COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[kupo15]

I didn't read your whole post because I'm way too tired, but I can say I prefer your code set well over Brawl+.

Nice

So, in other words, you have a boner for melee?

You obviously missed the TL;DR

Okay. That's fine. Go play melee then. Leave us alone.

What the hell do you think I have been doing for the past 3 months? Just had to come in and fix Falco's misleading post.

 

[CountKaiser]

Not neccesarily. You dislike brawl+ because it isn't as tight as melee.

In other words, you prefer melee to brawl+, and got kicked out for trying to make brawl+ too much like melee, which you worded as making the game better.

So while my comment may be a bit scathing, the general idea is there. You enjoy melee. A lot.

 

[kupo15]

Not neccesarily. You dislike brawl+ because it isn't as tight as melee.

In other words, you prefer melee to brawl+, and got kicked out for trying to make brawl+ too much like melee, which you worded as making the game better.

So while my comment may be a bit scathing, the general idea is there. You enjoy melee. A lot.

Melee is the smash formula at its highest. However, my vision of Melee 2.0 wouldn't be an exact replica. I got kicked out for trying to make Brawl+ a really great game which happened to borrow a lot from melee because its a no brainer how great that game is not to mention, which game are we hacking anyway?

I do admit however, that the only thing Brawl+ has over Melee is character balance.

It is pretty frustrating the time and dedication I've spent in making the game better competitively and then have the direction of B+ quickly do a 180. So naturally I would hate B+ now and in fact, I hated it for the last month I was still in the WBR

So I guess what I am trying to say is this. I don't hate Brawl+ because it can never be as tight as melee (because it really isn't Brawl+'s fault that the core engine is naturally sucky in comparision), I hate Brawl+ because it had so much potential to be a great game but the WBR purposely chose to ignore this potential and go down a different road.

Its the truth

 

[Darkconda]

Melee is the smash formula at its highest. However, my vision of Melee 2.0 wouldn't be an exact replica. I got kicked out for trying to make Brawl+ a really great game which happened to borrow a lot from melee because its a no brainer how great that game is not to mention, which game are we hacking anyway?

I do admit however, that the only thing Brawl+ has over Melee is character balance.

It is pretty frustrating the time and dedication I've spent in making the game better competitively and then have the direction of B+ quickly do a 180. So naturally I would hate B+ now and in fact, I hated it for the last month I was still in the WBR

So I guess what I am trying to say is this. I don't hate Brawl+ because it can never be as tight as melee (because it really isn't Brawl+'s fault that the core engine is naturally sucky in comparision), I hate Brawl+ because it had so much potential to be a great game but the WBR purposely chose to ignore this potential and go down a different road.

Its the truth

You are correct! If more people were to play your version, I would play it every chance I got.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

I wish there was a Melee 2.0 except for the obvious thing like wavedashing, because that's poo-poo. It can be more like Melee 1.9

 

[Kink-Link5]

I wish hackers would invest their time into Melee+: Zelda can Combo and Mewtwo's D-tilt has vertical range Addition.

 

[Darkconda]

I wish hackers would invest their time into Melee+: Zelda can Combo and Mewtwo's D-tilt has vertical range Addition.

If more people played melee online I would do that as well. You can play it online VIA emulator or throught some other method I forgot how to do-involving Phantasy:Star & the gamecube broadband adapter+Action Replay. Yes of course theres delay-but what fighter doesn't have it online.

 

[CountKaiser]

Blazblue?

At least from what I heard.

 

[Sanu]

I'm pretty much in agreement with Kupo. Worse is that Kupo was the original pioneer of Brawl+ and was eventually kicked out by those that initially gravitated towards him and his project.

They kicked him out, took it over, and turned it into something completely different. Although, I'm not completely opposed to the direction Brawl+ has taken now but the fact that a group of people would CHANGE the originally intended direction and cast out the originator of the project just seems ridiculous and shameful to me. On the other hand, suggesting to add crouch canceling may have been a bit much <-<... that AT completely skewered Melee's metagame.

 

[Shell]

I'd just like to add that it's difficult to compare Brawl+'s purpose in its early, middle, and current days. It's been a complicated evolution, and I'm sorry that everyone can't be completely happy with it.

The beginning idea essentially was to create Melee 2.0, starting with the Melee Air Dodge, then an attempt at Manual Lag Canceling. This was really just messing around with the possibilities of codes, at that point.

It quickly became abundantly clear that people were not only against the idea of Melee 2.0, but were prepared to ridicule it relentlessly.

That was around the time that we actually got a vision together that started to resemble Brawl+ -- we streamlined the game and removed the elements of Melee that were the most alien to Brawl and then proceeded to make it as competitive game as possible.

Somewhat ironically, at this stage, Kupo was pushing for Brawl Air Dodge, Auto Lag Canceling, and more "Brawlish" levels of gravity. I was pushing for a hybrid dodge system, ALC, and higher levels of gravity. Our stances have nearly flip-flopped since .

I'm not trying to say that kicking Kupo out was the right thing to do or not, I'm just trying to say that it's not as clear-cut "ridiculous" and "shameful" as you make it out to be.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

Is there anyone still interested in creating Melee 2.0?

Edit: Because that would be great.

 

[kupo15]

On the other hand, suggesting to add crouch canceling may have been a bit much <-<... that AT completely skewered Melee's metagame.

Correction, I have said several times back there and even a couple posts back that I would like a form of crouch canceling...not a replica of it. Here is what made me think to suggest this. It was around the time where I was extensively testing for a better ganon dsmash (melee one) to compensate for the loss of choke combos. Then it occurred to me, "****, why is the first kick of the dsmash soooo much harder to tech in melee than brawl+?" And then it occurred to me....crouch canceling. See, in melee, in order to tech that first kick, you have to input the downward DI at the moment of impact. If you were to be too early, then CC mechanics would make you slide across the floor, missing the second kick but at least the move worked well enough as to not be completely useless. (With the potential to set up for an edge guard by sliding off the stage. If you were to input your DI too late in melee, then the second kick would connect so your timing has to be really precise.

In Brawl+ however without CC of any form, you can easy input your DI well before the hit and tech the first kick with sooo much ease. So my proposal was for a "form" of CC where it would still act like this without the part that people hated from melee. Some suggestions were to remove the ability to DI downwards while in crouching or to keep the "insta knockdown" part of Melee CC (which occurs during tumble) and not include the "No flinch" aspect which occurs before tumble.

This would of course hold true for those moves that send horizontally like those Ganon Ftilts, Ganon jabs, Gentlemens (oh wait) and other moves. Yoshi's Island really makes these "tech in the same spot that you got hit and stay there without any slide that everyone isn't like WTF and love" happen more frequently. So that is my reasoning behind adding a form (form, version, variation) of CC.

It quickly became abundantly clear that people were not only against the idea of Melee 2.0, but were prepared to ridicule it relentlessly.

That was around the time that we actually got a vision together that started to resemble Brawl+ -- we streamlined the game and removed the elements of Melee that were the most alien to Brawl and then proceeded to make it as competitive game as possible.

Somewhat ironically, at this stage, Kupo was pushing for Brawl Air Dodge, Auto Lag Canceling, and more "Brawlish" levels of gravity. I was pushing for a hybrid dodge system, ALC, and higher levels of gravity. Our stances have nearly flip-flopped since .

I'm not trying to say that kicking Kupo out was the right thing to do or not, I'm just trying to say that it's not as clear-cut "ridiculous" and "shameful" as you make it out to be.

I do admit that my stances on things has changed a lot...but I don't feel that brawl+ was at a state where it was forbidden to adapt.

At first, I didn't really want melee 2.0 like everyone else. But with more and more testing and digging the game apart and really figuring things out, the more I understood why things really should be much more like melee which is the reason why I compared the games and really picked apart the differences and what was taken out of the game and such in which I felt as if people really didn't appreciate my findings. Things like sliding during techs when sent flying pretty fast was looked down upon despite the fact that it was in both 64 and melee....and its pretty obvious why its a good thing to have. But there was some things that people tried out like NADT but after playing the game so long without it, people just refused to really try it out and try and adapt to it despite all of the great points from the Pro NADT side.

On the subject of Melee 2.0, that is REALLY a misnomer I think especially in regards to my Melee 2.0. There are obviously things that simple don't work in Brawl's engine such as Wavedashing. I have been very consistent with being against wavedashing the entire time and I don't ever think Wavedashing would be healthy for the game. However, I would like to see the air dodge not be so stupidly powerful. Being able to FF AD from the top of the stage and make it to the ground invincibly is flat out ********. My proposed suggestion to fix it would be a gravity change during the air dodge and stopping all FF speed in order to contain the area covered while invincible to a reasonable amount (somewhere near melee's range). So as you see, this would be a melee 2.0 mechanic that has been adapted well for brawl I feel.

I was somewhat against L canceling since the introduction of auto l canceling for the reasons provided at that time which were that it adds no depth. Very true but I never thought on my own about why to include it at the time until later in the project when I realized that its purpose is not to add depth, but to add a challenge to the game. Comboing is far easier when you don't have to worry about having to cancel an aerial. There really wasn't much I could do to get the code fixed up to where it was usable with PW on break and pre Almas and PK not to mention there were a bunch of other codes with higher priority at the time.

So it took a backburner but if I would have known that the project would eventually decided not to adapt anymore, I would have pushed for the fixing of MLC then before people got comfortable. And now that I hear its possible to add analog recognition to the shoulder buttons, that would be perfect, but if not, its no different than 64's digital input for Z canceling. Also, the mechanic wasn't broke in any way and worked beautifully in both previous games that it should have been included to keep the games consistent.

I already explained my plan for CC so that wouldn't be a melee replica.

I do not want to see ledge rolling occupancy make a return. I thought that was pretty dumb.

I also wanted to remove or at least fix some goofy, dumb brawl **** that was put there to make it more like Mario party 50. Things like swimming. My idea was to remove the ability to swim all together, but if you wanted to make water actually play a role in the game, unlike melee, then make water act like moon gravity. That definitely would be pretty neat and add a twist to things. It aids recovery without making it overpowered and without silly 3 minute water splash fests where nothing competitive or good comes from it.

Foot stooling is bad in the way it was implemented. Either find a way to make it different than the jump button, not so rewarding for accidents, or just suck it up and remove it completely because I don't see any true competitive value to how it functions now. It just gets in the way.

So yea, MY Melee 2.0 isn't exactly....Melee 2.0. It can still be considered Brawl+ by sticking as much to the original design of the competitive game while tailoring it to Brawl's engine to make it work

I have flip flopped my ideas for the project, but that is certainly not unheard of. Its ridiculous to expect that one should and must not change their thoughts over the course of a project such as this. I felt that I had great ideas and plans for this game, but it seems like the project wanted non of it. Its a shame that it had to lose such a dedicated member that helped to shape it from the very beginning.

 

[Darkconda]

Correction, I have said several times back there and even a couple posts back that I would like a form of crouch canceling...not a replica of it. Here is what made me think to suggest this. It was around the time where I was extensively testing for a better ganon dsmash (melee one) to compensate for the loss of choke combos. Then it occurred to me, "****, why is the first kick of the dsmash soooo much harder to tech in melee than brawl+?" And then it occurred to me....crouch canceling. See, in melee, in order to tech that first kick, you have to input the downward DI at the moment of impact. If you were to be too early, then CC mechanics would make you slide across the floor, missing the second kick but at least the move worked well enough as to not be completely useless. (With the potential to set up for an edge guard by sliding off the stage. If you were to input your DI too late in melee, then the second kick would connect so your timing has to be really precise.

In Brawl+ however without CC of any form, you can easy input your DI well before the hit and tech the first kick with sooo much ease. So my proposal was for a "form" of CC where it would still act like this without the part that people hated from melee. Some suggestions were to remove the ability to DI downwards while in crouching or to keep the "insta knockdown" part of Melee CC (which occurs during tumble) and not include the "No flinch" aspect which occurs before tumble.

This would of course hold true for those moves that send horizontally like those Ganon Ftilts, Ganon jabs, Gentlemens (oh wait) and other moves. Yoshi's Island really makes these "tech in the same spot that you got hit and stay there without any slide that everyone isn't like WTF and love" happen more frequently. So that is my reasoning behind adding a form (form, version, variation) of CC.




I do admit that my stances on things has changed a lot...but I don't feel that brawl+ was at a state where it was forbidden to adapt.

At first, I didn't really want melee 2.0 like everyone else. But with more and more testing and digging the game apart and really figuring things out, the more I understood why things really should be much more like melee which is the reason why I compared the games and really picked apart the differences and what was taken out of the game and such in which I felt as if people really didn't appreciate my findings. Things like sliding during techs when sent flying pretty fast was looked down upon despite the fact that it was in both 64 and melee....and its pretty obvious why its a good thing to have. But there was some things that people tried out like NADT but after playing the game so long without it, people just refused to really try it out and try and adapt to it despite all of the great points from the Pro NADT side.

On the subject of Melee 2.0, that is REALLY a misnomer I think especially in regards to my Melee 2.0. There are obviously things that simple don't work in Brawl's engine such as Wavedashing. I have been very consistent with being against wavedashing the entire time and I don't ever think Wavedashing would be healthy for the game. However, I would like to see the air dodge not be so stupidly powerful. Being able to FF AD from the top of the stage and make it to the ground invincibly is flat out ********. My proposed suggestion to fix it would be a gravity change during the air dodge and stopping all FF speed in order to contain the area covered while invincible to a reasonable amount (somewhere near melee's range). So as you see, this would be a melee 2.0 mechanic that has been adapted well for brawl I feel.

I was somewhat against L canceling since the introduction of auto l canceling for the reasons provided at that time which were that it adds no depth. Very true but I never thought on my own about why to include it at the time until later in the project when I realized that its purpose is not to add depth, but to add a challenge to the game. Comboing is far easier when you don't have to worry about having to cancel an aerial. There really wasn't much I could do to get the code fixed up to where it was usable with PW on break and pre Almas and PK not to mention there were a bunch of other codes with higher priority at the time.

So it took a backburner but if I would have known that the project would eventually decided not to adapt anymore, I would have pushed for the fixing of MLC then before people got comfortable. And now that I hear its possible to add analog recognition to the shoulder buttons, that would be perfect, but if not, its no different than 64's digital input for Z canceling. Also, the mechanic wasn't broke in any way and worked beautifully in both previous games that it should have been included to keep the games consistent.

I already explained my plan for CC so that wouldn't be a melee replica.

I do not want to see ledge rolling occupancy make a return. I thought that was pretty dumb.

I also wanted to remove or at least fix some goofy, dumb brawl **** that was put there to make it more like Mario party 50. Things like swimming. My idea was to remove the ability to swim all together, but if you wanted to make water actually play a role in the game, unlike melee, then make water act like moon gravity. That definitely would be pretty neat and add a twist to things. It aids recovery without making it overpowered and without silly 3 minute water splash fests where nothing competitive or good comes from it.

Foot stooling is bad in the way it was implemented. Either find a way to make it different than the jump button, not so rewarding for accidents, or just suck it up and remove it completely because I don't see any true competitive value to how it functions now. It just gets in the way.

So yea, MY Melee 2.0 isn't exactly....Melee 2.0. It can still be considered Brawl+ by sticking as much to the original design of the competitive game while tailoring it to Brawl's engine to make it work

I have flip flopped my ideas for the project, but that is certainly not unheard of. Its ridiculous to expect that one should and must not change their thoughts over the course of a project such as this. I felt that I had great ideas and plans for this game, but it seems like the project wanted non of it. Its a shame that it had to lose such a dedicated member that helped to shape it from the very beginning.

Kupo is right again. Brawl+is not competitive. Who want to play a game where your stunned for 5m. It may or may not be that way in kupos. It sure seems like less. I know Kupos plays much faster.

 

[Rkey]

"There are as many realities as there are observers", and even though your thoughts and opinions are obviously a part of your reality, they do not necessarily have to be a part of mine. In this case, they aren't, and I think Brawl+ is one of the best fightning games I have ever played.

 

[Problem2]

honestly, Brawl+ started having political issues when the SBR said that Melee Airdodging would alienate players. From that point on, there was always a check to see if something felt to melee-ish, and if it was, it was thrown out, especially when it came to airdodging.

Other complaints I have with Brawl+ are all the god **** frame speed ups. Why are there so many? Do we want a game where everything is safe? Excitement builds when things are risky. I understand that at one point, we had ALR be at 50%, but we've changed the shield since then, why don't we tone down the ALR a little? I was looking at how they were going to change Fox's d-air because it was too good, but instead of making it suffer more ending lag like it did in Brawl, they're going to make the attack itself weaker. Makes no sense to me.

The way I see it:

T.Link's and Mr.G&W's d-air should have 100% original landing lag

Wario, Peach, Metaknight, and Kirby should have 75% original landing lag, because they are good at staying airborne.

Bowser, Ike, Link, and Ganondorf should have 55% original landing lag, because they are slow and vulnerable almost all the time.

and the rest of the cast should have 62% original landing lag.

If you want moves to be safer, land them against your opponent's shield and then space well. Also, don't be predictable or your opponent will side step.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*EDIT*
@Kuppo: I agree with you buddy. I lost interest when the tools to customize your own set were no longer available. Some texture files would be nice. Also still agree about the airdodging ordeal, but you already knew that.

 

[Perfect Chaos]

T.Link's and Mr.G&W's d-air should have 100% original landing lag

I believe G&W's d-air is already set to 100% lag. But regardless, this isn't really the thread to suggest changes to B+. The Nightly Build thread is the one for such purposes.

 

[GHNeko]

Other complaints I have with Brawl+ are all the god **** frame speed ups. Why are there so many? Do we want a game where everything is safe? Excitement builds when things are risky. I understand that at one point, we had ALR be at 50%, but we've changed the shield since then, why don't we tone down the ALR a little? I was looking at how they were going to change Fox's d-air because it was too good, but instead of making it suffer more ending lag like it did in Brawl, they're going to make the attack itself weaker. Makes no sense to me.

Attacks were made weaker, rather than slower to increase the speed flow of the game, also, if an attack has more ending lag, it affects the combo's that the character has. :V

 

[TommyDerMeister]

Hey Kupo, is there a link to your "Melee 2.0", or should I PM you about that. I definitely want to try it out.

 

[kupo15]

My "Melee 2.0" is quite incomplete because I quit over 2 months ago and there still are codes that I want that aren't even made. But you can find my last beta in the second post of the nightly builds thread. I forget if there was a thing that is in there that I didn't like or not. Also keep in mind that it is really behind as far as frame speed and hitbox changes for the reasons above. But you can check out the direction I wanted to go there

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Kupo is right again. Brawl+is not competitive. Who want to play a game where your stunned for 5m. It may or may not be that way in kupos. It sure seems like less. I know Kupos plays much faster.

That's some really liberal use of the word "competitive" here. There were things I liked better in kupo's set back then but come on.
Also, I wish you had been around to try MuBa's set, lol.

 

[codfish92]

competitive is broad word anyway. technically, if you can find any way to play against someone in anything, it's competitive.

 

[Darkconda]

competitive is broad word anyway. technically, if you can find any way to play against someone in anything, it's competitive.

Very true.

 

[Seikishidan Soru]

Indeed. I did get confused as to what people meant in these threads over the course of the various discussions because of that though. And here I just don't get what you're talking about. I was in favor of NADT, but the amount of hitstun seems about right to me. I believe this has been discussed before: more leads to 0-death fests, less means getting rid of staple combos and back to vBrawl-like nonsense.

 

[kupo15]

I was in favor of NADT, but the amount of hitstun seems about right to me. I believe this has been discussed before: more leads to 0-death fests, less means getting rid of staple combos and back to vBrawl-like nonsense.

Hitstun depends on a lot of different factors. You can have less hitstun but higher (slightly) gravity and still keep the staple combos. You can lower hitstun, keep staple combos, lose some other true combos that shouldn't be true combos (which makes insane comboing very easy), add NADT to help with zoning to help you take a risk to continue the combo. That is what I noticed a lot in melee. Usually big combos come from a 2(3) true combo, then you need to work a little bit and take a little risk with "stringing" together another move that is not guaranteed, which then leads into another 2(3) hit combo.

So I don't think that less hitstun necessarily means the loss of staple combos

 

[Master Knight DH]

Is it true Olimar's Pikmin still scatter in fast-fall under 1.2-1.25 times down gravity? I ask because I'm wanting to have a code to fix the problem of the Pikmin scattering under the 1.5 times down gravity that I'm using.

Yes, I tried 1.5 times down gravity out. A few down airs and a few recoveries get hard to use right, and the maneuverability in the helpless state of characters like Lucas is less glaring, but I like the general speed otherwise. What I really hate, however, to the point of making this post, is Olimar's Pikmin scattering if I fast-fall. Even by Cheap Wimp standards, Olimar is a definite Cheap Wimp under 1.5 times down gravity in comparison to under normal down gravity, where his Cheap Wimp status is already glaring (thank his gimpable, if risky to gimp, recovery in return for his ranged grab of doom and his Pikmin Chain that can be used to punish air attacks). The problem? If his Pikmin are scattered, his Pikmin Chain will be too short to hope for *any* successful recovery once his mid-air jump is used up. This wouldn't be a problem if his Pikmin weren't *already* scattered to force him to need the Pikmin Whistle to gather his Pikmin, which results in him also fast-falling because the Whistle is DOWN B, so his Pikmin end up scattered again. Either way, he's dead, there clearly should be a code to keep the Pikmin near Olimar when he fast-falls so this doesn't happen.

I don't mind accompanying codes to balance out faster falling Olimar, although I would prefer it be made clear what the accompanying codes do. I just want this freaking issue over and dealt with.

 

[Rkey]

The OP should be updated here, and I think it would be nice to move all the discussion on the plussery set to brawlplus.net, kupos set can be discussed here.

 

[kupo15]

The OP should be updated here, and I think it would be nice to move all the discussion on the plussery set to brawlplus.net, kupos set can be discussed here.

Updated with what? As far as I know, there have been no advancements in codes pertaining to game mechanics.

 

[Revven]

Updated with what? As far as I know, there have been no advancements in codes pertaining to game mechanics.

Well, there actually was one, Cape made it possible to ledgetech with CAM.

 

[kupo15]

Well, there actually was one, Cape made it possible to ledgetech with CAM.

I read about that it was being tested, nice that it works. Now there are no excuses not to make ledge grab range not so ridiculous now.

(I though CAM was an orderly sort of code. How did you make it so that it reads "If an input happens after this, this happens" sort a thing?)

 

[Darkconda]

I read about that it was being tested, nice that it works. Now there are no excuses not to make ledge grab range not so ridiculous now.

(I though CAM was an orderly sort of code. How did you make it so that it reads "If an input happens after this, this happens" sort a thing?)

I would like to know as well !

 

[Master Knight DH]

I see 9 character ID numbers not listed. Of course, 2 of them can be guessed who they must belong to based on their locations, but the other 7 (24, 26, 27, 28, 2A, 2B, and 2D) are in locations that make it not so obvious who they would correspond to. Would any of them happen to be any Final Smash forms or Olimar's Pikmin or what?

 

[Perfect Chaos]

I read about that it was being tested, nice that it works. Now there are no excuses not to make ledge grab range not so ridiculous now.

Exactly! Is there still something wrong with it, or something? Since I would really want to test out ledge-teching (with decreased ledge-grab range, of course) in a nightly (and hopefully, it'll stay).

(I should have posted this in the nightly thread, but since I didn't want to completely change the subject there, and since it was already brought up here, I decided to post it here.)

 

[shanus]

Exactly! Is there still something wrong with it, or something? Since I would really want to test out ledge-teching (with decreased ledge-grab range, of course) in a nightly (and hopefully, it'll stay).

(I should have posted this in the nightly thread, but since I didn't want to completely change the subject there, and since it was already brought up here, I decided to post it here.)

its in the set and seems to make it easier, but still not true SDIable ledgetechs

 

[abcool]

Are you guys ever gonna continue updating codes on this thread? I kinda like this nightly, i actually feel like playing brawl+ again.

 

[kupo15]

Are you guys ever gonna continue updating codes on this thread? I kinda like this nightly, i actually feel like playing brawl+ again.

Just waiting for new codes. I'm not quite sure how to document the SDI code since it won't work by itself.

 

[Master Knight DH]

Can you post the codes for general dash speed and general air speed at least?

 

[kupo15]

Can you post the codes for general dash speed and general air speed at least?

That's all PSA stuff that I have no idea how to work plus I don't think its actual codes. All your info on that should be in the PSA thread which means it doesn't belong here.

its in the set and seems to make it easier, but still not true SDIable ledgetechs

They aren't "auto" ledge teching....are they? It sounds that way seeing how its CAM.

 

[Kink-Link5]

As near as I can tell, between PSA and framespeed mods, there is almost no need for any other codes, and I think that was Phantom Wing's plan in the first place, lol.

 

[grim mouser]

Move-wise, sure, but L/R partial presses and other stuff that slips my mind would be nice.

 

[leafgreen386]

They aren't "auto" ledge teching....are they? It sounds that way seeing how its CAM.

If previous action = tumble and current action = hit wall (soft), replace with = hit wall (hard)

Is basically how the CAM line reads. So no, it's not auto-teching.