on a shield doesn't use it up. His recovery is pitiful, but his ground game is just SO strong that I think placing him in lower brackets is silly.

:ultinkling:: Probably the best character in the game tbh. Has insane speed and combo potential, and the ink damage bonus just pushes Inkling from really strong to basically godly. I've seen people 0% > KO with Inkling super quickly. Combine the combo potential, damage output, mobility, and ranged abilities with their very high recovery and you have possibly the best fighter in the game.

:ultisabelle:: Really fun and strong imo. I find it almost ESSENTIAL to have a Gyroid planted at all times to control more of the arena. Her Fishing Rod is perfect for recovery as well as a somewhat niche tool to get players away from you. Her smash attacks are all pretty strong, and her aerial game is basically the same as Villager's. Her jab is terrible imo and dash attack is okay at best. I'd say she's a mid-tier character. She excels in arena control mainly, which is very strong utility, but outside of this, she doesn't have amazing combo game and she doesn't necessarily kill early on much either.

:ultkrool:: If Inkling isn't the best character in the game, I'd say K. Rool is. Holy cow. He's a heavy with super armor on a LOT of his hard hitting abilities, he's the only heavy with actual GOOD range and phenomenal recovery, and he's actually pretty fast too. He has a LOT of options to go for to rack up damage safely and then he has so many moves that kill at low %'s since he's a hard-hitting heavy. I think ALL of his moves are very good, while some have some drawbacks such as horrible recovery time from using them or potential to screw up terribly, they are all very solid and strong choices in most scenarios. Seriously, if you haven't tried him, I'd consider you do that ASAP.

:ultpichu:: Ugh... I was hoping to be amazed by how good Pichu became in Ultimate, but I find myself disappointed. He's just not good. Especially when Pikachu is far superior in every single way. Pichu relies on getting in his opponent's faces and attempting to combo and kill early(as he can actually do this) but him being a lightweight and damaging himself on nearly 75% of his moves makes him such double-edged sword that it's not even funny. Most games I lose with Pichu is a result of my self-inflicted damage being the main cause of my downfall. I really hope that the self-damage is reduced in future updates.

:ultridley:: Actually not bad. He builds up a LOT of damage pretty fast and his selling points for me are side-b and down-b. You can dish out SO much damage with down-b if you land the sweetspot, and his side-b is a crazy good option to really mess your opponents up. The only problem with side-b is how easy it is to punish before you land it or after you miss. His neutral b is actually a really good zoning tool that builds up damage fast, but can be punished due to it's wind-up time. His recovery is... not amazing, despite being a alien dragon... pirate. He's a strong pick against a handful of characters, and decent against others. I've seen a lot of people just claim he's bad and nothing more to it, but I think he's just below mid-tier.

:ultduckhunt:: Pretty much in a slightly better spot than he was in Sm4sh. He got some minor buffs and tweaks, but nothing to make him a stand out character in either direction. I'd say he's low mid-tier just like Ridley, he has a great kit, the problem is that he has very little reliable or decent kill options in general. His aerials and throws just don't cut it and tilts are decent at best. If his specials weren't as good as they currently are, he'd be bottom tier imo.

Gonna try out Mewtwo, Ness, and Greninja a bit more before I comment on them, but I can say that Zelda is FAR better than any of her previous incarnations. She's no longer bottom tier imo, she's probably a high tier now.
 
Joined
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#21
:ultduckhunt:: Pretty much in a slightly better spot than he was in Sm4sh. He got some minor buffs and tweaks, but nothing to make him a stand out character in either direction. I'd say he's low mid-tier just like Ridley, he has a great kit, the problem is that he has very little reliable or decent kill options in general. His aerials and throws just don't cut it and tilts are decent at best. If his specials weren't as good as they currently are, he'd be bottom tier imo.
Duck Hunt got a lot of his KO power issues addressed in Ultimate (namely his multi-hit moves like up air and their smash attacks linking much better in comparison to SSB4). Their throws are decent for stage control and early percent combos (like in SSB4), and their already good special moves got buffed: Wild Gunman has overall better damage and knockback; Duck Jump can now be canceled into any move; Clay Shooting now expel damaging debris when destroyed; most importantly, you can now hit Trick Shot in the air, with it's knockback being increased. I almost forgot to mention that their forward air is now a disjoint (not sure if it applies to all of their aerials, but good buff nevertheless).

Duck Hunt seems like a big sleeper pick in this game imo.
 
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#22
:ultinkling:: Probably the best character in the game tbh. Has insane speed and combo potential, and the ink damage bonus just pushes Inkling from really strong to basically godly. I've seen people 0% > KO with Inkling super quickly. Combine the combo potential, damage output, mobility, and ranged abilities with their very high recovery and you have possibly the best fighter in the game.
Eh, I think Inklings struggle a little too much with swords, on top of not necessarily having the most reliable kill confirms on the block, to definitively say they're the best. They're definitely extremely consistent at being annoying and racking up damage though, and Splat Bomb is easily one of the most versatile projectiles in the game. Definitely a character that shows early promise and has some tremendous growth potential with all the tricky setups people are finding.
 
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#23
I'm struggling to imagine Zelda being good, lol. IDK much about her or TL. Link and ganon seem to have too much going for them to be low tier, although it's all relative to the rest of the cast. Ganon got some major buffs in mobility. Link lost his combo/zoning bombs but got some buffs. IMO they're both held back by poor frame data and disadvantaged states and will end up somewhere in mid-tier.

Here's my thoughts on YL:
I've been playing a lot of Zelda both online and offline. She takes some getting used to, but she's super solid. Not top tier by any means, but definitely high tier. She can wall out opponents with her Phantom really well, and has TONS of solid kill confirm options. Plus, her Farore's Wind will catch people off-guard for a getaway option, or even a counter-kill. It's really solid. Her Nayru's Love is a great get-off me move, and her shorthop Legs are mean as ****. Din's Fire has some nasty Okizemu, and will kill at high percentage. She's solid all around. Her biggest weakness is that she's got a lot of recovery frames on UpB, so it's not the safest move, though I haven't tried edge cancelling it yet. She's got a bit of learning curve as she's heavily reliant on conditioning and setups, which might put people off, but she's able to easily switch between defense and offense once you get the hang of her though. Biggest thing with her though, if you're not putting down Phantoms 90% of the match for pressure, you're playing her wrong.

She'll lose out to hard zone-breaker Rushdowns though.

:ultzelda: is a solid character all around, I really like her.

Other notes:

:ultrichter::ultsimon: Are crazy as ****. Not much exp with Richter, though I hear the same, but I'm running Simon as my secondary. Mean as ****. Short hop Fair and Bair have mad pressure if you can space correctly. Holy Water will wall people, and set them up for a Side Smash, which is a guaranteed kill at high damage. Cross does solid pressure, and can combo into Axe, and aerials. Holy Water+Axe is a mean as **** edgeguard that will get most people, and if they start catching on, do Holy Water + DSmash, and you'll kill there. Oh, and did I mention that Axe will kill? Cause it will kill, and it comes at a very aggressive angle. It a solid Anti Air all around, and will screw over other Zoners. Dair can combo into Fair, for extra damage. Fair can kill. Aerials can tether. And Ftilt is a strong footsies tool. Dtilt is a solid approach tool, that combos onto itself, can be followed up by Holy Water or Cross for Oki. It also doubles as an all-around movement option, etc... The Belmonts are super fun, and super strong. Biggest weakness is that if they can't tether back on stage, they're ****ed. They kill very fast though and have really strong neutral, arguably the best neutral in the game maybe.

:ultinkling: Haven't played them much, but I've fought plenty. Don't sleep on the squid kids, these are top-tier material right here. Ink management gives them a learning curve, but their pressure is insane. A good Inkling will wreck your ****. That's all I really have to say about them, solid characters all around. Crazy pressure, great recovery, can rack up damage real quick, tons of kill options. Up Smash is super good, Roller will bury you for a guaranteed kill, etc...

:ultkrool:Also really strong. This character literally has no weaknesses. Super strong zoning. Cannon ball can kill early if he shoots it ou a second time, and if you don't see it coming, it will get you. Crown has mad pressure, and super strong priority. A counter, tons of super armor moves, insane recovery, heavyweight that's REALLY hard to kill, hits hard and can zone. Really strong character, I do NOT like fighting him at all.

:ultcloud:Nerfed into the ground. He's headed straight for the low tiers. Cloud straight up doesn't work anymore. The limit nerfs were ok, balanced out the mechanic. However, Finishing touch no longer kills at 60%. He needs to get them well high up for a kill. He can't combo off Dtilt anymore. Uair doesn't kill anymore unless they're at really high damage. All his hitboxes for nerfed, he's got no range on his aerials anymore, killing his pressure. Dair has crazy landing lag. Fsmash and Dsmash lost their priority, making them useless. Cloud will now lose out most engagements in neutral. Fsmash is especially bad as the first two hits might as well not be there, they'll lose to jabs.

:ultzss:Haven't played much of her, but the first thing I noticed is that most of her combos are gone. She can;t follow up on throws anymore either, making her tether grab borderline pointless now. She's still pretty solid all-around, but I think she's gonna wind up being mid-tier. She didn't get nerfed to Cloud levels, but definitely got brought down a couple pegs.

:ultyounglink:The hype is real with this kid. He's super good. His zoning/pressure game is crazy strong. Arrow knock people upward, allowing for combo setups. Spin Attack is a solid get-off me tool. His weakness is that he doesn't have much kill power, and his tether has relatively short range, but he's still really strong all around. Not sure if we'll wind up being a top tier character, but like Zelda, high tier for sure.

:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: These two play fundamentally differently. Samus is straight up bad. She just doesn't work, but Damus' evasion is flat out stupid, good lord. She's super toxic to play online. Dunno where I'd rank either one, but that aside, expect to see a lot of Damus online, her camp is really hard to punish.
 
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bc1910

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#24
Greninja impressions.

A large portion of his kit has been fine tuned. What seem like minor QoL changes add up to a substantial buff.

Frame data has been tidied up on several key moves which turn his 50/50 kill confirms into true combos (also dash attack true combos into Usmash early on for a braindead 32% lol). Retains all of his kill confirms from Smash 4 besides Dthrow Fair. Dtilt Usmash is ridiculous as a true combo, dash attack to Fair gets stuff done. Fair's knockback has been buffed to the point that it exceeds pre-patch Smash 3DS Fair (reliably kills at 130ish midscreen) and raw Fair is pretty safe to throw out against anyone but the Belmonts. Fthrow and Ftilt kill at the ledge for some reason??? Uthrow is weaker, it kills at 180 but I rarely have to rely on it. With some of the most serviceable kill confirms in the game alongside Fair, Uair, powerful smashes and decent throws, this character oozes kill potential.

The engine benefits Greninja hugely. Dashing mechanics speak for themselves, what surprised me was the airdodge nerfs making Uair strings a lot scarier. Now that they can't be harmlessly dodge-spammed through, I've found myself killing at some disgustingly early percents on Battlefield in particular as Gren's jump height lets him get so close to the blastzone. Speaking of BF, Usmash hits properly through the platforms! It's not 100% consistent but it's good enough. This alone turns BF from an iffy stage to one of Greninja's best.

Seems like a real sleeper.
 
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#25
Some G&W, Puff, and Doc impressions. Overall, I'm liking how they've changed.
:ultgnw: It's a bit hard to explain, but he seems both similar and different from his Smash 4 iteration. He still has throw combos at low percents, but the only follows are N-air, B-air, and Fire (Up-B). But, with Up-Air being completely different, he has no throw confirm. He still has his dash dance, so his movement is good. I would say he would still have trouble KO'ing, but the changes to the airdodges help his edgeguarding a lot (Fire being a frame 2 move and B-air dealing considerable knockback help a lot). D-Smash being able to bury grounded opponents helps lead into his other Smash attacks (aerial opponents still get sent up). While F-Smash is shorter, the sour spot is also smaller, giving more priority to his powerful sweetspot. While Up-Air lost it's windbox, it's now a juggling tool and can, only aiding in his juggle game. And his new F-air helps him approach, retreat, start combos, you name it. It's a great tool, but it has a steeper learning curve to it compared to the rest of his moveset. And now he has more than just D-air to come back to the ground from the air thanks to F-air. The ability to change the trajectory of Chef's food is also a nice touch for his defensive game. I think he'll be somewhat relevant.
Oh, and Bucket is now a reflector and can still absorb projectiles. That really helps him avoid being projectile camped. He also still has Bucket Jumping (a bit less effective than Smash 4 from my experience), so he has among the best recoveries in the game, but I also get the impression that despite magnet hands being most gone, recoveries in the game are still good (except for Mac and Ridley).

:ultjigglypuff: Much better than in Smash 4. Despite rolls and dodges being nerfed, I think they benefit her greatly as she has to rely on her dash, and Puff with a dash dance / foxtrot is great. They open up more options for her to use on the ground, and most of her grounded options have been buffed. F-Tilt and Up-Smash now have killing power, D-air is more reliable as a move to combo from, Rest and B-air benefit from the 1.2x multiplier in Singles, and she still has access to most combos from Smash 4. Rest and Sing (and all her aerials too) having less endlag make them more viable and safe to use, which is cruicial considering her balloon weight. However, since everyone got a speed buff, I think she'll still struggle against the fast characters with disjoints. The reduction in rage sort of helps her, but I think she benefits the most from KO confirms that benefited from having a good amount of rage (like Ding Dong). I'm wait and see how she does in the first few months before passing judgement.

:ultdoc: His recovery is better. His damage output is also better as well. His new D-air helps his edgeguarding as he now has a way to meteor opponents, something he lacked in prior games. He also benefits from the reduction in jump squat frames as D-Throw -> F-air can work better (still feels inconsistent, though). Honestly, I can't say much bad about him except he's still prone to be juggled thanks to less airspeed and only having one usable move to come down with (N-air as D-air takes too long now) and his Megavitamins, despite being bigger and easier to hit with, now send upwards a bit, reducing its effectiveness as an edgeguard tool. Might help set up for combos in teams, though. I think he'll be pretty good until parrying gets figured out and juggling is more widespread. Kind of like Puff, he's an improved version of his Smash 4 self.
Speaking of doubles, though, his new B-Throw is worse for doubles since it no longer has a hitbox to protect himself.
 

Inking2003

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#26
:ultpichu:: Ugh... I was hoping to be amazed by how good Pichu became in Ultimate, but I find myself disappointed. He's just not good. Especially when Pikachu is far superior in every single way. Pichu relies on getting in his opponent's faces and attempting to combo and kill early(as he can actually do this) but him being a lightweight and damaging himself on nearly 75% of his moves makes him such double-edged sword that it's not even funny. Most games I lose with Pichu is a result of my self-inflicted damage being the main cause of my downfall. I really hope that the self-damage is reduced in future updates.
I know right? This is why I don't understand why almost all of the tier lists I've been seeing circulating the web have him in B tier. He really hasn't changed since he was introduced, and the only reason you would play :ultpichu: is to give your friend a better chance of beating you. The thing is, with custom balancing, you don't really need to pick an awful character to give your friend a better chance of winning.
 

Kairyu24

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#27
I know right? This is why I don't understand why almost all of the tier lists I've been seeing circulating the web have him in B tier. He really hasn't changed since he was introduced, and the only reason you would play :ultpichu: is to give your friend a better chance of beating you. The thing is, with custom balancing, you don't really need to pick an awful character to give your friend a better chance of winning.
I won't consider myself too much of a expert, but Pichu is promising offensively(and has a small hitbox), and has his old lightness and self-damaging gimmicks against him. However, him being instantly terrible because of the the latter remains to be seen. Being outclassed doesn't mean low tier, that turned out to be a fallacy with Lucina. It remains to be seen how his powerful positives and negatives cancel each other out. Maybe he will be ''low tier'' but still considered dangerous if a player gets outplayed with his good base kit. Bottom tiers usually have mobility or frame date problems, etc.

Ironically this means he's bad as a handicap character. A better player picking Pichu probably has a edge with Pichu's advantages if the situation is dire enough to consider ''handicaps''.
 

PK Gaming

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#28
It's funny how the sheer volume of characters in this game lends itself to certain characters going under the radar

I imagine a few characters will take more than a few months for their metagame to properly develop, haha
 

Inking2003

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#29
It's funny how the sheer volume of characters in this game lends itself to certain characters going under the radar

I imagine a few characters will take more than a few months for their metagame to properly develop, haha
I like using emojis so bare with me

You're definitely right. I have a feeling that those characters are going to be the ones who were in SSBB that weren't in SSB4 and are now returning again, except for :ultsnake:. Everyone was hype for :ultsnake:, so his metagame is going to be figured out pretty quickly. :ultwolf:is most likely going to be a great example of this. For most, he's just :ultfox:, when he is actually slightly different. Now that I say that, :ultwolf: should be an Echo Fighter of :ultfox:. :ultlink: might take a while as well because of his new play style. Most :ultlink: mains in SSB4 will have probably gone to either :ultyounglink: or :ulttoonlink:, since that's how they are used to playing. :ultpokemontrainer: is going to take a while as well, since :006: players will have to learn how to play :007: and :002: as well. All Echo Fighters will most likely take a while to have their metagame developed as well, unless we're talking about :ultchrom:. He's in the same boat as :ultsnake:. The other Echo Fighters are basically clones, so their metagame will be very similar if not identical to their parent fighter. Oh, and nobody plays :ultmiifighters: so their metagame will take forever as well
 
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#30
:ultwolf:is most likely going to be a great example of this. For most, he's just :ultfox:, when he is actually slightly different. Now that I say that, :ultwolf: should be an Echo Fighter of :ultfox:.
The only thing really similar between Fox and Wolf (aside from some similar physics) is their n-air. All of their normals and animations are different. They have special moves that are similar in concept, but function much differently.
Oh, and nobody plays :ultmiifighters: so their metagame will take forever as well
It feels like people are more inclined to play the Miis in this game, as their redesign and large buffs may make them more attractive to play as. Also, size changes are removed (as well as default Miis being created from the start when you unlock the Miis normally), so there is much less controversy to play them or have them allowed.
 

J0eyboi

Smash Journeyman
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Dec 28, 2017
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#31
My current thoughts:

:ultchrom: is absolutely better than Roy right now, for exactly one reason: He can force stock trades with his Up-B really easily. Without that, they'd be about equal. With that, Chrom's better.

:ultroy:'s jab has guaranteed followups from 0% up through 150%, including numerous kill confirms. Chrom's has a similarly stupid range, though I believe his followup range ends earlier. That said, Roy got one nerf that makes him literally unplayable: his fast fall is .02 units slower.

:ultfox: has the same gravity he did in Melee, which is terrifying. His fall speed is lower than in Melee, though.

:ultkrool: is overrated. His low mobility, massive hurtbox, physics that make him extremely susceptible to combos, and generally mediocre buttons will all hurt him in the long run, even with an above average disadvantage state.

:ultinkling: has the best initial dash in the game, no contest. That said, their kill options are limited, and I feel like once people get better at avoiding their few confirms / those confirms get nerfed, they're gonna struggle.

:ultpichu: has the Puff problem: bad range and burst options on a character virtually guaranteed to lose trades. Pichu can do a lot when he gets in, but is gonna have a lot of trouble doing that. He also has a really dumb quality where despite having an extremely high fall speed, his fast fall is almost identical to Pikachu's meaning he gets all the drawbacks of being a fastfaller and few of the benefits.

:ultshulk:'s SHFF in speed art is 2 frames slower than Melee Fox's. Speed art landing Nair > landing Nair is a true combo at low - mid %s. He's still got a lot of flaws, but he's insanely scary now.
 
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Inking2003

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#32
:ultkrool: is overrated. His low mobility, massive hurtbox, physics that make him extremely susceptible to combos, and generally mediocre buttons will all hurt him in the long run, even with an above average disadvantage state.
I get where you're coming from, but you're overlooking some major points. His recovery is one of the best in the game for how high he is able to go with it, and is definitely the best recovery for a heavyweight. His Down Tilt and Down Throw both get opponents stuck in the ground, which can lead to great followups. His Neutral B is also great for edge guarding. He can shoot off the cannon ball and then just stand their and suck like Kirby, throw the opponent back off the edge, then rinse and repeat. His Up Tilt has a stupid amount of launching power, and his Up Smash has 2 hitboxes, which give it surprising versatility. And the big hitbox is counter-balanced by his weight, which lets him take more damage and still remain in the fight
 

J0eyboi

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#33
I get where you're coming from, but you're overlooking some major points. His recovery is one of the best in the game for how high he is able to go with it, and is definitely the best recovery for a heavyweight. His Down Tilt and Down Throw both get opponents stuck in the ground, which can lead to great followups. His Neutral B is also great for edge guarding. He can shoot off the cannon ball and then just stand their and suck like Kirby, throw the opponent back off the edge, then rinse and repeat. His Up Tilt has a stupid amount of launching power, and his Up Smash has 2 hitboxes, which give it surprising versatility. And the big hitbox is counter-balanced by his weight, which lets him take more damage and still remain in the fight
I'm not overlooking any of that. He definitely has some good things other than his disadvantage. I don't think he's bad, but look at what people are calling him. Leffen put him top 7. ESAM thinks he's top tier. Some people in this thread think he's a contender for the best character in the game. That just doesn't sit right with me. He seems good, sure, but not nearly that good.
 

Inking2003

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#34
I'm not overlooking any of that. He definitely has some good things other than his disadvantage. I don't think he's bad, but look at what people are calling him. Leffen put him top 7. ESAM thinks he's top tier. Some people in this thread think he's a contender for the best character in the game. That just doesn't sit right with me. He seems good, sure, but not nearly that good.
Ok that clears things up for me. From the way you had phrased it, it seemed like you were saying that he should be down their with Pichu or the Mii Fighters. He is a good character. I definitely don't believe him to be the Metaknight of this game like the people you are referring to, but I do think he should be respected for what he is able to do. Just cause he's a heavyweight, that doesn't mean you can take him lightly. *HA HA IT'S A PUN GET IT!?!*
 
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#36
:ultroy:'s jab has guaranteed followups from 0% up through 150%, including numerous kill confirms. Chrom's has a similarly stupid range, though I believe his followup range ends earlier. That said, Roy got one nerf that makes him literally unplayable: his fast fall is .02 units slower.
How does Roy's .02 slower fast fall speed affect him that much? That change is seems barely noticeable at all. Wouldn't that also affect Chrom as he has the same physics as Roy as well?
 

Inking2003

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#38
Ok since we’re doing thoughts on characters, here’s what I think on a few due to advancing of opinions

:ultdk:: Underrated powerhouse. I know that sounds weird, but hear me out. He has a kill confirm at 50%, and it is stupidly simple to pull off. It’s literally his fully charged Neutral B. Simply smack the opponent 3-5 times, Side B for the line up, and then kill confirm. This can KO any fighter. And I mean ANY fighter, even the super heavyweights.

:ultinkling:: Shows promise. The mechanics are great and unique, but I still am struggling to figure out how to fill up ink while you still have some in the tank. Yeah I’m not the best at this.

I’ll probably have more comments in the future.
 
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#39
:ultsamus::ultdarksamus: These two play fundamentally differently. Samus is straight up bad. She just doesn't work, but Damus' evasion is flat out stupid, good lord. She's super toxic to play online. Dunno where I'd rank either one, but that aside, expect to see a lot of Damus online, her camp is really hard to punish.
Their rolls are 95% identical, are you sure lag isn't messing with you? Almost everything else is identical between the two as well, so either they're both bad or both good.
 
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