COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Teronist09]

New code:

Ignore Handicap [Y.S.] UNTESTED
04050550 38000000

Y.S made a fix to his Ignore Handicap code, please someone test it with the handicap = buffering code.

Edit: I'll test it and report back.

Edit 2: THE CODE WORKS!!! HANDICAP = BUFFERING IS NOW 100% WORKING!!!

Thank you SO much Y.S!

Ignore handicap code no work on wifi. Now I have to just play with the buffer code off

 

[kupo15]

But it wasn't like you could MC right away, correct?

In melee, you cancel it at the beginning and the window stays open from what I hear. In brawl, you have to wait around 10 frames before the window appears and stays out. I think we should make the timing at the beginning like melee but the window goes away after x frames

 

[leafgreen386]

In melee, you cancel it at the beginning and the window stays open from what I hear. In brawl, you have to wait around 10 frames before the window appears and stays out. I think we should make the timing at the beginning like melee but the window goes away after x frames

Pretty sure magus said that there was a timeframe before you could MC in melee, too, didn't he?

 

[kupo15]

right there is although that might be hitlag? Im not sure if there are frames in between hitlag and MC

Magus

It's a bit complicated.

1) Cancelable with mid-air jump(s) or up-b as early as frames 8+ of meteor knockback.

2) Using up-b at almost any time begins a no MC timer/window, where you can't MC with a jump or up-b at all for the next 40 frames. For example, if you're recovering and get meteored out of the startup of your up-b you won't be able to MC it until that timer has cleared.

3) Inputting a jump on frames 1-7 of meteor knockback prevents you from MCing with a jump for the next 40 frames (jumping at other times does not trigger it unlike the one caused by using up-b). If still available, you can MC with an up-b like normal during this period however. Using up-b on frames 1-7 counts as a jump and also triggers the no MC window using a double jump if the up input for the up-b is far enough to have caused a mid-air 'tap jump' with the control stick. If the stick isn't pressed far enough to do that when doing the up-b then a jump can still be used to MC, since only the no MC with up-b window is triggered.

4) Inputting an up-b during hitlag doesn't trigger the no MC window.

5) Extra freeze frames added from hitlag don't count towards the 40 frame no MC windows.

6) Auto-jumps on multi-jumps by holding a jump button (holding a jump input with Kirby/Jiggs after at least 1 mid-air jump has been used) does not use up your mid-air jump MC opportunity as long as it's pressed/held before frames 1-7, and since the auto-jump property of them will try to jump at the first possible opening to do one it MCs on frame 8. Holding jump when able to auto-jump, and then pressing up-b during frames 1-7 only prevents MCing with up-b for 40 frames, and doesn't prevent them from MCing with a jump. However, when not able to auto-jump (Kirby/Jiggs with all 5 jumps, or every other character), having a jump input held down when using up-b during 1-7 does trigger the no MC with jump window as well. (this whole part with auto-jumping is dumb imo, and those 2 characters can basically auto-MC by just holding up the whole time as long as they've jumped at least once and they start holding it before hitlag ends)

 

[leafgreen386]

Frames 1-7 he is referring to are of knockback. On the 8th frame of knockback you were able to MC.

 

[Rikana]

I'd be all for something like this:

0-25% -- 8 frame window
25-50% -- 6 frame window
50-75% -- 4 frame window
75-100% -- 2 frame window
100+% -- No MC

After now that I think of it, I think it should be a tight frame for maybe 75-100, but easy enough for 0-75 cause if you have different sets going for different frames, you'd have to memorize too much and know the timing of each.

You'd have to quickly look down at your percent then determine when to press it. I think that's a bit too much.

0-75 8 frames
75-100 2 frames
100+ no MC.

 

[CountKaiser]

Is anyone else getting a glitch with their no autojab where it doesn't allow you to charge up smashes any more? I was looking for the problem all night until I just took it off to find out that it was the code causing it.

I never had that problem. Are you using the one in the OP?

 

[kupo15]

He is using the very first version. The 1 liner instead of the 5/6 liner

 

[leafgreen386]

After now that I think of it, I think it should be a tight frame for maybe 75-100, but easy enough for 0-75 cause if you have different sets going for different frames, you'd have to memorize too much and know the timing of each.

You'd have to quickly look down at your percent then determine when to press it. I think that's a bit too much.

0-75 8 frames
75-100 2 frames
100+ no MC.

I've already explained why I think it's bad to use percentage as a judge for the new MC. It greatly reduces the worth of having a stronger spike since they all start killing at the same percent. The ability to MC should scale with launch speed, instead, using the weakest meteors as a base. So stronger meteors become spikes earlier, which I think only makes sense.

 

[CountKaiser]

I've already explained why I think it's bad to use percentage as a judge for the new MC. It greatly reduces the worth of having a stronger spike since they all start killing at the same percent. The ability to MC should scale with launch speed, instead, using the weakest meteors as a base. So stronger meteors become spikes earlier, which I think only makes sense.

I second this notion, if it means anything.

 

[Zodac]

i think you should leave it

 

[GPDP]

Alright, I've been testing the buffer handicap code, and I've noticed something disconcerting.

You know how the old buffer code used to make you crouch after fastfalls and turn around after bairs? Well, adjusting the buffer through handicap brings that back.

It seems to me the buffer without setting up handicap is set to 2 using the one line code system, however, as I do not turn around or crouch or anything like that.

Kupo, can you request that the adjustable buffer code work like the one line code rather than the old, what was it, 16 line code?

Edit: And by making it work like the one liner, I mean have the game only buffer button inputs and not directional inputs. At least, that's what I assume it does, while I believe the other code buffers both.

 

[izzy24]

I'm certain most G&W users will be mad (myself included) if you were to take away the auto-plummet of the dair.

If we could simply ask the people of the G&W boards what the think, this wouldn't be a problem, but apparently we can't do that for whatever reason.

Actually I think it would be used better in B+ as a finisher and it could also stop the multiple key spam (of course like all arials, u should also be able to also manually ff the dair)

 

[kupo15]

I informed YS

 

[goodoldganon]

Alright, I've been testing the buffer handicap code, and I've noticed something disconcerting.

You know how the old buffer code used to make you crouch after fastfalls and turn around after bairs? Well, adjusting the buffer through handicap brings that back.

It seems to me the buffer without setting up handicap is set to 2 using the one line code system, however, as I do not turn around or crouch or anything like that.

Kupo, can you request that the adjustable buffer code work like the one line code rather than the old, what was it, 16 line code?

Edit: And by making it work like the one liner, I mean have the game only buffer button inputs and not directional inputs. At least, that's what I assume it does, while I believe the other code buffers both.

That's unfortunate.

 

[Greenpoe]

Alright, I've been testing the buffer handicap code, and I've noticed something disconcerting.

You know how the old buffer code used to make you crouch after fastfalls and turn around after bairs? Well, adjusting the buffer through handicap brings that back.

It seems to me the buffer without setting up handicap is set to 2 using the one line code system, however, as I do not turn around or crouch or anything like that.

Kupo, can you request that the adjustable buffer code work like the one line code rather than the old, what was it, 16 line code?

Edit: And by making it work like the one liner, I mean have the game only buffer button inputs and not directional inputs. At least, that's what I assume it does, while I believe the other code buffers both.

By saying the new code buffers directional input, do you mean things like crouching, falling through a platform, dashing, tap-jumping, or fast falling?

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^It will not buffer falling through platforms, dashing, tap-jumping, or fast falling because those are all "tap" inputs, while the buffer system only recognizes "tilt" inputs when it comes to the control stick.

The things it will buffer are crouches and turn arounds.

 

[Magus420]

If the other 1 line code did only buffer button inputs and not directional input, wouldn't you often end up doing the wrong aerial if you buffered it with the c-stick? Like if you try to retreat double f-air and go to buffer the 2nd f-air, then it'd buffer just the A input then you'd end up doing a b-air instead since you're holding back when it performs the buffered A input?

I still don't see why buffered turnarounds and crouches were an issue before anyway if the code worked properly and the window was very small. Just stop holding backwards or down from what you were doing as you are about to land. Especially with the fastfall causing you to crouch when people had a 2 frame buffer...? Why are you still holding down after that much time and all the way into your landing? Just tap it and release. With the buffer at 2 you should only be crouching/turning after the landing if you continue to hold the direction during your landing lag (where holding the direction does nothing anyway). Would it be possible to have some of the handicap values after the others allow buffered turns and such with it for those that use it?

 

[kupo15]

Its something faulty in the code. It is possible to not crouch after a SHFFL with the 16 liner buffer but its actually difficult and you have to be really quick to perform it right. With the 1 liner buffer code, you don't crouch unless you make yourself crouch. There is a lot more error. Its weird but the 1 liner works better

 

[GPDP]

Plus, there's a chance modeling the code after the one liner could shorten the handicap code.

 

[Sky`]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

Please don't read this, and instantly get mad. I'm not coming in here to insult, but to gather information for future use.

Don't you guys think that you're being the epitome of Arrogant, when you come into a game, decide it's not good enough for competitive play, and change it declaring that you essentially 'are playing the better game'? And declaring things like Brawl + 'is the way that brawl was supposed to be made'? Like... you took a game with top level professional designers and what not that get paid millions of dollars to produce a video game... and it's like the Makers of Brawl + are having the audacity to say that they did a better job in the physics of Brawl than Sakurai did...? You... don't see anything wrong with that?

Furthermore, to continue my rant, I'll quote this from Smk: "The MAIN goal of the project is to make Brawl what makes Smash a competitive game." I don't know if you've went outside, but Brawl is a competitive game. Your definition of competitive is askew if you don't think so. Maybe you should amend that sentence, and change it to; "To make Brawl obtain more depth than it currently has", because your current goal for Brawl + is... somewhat elitist.

And my last thing that I wanna say, is... I constantly hear about new updates to Brawl +, and that it's not finished... and it might not ever be. That or it's going to take a very long time. "Not to say that the project is perfect at the moment (or for that matter will ever...) but it certainly looks like the game could be much better "balanced" than before thanks to the participation of the players that know the metagame moreso than the original developers (OK-ssuka)." Let me just revert back in my confusion for a quick moment, and reiterate that saying that you know the metagame more so than the ones who created the game in the first place seems to be out of place. That's the same thing as self diagnosing somebody if they are sick or mentally ill, and then they take that advice as if you were a doctor... Kinda lacking in modesty there, but anyway, my original point was the fact that this game doesn't seem to be even close to finishing (right?). How is this game getting a huge fanbase if it's constantly changing? Like, do these changes change the tier lists/metagames? I'm confused as to how a game that's constantly being 'updated' can be put into a tournament situation, you know?

These are just my thoughts. Though there was a disclaimer at the top, I'm fully prepared to get flamed, and be etched as a Brawl + Hater, even though it's not true. =/ However if you do flame, I'm fully aware of why you do. It seems that people mindlessly bash this game without having played it at all (And I actually have played it recently with some friends here) and I understand that with everybody always bashing at this game, getting defensive becomes second nature. (Spoke to GHNeko about that.) But take the time to read what I have to say, and answer accordingly before you assume that I'm coming in here, and just *****ing. And if I'm wrong or misinformed about something, don't call me ignorant, just correct me, because I'm actually eager to hear what you guys have to say.​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
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[Sky`]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

P.S.

I love all of you more than I love my children.

EDIT: And Equal to my Cat, Hershey. Who's quite fat, and fluffy, so that's a lot of love there.

And Edit II: Mods don't infract this double post because... If you do, I'll murder my dog. >_>​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
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​

 

[jokey665]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

words

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
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​

Sorry, I can't take anything you say seriously because your header/footer bullcrap is annoying. And quoting it is kind of funny, because of just how much crap there is for the colors.

 

[goodoldganon]

Sorry, I can't take anything you say seriously because your header/footer bullcrap is annoying. And quoting it is kind of funny, because of just how much crap there is for the colors.

Both relevant, necessary, and intelligent. Oh wait...

You make perfectly fine and legitimate points. The fact is many of us believe that Brawl was made to be a party game. Nothing more, nothing less. Which is fine. Brawl did a very good job making a party game. It is in my humble opinion that Brawl is competitive now because that's all their is. Many people are sick of Melee's 7 year reign and Brawl gave them something new. I have always thought the name 'Brawl+' had a little bit of elitism in it's name, but it never really bothered me.

All in all, I wouldn't say many people truly feel they are better game designers than the Brawl team, or at the very least they don't feel they are a team of bad developers. Just many of us don't like the direction they took Brawl. Melee and 64 were both competitive, deep, but also very casual and party friendly.

Hopefully that answers some of your questions. I don't want to absorb too much of this topic with this discussion, but we can let it go on for a few more posts if need be. If it gets into a more indepth discussion we can do PMs or something.

 

[Sky`]

Sorry, I can't take anything you say seriously because your header/footer bullcrap is annoying. And quoting it is kind of funny, because of just how much crap there is for the colors.

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

And... this is the intelligence that the Brawl + Community offers. Good Sh*t.

@Good: Despite how homosexual heterosexual my borders are, I'm indeed, a guy. Never heard? O_o

Best Peach in Nor-cal? Top 5 peaches in the nation? Nadda?​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

 

[Jiangjunizzy]

don't reply to sky, guys.

he feeds off your emotions hes like one of those things from harry potter

 

[Sky`]

Both relevant, necessary, and intelligent. Oh wait...

You make perfectly fine and legitimate points. The fact is many of us believe that Brawl was made to be a party game. Nothing more, nothing less. Which is fine. Brawl did a very good job making a party game. It is in my humble opinion that Brawl is competitive now because that's all their is. Many people are sick of Melee's 7 year reign and Brawl gave them something new.

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

That sir, was amazingly said.
Bravo, Many people do close the door to Brawl + because they were indoctrinated to believe that the only game out there worth playing was the mainstream game. And I'm an advocate of underground stuff.

Very good post. =]​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

 

[Sky`]

don't reply to sky, guys.

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

You live in San Jose...?
So have I seen you somewhere before? O_o​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

 

[Shell]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

Please don't read this, and instantly get mad. I'm not coming in here to insult, but to gather information for future use.

Don't you guys think that you're being the epitome of Arrogant, when you come into a game, decide it's not good enough for competitive play, and change it declaring that you essentially 'are playing the better game'? And declaring things like Brawl + 'is the way that brawl was supposed to be made'? Like... you took a game with top level professional designers and what not that get paid millions of dollars to produce a video game... and it's like the Makers of Brawl + are having the audacity to say that they did a better job in the physics of Brawl than Sakurai did...? You... don't see anything wrong with that?

Furthermore, to continue my rant, I'll quote this from Smk: "The MAIN goal of the project is to make Brawl what makes Smash a competitive game." I don't know if you've went outside, but Brawl is a competitive game. Your definition of competitive is askew if you don't think so. Maybe you should amend that sentence, and change it to; "To make Brawl obtain more depth than it currently has", because your current goal for Brawl + is... somewhat elitist.

And my last thing that I wanna say, is... I constantly hear about new updates to Brawl +, and that it's not finished... and it might not ever be. That or it's going to take a very long time. "Not to say that the project is perfect at the moment (or for that matter will ever...) but it certainly looks like the game could be much better "balanced" than before thanks to the participation of the players that know the metagame moreso than the original developers (OK-ssuka)." Let me just revert back in my confusion for a quick moment, and reiterate that saying that you know the metagame more so than the ones who created the game in the first place seems to be out of place. That's the same thing as self diagnosing somebody if they are sick or mentally ill, and then they take that advice as if you were a doctor... Kinda lacking in modesty there, but anyway, my original point was the fact that this game doesn't seem to be even close to finishing (right?). How is this game getting a huge fanbase if it's constantly changing? Like, do these changes change the tier lists/metagames? I'm confused as to how a game that's constantly being 'updated' can be put into a tournament situation, you know?

These are just my thoughts. Though there was a disclaimer at the top, I'm fully prepared to get flamed, and be etched as a Brawl + Hater, even though it's not true. =/ However if you do flame, I'm fully aware of why you do. It seems that people mindlessly bash this game without having played it at all (And I actually have played it recently with some friends here) and I understand that with everybody always bashing at this game, getting defensive becomes second nature. (Spoke to GHNeko about that.) But take the time to read what I have to say, and answer accordingly before you assume that I'm coming in here, and just *****ing. And if I'm wrong or misinformed about something, don't call me ignorant, just correct me, because I'm actually eager to hear what you guys have to say.​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

Pro-tip Sky`: If you don't want to make people mad, don't insult them. Calling Brawl+ players "Arrogant Elitists" isn't the way to get the neutral response you requested in the beginning of your post.

With that said, regardless of what game you think is better, there are three undeniable truths that we're working towards:

1) Brawl is a defensive game. Brawl+ balances offense with defense.

2) Brawl+ gives you more options than normal Brawl in most circumstances.

3) Brawl+ has more balanced characters, creating more tournament diversity.

You can debate whether these are good things or not -- I personally would have a hard time arguing that these aren't good for competition, but I guess that makes me an Arrogant Elitist.

You also have to remember that the developers were trying to make the game less focused on who wins or loses. Search around for interviews with Sakurai -- he was actually quite disappointed with how competitive Melee was, he wanted it to be more about the fun of playing the game. In this sense, we don't share the same goals as the developers, and thus can't really be compared to how well they fulfilled their goals.

Also, we're closer to completing this project than you realize. There will be a large tournament in May, and I'm fairly certain we'll be able to go gold by then. Almost all of our main mechanics are in place, we're just working character balance right now.

 

[Revven]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

Furthermore, to continue my rant, I'll quote this from Smk: "The MAIN goal of the project is to make Brawl what makes Smash a competitive game." I don't know if you've went outside, but Brawl is a competitive game. Your definition of competitive is askew if you don't think so. Maybe you should amend that sentence, and change it to; "To make Brawl obtain more depth than it currently has", because your current goal for Brawl + is... somewhat elitist.​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

Well when I said that by "competitive" I mean the competitive aspects of the past two games that give a more competitive feeling than what Brawl gives off. Brawl is competitive in the aspect of popularity but Melee is competitive in the aspect of depth and what have you (as with Smash 64). I guess what you said would be a better way of putting it though.

Don't feel like responding to the rest of that post though, kinda busy atm.

 

[jokey665]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

And... this is the intelligence that the Brawl + Community offers. Good Sh*t.​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

​

I don't actually play Brawl+. I use the Workshop for codes such as textures and replays and the like. I do read the Brawl+ threads though, as I try to read every thread on the boards I frequent.

 

[Sky`]

Pro-tip Sky`: If you don't want to make people mad, don't insult them. Calling Brawl+ players "Arrogant Elitists" isn't the way to get the neutral response you requested in the beginning of your post.

With that said, regardless of what game you think is better, there are three undeniable truths that we're working towards:

1) Brawl is a defensive game. Brawl+ balances offense with defense.

2) Brawl+ gives you more options than normal Brawl in most circumstances.

3) Brawl+ has more balanced characters, creating more tournament diversity.

You can debate whether these are good things or not -- I personally would have a hard time arguing that these aren't good for competition, but I guess that makes me an Arrogant Elitist.

You also have to remember that the developers were trying to make the game less focused on who wins or loses. Search around for interviews with Sakurai -- he was actually quite disappointed with how competitive Melee was, he wanted it to be more about the fun of playing the game. In this sense, we don't share the same goals as the developers, and thus can't really be compared to how well they fulfilled their goals.

Also, we're closer to completing this project than you realize. There will be a large tournament in May, and I'm fairly certain we'll be able to go gold by then. Almost all of our main mechanics are in place, we're just working character balance right now.

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

Thanks. ^_^, Usually these posts open my eyes more to Brawl +.

I just get so confused with the 'goal' in question of brawl plus, ya dig?

And, when Brawl + Is completed... Does that mean that there will be absolutely no more updates for years to come? Or is the game going to be like, frequently updated n such?

​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

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[Shell]

Brawl+ will still be updated. As the metagame develops, the balance between characters that we're working to establish right now may shift -- this is in many ways a new game. Subtle tweaks may be necessary to put things back into alignment every couple months to half a year. Who knows.

 

[goodoldganon]

I'll let this discussion go on for a few more posts then I have to ask that we stop. This is a code agenda. We can discuss this in another topic, or if all your questions are answered we can go on our way.

To answer the update question, unless there is some unforseen broken character or strategy (something like planking) then the final release should be relatively permanent.

 

[Sky`]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

Oh nah, actually I've got all I need about this discussion, thank you. It can end here if you'd like. =]

I'm going to do a case study on Brawl +.

I'll go ahead and download it, (Though... Kinda... don't know how to... mod anything...) and practice up for that tournament that's in May.

See some of you guys there. =]​

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

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[Zelc]

@Sky`:
There are two lines of responses: designers are not infallible and games often need to be patched, and competitive games are often modified by people not affiliated with the company.

Let's look at Starcraft, arguably the epitome of competitive games. Starcraft has changed significantly over the 10 years. On the first point, Starcraft has been patched many times over the past 10 years, often with dramatic results on game balance and strategies. I'd say Blizzard is far better at designing competitive games than Sakurai/Nintendo, and they made tons of mistakes they had to patch. The Brawl+ people are simply patching a game that has flaws, since Nintendo can't really do that.

The second and more compelling point is Starcraft is also significantly changed by people who are not affiliated with Blizzard. These people do not change unit statistics or anything like that, but they are the people who design maps to be used in competitive games (the ones made by Blizzard are mostly terrible). This is more important than you think. Right now, the 3 races in Starcraft are balanced such that any intrinsic between-race imbalances are dwarfed by map-specific between-race imbalances. Additionally, maps can significantly change the effectiveness of strategies. Thus, maps have as much effect on strategies and gameplay in Starcraft as the unit statistics. The people who design the maps are independent mapmakers who do this for fun, and the people who choose the maps are the competitive players and the organization that runs the games.

This doesn't even address games like DOTA, which are entirely fan-made.

 

[shanus]

Sky can you stop posting in the centered formatting. I want to read your posts, but its honestly way too distracting to try and read paragraphs that way.

 

[GHNeko]

You know Sky, it'd be alot easier to join the B+ IRC/Chatroom and ask these questions rather than posting in here of all places. >_>

 

[Dan_X]

Sky can you stop posting in the centered formatting. I want to read your posts, but its honestly way too distracting to try and read paragraphs that way.

So true...

 

[kupo15]

Cultivate your hunger before you Idealise

Furthermore, to continue my rant, I'll quote this from Smk: "The MAIN goal of the project is to make Brawl what makes Smash a competitive game." I don't know if you've went outside, but Brawl is a competitive game. Your definition of competitive is askew if you don't think so. Maybe you should amend that sentence, and change it to; "To make Brawl obtain more depth than it currently has", because your current goal for Brawl + is... somewhat elitist.

Motivate your anger, and make them all realise...
​

I just wanted to point out that you can make anything competitive and when I mean anything, I mean that counting the clouds can be very competitive but I'm sure you would agree that the competitive value in counting clouds doesn't match that of rock, paper, scissors. Furthermore, I could take the game of rock, paper, scissors and compare that to my new game, the sequel called rock, paper, scissors, llama. The llama beats the other three options all the time and a roll of the dice determines the winner in a llama tie. Would you argue that the sequel is more competitive than the original and would you be content in playing the sequel with its competitive value instead of changing the rules a little bit to make it more competitive? This is how we view it. We don't doubt that Brawl is a competitive game but that brawl+ has more competitive value than vbrawl and its because we are adding back the mechanics taken out that made this game work competitively in the first place.