COMPETITIVE Brawl+: Code Agenda

[Cowbox]

I could type up long-winded explanations, but I'm tired of doing that on other forums so I'll just keep it brief here.

64 and Melee were both awesome because not only did they work as incredibly fun party games, they were deep and highly competitive. People who just wanted to play casually could go right ahead and do that, whereas people who wanted to analyze everything and make it a sport could accomplish that as well.

Now, evidently Sakurai didn't like how competitive it was. He wanted an environment where everyone had a chance of winning and emphasized the whole thing on his perception of fun. That's fine in my books -- cater to the casual players. There's more casual Wii players than hardcore, anyway. But hell, why did he have to leave out the depth completely? It's like he said "No, no, no, you're doing it wrong. THIS is how you have fun."

You can't just tell someone how to enjoy a game, and that's the vibe that Brawl gives off. We're not altering it because we don't like Brawl, because then we'd just go back to Melee. Brawl+ is a way of saying "We really like Brawl, but we want to play it this way."

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^I don't like brawl, but I do like brawl's characters lol.

 

[Shell]

I think we've more than answered Sky`'s questions (accusations?), so let's turn this back into a Code Agenda thread as it should be.

 

[Cowbox]

Yeah, sorry about that. I knew it was answered but couldn't help but throw in my two (pointless) cents.

 

[kupo15]

I think we've more than answered Sky`'s questions (accusations?), so let's turn this back into a Code Agenda thread as it should be.

Yea. I wish he would have used the FAQ thread, because that is what its there for

 

[peachfvl]

so the buffer = handicap code works?

also with the snapshot hacking how many code lines can i have?

 

[kupo15]

so the buffer = handicap code works?

also with the snapshot hacking how many code lines can i have?

You can have 12000 lines with one snapshot

 

[goodoldganon]

I just wanted to point out that you can make anything competitive and when I mean anything, I mean that counting the clouds can be very competitive but I'm sure you would agree that the competitive value in counting clouds doesn't match that of rock, paper, scissors. Furthermore, I could take the game of rock, paper, scissors and compare that to my new game, the sequel called rock, paper, scissors, llama. The llama beats the other three options all the time and a roll of the dice determines the winner in a llama tie. Would you argue that the sequel is more competitive than the original and would you be content in playing the sequel with its competitive value instead of changing the rules a little bit to make it more competitive? This is how we view it. We don't doubt that Brawl is a competitive game but that brawl+ has more competitive value than vbrawl and its because we are adding back the mechanics taken out that made this game work competitively in the first place.

I challenge you to a game of rock, paper, scissors, llama. I'll woop you any day.

On topic, the handicap = buffer code and no handicap works, it just makes you crouch after fastfalls.

 

[Shadic]

Sky can you stop posting in the centered formatting. I want to read your posts, but its honestly way too distracting to try and read paragraphs that way.

Also, tiny "stylish" font blows. Just saying.

And is the "Give Double jump back when grabbed" code for grab releases, or have I just not realized that you don't get your second jump when thrown?

 

[goodoldganon]

Also, tiny "stylish" font blows. Just saying.

And is the "Give Double jump back when grabbed" code for grab releases, or have I just not realized that you don't get your second jump when thrown?

You don't get your second jump back when grab released. This is most noticeable with Snake. As Snake is recovering is someone grabs him and lets him break the grab, he falls to his doom. Unable to jump or Up-B.

 

[kupo15]

Also, tiny "stylish" font blows. Just saying.

And is the "Give Double jump back when grabbed" code for grab releases, or have I just not realized that you don't get your second jump when thrown?

This only happens when you are grabbed in such a way that you don't touch the ground. If any character is snatched over the ledge and actually thrown (not just released gog) then you don't have your second jump. If falcon grabs wario or any other small person, same with marth and is thrown and doesn't touch the ground, then they won't get their jump back. And yoshi anyone won't get their jump back because you are in his mouth. What a terrible exploit

 

[MK26]

You can have 12000 lines with one snapshot

12000 to reach the size of your average snapshot (100 kb). I have no idea how much data it would take to fill a snapshot, but you can rest assured that we'll have a hard time reaching 1000 lines, let alone 12000

 

[Sanu]

Crap

Your posts are annoying as ****. Too ugly; didn't read. No one cares about your opinions, this project isn't going to stop because you dislike the ideas being conceptualized and implemented herein.

 

[CloneHat]

Your posts are annoying as ****. Too ugly; didn't read. No one cares about your opinions, this project isn't going to stop because you dislike the ideas being conceptualized and implemented herein.

IGNORE HIM

Continue making codes.
Oh yah, after using the buffer=handicap code at 40% (4 frames, lower than I usually use), my character seemed to respond like there was 15 frames of buffer or something. Maybe it's just me, though.

 

[shanus]

So things we need:

-Hitbox code which affects throws and projectiles
-Meteor Cancel Modifier
-Updated handicap bfufer code (still works awesome as is)
-Cstick doesnt do tilts code

am i missing anything?

 

[CloneHat]

So things we need:

-Hitbox code which affects throws and projectiles
-Meteor Cancel Modifier
-Updated handicap bfufer code (still works awesome as is)
-Cstick doesnt do tilts code

am i missing anything?

Can we make it so UP doesn't make characters with multi jumps jump? It's annoying.

 

[storm92]

FF neutral specials?
Or is that most likely not getting in the official list?

 

[Shell]

Sorry to beat a dead and decaying horse...

-Fix Ganon's techable choke
If we don't want to (or can't) do this, we should compensate for the loss of automatic d-tilt setups / ftilt kills

-Fix Sonic's SDJ momentum

Pretty please with sugar on top.

 

[CloneHat]

Yes, Ganon's choke is pretty much useless now, all the lag only results in 9%.
I like it as a combo starter.

 

[kupo15]

How about damage decay only? And how about mapping SDI to the cstick?

I'll add the others to the OP

 

[shanus]

oh yeah, those too. Always forget those.

 

[Shell]

It's not useless, it's just that mindgaming (~1/3 prediction rate) your way into another grab, choke, or maybe dash attack <<< 100% guaranteed d-tilt to **** Arial Combo of Death (TM) or push-kick to kill / edgeguard.

A huge chunk of Ganon's game is just playing semi-defensively until you figure out a way to get your hands on the opponent and then get them in the air to deal massive damage. Taking away a reliable way to do this is a problem, to say the least. But I'm sure the BR has heard goodoldganon talk about this already so I'll just leave it at this.

 

[Greenpoe]

Somebody posted a long time ago that there should be separate inputs for power shielding and regular shielding. Is a code like this possible? Like if you tap shield (2 frames or less, since that's the powershield window is) you can powershield, but if you hold it, you cannot...or R=powershield button (You can powershield, but you can only hold it for 2 frames), L=regular shield button (no powershielding, hold as normal)?

 

[kupo15]

Somebody posted a long time ago that there should be separate inputs for power shielding and regular shielding. Is a code like this possible? Like if you tap shield (2 frames or less, since that's the powershield window is) you can powershield, but if you hold it, you cannot...or R=powershield button (You can powershield, but you can only hold it for 2 frames), L=regular shield button (no powershielding, hold as normal)?

I'd rather see this for footstooling first

 

[GPDP]

Guys, Ganon's choke most likely won't be techable in the final tech code. All we're waiting for is for spunit or PW to fix it so it works in the ground.

 

[kupo15]

You currently can tech the air move as well. And is it sonics down b that is the problem?

Also, no auto sweetspotting when your up b hits something

 

[Shell]

Yes, according to my friend. It removes the ability to combo out of it.

 

[kupo15]

I also added ledge teching as well

 

[Team Giza]

Don't dry with fakes or fears​

Please don't read this, and instantly get mad. I'm not coming in here to insult, but to gather information for future use.

Kay.​

Don't you guys think that you're being the epitome of Arrogant, when you come into a game, decide it's not good enough for competitive play, and change it declaring that you essentially 'are playing the better game'? And declaring things like Brawl + 'is the way that brawl was supposed to be made'?

I don't agree with people declaring this is the way Brawl was supposed to be made. But I will say its how I like it to be and that its a funner game to me and to many others. I would have been much happier if Brawl was like Brawl+ on release (also with some better item balance). I don't think its arrogant to say this.​

Like... you took a game with top level professional designers and what not that get paid millions of dollars to produce a video game... and it's like the Makers of Brawl + are having the audacity to say that they did a better job in the physics of Brawl than Sakurai did...? You... don't see anything wrong with that?

I do think the end result of Brawl+'s system is better than normal Brawl. However none of this would have been possible if it wasn't for the work they did in the first place. Many aspects of normal Brawl were great but lets face it the team who made it isn't very familiar with the competitive smash scene. They didn't have as good of a grasp over some of the game mechanics as we do (yourself included). They also seem to have had a poor grasp over fighting games in general which is why many aspects of the game are lacking including a system that limits character diversity. Its not that I don't respect a lot of the work they did on brawl, I just wish they got some people who were more familiar with fighting games involved with the project. It seems like many of the changes made to brawl's gameplay were made to make the single player work more fluidly without much thought on what it would do to the multiplayer mode. I see this project as a way to put back in some qualities to make the multiplayer mode a bit better for my tastes.​

Furthermore, to continue my rant, I'll quote this from Smk: "The MAIN goal of the project is to make Brawl what makes Smash a competitive game." I don't know if you've went outside, but Brawl is a competitive game. Your definition of competitive is askew if you don't think so. Maybe you should amend that sentence, and change it to; "To make Brawl obtain more depth than it currently has", because your current goal for Brawl + is... somewhat elitist.

Yes, the correct usage would have been to make Brawl have more depth and hopefully better character diversity and balance. Though a lot of people would often say that a game with more depth is more competitive. The statement is untrue, but its a common mistake I wouldn't say that its elitist.​

And my last thing that I wanna say, is... I constantly hear about new updates to Brawl +, and that it's not finished... and it might not ever be.

Brawl+ hasn't been out of beta release. So its not finished in that sense. The plan is to get a version out there and continue to have a few character balancing updates come afterward but these updates won't continue for more than a few months. That was my understanding of it at least.​

Let me just revert back in my confusion for a quick moment, and reiterate that saying that you know the metagame more so than the ones who created the game in the first place seems to be out of place.

Most game designers don't look too far into how the game will develop when put under competitive situations. It is actually very rare when they do pay attention to it. I know many people getting into game design and only a few of them pay any attention to the idea of their games being played competitively and how it could negatively effect their ideas. Those that do pay attention to this are usually people who are obsessive with fighting games.

I find it odd that you think the people who made the game are somehow more knowledgeable then those who have played and studied the concepts for a long period of time on how to play effectively. I've made games before and when I gave it to some of my friends they managed to know more about playing the game and how to improve it then I did when they only had been playing the game for about a month. I don't think its that unreasonable to say that the combine knowledge of many people within the competitive community after over a year of playing the game surpass the knowledge held by the rushing original developers at the time the game went gold. Plus many of these people have additional knowledge of the game from playing previous installments competitively and most likely looked into those games much more in depth than the developers of brawl. This also can helps make the competitive players understanding the game style of the series as a whole better than those who developed it.​

How is this game getting a huge fanbase if it's constantly changing? Like, do these changes change the tier lists/metagames? I'm confused as to how a game that's constantly being 'updated' can be put into a tournament situation, you know?

Guilty Gear does this quite a bit and its very popular. But either way, eventually we are going to have a finished project with no more characters balances. There might be something extra that may be done but we are still looking into if that's possible.​

These are just my thoughts. Though there was a disclaimer at the top, I'm fully prepared to get flamed, and be etched as a Brawl + Hater, even though it's not true. =/

You word it a bit rude. But its okay. I have the same problem when dealing with religious folk.​

However if you do flame, I'm fully aware of why you do.

Well hopefully I can help you understand the purpose behind the project a bit better. If you are actually trying to learn you shouldn't be so aggressive especially since this doesn't concern you in anyway.

You can always PM me or IM me if you want to discuss this more. By the way, my drill is the drill that pierces the heaven!​

'Cause you will hate yourself in the end​

 

[VietGeek]

You currently can tech the air move as well. And is it sonics down b that is the problem?

You can also tech footstools with the 0.4 teching code (the longer one that you mislabeled as 0.5 on the front page). IDK if that's a problem or not though, lol.

Also for the Unlimited Replays I believe brkirch made them.

Finally, I thought DI-able lasers was removed so you couldn't just run away and camp more effectively than you already can with the two. Or something like that. How people simply described it in Melee was that Temple + Fox = Fox always wins.

Of course Temple is not a neutral or CP. But still, I just have to ask.

 

[abcool]

You can also tech footstools with the 0.4 teching code (the longer one that you mislabeled as 0.5 on the front page). IDK if that's a problem or not though, lol.

Also for the Unlimited Replays I believe brkirch made them.

Finally, I thought DI-able lasers was removed so you couldn't just run away and camp more effectively than you already can with the two. Or something like that. How people simply described it in Melee was that Temple + Fox = Fox always wins.

Of course Temple is not a neutral or CP. But still, I just have to ask.

I asked for the code to be made because fox in brawl+ is lacking in spacing and overall being a fun moblie character. on the issue of camping...that seems to be irrelevent seeing as brawl..has the most smallest stages of all the smash games. overall it helps fox more than hurt seeing as he already got caps on his lasers anyway the spacing is needed and camping is more or less harder. edit: also it helps fox/falco to control there trajectory during retreat lasers it's to easy to jump off the stage when retreating(because of momentum). we all know how easy it is to **** the spacies recovery

 

[shanus]

did you just say fox is lacking in fun and spacing?

 

[abcool]

did you just say fox is lacking in fun and spacing?

to me he is...maybe ya playstyle fits into the brawl+ fox but he is boring to me falco is better....that is sad. i saw ya vid of fox shanus, but my melee fox is still way sexier imo

 

[VietGeek]

to me he is...maybe ya playstyle fits into the brawl+ fox but he is boring to me falco is better....that is sad. i saw ya vid of fox shanus, but my melee fox is still way sexier imo

I don't think this project is Melee 2.0 anymore. <_<

Fox/Falco can still do retreating laser with running back then doing B-reversal. Done correctly the second laser will be lagless and you can continue doing this. How this is done is actually harder than in Melee lol.

If DI-able lasers was added, this would basically be camping EAZY MODE. And, while I'm not sure what 'balancing mentality flavor' is currently in the mind of the B+ group, but they seem to only want to buff characters as necessary last I checked.

Adding this buffs two characters that are already candidates for top echelon due to hitstun, ALC, etc. This buff isn't necessary and more time should be put into characters that require it.

Fox and Falco already do a good job of camping, forcing a character like Marth to approach, then punish him and get a load of % off then gimp or kill him. Adding this would only make that easier and more effective.

Basically it's really unnecessary imo. But that's just me.

 

[Toadster5]

to me he is...maybe ya playstyle fits into the brawl+ fox but he is boring to me falco is better....that is sad. i saw ya vid of fox shanus, but my melee fox is still way sexier imo

I don't think Brawl+ (or any other future Smash) will ever have the "sexiness" of Melee.

 

[abcool]

I don't think this project is Melee 2.0 anymore. <_<

Fox/Falco can still do retreating laser with running back then doing B-reversal. Done correctly the second laser will be lagless and you can continue doing this. How this is done is actually harder than in Melee lol.

If DI-able lasers was added, this would basically be camping EAZY MODE. And, while I'm not sure what 'balancing mentality flavor' is currently in the mind of the B+ group, but they seem to only want to buff characters as necessary last I checked.

Adding this buffs two characters that are already candidates for top echelon due to hitstun, ALC, etc. This buff isn't necessary and more time should be put into characters that require it.

Fox and Falco already do a good job of camping, forcing a character like Marth to approach, then punish him and get a load of % off then gimp or kill him. Adding this would only make that easier and more effective.

Basically it's really unnecessary imo. But that's just me.

Idk if you read anything i typed..again. with momentum added the retreat laser game is garbage. now you can run on about buffs all night but the already good jiggs got her old rest back. falcon has been buffed from head to toe. fox was my main from n64 time yea back in 2000, so i stretch this again..just like in melee only m2k and a few others used di with projectiles effectively..not everyone is going to add it to there metagame. if fact half of the brawl+ community didn't even know what i was talking about. anyway it's an option for ppl that wanna use it. stop making it look like i taking melee fox and putting him in brawl...you think it isn't needed because i doubt you play as fox for a for long period of time, his most effect tool is dair and utilt...boooorrriinnnggggg. lasrers effectivenes limted to ground usage booooorrriiinng. anyway if you ppl find it broken(which most of you will illusion of the stage anyway) then remove it.

 

[kupo15]

I wouldn't say falcon has been buffed from head to toe. That award goes to Bowser. Fox is supposed to be the best camper in the game so why change it? I see no reason not to give him DIable lasers

 

[abcool]

I wouldn't say falcon has been buffed from head to toe. That award goes to Bowser. Fox is supposed to be the best camper in the game so why change it? I see no reason not to give him DIable lasers

Dont forget to mention the risk/reward from using it(watch m2k vs mango) it is easier said than done lol

 

[VietGeek]

Idk if you read anything i typed..again. with momentum added the retreat laser game is garbage.

And it's 'garbage' because you might run off the stage while doing it? Then don't run off the stage; learn where the momentum takes you?

now you can run on about buffs all night but the already good jiggs got her old rest back.

Codes or it didn't happen.

falcon has been buffed from head to toe.

Aside from priority issues, his move mechanics did not have significant changes from Melee to Brawl, so adding global hitstun really just made him more usable.

just like in melee only m2k and a few others used di with projectiles effectively..not everyone is going to add it to there metagame.

People will add it to their "metagame" (pretty sure we're not using the word right here) if it's effective. Almost all intermediate and high-level Melee Foxes used some form of retreating laser(s). There are more Foxes than just M2K/KDJ/Ken/PC Chris/Chillin, etc.

anyway it's an option for ppl that wanna use it.

At this point it's best to create a standardized codeset. More codes that are on the fence won't help achieve that cause. But I'm fine on whether or not anyone makes the code.

So...let's see...

The reason you want this is -

1. Brawl+ Fox is 'boring' to you.
2. Momentum makes it harder to retreat
3. Brawl+ Fox is 'boring' to you.

The rest of this wall is about apparently most people sucking at Fox and only a select few could retreat lasers, why one remark about Melee makes you think I am calling you out (lol defensive), and assuming I can imply why Fox's retreat game is garbage prior to this post BECAUSE I CAN LEIK TOTALLY READ UR MINDZ AND KNOW WHEN YOU EDIT YOUR POSTS.

you think it isn't needed because i doubt you play as fox for a for long period of time.

And this is why I am asking. You have given me two reasons so far. I believe you are also the only Fox user at the moment to request this in particular. I have no problem with the actual request, I need reasons though.

I feel it may unnecessarily make good characters better. This is a project to make Brawl "more competitive" (and I use this loosely). The "fun" comes from balancing out the game and adding mechanics where necessary. It doesn't matter if it's 'hard', if it's good people will learn it, apply, w/e. How difficult it is to do something should not be justification to add something since it's humanly possible in the first place.

So if there's more reasons you would like to give please do. And don't make me have to make assumptions, be clear. Otherwise I'm going to have to flamebait you or something to get the information I need to even make this coherent in my mind (and I don't have time for Internet drama over something silly as this so let's communicate clearly and keep this civil).

 

[Shadic]

Codes or it didn't happen..

New Plussery 4.0 beta.

And Jigglypuff got a rest buff because the move had no purpose in Brawl+ At how high of damage you needed, you should have been able to WOP them off the stage ten times over.