COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[VietGeek]

New Plussery 4.0 beta.

And Jigglypuff got a rest buff because the move had no purpose in Brawl+ At how high of damage you needed, you should have been able to WOP them off the stage ten times over.

I see Shanus switched to MediaFire so I lost my old link to his B+ betas.

Yay for Jiggs.

 

[CloneHat]

How is Fox boring? He runs around randomly firing off lasers, and drilling into basically any attack you want. He's probably got the most lol playstyle in the game!

 

[abcool]

And it's 'garbage' because you might run off the stage while doing it? Then don't run off the stage; learn where the momentum takes you?



Codes or it didn't happen.



Aside from priority issues, his move mechanics did not have significant changes from Melee to Brawl, so adding global hitstun really just made him more usable.



People will add it to their "metagame" (pretty sure we're not using the word right here) if it's effective. Almost all intermediate and high-level Melee Foxes used some form of retreating laser(s). There are more Foxes than just M2K/KDJ/Ken/PC Chris/Chillin, etc.



At this point it's best to create a standardized codeset. More codes that are on the fence won't help achieve that cause. But I'm fine on whether or not anyone makes the code.

So...let's see...

The reason you want this is -

1. Brawl+ Fox is 'boring' to you.
2. Momentum makes it harder to retreat
3. Brawl+ Fox is 'boring' to you.

The rest of this wall is about apparently most people sucking at Fox and only a select few could retreat lasers, why one remark about Melee makes you think I am calling you out (lol defensive), and assuming I can imply why Fox's retreat game is garbage prior to this post BECAUSE I CAN LEIK TOTALLY READ UR MINDZ AND KNOW WHEN YOU EDIT YOUR POSTS.



And this is why I am asking. You have given me two reasons so far. I believe you are also the only Fox user at the moment to request this in particular. I have no problem with the actual request, I need reasons though.

I feel it may unnecessarily make good characters better. This is a project to make Brawl "more competitive" (and I use this loosely). The "fun" comes from balancing out the game and adding mechanics where necessary. It doesn't matter if it's 'hard', if it's good people will learn it, apply, w/e. How difficult it is to do something should not be justification to add something since it's humanly possible in the first place.

So if there's more reasons you would like to give please do. And don't make me have to make assumptions, be clear. Otherwise I'm going to have to flamebait you or something to get the information I need to even make this coherent in my mind (and I don't have time for Internet drama over something silly as this so let's communicate clearly and keep this civil).

First off i'm on a wii, so i can't get all into it. honestly laser camping was something i hardly use in melee. waveshine to grab to uair or waveshine to usmash is better. I want it back because Most of foxes spacing options are gone. i was put into alot if situations where i could have won if my lasers had di..metaknight, peach, ike(air spamming ones) i wanna full hop and laser not retreat laser...it's already not effective because the stages are to small not to mention, i can just jump backwards and get the same effect anyway, but the game buffers my lasers in the opposite direction. overall i rather have it simplified for me to get the bacwards trajectory during laser animation...another reason the move can't be OP is because of the risk/reward factor...i mite illusion of the stage if i don't let go of the direction i am di'ing in...a stock lost at the cost 6% damage. that seems fair rite...but anyway. i know kupo nor jiang got a problem so i am no longer gonna spam up the thread. i am done fighting for something you keep thinking op

 

[Gennie]

Seeing as some people say that some stages are too small.. which i think is rather that the characters are a little bigger... what is the possibility of a global size modifier for every character and hitboxes to make them a little little little less bigger? or would that be too game breaking? I'm talking about to reduce them like to 90% of their size or something like that.. but I guess is not really necessary and it may cause trouble

Is just an idea tho

 

[abcool]

Seeing as some people say that some stages are too small.. which i think is rather that the characters are a little bigger... what is the possibility of a global size modifier for every character and hitboxes to make them a little little little less bigger? or would that be too game breaking? I'm talking about to reduce them like to 90% of their size or something like that.. but I guess is not really necessary and it may cause trouble

Is just an idea tho

Well dude idk where u have been but we made that code already. it didn't scale down B moves so we are trying to make stages bigger.

 

[Gennie]

Well dude idk where u have been but we made that code already. it didn't scale down B moves so we are trying to make stages bigger.

Oh xD sorry, I didnt knew that, but it would be great if we could make some stages bigger, but it sounds kinda harder

 

[Sanu]

What the hell do you guys mean by DI-able lasers? I've play Melee competitively for two years and I have no idea what you're all talking about <_<;

 

[Revven]

Y.S already made a code that changed the size of Summit, it's possible only to change a FEW stages' sizes like Corneria for example. Y.S had some pictures on his photobucket of some stages we could change to make bigger/smaller but, the code for any of the stages is not made (except Summit).

 

[VietGeek]

What the hell do you guys mean by DI-able lasers? I've play Melee competitively for two years and I have no idea what you're all talking about <_<;

See retreating Fox SHDL. That's what we mean really.

 

[kupo15]

What the hell do you guys mean by DI-able lasers? I've play Melee competitively for two years and I have no idea what you're all talking about <_<;

Pick wolf, do a standing jump laser and move left right. Fox and falco can't do that

 

[abcool]

See retreating Fox SHDL. That's what we mean really.

Not to start this again. but that isn't di with lasers it is retreat lasers. i use that already. di with lasers is when i full hop fire 3 lasers and slighly di backwards to spacing myself from getting a dashing upsmash or dc fsmash to the face...but everyone use shdl it's the basics for any fox

 

[kupo15]

@VietGeek: Just to clarify, DIable lasers won't mean that laser control is dummy proof. He is still fighting momentum so a nub can still fall off the stage.

 

[SketchHurricane]

Just to bring it back up, the 'tap mod' for footstools/power shielding is probably the best solution to those issues I've seen yet (props to Greenpoe for the idea and Kupo for the assist). It completely solves the problem of 'accidental' footstool/PS by making it a discernible input.

If your in footstool range and don't want to, just hold jump instead of tap.

If you want to PS, tap instead of hold. The risk/reward is balanced by the fact that you might get hit during the shield dropping (lol shield droppings)

 

[GHNeko]

Just to bring it back up, the 'tap mod' for footstools/power shielding is probably the best solution to those issues I've seen yet (props to Greenpoe for the idea and Kupo for the assist). It completely solves the problem of 'accidental' footstool/PS by making it a discernible input.

If your in footstool range and don't want to, just hold jump instead of tap.

If you want to PS, tap instead of hold. The risk/reward is balanced by the fact that you might get hit during the shield dropping (lol shield droppings)

But wouldnt the fact that the shoulder buttons are spring based, and that the game only picks up button inputs since its not pressure sensitive make it really hard to powershiled based on taps?

 

[kupo15]

Just to bring it back up, the 'tap mod' for footstools/power shielding is probably the best solution to those issues I've seen yet (props to Greenpoe for the idea and Kupo for the assist). It completely solves the problem of 'accidental' footstool/PS by making it a discernible input.

If your in footstool range and don't want to, just hold jump instead of tap.

If you want to PS, tap instead of hold. The risk/reward is balanced by the fact that you might get hit during the shield dropping (lol shield droppings)

Wait, does that seriously work the same way as the FF on the cstick? If I hold the up button, I won't footstool if I tap x(y)??

 

[CyberGlitch]

Don't forget to have the perfected camera on the codes to do list.

We still need a knockback modifier for projectiles.

Stage size/boundery modifier


These are three codes that should be on the to do list.

Fox and Falco don't need DI able lasers, seriously.

 

[CountKaiser]

G&W doesn't need less lag on his fair, but you wanted it, anyway. >_>

They really should get it. After all, we gave Falcon a few buffs that he certainly didn't need, in the pursuit of fairness, I assume. Fox and Falco should have DIable lasers just like wolf.

 

[Sanu]

See retreating Fox SHDL. That's what we mean really.

Oh. So you guys want to take that out then? Why? o.o Fox and Falco get easily gimped by the majority of the cast (if you're doing it right). Hell, if Marth forward throws either of them off the edge, he can run off with a fair to *any aerial* for the easy kill at low percents. It's sort of sad. Taking away one of their advantages seems kind of silly XD

 

[Revven]

Oh. So you guys want to take that out then? Why? o.o Fox and Falco get easily gimped by the majority of the cast (if you're doing it right). Taking away one of their advantages seems kind of silly XD

No no no, it's always been gone since Brawl came out in the first place. abcool WANTS the DIable lasers, we're not removing anything lol.

 

[Sanu]

No no no, it's always been gone since Brawl came out in the first place. abcool WANTS the DIable lasers, we're not removing anything lol.

Oh? But I've been using Fox in the newest version of Brawl+ and he definitely has "DI-able lasers" (Reverse SHDL + momentum) available to him as a technique o_o... unless I'm still confused as to what the term "DI-able lasers" is referring to?

 

[kupo15]

Oh? But I've been using Fox in the newest version of Brawl+ and he definitely has "DI-able lasers" (Reverse SHDL + momentum) available to him as a technique o_o... unless I'm still confused as to what the term "DI-able lasers" is referring to?

Try changing your direction while in the air. Do retreating lasers, then move forward while still in the air. You can't do it. He wants the lasers to act like the reverse falcon punch, not the normal punch.

 

[Sanu]

Try changing your direction while in the air. Do retreating lasers, then move forward while still in the air. You can't do it. He wants the lasers to act like the reverse falcon punch, not the normal punch.

Huh. I'm still lost. Are you saying that momentum doesn't transfer when you're doing your retreating lasers? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Sorry, you guys are being quite vague

 

[kupo15]

Huh. I'm still lost. Are you saying that momentum doesn't transfer when you're doing your retreating lasers? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Sorry, you guys are being quite vague

If you still don't understand, I can't help you.

Oh and lol at falcon getting buffs he doesn't need when I see the buffs given to the other characters something to be more afraid about. Just look at bowser for example. He's been buffed to oblivion

 

[leafgreen386]

Huh. I'm still lost. Are you saying that momentum doesn't transfer when you're doing your retreating lasers? Because I'm pretty sure it does. Sorry, you guys are being quite vague

Jump straight in the air. When you're airborne, begin holding left or right. You'll move. You can't do this while you're in the laser animation, and that is what we want to change.

 

[Sanu]

Jump straight in the air. When you're airborne, begin holding left or right. You'll move. You can't do this while you're in the laser animation, and that is what we want to change.

Oh, that makes perfect sense. Thanks ^_^! Honestly though, I don't see why this would be an issue. I'd assume it would help with their ability to RSHDL with less chance of inadvertently falling off the stage or approaching the opponent with extra spacing control. I can see how it would be useful, but it's also something the player could easily work around.

In summary: It will give the spacie player more of a feeling that they are in complete control of their character (while lasering).

It's a good thing for the spacies, but it could easily be done without. The question is, do those two characters really need a laser-spacing buff? Other than the super easy gimps on them, I think they're already broken... but they do feel sort of clunky and not in the player's complete control when you're lasering with them. Eh, I'm not sure.

 

[abcool]

Oh, that makes perfect sense. Thanks ^_^! Honestly though, I don't see why this would be an issue. I'd assume it would help with their ability to RSHDL with less chance of inadvertently falling off the stage or approaching the opponent with extra spacing control. I can see how it would be useful, but it's also something the player could easily work around.

In summary: It will give the spacie player more of a feeling that they are in complete control of their character (while lasering).

It's a good thing for the spacies, but it could easily be done without. The question is, do those two characters really need a laser-spacing buff? Other than the super easy gimps on them, I think they're already broken... but they do feel sort of clunky and not in the players complete control when you're lasering with them. Eh, I'm not sure.

I'll admit fox is quite broken with the Dair to anything,( If ur playing a noob) i actually wouldn't mind some lag on it, so it's not all spammy. That seems to be the problem with fox to me, in n64 anything was possible not EVERYTHING was dair to utilt, it's annoying to watch and also to use, but when ur fighting a good player it's all i have to use to give some damage. I feel like a noob when i use fox and a person like me that likes to look pretty and entertain the crowd >.> Fox is definately not a character i would love to use in that circumstance. Besides it, i mean look at most fox vids..dair utilt. *comment* Wow Fox is amazing...my thought wtf! spamfest. Watchs a n64 vid..ground canceled shine, dair utilt( not 100 times over) bair to bair edgehog. that is fox.

 

[Sanu]

Edit: Ignore this post, lol.

 

[CyberGlitch]

G&W doesn't need less lag on his fair, but you wanted it, anyway. >_>

They really should get it. After all, we gave Falcon a few buffs that he certainly didn't need, in the pursuit of fairness, I assume. Fox and Falco should have DIable lasers just like wolf.

I was a G&W main with Melee. His Fair holds nostalgic value for me, I don't see why his Fair shouldn't get the same lag reduction almost all other air attacks got. Above G&W, I was a Fox main (have been since the 64 days).

Fox is different from the other characters with projectiles in that he has insane speed. Add DIable lasers to this and you are just asking him to run and camp. In Brawl+ it is much easier to run avoid people with this kind of defensive, grueling playstyle thanks to the way it's airdodge works.

Falco is not as fast, but his projectiles are some of the most effective in the game, give him DI to encourage camping around with these projectiles and you <i>will</i> break several matchups he has with other characters.


If you want to enhance these character's playstyles, make the shine moves come out slightly quicker or something.

 

[kupo15]

We can still add reflectiveness to powershields which would minimize camping

 

[CyberGlitch]

But we are talking very fast shooting projectiles here.

Reflecting Fox's projectiles is useless on all but tool assisted games. Falco's blasters are a bit slower and more predictable, but still a problem.

As far as I'm concerned, the moves should not be given too much freedom to promote a run and peck playstyle. The projectiles should be used to interupt approaches, and pressure opponents to come to you.

 

[abcool]

I was a G&W main with Melee. His Fair holds nostalgic value for me, I don't see why his Fair shouldn't get the same lag reduction almost all other air attacks got. Above G&W, I was a Fox main (have been since the 64 days).

Fox is different from the other characters with projectiles in that he has insane speed. Add DIable lasers to this and you are just asking him to run and camp. In Brawl+ it is much easier to run avoid people with this kind of defensive, grueling playstyle thanks to the way it's airdodge works.

Falco is not as fast, but his projectiles are some of the most effective in the game, give him DI to encourage camping around with these projectiles and you <i>will</i> break several matchups he has with other characters.


If you want to enhance these character's playstyles, make the shine moves come out slightly quicker or something.

What you don't take into consideration is the fact that to utilize running away and lasering it comes with a price, Senario: I am fox the stage is already small, Diable lasers is a situational AT it's only for character fox will have problems approaching, trying to run away and lasering is already an option, trying to do that and di while lasering can cause me to illusion off of the stage....only a true fox main would bring up the negative effect of this move and not just the positive aspects, it'll be useful in matches such as jiggs or peach, i won't need it for ppl like falcon and even if i do it'll only take effect during the times he is spacing to knee the crap out of me during an aerial(without setting me up first which no real falcon main would do) so come with another negative to this, because as far as i can see, doing this on platform stages is a even bigger risk.

 

[cobaltblue]

If you still don't understand, I can't help you.

Oh and lol at falcon getting buffs he doesn't need when I see the buffs given to the other characters something to be more afraid about. Just look at bowser for example. He's been buffed to oblivion

But bowser needed those buffs just to be somewhat viable. Buffs for the space animals are just sprinkles on an already very good cake. A cake that could cause a heart attack for some other character >_>.

Anyways I don't main them nor play good space animal players but I feel their lassers are like the shotos's fireballs from street fighter. Each different but comes with its own ups and downs. Although I can't see this change breaking that but it is one step closer to making everyone similar.

 

[abcool]

I wanna break this down for everyone thinking this has something to do with retreat lasers...It has nothing to do with shdl...only on a minor level it helps control the distance i go flying (because of momentum a mechanic WE by the way put in and not the programmers). This has to do with FULL HOPPING and triple lasering. When fighting a jiggs or metaknight who likes to approach with aerials fox is forced to run and hide. I can't triple laser if someone is coming at him because i'll get hit, with Di i slightly move backwwards in my FULL HOP which only fires 3 shots and you'll only get hit by 1-2 the most. You said i'll inspire camping, how can i do that, because if done on platform stages someone will mistime pressing the b button and holding backwards then the minute they land on a platform BAM!! illusion and a whole stock wasted.
Wait wait i smell risk/reward isn't that written in bold letters in the front page of competitve aspects in a fighting game. Like i said come at me man i can go at it all day.
edit: btw! i also was gonna ask for fox's dair to have more landing lag and his utilt to have more KB, how am i making him broken..he is just spammy and boring.

 

[Rudra]

How does adding DI'able Lasers break Fox? Abcool already stated that its a situational tactic that's mostly for aerial characters and it does add more control to his lasers. Its an optional technique that doesnt centralize or overpower Fox's game in any way (like his Waveshine could have in Melee if I'm not mistaken).

Isnt Brawl+ about adding options and reviving certain physics from previous Smash titles? Why not add something that Fox previously had (and some of the Brawl cast already have) and test it to see if it DOES break anything (which is unlikely) before pushing it aside?

 

[kupo15]

This^^

As far as I'm concerned, the moves should not be given too much freedom to promote a run and peck playstyle. The projectiles should be used to interupt approaches, and pressure opponents to come to you.

Why shouldn't they? Fox IS the best camper in the game. Why would you want to change this unique feature about him? Why can Mario DI his fireballs but not Fox or falco? I find that Mario's fireballs are a more effective defensive option than Fox's lasers anyway. Fox's lasers are a different type of camping. When you reflect mario fireballs, it doesn't really do much because of the range cap but reflecting falco's lasers will actually shut down his laser spamming. Stages are also small enough where camping shouldn't be a problem anyway.

I really don't see why you have a problem giving fox and falco this. Their lasers are practically broken the same way the rest is in a way.

But bowser needed those buffs just to be somewhat viable. Buffs for the space animals are just sprinkles on an already very good cake. A cake that could cause a heart attack for some other character >_>.

I understand Bowser needed some buffs to get on the same level as Falcon who became viable not because of char spec buffs, but global ones, but Bowser right now is both a tank AND and powerhouse and is buffed beyond viable more than Falcon is. Also, if you see whats being posted in gog's thread and what is being considered, I hope you would rethink your judgment on Falcon buffs. Just look at all the reworking planned for Samus and Ivy and everyone else!! I don't necessarily have a problem with these buffs but the other characters are being buffed past falcon that if this community maintains its level of bias against giving falcon some buffs, he won't even be a threat.

 

[Sanu]

How does adding DI'able Lasers break Fox? Abcool already stated that its a situational tactic that's mostly for aerial characters and it does add more control to his lasers. Its an optional technique that doesnt centralize or overpower Fox's game in any way (like his Waveshine could have in Melee if I'm not mistaken).

Isnt Brawl+ about adding options and reviving certain physics from previous Smash titles? Why not add something that Fox previously had (and some of the Brawl cast already have) and test it to see if it DOES break anything (which is unlikely) before pushing it aside?

Sanuzi likes Rudra's post.

 

[VietGeek]

While the focus is Fox, I would probably assume it would be more of a threat in the hands of Falco currently, or at least until we cap Falco's lasers.

With Fox it makes it continue to be an even better camper, now being able to have more flexibility on his lasers, which invoke an approach, which Fox is pretty good at punishing. The focus shifted to him because the user that requested it is a Fox main. We probably should've at a wider range, since this is going to be applied to both Fox and Falco.

With Falco I probably could see his approaches being better AND his camping. But I guess we have to see.

@ Rudra - No it wouldn't break him (just because someone said I said it's OP doesn't necessarily reflect the truth; on the Internet people have different perceptions on what words carry what connotations. I don't even recall how many people call others scrubs on Youtube and not know they're using it completely incorrectly).

However, it is buffing someone who "doesn't need it." This is pretty much the phrase they would use for characters like TL, Falco, Marth, etc., who could get some stuff, or a few small buffs to moves, but are dismissed because they're already "good enough" (and they are good enough).

 

[abcool]

While the focus is Fox, I would probably assume it would be more of a threat in the hands of Falco currently, or at least until we cap Falco's lasers.

With Fox it makes it continue to be an even better camper, now being able to have more flexibility on his lasers, which invoke an approach, which Fox is pretty good at punishing. The focus shifted to him because the user that requested it is a Fox main. We probably should've at a wider range, since this is going to be applied to both Fox and Falco.

With Falco I probably could see his approaches being better AND his camping. But I guess we have to see.

@ Rudra - No it wouldn't break him (just because someone said I said it's OP doesn't necessarily reflect the truth; on the Internet people have different perceptions on what words carry what connotations. I don't even recall how many people call others scrubs on Youtube and not know they're using it completely incorrectly).

However, it is buffing someone who "doesn't need it." This is pretty much the phrase they would use for characters like TL, Falco, Marth, etc., who could get some stuff, or a few small buffs to moves, but are dismissed because they're already "good enough" (and they are good enough).

Well to be honest falco is gonna benefit more from SHl than Diable lasers, but his lasers can be avoided. You gotta remember lasers don't kill, smash attacks do, idk what stage ya'll think diable lasers is viable on, i only seeing FD, maybe smashville, but platform stages would be a counter pick to them imo.

 

[Rudra]

While the focus is Fox, I would probably assume it would be more of a threat in the hands of Falco currently, or at least until we cap Falco's lasers.

About that: What was the reasoning behind Falco's laser cap? From a distance, couldnt one Spot Dodge/PS (especially should we get a reflecting property attached to it)/SHAD to avoid them? Also, what would be the ideal range for this cap to cut his lasers off at?

However, it is buffing someone who "doesn't need it." This is pretty much the phrase they would use for characters like TL, Falco, Marth, etc., who could get some stuff, or a few small buffs to moves, but are dismissed because they're already "good enough" (and they are good enough).

Since when is adding some control to a move that should have been controlable to begin with a buff? Also, I wouldnt exactly consider this a small buff to Fox's game, though it isnt a large one either since it isnt a staple. I believe that it's more of a midground if anything...

I do admit though, that I am very curious as to how it could affect Falco's game. Time will tell I suppose...

 

[CountKaiser]

I was a G&W main with Melee. His Fair holds nostalgic value for me, I don't see why his Fair shouldn't get the same lag reduction almost all other air attacks got.

Shiek's fair holds nostalgic value for the people that want it, but we are reluctant to give it a buff, lest shiek become OP.

G&W's fair is a disjointed, powerful sex kick. According to how you want to use it, you wish to use it as an approach. That, to me, seems a bit OP, as the case is ridiculous.

I guess 50% for the case can be tested, so we can see once and for all if it is OP. If it is, we can always put it back.

If a code comes along that gets rid of auto-fastfall aerials, then try to apply it to G&W's key. In exchange, I wish for the entire hitbox to be a meteor, or a good part of it.