krazyzyko
Smash Champion
Wouldn't it be awesome if you could program your GC controller to do the melee air-dodge on the R-button and the Brawl air dodge on the L-button? (or viceversa)
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COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda
- Thread starter kupo15
- Start date
RyuReiatsu
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Jan 17, 2009
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- 408
It sucks combined with Brawl mechanics.i wish wave dashing was official for brawl+ cuz i like it
Don't.
Zen Yore
Smash Ace
zamus has an infinite dgrab chaingrab on captain falcon
![[TSON]](/data/avatars/l/114/114196.jpg?1360761019){kind=avatar}
[TSON]
Hella.
I doubt that it would make any difference but..
I don't want to see this code in Brawl+..
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2009
- Messages
- 3,299
They aren't planning on putting it in, I would guess. They have much more important matters to attend to (COUGHLEDGESTUFFCOUGH)
kupo15
Smash Hero
why not. People don't like the fact how you can't do dsmashes from a crouch but you can do the other smashes. It won't affect your custom controls
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
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and who does tilts with the c-stick anyways? just tilt the analog stick + a. Tap jump off helps too D:
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Yeah I personally hate the inconsistency of trying to dsmash out of a dash.
...but crawldashing in both directions it more important!
...but crawldashing in both directions it more important!
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
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true dat. :D
RetroS
Smash Rookie
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- Sep 26, 2009
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- 11
My opinion:
-The only good excuse I heard for auto l cancelling was that it doesn't work well with the gravity. The stuff about it giving certain characters a disadvantage is a load of bunk. Characters that already had no aerial lag already had an advantage, and l-cancelling in fact gives an advantage to people that play characters like ganondorf who have the skill to l-cancel. And yes, I think people should have to learn how to l-cancel. If you think that's too much to ask, why aren't you playing vanilla brawl? If I'm wrong and l-cancelling would give characters with low aerial lag an advantage, why not make it the full l-cancel that smash 64 had, evening out the advantage? This would make comboing easier for heavy characters. And no matter who gets an advantage, Brawl+ is all about balancing those out, so it will be done eventually. As for the whole gravity thing, I think the game should be less floaty, so that's not a very good reason to me either.
-I think single brawl air dodge would be a good idea. Or get rid of air dodging entirely, because it's campy and makes it too easy to avoid aerial games.
-Also imo the hit lag should be increased some more to increase combo potential. I watch "combo" videos for Brawl+ and they still look like n00bs and there aren't even that many real combos. In any case, only a few characters have good combos.
-Some characters' aerials need to be shortened in case someone uses them to edgeguard. i.e. if peach is recovering and sheik pulls out a nair and fast falls towards peach and then hits, sheik is dead anyway because her nair lasts too long.
Yes, all of these things would make the game less like brawl. But if this project doesn't exist because brawl is a crappy competitive game, then why does it? All of my suggestions will add skill and depth to the game.... not that anyone will read the 700 something-th post (I mean, page)... but I just gotta put it out there.
-The only good excuse I heard for auto l cancelling was that it doesn't work well with the gravity. The stuff about it giving certain characters a disadvantage is a load of bunk. Characters that already had no aerial lag already had an advantage, and l-cancelling in fact gives an advantage to people that play characters like ganondorf who have the skill to l-cancel. And yes, I think people should have to learn how to l-cancel. If you think that's too much to ask, why aren't you playing vanilla brawl? If I'm wrong and l-cancelling would give characters with low aerial lag an advantage, why not make it the full l-cancel that smash 64 had, evening out the advantage? This would make comboing easier for heavy characters. And no matter who gets an advantage, Brawl+ is all about balancing those out, so it will be done eventually. As for the whole gravity thing, I think the game should be less floaty, so that's not a very good reason to me either.
-I think single brawl air dodge would be a good idea. Or get rid of air dodging entirely, because it's campy and makes it too easy to avoid aerial games.
-Also imo the hit lag should be increased some more to increase combo potential. I watch "combo" videos for Brawl+ and they still look like n00bs and there aren't even that many real combos. In any case, only a few characters have good combos.
-Some characters' aerials need to be shortened in case someone uses them to edgeguard. i.e. if peach is recovering and sheik pulls out a nair and fast falls towards peach and then hits, sheik is dead anyway because her nair lasts too long.
Yes, all of these things would make the game less like brawl. But if this project doesn't exist because brawl is a crappy competitive game, then why does it? All of my suggestions will add skill and depth to the game.... not that anyone will read the 700 something-th post (I mean, page)... but I just gotta put it out there.
SymphonicSage12
Smash Master
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- Feb 6, 2009
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1. the wbr likes auto l-cancelling. Having to press another button is just plain stupid and boring. Basically just another way to get gamers to get arthritis faster.
2. Fail. We've already nerfed the airdodge enough. And it doesn't make it too easy to avoid aerial games. Learn to time your attack through an airdodge.
3. That's just your fault for nairing with Sheik offstage. Don't do it. >.> or find another way to gimp peach? sheik fair is much better for gimping.
And no, l-cancelling does not add depth. It just adds another clacky noise to tournaments and makes for more ridiculous button pressing like a schizophrenic. You may think that auto l cancelling is easy mode, but it's not going to be changed by multiple consensus.
EITHER WAY YOUR SUGGESTIONS ARE NOT GOING TO BE AGREED WITH BY THE WBR. DONT GET YOUR HOPES UP.
2. Fail. We've already nerfed the airdodge enough. And it doesn't make it too easy to avoid aerial games. Learn to time your attack through an airdodge.
3. That's just your fault for nairing with Sheik offstage. Don't do it. >.> or find another way to gimp peach? sheik fair is much better for gimping.
And no, l-cancelling does not add depth. It just adds another clacky noise to tournaments and makes for more ridiculous button pressing like a schizophrenic. You may think that auto l cancelling is easy mode, but it's not going to be changed by multiple consensus.
EITHER WAY YOUR SUGGESTIONS ARE NOT GOING TO BE AGREED WITH BY THE WBR. DONT GET YOUR HOPES UP.
RetroS
Smash Rookie
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- Sep 26, 2009
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- 11
l-cancelling does not give gamers arthritis. If gamers get arthritis, it's from keyboards.
Clacky noises during tournaments are fine by me.
Even if pros can all l-cancel anyway making it manual is still good because it's another way in which serious players can beat the crap out of noobs (which is depth). And if the wbr isn't going to take my suggestions you don't have to get all riled up about it.
And how has airdodge been nerfed? I'm not seeing it.
And sheik's nair is just an example. some characters might have only 1 short aerial, and then their ledgeplay suffers.
Clacky noises during tournaments are fine by me.
Even if pros can all l-cancel anyway making it manual is still good because it's another way in which serious players can beat the crap out of noobs (which is depth). And if the wbr isn't going to take my suggestions you don't have to get all riled up about it.
And how has airdodge been nerfed? I'm not seeing it.
And sheik's nair is just an example. some characters might have only 1 short aerial, and then their ledgeplay suffers.
RetroS
Smash Rookie
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You hardly have any validity in saying that, but fine. Let me then talk about the concept of depth you mentioned. If players are pushed away as soon as they lose, do we really want them on the scene? If I were to take what you said to an extreme, and I apologize for doing so, you seem to be arguing that someone who's never played Brawl+ before should be able to go in and win tournaments, which does not encourage competition. Has the brawl mentality been drilled in too hard?
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Also, with your "hitlag" argument, hitlag has nothing to do with combos. If you meant hitstun, you are saying there's so little of it that players "look like n00bs" because there aren't any real combos?
There's one person who looks like a n00b here, and he's the one who hasn't realized that Brawl+ has MORE hitstun that Melee does.
EDIT: Someone link this guy up to one of the hundreds of L cancel arguments that have been lost in the past; I really don't want to do this again...
There's one person who looks like a n00b here, and he's the one who hasn't realized that Brawl+ has MORE hitstun that Melee does.
EDIT: Someone link this guy up to one of the hundreds of L cancel arguments that have been lost in the past; I really don't want to do this again...
RetroS
Smash Rookie
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Ok, see, now here's someone who actually has a valid argument in addition to flaming me. Yes, I did mean hitstun. But even if Brawl+ has more hitstun than melee, are you taking into account the fact that Brawl+ is still slower as well? If you are, then I withdraw my comment and will instead point out that no good combo videos have been made yet. And yes, granted that you all seem to agree that l-cancelling has been argued for all of eternity, I would expect that you would be able to point out an argument to me that I find convincing.
jokey665
Smash Ace
Why should we search through 700+ page threads for you? If you care enough to look at old arguments, go search them out yourself.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
Brawl+ is floatier than Melee, and for a few other minute reasons, ends up feeling slower. I don't see what's wrong with Brawl+ combo videos, though I think that watching matches is somehow a lot more interesting.
Can you elaborate? Are there not enough combos or something?
Can you elaborate? Are there not enough combos or something?
RetroS
Smash Rookie
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In combo videos, people include non-combos i.e. fsmashing someone on the ground. Such attacks rely on the opponent not teching and are not impressive. In general, yes, there aren't enough combos, and the combos I see are short. Edit: there are some good combos but they are limited to certain characters. I've only been really impressed by captain falcon combos so far.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
kupo15
Smash Hero
I just wanted to point out that what you stated is the reason against l canceling is invalid. Also, the WBR point that all it does is make the game harder for no reason is invalid also. The reason being is because the WBR added JC shine which does nothing but add difficulty. There is never a time where you wouldn't want to JC shine.
I don't want to argue but just pointing out that the WBR has a double standard for this sort of thing which means the only reason why there won't ever be l canceling is because they don't want it.
RetroS, you do make an interesting point
Great thought provoking question
RetroS
Smash Rookie
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That's pretty impressive. But a lot of the KOs in that video weren't part of the combo or relied on the opponent failing their recovery. Alright, hitstun is fine. I take that back. characters just need to be balanced, which I'm sure will happen.
No. I was here for Melee. So no Brawl mentality here. But regardless, Pros owning newbs != depth.
Also, beating the crap out of players < simply beating players. Players get discouraged alot easier when they are completely obliterated. They normally don't feel the same adren rush that players feel in an intense battle that even from start to finish and come down to last blow. In order to actually show them the intensity of Smash, they need to feel said intensity, but if they dont get a chance, then they will shy away from the game and the community would lose a memeber with ungauged potential.
In no way am I saying that Newbs should come in and be able to beat pros or even come close to beating pros.
CloneHat
Smash Champion
We're working on it!
Right now we've got a long-term build that we're using to let the game develop a bit more.
Right now we've got a long-term build that we're using to let the game develop a bit more.
RetroS
Smash Rookie
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An unexperienced player simply shouldn't be able to get close enough to beating a competitive player to feel this rush that you're talking about. Vanilla Brawl is, in fact, the only game I know of that has this even-ness that you speak of. Brawl games are always very close. This actually leads the loser to feel unlucky because he perhaps choked at the last moment.
Point is, if a member has ungauged potential, it wouldn't matter in your ideal game where players simply get beat all the time, because the game doesn't have enough depth for experienced players to be much greater than unexperienced players.
The characteristics a player has to have to keep playing after they get obliterated are what lead them to become competitive players. They are persistent and are willing to try to become the best at the game. If a player gives up after being defeated, they're not meant for the competitive scene.
I would like to know exactly what your definition of depth is.
D
Deleted member
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Depth has to do with the game and its potential. Not its players. And I said that newb shouldnt even come close to beating pros.
And what you say about persistence has ground, but I dont believe it to be completely true, as not all players will be persistent after being destroyed. Their drive can come from numerous reasons. Rivals. Ambition. Arrogance. Whatever it maybe.
I happen to know that my drive to persist and continue onward came from Rivalry. And even though I was consistently the winner, the fact I was player that was a goal of another player to beat, made me want to get better to continue winning and keep the drive of my Rival alive.
Persistence is one of those traits, I agree, but its not the only one and different scenarios have different effects. More often than normal, being completely obliterated by pros is not the catalyst the creates the willingness to continue playing and better yourself. IF anything, its the environment and the community that creates it. People hate to lose, so if you're losing constantly, your morale is being drained, and without proper encouragement and guidence, you will stop trying. :V
And what you say about persistence has ground, but I dont believe it to be completely true, as not all players will be persistent after being destroyed. Their drive can come from numerous reasons. Rivals. Ambition. Arrogance. Whatever it maybe.
I happen to know that my drive to persist and continue onward came from Rivalry. And even though I was consistently the winner, the fact I was player that was a goal of another player to beat, made me want to get better to continue winning and keep the drive of my Rival alive.
Persistence is one of those traits, I agree, but its not the only one and different scenarios have different effects. More often than normal, being completely obliterated by pros is not the catalyst the creates the willingness to continue playing and better yourself. IF anything, its the environment and the community that creates it. People hate to lose, so if you're losing constantly, your morale is being drained, and without proper encouragement and guidence, you will stop trying. :V
kupo15
Smash Hero
They didn't add it for depth, your right. They didn't add it as a "buff" persay. They added it so that it required more "skill" to combo with instead of being able to easily dair to usmash. They added something by their standards as being "an arbitrary tech barrier" "more clackiness" "adding more skill to Fox via requiring more buttons" yet this is the exact same reasoning why they don't want l canceling.
And even if it was partly to add "depth" to fox, they added what they consider not to be "depth" because they added a technique that adds "clackiness" and "why wouldn't you ever want to NOT JC the shine?" (sound familiar?)
GHK: To me it sounds like your direction for the game is geared so that the game helps the noobs out in a way that hurts competitive value. IMO, the game should be developed in a way to cater to the pros because if you base it off of "helping the noobs so they can enjoy it while playing against top pros" then you are hurting the matches between the pros by not making it hard enough and not rewarding more experienced players in a fair manor ect.
The "moral support" shouldn't come from the game, it should come from the players playing. If getting crushed makes you not want to play competitively, then don't play competitively and just for leisure and play against someone of equal skill that you have fun playing with. Don't "dumb the game down" so to speak in order to give casuals the moral drive to continue playing competitively. That is my take on it
shanus
Smash Hero
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- Nov 17, 2005
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- 6,055
Well, in this case, the button mashing you refer to led to more diverse options and thinking for fox. Everyone knew fox was so heavily reliant on his dair that it was his metagame.
nerfing the knockback on it, giving JC shine made his dair largely decentralized as it still had utility, but it was no longer the utilt dair spamming that it used to be.
Nair shine grew in use, dair shine, dair utilt (only realistically in reverse), etc...
The focus on it was not the action of the JC shine, but the more diverse gameplay it yielded. You are focusing on the wrong reason behind it. Does it add more technical skill to fox? Yes it does. But adding in the JC shine wasn't for the hell of it, it was to diversify his combo game which had spiraled down to dair utilt.
With that said, I do agree on some of your points regarding technical skill, I just wanted to clarify that the logic you used was flawed in that the main intention was not a technical barrier, but to decentralize his metagame.
Evilagram
Smash Journeyman
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- Oct 4, 2007
- Messages
- 420
I'm going to skip the current topic and continue on the Melee 2.0 trend.
I sought out brawl+ because I was a big fan of melee, same as many others here. One thing I like about this code agenda here is the way we can pick out certain codes that aren't integrated into the official build and use our own codesets. Couldn't it be possible for us to develop some melee 2.0 stuff on the side?
I, for one, really liked the tightness of melee, and while brawl+ reclaims some of that, it's still imprecise.
Lately everyone seems all paranoid about "Melee 2.0" stuff, but really, it's not such a bad thing. Hell, there's nothing saying that you need to use it at all. Why can't we just make some of these Melee 2.0 codes and stick them in as provisional over here, skipping them for the official build?
EDIT: Oh, and when can we see and perhaps try out some of the stuff listed in the code agenda as being scheduled for the next build?
I sought out brawl+ because I was a big fan of melee, same as many others here. One thing I like about this code agenda here is the way we can pick out certain codes that aren't integrated into the official build and use our own codesets. Couldn't it be possible for us to develop some melee 2.0 stuff on the side?
I, for one, really liked the tightness of melee, and while brawl+ reclaims some of that, it's still imprecise.
Lately everyone seems all paranoid about "Melee 2.0" stuff, but really, it's not such a bad thing. Hell, there's nothing saying that you need to use it at all. Why can't we just make some of these Melee 2.0 codes and stick them in as provisional over here, skipping them for the official build?
EDIT: Oh, and when can we see and perhaps try out some of the stuff listed in the code agenda as being scheduled for the next build?
[TSON]
Hella.
Well, I use it for tilts because I'm a tap jumper (everyone hates us lately... ): ) and Jigglypuff SHFF uair -> utilt is much easier for me that way, using only the cstick.. I wouldn't really care if it were just for dtilts but for utilts it'd suck hard if you got rid of it.
MK26
Smash Master
Uhhhhhh...reflecting stuff?
Or even when your opponent hits high percentages and gets that hard landing lag that allows you to combo a non-jc shine into usmash...
I'd like to clarify for you that as a developer who's in favor of making the dsmash change I'm not out to wreck your control scheme. I simply despise being unable to dsmash from a crouch, and am seeking a way to make this only affect the very specific situation where you are already crouching and hit the cstick down. I think it's a horrible oversight to have made the cstick function the way it does, since its function (by default as carried over from Melee anyhow) was to perform quick smash attacks, and the redundancy of only doing tilts while the control stick and cstick are pointing in the same vertical direction when there's already a perfectly good A button is absurd to me. In your case, I would hope the A button will suffice for you during crouching, as I similarly hope than any B-stick players can find similar usage of that button. But I feel like the bulk of players use the default mode and expect the cstick to be performing smash attacks, and they frankly got jipped on one of the most important facets of that.
MK26
Smash Master
But isnt the cstick merely a macro of "smash control stick" + a? You cant smash the stick in a direction if it's already going that direction, am i right? Presumably a fix would also allow one to perform a usmash if the control stick is already held up, or even allow an ftilt out of a run...
RetroS
Smash Rookie
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- Sep 26, 2009
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- 11
I've got to agree with this one; smash has always revolved around smashing the control stick... the c-stick is supposed to speed up your ability to smash + a, but wasn't meant to allow you to skip putting the analog stick in the neutral position. The way it is wasn't a "horrible oversight", it was what they did to incorporate the c-stick without changing the game mechanics.
kupo15
Smash Hero
What makes you so sure that this was the "programmers intent?" How do you know cstick wasn't meant to "skip the analog?"
The fact that you can do Usmash and Fsmash from a crouch but not dsmash is inconsistent which is bad and unpolished.
Thanks for the clarification. But I have to ask. If you justified this addition of a technique that "adds clackiness" and that "there is never a time where you wouldn't want to use it" in order to diversify a single character's metagame, then why can't you apply the same logic to justify adding in NADT and FF tumble? (although, there isn't one action that is the best to perform always)
What you found in diversifying combos of Fox will happen across the board to every character with the addition of this game mechanic. I see no reason not to add this except for the argument "we don't want it because" which isn't a good reason to not include something that, in actuality, is a positive addition to the game.
If you couple this with a lowering of hitstun, it will also make the game harder by putting more of an emphasis on zoning and predicting without 100% certainty. This will also make the game feel faster because you have to be engaged more often because strings are more challenging than true combos and you can also have control over your character quicker instead of a long wait.
It won't necessarily put more of an emphasis on strings but rather balance it out so Plus isn't so hitstun dominant. I think Plus could benefit from having more rock, paper, scissors moments in the combo game instead of only having to adjust to DI.
leafgreen386
Dirty camper
You give brawl's developers too much credit. Why would they program it like this when it acted differently in melee? Probably because it was easier for them. They didn't see it as a problem and left it as just a macro, instead of a new function. My evidence that it was implemented out of laziness and not intentionally:
If you're pressing a direction, you cannot SDI in that same direction the following frame (since it just considers you to be holding it). However, if you roll the stick upward or downward just ever so slightly so as to allow it to be read as a new position the following frame, it will perform an SDI in that direction, even though you never set the control stick back to neutral. The game can tell the difference between very slight changes of direction and it will interpret them as "smashes."
If you press the cstick in a direction, hold it there, and then try to move it to another direction without going back to neutral, it won't register the command (if they didn't bother to debug this then I'm quite sure that's evidence towards them just not caring).
And of course... if you're walking forward with the stick pressed fully forward, you can execute an fsmash with the cstick.
If they were really just trying to prevent you from doing something that should be technically impossible, then they clearly failed. Hence, I believe they were just too lazy to fix a problem in their coding. It certainly wouldn't be the first time in this game.