COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Rkey]

Mugen? What does that have to do with anything?

G&W's Dsmash is kinda like Meta Knight's, but STRONGER and has MORE RANGE. A small buff would be nice, in my opinion.

I'm talking about anyone being able to add any character they want. Hell, we might as well unlock master hand if we continue doing this. That's just what I'm afraid of.

And by buff, you meant nerf I hope.

A general accepted rule we have in the WBR is that for any character balances that we intend to go forward with, we should place our focus on only the characters we assume to be at the bottom half of the echelon, or any character not currently presumed to be in a high tier status. This ensures we focus on the characters currently in need of tweaks, while preventing otherwise uneducated or accidental tier modifications to those who are currently perfectly fine. This of course has come in to exception with two characters; Snake and Meta Knight.

We have no intention of modifying any character at high tier or higher unless they meet one of the following criteria:

1) They are proven to be over powered in comparison to the majority of the cast.

2) They distort specific character match ups.


This is not to say we will have no intention of modifying other characters higher on the tier list later on possibly, but for now it isn't in our best interest where maintaining balance is concerned.


That said, G&W is fine as it is right now. Unless you were to argue G&W was not at least high tier, he likely wouldn't change at all.

Thank you for the information, I'm less scared now. I mean, I'm ALL FOR BRAWL+, but I also really want it to be a good game. Sometimes it feels like it's slipping, in the sense we feel like God and balance EVERYTHING. I mean, there should still be certain matchups and certain moves that are better than other and some characters doing better than others but still having counterpicks. If the game is PERFECTLY balanced, it's boring. I mean, if every matchup was 50:50 and all the moves were equally good, that would suck big time.


Edit:

I like this. Its a shame that the real Giga couldnt be shrunk and have his invnicibility frames removed (impossible because of no hitstun/tumble animations right?). Then again, with a little texture hacking...I guess he could look like him. =3


I second this (<3 Giga), but for now there are more important stuff to deal with.

Well, can't you just use boozers moveset and put it on giga-boozers model? Same way we add ganon's moveset to pikachu's model to create manchu.

Unsure about the words, hope you understand what I'm saying.

 

[CountKaiser]

Actually Kaiser I have been arguing about the winddown on all of GW's smashes for months.

Everyone else keeps telling me they are fine and he doesnt need that nerf

I would like to see more of a community opinion on it though.

I'd say add winddown lag to dsmash and fsmash. Both are too spammable for how powerful they are.

Usmash is fine because it is easy to see coming and takes a bit for it to hit. Honestly, adding winddown to this would be a waste of space as it is hardly ever a good idea to spam usmash.

 

[storm92]

I'd say add winddown lag to dsmash and fsmash. Both are too spammable for how powerful they are.

Usmash is fine because it is easy to see coming and takes a bit for it to hit. Honestly, adding winddown to this would be a waste of space as it is hardly ever a good idea to spam usmash.

Agreed, Dsmash and Fsmash would be much better with winddown lag.
And also on two counts with the Usmash thing, it's too slow to be spammed.

 

[Ulevo]

I think gaw does need some for of a nerf, saying he dies early and kills early doesnt cut it imo. He is like meta but more powerful, he is small, can combo and can kill at rediculous percents. He has a great recovery and also can gimp. more lag on certain smashes is not a bad idea.

And exactly how do these qualities constitute the need for an alteration of his character?

Words like "powerful", "small", "ridiculous percents" can be thrown in to describe a multitude of characters. You have to appropriately state why his character is a threat to the balance of the rest of the cast in order for your words to hold any value on why he needs to be changed.

G&W, Meta Knight, Snake, or any other character can be as ludicrous as one interprets; as long as the other characters are among the same league, it's irrelevant.

 

[Rudra]

Well, can't you just use boozers moveset and put it on giga-boozers model? Same way we add ganon's moveset to pikachu's model to create manchu.

Unsure about the words, hope you understand what I'm saying.

I =think= I get what you're saying, especially with your thoughts about B+ being Mugen. (though in your example, he'd still be huge and invincible lol) I'm not saying it'd be something necessary for Bowser, but it something I do find it quite entertaining for personal things and friendlies. I probably should have said that earlier ^^;

 

[kupo15]

A general accepted rule we have in the WBR is that for any character balances that we intend to go forward with, we should place our focus on only the characters we assume to be at the bottom half of the echelon, or any character not currently presumed to be in a high tier status. This ensures we focus on the characters currently in need of tweaks, while preventing otherwise uneducated or accidental tier modifications to those who are currently perfectly fine. This of course has come in to exception with two characters; Snake and Meta Knight.

We have no intention of modifying any character at high tier or higher unless they meet one of the following criteria:

1) They are proven to be over powered in comparison to the majority of the cast.

2) They distort specific character match ups.


This is not to say we will have no intention of modifying other characters higher on the tier list later on possibly, but for now it isn't in our best interest where maintaining balance is concerned.


That said, G&W is fine as it is right now. Unless you were to argue G&W was not at least high tier, he likely wouldn't change at all.

But Ulevo, its not always black and white. We can't just ignore the moves that are just under or over the limit of where they would receive attention and call them "fine." I believe GaWs dsmash and fsmash are moves near the breaking point and should not be dismissed as "fine" just because they don't (maybe they do?) fall under the category that you stated.

 

[alvicala]

Ive got another issue id like to report.

Sometimes when I want to do a tether recovery with the grab button the character (for example Tink) airdodges instead of using the hookshot to grab onto the ledge.
I mean, I press the GRAB button but its like if the SHIELD button was pressed since the character airdodges instead of shooting the hookshot.

I dont know what actually causes this. Maybe it occurs randomly or maybe I am doing something wrong (I repeat: I press the GRAB button not the SHIELD button).

 

[Revven]

The Z button acts as several different buttons, not just grabbing. If you press R and A you get the same effect as a grab, and the shield buttons both can be used for air dodging and tether recoveries as well (R + A as well or L + A). The Z button just isn't for grabbing, it acts as an attack button, a grab button, and a shield button. That's why you can charge DACUS's and attack and air dodge all with the Z button. It exists in normal Brawl as well and in the past games.

 

[alvicala]

The Z button acts as several different buttons, not just grabbing. If you press R and A you get the same effect as a grab, and the shield buttons both can be used for air dodging and tether recoveries as well (R + A as well or L + A). The Z button just isn't for grabbing, it acts as an attack button, a grab button, and a shield button. That's why you can charge DACUS's and attack and air dodge all with the Z button. It exists in normal Brawl as well and in the past games.

Yeah, I expected something like that . What I really want to know are these two things:
1. Is there anyway to solve that?
2. If there isnt, how do you actually do to totally avoid using an airdodge when trying to do a grab while in the air? There must be a way to make SURE you will use a grab.

 

[GHNeko]

10customcontrols

That would be your best bet.


Or you can set C-Stick to grab

 

[Iamthemovie]

Some Bowser Giga matches
this is Brawl+

Dude, code. Now.

That's so awesome. I know that there's also a Giga Bowser texture for regular Bowser somewhere out there.

 

[storm92]

Yeah, I expected something like that . What I really want to know are these two things:
1. Is there anyway to solve that?
2. If there isnt, how do you actually do to totally avoid using an airdodge when trying to do a grab while in the air? There must be a way to make SURE you will use a grab.

I've had the same problem, but I'm pretty sure it only ADs when you're in a tumble.
I may be wrong though.

 

[Team Giza]

Thank you for the information, I'm less scared now. I mean, I'm ALL FOR BRAWL+, but I also really want it to be a good game. Sometimes it feels like it's slipping, in the sense we feel like God and balance EVERYTHING. I mean, there should still be certain matchups and certain moves that are better than other and some characters doing better than others but still having counterpicks. If the game is PERFECTLY balanced, it's boring. I mean, if every matchup was 50:50 and all the moves were equally good, that would suck big time.

No way every match up could be 50/50 unless all the characters were the same. If somehow it was possible otherwise that would be great. I think its important to pay attention to how we are balancing the characters thus far. There are a few people who want to balance things out by making KOs more equal and stuff like that but so far that hasn't been the majority of the balances requested and have not been the ones made. A lot of the balance made so far increase diversity and make the characters more unique then they were before. I am much happier with the game after these balances because it has made the game feel very different depending on which character I choose.

 

[Almas]

Hitbox Data Collection
C2744A3C 0000001C
3C008180 80FC0028
81070008 8108FFFC
7C080000 40800098
81080030 80DE0020
5106C00E 801E0000
5006821E 801E0018
5006442E 80E7007C
80E70038 813E0030
5127C0CE 801E0014
50076226 390204CC
85480014 81680004
7D405B79 4082002C
90C80000 90E80004
54C0402E 50E046FE
90080008 54E02116
9008000C 3800FFFF
90080010 48000050
7C0A3000 4082FFC4
7C0B3800 4082FFBC
88080008 90030004
88080009 9003001C
8808000A 90030024
8808000B 500906FE
91230034 A008000C
90030018 80080010
2C00FFFF 41820008
90030038 7F83E378
60000000 00000000

Character ID Fix
C28152E4 00000002
819E003C 907EFFFC
60000000 00000000

Memory Clearer
205BA488 00000040
025A9400 05FF0000
E0000000 80008000

I didn't like the method of gathering hitbox data that was originally available, so I modified spunit's hitbox code to suit my purposes. This makes it easier for Gecko users without significant (any) coding knowledge to gather data.

Launch the game with only these codes active.

At the address 805A9800, you will find data for every move you perform. The data is presented identically as to if you had entered it as a move to modify (but the move will retain it's default settings). This is useful for moves with multiple hitboxes - you can perform the move once, then modify each hitbox individually by poking the value to find where and when each one comes out.

For example, if I were to perform Sheik's Fair (which, fortunately, has only one hitbox), at 805A9800, I would find:

0E096C00 0001E033
096C0000 001E0000
FFFFFFFFF

I could then poke the 096C0000 to FF6C0000 to increase the damage to 255 (for lulz).

After you're done with a move, press L once (on controller port 1) to instantly wipe the region of data.

Hopefully this will lessen the burden of data gathering on me.

 

[kupo15]

Excellent! I am going to add this link to my first post

 

[alvicala]

ONOEZ!!!!!!!!!!one

Its p-p-p-p-aaaaaaaaaage...

666!!!

Thanks god I dont believe in god. wait, wuh?

http://stacksmash.cultnet.net/?p=3126 -> Weegee is sure happy today.

edit: default setting ftw. 15 post per page to understand.

 

[GHNeko]

ONOEZ!!!!!!!!!!one

Its p-p-p-p-aaaaaaaaaage...

666!!!

Thanks god I dont believe in god. wait, wuh?

http://stacksmash.cultnet.net/?p=3126 -> Weegee is sure happy today.

lolwut. I'm on page 250.

 

[TommyDerMeister]

It depends on the way you have your threads displayed: How many posts you see per page.

I'm on page 666. I think the default number of posts per page is 15.

 

[Kink-Link5]

I just got to thinking about how we could have codes that, rather than making Brawl physics more akin to Melee's or Smash 64's, they would take what Brawl does have and improves it.

First thing that came to mind was increase the frames in a roll dodge from which you can glide toss. This could potentially give many more characters glide tosses that don't have any as of now. (Lucario)

Also Crouch Cancling.

...

:C

 

[GHNeko]

First thing that came to mind was increase the frames in a roll dodge from which you can glide toss. This could potentially give many more characters glide tosses that don't have any as of now. (Lucario)

Actually. This sounds like a good idea.


EDIT: Wrong quote.

 

[PanzerOceania]

Actually. This sounds like a good idea.

yes it does sound like a good idea *stamp of approval*

 

[wazgood]

posting on page 666 kthx

 

[goodoldganon]

posting on page 666 kthx

Same lol *high fives*

 

[GHNeko]

Eff default setting. Page 250 ftw.

What codes should we be working on now? Weren't we trying to fix that weird with with Falcon's up B which screws his horizontal momentum when he reaches the climax of his up B?

 

[kupo15]

Eff default setting. Page 250 ftw.

What codes should we be working on now? Weren't we trying to fix that weird with with Falcon's up B which screws his horizontal momentum when he reaches the climax of his up B?

Yes. All momentum based recoveries should be gone. Falcon is apparent but I'm not sure who else this affects.

 

[goodoldganon]

Yes. All momentum based recoveries should be gone. Falcon is apparent but I'm not sure who else this affects.

Bowser, Ganondorf, Falcon are the ones I know for sure. Snakes Cypher takes longer to go up if he has lots of downward momentum as well.

 

[CountKaiser]

Speaking of fixing recoveries, could we get a code that gives Pit's Up-B back if he is hit out of it?

Honestly, it makes no sense that he is the only character who can't do up-b after getting hit.

Speaking of which, how is Pit in Brawl+?

 

[kupo15]

Speaking of fixing recoveries, could we get a code that gives Pit's Up-B back if he is hit out of it?

Honestly, it makes no sense that he is the only character who can't do up-b after getting hit.

Speaking of which, how is Pit in Brawl+?

Pit should get his up b back. Pit is pretty good. Dairs are nice combo moves and such. But what could really help pit out are the tumble codes because without them, his WoP doesn't work very well or anyone for that matter since you can air dodge in tumble.

 

[Shell]

He's still annoying as balls. Really good, really frustrating.

Any advice on playing an arrow-spamming camping Pit / grenade whoring Snake? I find myself getting tired of chasing them around and instead I just spam back from the other side of the stage. Reminds me of vBrawl.

 

[kupo15]

He's still annoying as balls. Really good, really frustrating.

Any advice on playing an arrow-spamming camping Pit / grenade whoring Snake? I find myself getting tired of chasing them around and instead I just spam back from the other side of the stage. Reminds me of vBrawl.

Some suggestions:

Higher gravity
Faster dash speed
PS reflect

 

[cobaltblue]

Speaking of fixing recoveries, could we get a code that gives Pit's Up-B back if he is hit out of it?

Honestly, it makes no sense that he is the only character who can't do up-b after getting hit.

Speaking of which, how is Pit in Brawl+?

But its so fun spring gimping pits....

 

[GHNeko]

Shouldn't Pit's WoI use the same 'fuel' mechanic as ROBs, or does it already? I have no clue.

 

[storm92]

Some suggestions:

Higher gravity
Faster dash speed
PS reflect

Higher grav and faster dash speed sounds great kupo.

 

[Revven]

Wouldn't higher gravity **** with combos and recoveries? (If we changed the upwards gravity).

 

[storm92]

For combos we would just need lower hitstun and recoveries won't be affected too much.

 

[Revven]

But we don't want to get rid of combos that already exist like DK's Cargo Utoss to Uair. I don't think higher gravity is going to solve camping completely, at all. And anyone who camps shouldn't anyway because you gain a lot more from being offensive than being campy.

 

[storm92]

But we don't want to get rid of combos that already exist like DK's Cargo Utoss to Uair. I don't think higher gravity is going to solve camping completely, at all. And anyone who camps shouldn't anyway because you gain a lot more from being offensive than being campy.

Wouldn't that combo still exist as it did with the Salad Tosser combos in Melee?

 

[CountKaiser]

But we don't want to get rid of combos that already exist like DK's Cargo Utoss to Uair. I don't think higher gravity is going to solve camping completely, at all. And anyone who camps shouldn't anyway because you gain a lot more from being offensive than being campy.

But for those who do camp(like Wolf), how do I deal with it?

 

[kupo15]

Wouldn't higher gravity **** with combos and recoveries? (If we changed the upwards gravity).

No it wouldn't screw combos or recoveries. You can adjust jump power, fix launch angles if need be, lower hitstun, and fix the up bs that are affected the same way we did link. Not all recoveries are gravity based. Falcon's ganon's or example are unaffected b gravity.

 

[Revven]

But for those who do camp(like Wolf), how do I deal with it?

Become a smart player, SHAD, PS, spotdodge like a *****, and get inside Wolf. Wolf isn't that great of a camper anymore, he is easy to get around. If you're having problems, you need to get better, that's all.

No it wouldn't screw combos or recoveries. You can adjust jump power, fix launch angles if need be, lower hitstun, and fix the up bs that are affected the same way we did link. Not all recoveries are gravity based. Falcon's ganon's or example are unaffected b gravity.

I seriously think we shouldn't mess with hitstun anymore and gravity. Camping isn't really all that powerful anymore, it's not a problem, seriously. It USED to be, but it really isn't anymore, and if you're having problems you just need to get around it. In vBrawl, it's MUCH worse, and I can agree there were problems then but there shouldn't be anymore, you've got momentum now, SHAD still works, PSing was nerfed but you can still PS projectiles pretty **** well, spotdoding is still really good, and even shielding is still somewhat viable against camping.

Seriously, camping shouldn't be a problem anymore. We shouldn't have to be worrying about it, let's just focus on what needs to be changed NOW instead of worrying about tactics that aren't even going to appear that often in Brawl+ or aren't as powerful anymore. If camping starts becoming a problem after Brawl+ goes gold, we can fix it then, trying to fix it now doesn't do us any good espcially if there isn't that many problems with it atm. I'm all for fixing recoveries like Bowser, Ganondorf, and Falcon but dealing with camping right now and changing mechanics AGAIN just to nerf it more is stupid. Camping is ALWAYS going to be there, it's not stupid broken right now, and shouldn't be. Especially when we FINALLY get damage stale only.

Furthermore, camping in vBrawl is still very possible to get around and if it's possible to get around it in vBrawl, it's possible to get around in Brawl+. You're just doing a terrible job of it if you can't get around it.